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Pre-Adam
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roxy



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 11:43 am    Post subject: Re: Pre-Adam and subsequent emails Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
roxy wrote:
Creation of Allah - No Allah did not create anything with his word.
---------------------------
You can see there are millions and millions of birth taking place each day - not just human beings, but animals, birds, insects, mud, stone, computers, airoplanes, shoes, snakes, fish, monkeys, lions, tigers, elephants, hundreds of types of insects and what not - and there are just 24 hours in a day - do you think Allah has the time for giving his word to each and every creation ? I do not think so and as far as I am concerned creation is by though and by his will and not by word - more so, since God is one and there are millions of each creation per day and physically God just cannot create millions of things per day in a physical sense by speaking. To add to this creation is at differen places in the world - so do you think god must be doing a lot of running around the world saying BE, BE, BE, .... or he must be saying "BE" an animal in India at so and so place, "BE" a human being in USA at so and so place, "BE" a fish in the water at so and so place - "BE" an egg in Europe at so and so place. How can only BE be sufficient. So here only BE is not sufficient - BE but what BE ?



Roxy
When we live in time and space and try to understand that which is above all else with our limited Human Intellect which is itself a creation of Allah, this type of post is what results.

The concept of a limited human intellect being able to understanding God is inherently flawed.
Our entire existance is contingent upon him and He is completely independent of all else.

He is above and beyond our highest evolved thought. Al- Muta'ali is one of the Names of Allah. Along with As-Samad and Al-Ahad.

We have lived our entire lives in the realm of time, Eternity is a concept we cannot even fathom.

The humility required in this search comes as you progress in it and eventually realize that you are so insignificant against his Vastness that you give up your Identity in the process and become fana (annihilated).

"Mai aur tu ki doori cchor, Ek dekh kuch do nahin
Aisa samaj fana ho usme, tu nahi to woh sahi hai.

Think of a bubble floating in the air. What comparision is the air inside it to the rest of the atmosphere.
The bubble cannot even fathom the vastness of the atmosphere of this earth.
Now, when the bubble bursts it becomes one with the atmosphere. The only thing between its identity and the Vast Air around it was it's identity itself.
This example is a MINISCULE one compared to the vastness of Allah and our limited selves.

I believe the search to be to recognize the self and discover that our identity is in fact nothing but a spiritual delusion. (A false belief that we exist as seperate from Allah)

The waves in the Ocean may think themselves to be seperate from the ocean and argue with each other on the Forums of Ismaili.net but they were never, are not and never will be seperated from the Vast Limitless Ocean of Allah.

So let us progress towards discovering self instead of trying to Understand Him, Who defies Human understanding as he is above and beyond the Human Imagination.


Please answer to the point and do not divert from the subject matter. Further, please do not bring the ginans into the picture because ginan is a different subject and further the ginan you quote does not pertain to "BE".

I am repeating my posting (which was a reply to your posting):

You had earlier mentioned:

036.082
YUSUFALI: Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, "be", and it is!
PICKTHAL: But His command, when He intendeth a thing, is only that He saith unto it: Be! and it is.
SHAKIR: His command, when He intends anything, is only to say to it: Be, so it is.

Are you still going to insist that creation was not from one word?

I gave you my reply:

Creation of Allah - No Allah did not create anything with his word.
---------------------------
You can see there are millions and millions of birth taking place each day - not just human beings, but animals, birds, insects, mud, stone, computers, airoplanes, shoes, snakes, fish, monkeys, lions, tigers, elephants, hundreds of types of insects and what not - and there are just 24 hours in a day - do you think Allah has the time for giving his word to each and every creation ? I do not think so and as far as I am concerned creation is by though and by his will and not by word - more so, since God is one and there are millions of each creation per day and physically God just cannot create millions of things per day in a physical sense by speaking. To add to this creation is at differen places in the world - so do you think god must be doing a lot of running around the world saying BE, BE, BE, .... or he must be saying "BE" an animal in India at so and so place, "BE" a human being in USA at so and so place, "BE" a fish in the water at so and so place - "BE" an egg in Europe at so and so place. How can only BE be sufficient. So here only BE is not sufficient - BE but what BE ?
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 5:31 am    Post subject: Be Reply with quote

I think you are taking "Be" literally.

I think the reference is to the fact that all of Creation is from Farman. and if we are to "uncreate", to go back to where we came from, then the path is through the Farman of the Creator i.e. Imame Mubeen.
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roxy



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 6:38 am    Post subject: Re: Be Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
I think you are taking "Be" literally.

I think the reference is to the fact that all of Creation is from Farman. and if we are to "uncreate", to go back to where we came from, then the path is through the Farman of the Creator i.e. Imame Mubeen.


-- Once again instead of replying to the point you are diverting to nowhere -

Earlier in one of your posting you talked in the air :

Olive = (needs more reflection but Hazir Imam sure likes to eat them a lot)

- you know the reply you got to this.

I have already demonstrated and proved that the "BE" you mentioned is not sufficient for creation - nor does hazar imam says BE BE BE BE all the time you know - so there is no basis to what you mention ? The matter is thus settled by reasoning. For record purpose I am reproducing the posting :


You had earlier mentioned:

036.082
YUSUFALI: Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, "be", and it is!
PICKTHAL: But His command, when He intendeth a thing, is only that He saith unto it: Be! and it is.
SHAKIR: His command, when He intends anything, is only to say to it: Be, so it is.

Are you still going to insist that creation was not from one word?

I gave you my reply:

Creation of Allah - No Allah did not create anything with his word.
---------------------------
You can see there are millions and millions of birth taking place each day - not just human beings, but animals, birds, insects, mud, stone, computers, airoplanes, shoes, snakes, fish, monkeys, lions, tigers, elephants, hundreds of types of insects and what not - and there are just 24 hours in a day - do you think Allah has the time for giving his word to each and every creation ? I do not think so and as far as I am concerned creation is by though and by his will and not by word - more so, since God is one and there are millions of each creation per day and physically God just cannot create millions of things per day in a physical sense by speaking. To add to this creation is at differen places in the world - so do you think god must be doing a lot of running around the world saying BE, BE, BE, .... or he must be saying "BE" an animal in India at so and so place, "BE" a human being in USA at so and so place, "BE" a fish in the water at so and so place - "BE" an egg in Europe at so and so place. How can only BE be sufficient. So here only BE is not sufficient - BE but what BE ?
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply to guest Reply with quote

Guest I want to give you reference of the Farmans quoted by Shamsu earlier which you say it rumour
Farman of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah
1 Momin ki rooh hamari rooh hai.
2 zahiran insaan ka jisam na pak hota hai laikn rooh napaak nahi hoti.
Name of book is ROOHANI RAAZ
you call every one to read books.First of all you also start reading books and it is not neccesary that the Farman which you not know is rumour.ok
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 8:19 pm    Post subject: BE Reply with quote

Ya Aly Madad roxy,

For you the word of the creator "BE" may not be sufficient.

Let me tell you what the word of the creator is for me.

It is my

"ALL"


To you your belief, to me mine.

I pray with all my heart that My Mowla bless you with Tidal waves of Roohani Ishk that annihilate you, your views, your thoughts, your opinions, your mind, your heart, and whatever else is left.

055.026
YUSUFALI: All that is on earth will perish:
PICKTHAL: Everyone that is thereon will pass away;
SHAKIR: Everyone on it must pass away.

055.027
YUSUFALI: But will abide (for ever) the Face of thy Lord,- full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour.
PICKTHAL: There remaineth but the Countenance of thy Lord of Might and Glory.
SHAKIR: And there will endure for ever the person of your Lord, the Lord of glory and honor.


"Isme Azam amaro assal swaroop cche"

"Isme Azam amaro assal nu NOOR cche"

What is Isme Azam if not the word of Imam.

Think, Reflect, Analyze, Internalize then Actualize.

Ya Aly Madad.
Shamsuddin
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roxy



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply to guest Reply with quote

star_munir wrote:
Guest I want to give you reference of the Farmans quoted by Shamsu earlier which you say it rumour
Farman of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah
1 Momin ki rooh hamari rooh hai.
2 zahiran insaan ka jisam na pak hota hai laikn rooh napaak nahi hoti.
Name of book is ROOHANI RAAZ
you call every one to read books.First of all you also start reading books and it is not neccesary that the Farman which you not know is rumour.ok


Please quote my posting reference star_munir and then say what you want to say. The farman you are refering to - in fact just discussed here or some other forum about that bhut parast - makes thing clear and mention about rooh being the Noor. So your no.1 and no.2 "rooh" refers to Noor. I had gone through the postings and If i remember right - shamsu was terming rooh = soul and not noor. If i remember right Shamsu was mentioning soul cannot get corrupt and then he himself came up with a ginan and later admitted that soul does get corrupt and that is that.

Shamsu did not term rooh as a noor - which the farman makes it clear but he went on terming rooh as soul - do you think this is proper star_munir, more so, since sultan mohd shah mentioned that it is noor.

On the other hand - shamsu in some of the forum/s has been refering "farman" as "noor" = you know everyone farmans (says) one way or another and in their farman (saying) it is possible sometimes very wrong and improper words are used = so farman cannot be a noor because noor is pure - but it appears shamsu is bent on saying it is a noor.

So why say things without proper basis inasmuch as things have been made very clear by way of sultan mohd shah farman about bhut parast that rooh = His noor? Do I hear you now saying that Soul is Noor ???? Go head - let us have clean discussion.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2003 6:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply to guest Reply with quote

roxy wrote:
I had gone through the postings and If i remember right - shamsu was terming rooh = soul and not noor. If i remember right Shamsu was mentioning soul cannot get corrupt and then he himself came up with a ginan and later admitted that soul does get corrupt and that is that.

Shamsu did not term rooh as a noor - which the farman makes it clear but he went on terming rooh as soul - do you think this is proper star_munir, more so, since sultan mohd shah mentioned that it is noor.

On the other hand - shamsu in some of the forum/s has been refering "farman" as "noor" = you know everyone farmans (says) one way or another and in their farman (saying) it is possible sometimes very wrong and improper words are used = so farman cannot be a noor because noor is pure - but it appears shamsu is bent on saying it is a noor.

So why say things without proper basis inasmuch as things have been made very clear by way of sultan mohd shah farman about bhut parast that rooh = His noor? Do I hear you now saying that Soul is Noor ???? Go head - let us have clean discussion.


Ya Aly Madad,
How would you understand "Rooh"

The word Rooh means multiple things in Arabic.
Rooh can be Soul
Rooh can be Spirit
Rooh can mean Essence
Rooh can mean life force.
Rooh can be used in a different context for example " Ramzan ke jane se party ka rooh nikal gaya"

It is important to understand the context in which the word is used.

No one definition mutually excludes another.
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roxy



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2003 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply to guest Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
roxy wrote:
I had gone through the postings and If i remember right - shamsu was terming rooh = soul and not noor. If i remember right Shamsu was mentioning soul cannot get corrupt and then he himself came up with a ginan and later admitted that soul does get corrupt and that is that.

Shamsu did not term rooh as a noor - which the farman makes it clear but he went on terming rooh as soul - do you think this is proper star_munir, more so, since sultan mohd shah mentioned that it is noor.

On the other hand - shamsu in some of the forum/s has been refering "farman" as "noor" = you know everyone farmans (says) one way or another and in their farman (saying) it is possible sometimes very wrong and improper words are used = so farman cannot be a noor because noor is pure - but it appears shamsu is bent on saying it is a noor.

So why say things without proper basis inasmuch as things have been made very clear by way of sultan mohd shah farman about bhut parast that rooh = His noor? Do I hear you now saying that Soul is Noor ???? Go head - let us have clean discussion.


Ya Aly Madad,
How would you understand "Rooh"

The word Rooh means multiple things in Arabic.
Rooh can be Soul
Rooh can be Spirit
Rooh can mean Essence
Rooh can mean life force.
Rooh can be used in a different context for example " Ramzan ke jane se party ka rooh nikal gaya"

It is important to understand the context in which the word is used.

No one definition mutually excludes another.


ACCORDING TO YOU ALLAH HAS MADE HUMAN BEINGS FROM:
1) SOUL
2) SPIRIT.
[Your option please]

ACCORDING TO YOU :
1) Soul can be corrupt.
2) Spirit can be corrupt.
[Your option please]
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2003 9:24 am    Post subject: soul v/s spirit Reply with quote

Ya Aly Madad roxy,

in reply to your questions

Quote:
ACCORDING TO YOU ALLAH HAS MADE HUMAN BEINGS FROM:
1) SOUL
2) SPIRIT.
[Your option please]

ACCORDING TO YOU :
1) Soul can be corrupt.
2) Spirit can be corrupt.
[Your option please]



Ans to A] Both

Ans to B] No if each question is asked seperately
But
yes to 1] and no to 2] if they both exist together in one entity like in humans in time and space.

Next question please.

Ya Aly Madad,

Shams
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roxy



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2003 4:27 pm    Post subject: Re: soul v/s spirit Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
Ya Aly Madad roxy,

in reply to your questions

Quote:
ACCORDING TO YOU ALLAH HAS MADE HUMAN BEINGS FROM:
1) SOUL
2) SPIRIT.
[Your option please]

ACCORDING TO YOU :
1) Soul can be corrupt.
2) Spirit can be corrupt.
[Your option please]


Ans to A] Both

Ans to B] No if each question is asked seperately
But
yes to 1] and no to 2] if they both exist together in one entity like in humans in time and space.

Next question please.

Ya Aly Madad,

Shams


ACCORDING TO YOU ALLAH HAS MADE HUMAN BEINGS FROM
Soul and Spirit. You are wrong here because Quran clearly reveals that Allah has made human beings from His soul. Already we have discussed this quoting Quran verses and Mawlana Hazar Imam's Farman taking into account Quran verse.

ACCORDING TO YOU :
Soul and spirit cannot be corrupted if they both exist together in one entity. It is to be noted that in all ordinary humans who are living there is a soul and a spirit - which farman mention that in human there is only soul and no spirit of Allah? So both will exist together in one entity. As per the ismaili tariqah soul can get corrupted - you had produced the ginans in earlier posting somewhere and the spirit is the light of mawlana hazar imam (remember that bhut parast farman) and the noor does not get corrupted.

The point is you agreed here that soul and spirit are two different things.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2003 8:41 pm    Post subject: spirit is what makes intelligent life possible. Reply with quote

Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) [15:29]


Faitha sawwaytuhu wanafakhtu feehi min roohee faqaAAoo lahu sajideena

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."


Here is the context in which this ayat was revealed

25. Assuredly it is thy Lord Who will gather them together: for He is perfect in Wisdom and Knowledge.

26. We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;

27. And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.

28. Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape;

29. "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

30. So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together:

31. Not so Iblis: he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves.

32. ((Allah)) said: "O Iblis! what is your reason for not being among those who prostrated themselves?"

33. (Iblis) said: "I am not one to prostrate myself to man, whom Thou didst create from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape."

34. ((Allah)) said: "Then get thee out from here; for thou art rejected, accursed.

35. "And the curse shall be on thee till the day of Judgment."

36. (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised."

37. ((Allah)) said: "Respite is granted thee

38. "Till the Day of the Time appointed."

39. (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-

40. "Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."

41. ((Allah)) said: "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me.

42. "For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee."

43. And verily, Hell is the promised abode for them all!

44. To it are seven gates: for each of those gates is a (special) class (of sinners) assigned.

45. The righteous (will be) amid gardens and fountains (of clear-flowing water).
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roxy



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2003 4:28 am    Post subject: Re: spirit is what makes intelligent life possible. Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) [15:29]


Faitha sawwaytuhu wanafakhtu feehi min roohee faqaAAoo lahu sajideena

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."


Here is the context in which this ayat was revealed

25. Assuredly it is thy Lord Who will gather them together: for He is perfect in Wisdom and Knowledge.

26. We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;

27. And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.

28. Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape;

29. "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

30. So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together:

31. Not so Iblis: he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves.

32. ((Allah)) said: "O Iblis! what is your reason for not being among those who prostrated themselves?"

33. (Iblis) said: "I am not one to prostrate myself to man, whom Thou didst create from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape."

34. ((Allah)) said: "Then get thee out from here; for thou art rejected, accursed.

35. "And the curse shall be on thee till the day of Judgment."

36. (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised."

37. ((Allah)) said: "Respite is granted thee

38. "Till the Day of the Time appointed."

39. (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-

40. "Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."

41. ((Allah)) said: "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me.

42. "For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee."

43. And verily, Hell is the promised abode for them all!

44. To it are seven gates: for each of those gates is a (special) class (of sinners) assigned.

45. The righteous (will be) amid gardens and fountains (of clear-flowing water).


You are wrong here - God has not created anyone physically. Earlier you mentioned that God created everyone with his word and I proved that this was not so. There is a farman of mawlana hazar imam which mention soul is created and is given a physical form. I also gave a farman of hazar imam quoting the relevant verse of the quran in this regard. For your infomation God is not depended on any other to create a thing and his creation is not physical. In fact he is the First - there was no one except him. Juch as he created heavens and the earth from his own source, he created human being and quran is clear that he created human being from a single soul. He is not depended on others including his own creation for creating human being. Do you mean to say that god has taken a partner to create us such as clay and what not ? Please do not ascribe partners with God vis-a-vis creation - and what kind of partners you are ascribing - clay .... if i continue i might get sick.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 2:16 am    Post subject: Re: Be Reply with quote

roxy wrote:
shamsu wrote:
I think you are taking "Be" literally.

I think the reference is to the fact that all of Creation is from Farman. and if we are to "uncreate", to go back to where we came from, then the path is through the Farman of the Creator i.e. Imame Mubeen.


-- Once again instead of replying to the point you are diverting to nowhere -

Earlier in one of your posting you talked in the air :

Olive = (needs more reflection but Hazir Imam sure likes to eat them a lot)

- you know the reply you got to this.

I have already demonstrated and proved that the "BE" you mentioned is not sufficient for creation - nor does hazar imam says BE BE BE BE all the time you know - so there is no basis to what you mention ? The matter is thus settled by reasoning. For record purpose I am reproducing the posting :


You had earlier mentioned:

036.082
YUSUFALI: Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, "be", and it is!
PICKTHAL: But His command, when He intendeth a thing, is only that He saith unto it: Be! and it is.
SHAKIR: His command, when He intends anything, is only to say to it: Be, so it is.

Are you still going to insist that creation was not from one word?

I gave you my reply:

Creation of Allah - No Allah did not create anything with his word.
---------------------------
You can see there are millions and millions of birth taking place each day - not just human beings, but animals, birds, insects, mud, stone, computers, airoplanes, shoes, snakes, fish, monkeys, lions, tigers, elephants, hundreds of types of insects and what not - and there are just 24 hours in a day - do you think Allah has the time for giving his word to each and every creation ? I do not think so and as far as I am concerned creation is by though and by his will and not by word - more so, since God is one and there are millions of each creation per day and physically God just cannot create millions of things per day in a physical sense by speaking. To add to this creation is at differen places in the world - so do you think god must be doing a lot of running around the world saying BE, BE, BE, .... or he must be saying "BE" an animal in India at so and so place, "BE" a human being in USA at so and so place, "BE" a fish in the water at so and so place - "BE" an egg in Europe at so and so place. How can only BE be sufficient. So here only BE is not sufficient - BE but what BE ?



Here is something from Memoirs of Aga Khan III




There is a fundamental difference between the Jewish idea of creation and that of Islam. The creation according to Islam is not a unique act in a given time but a perpetual and constant event; and God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought. Outside His will, outside His thought, all is nothing, even the things which seem to us absolutely self-evident such as space and time. Allah alone wishes: the Universe exists. [Memoirs]

-- Aga Khan III


Mowla Bapa has said that in each line of his farman there are thousands of meanings. To get only one thousand meanings from this paragraph you will have to re-read it 1000 times. Do you think I am right about this.


How does Imam express his wish?

Answer: In his Farman.

Therefore Imam creates with his Farman.

Hence all creation is Farman of Mowla.

You are a Farman of Mowla.

I am a Farman of Mowla.

Babul Missionary is a Farman of Mowla.

Mowla Aly calls himself The Supreme Kalaam.

"I am the sign of the Most High, I am the Gnosis of Mysteries, I am the Door of the doors, I am the First and the Last. I am the Manifest and the Hidden. I am the creator. I give birth to the world and I destroy it as I wish. I am the face of God, I am the Supreme Kalam." (Mowlana Hazrat Ali, Khubat al-Bayan. From a total of 70 such declarations, partially quoted in H.Corbin "Histoire de la philosophie islamique", Paris 1964, page 77.)
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roxy



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 5:50 am    Post subject: Re: Be Reply with quote

You mention:

Here is something from Memoirs of Aga Khan III

There is a fundamental difference between the Jewish idea of creation and that of Islam. The creation according to Islam is not a unique act in a given time but a perpetual and constant event; and God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought. Outside His will, outside His thought, all is nothing, even the things which seem to us absolutely self-evident such as space and time. Allah alone wishes: the Universe exists. [Memoirs]
-- Aga Khan III

"at every moment by His will and His thought" - so now you agree to what I have been saying earlier.

Then you mention: Mowla Bapa has said that in each line of his farman there are thousands of meanings. To get only one thousand meanings from this paragraph you will have to re-read it 1000 times. Do you think I am right about this.
----------------------
There are thousands of meanings you know. There are thousands and thousands of people and in that there are good people and there are bad people and people take the meaning according to their own character. OK. Thousands of people will say this is the meaning and another thousands will say this is the meaning - OK. You can refer to the relevant farman.

At the same time - sultan mohd shah said what he says is final - because he knows everything. putting your intellect against his intellect is not needed - OK.

Then you mention:
How does Imam express his wish?
Answer: In his Farman.
---- Now from where did you get this idea. Then there should be millions and millions and millions of farmans - hey where are all the millions and millions and millions of farman gone ??? come on start looking for all those farmans - you are good in collecting the farmans - right ? (You may also note the farman I quoted below).

Then you mention: Babul Missionary is a Farman of Mowla.
---------------------
You mean he said BE and there he was - you heard mawla said "BE" right.
So creation is not by will and thought - but by "BE". Without BE his will and thought are of no use - right? He just cannot will or thought unless and until he BE BE BE right ? God's farman has more power than God right? This is what you mean to say.

Shamsu - you agreed quran is the farman - right and you quoted from the Quran and now I am quoting from the Quran which mention Allah's is the whole command and not the Quran.

Al-Rad, or Thunder (XIII)
31) Had it been possible for a Quran to cause the mountains to move, or the earth to be torn as under, or the dead to speak, (this Quran would have done so). Nay, but Allah's is the whole command. ==

So when quran is not the command - then, by will and thought he creates.

No need to say anything in a physical/material sense:

Al-Qamar - 54
49) Verily all things have We created in proportion and measure.
50) And Our command is but a single (Act) like the twinkling of an eye.

I hope this settles the matter - OK.

You also mention:
Mowla Aly calls himself The Supreme Kalaam.
"I am the sign of the Most High, I am the Gnosis of Mysteries, I am the Door of the doors, I am the First and the Last. I am the Manifest and the Hidden. I am the creator. I give birth to the world and I destroy it as I wish. I am the face of God, I am the Supreme Kalam." (Mowlana Hazrat Ali, Khubat al-Bayan. From a total of 70 such declarations, partially quoted in H.Corbin "Histoire de la philosophie islamique", Paris 1964, page 77.)[/quote]
------------------------------
---- the things you quoted - Is this a farman shamsu ? Has mawlana hazar imam authorised this as the farman. You know the date of the farman is missing - you know the farmans have dates.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 5:26 pm    Post subject: Allah expresses his will and thought in his Farman Reply with quote

The KIZ 1,2,3 I sent you have a binocular icon, click on it and type in the word wish and you will see how many times mowla expresses his wishes in his Farman.

There are infinite Farmans. If you want to recognize one, look in the mirror.


I think Allah's word has all of Allah's power behind it and it is as eternal as Allah himself.

The fact is that The name of Allah is itself Allah.

That is the reason why Imam SMS has stated "Isme Azam amaro assal no NOOR cche" in BUK.

This name of Allah is written on your face. Look in the mirror and smile. If you have any knowledge of Arabic or Urdu you should see

a "c" = ain

a "l" = laam

and a small yeh that looks like a "c" the bottom of which is connected to the second arm of a wide "u".

Let me know if you see Aly in your face.

If you do, then you will know for certain that "whatever is, is Ya Aly"

Ya Aly Madad.

Shams
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roxy



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 8:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Allah expresses his will and thought in his Farman Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
The KIZ 1,2,3 I sent you have a binocular icon, click on it and type in the word wish and you will see how many times mowla expresses his wishes in his Farman.

There are infinite Farmans. If you want to recognize one, look in the mirror.


I think Allah's word has all of Allah's power behind it and it is as eternal as Allah himself.

The fact is that The name of Allah is itself Allah.

That is the reason why Imam SMS has stated "Isme Azam amaro assal no NOOR cche" in BUK.

This name of Allah is written on your face. Look in the mirror and smile. If you have any knowledge of Arabic or Urdu you should see

a "c" = ain

a "l" = laam

and a small yeh that looks like a "c" the bottom of which is connected to the second arm of a wide "u".

Let me know if you see Aly in your face.

If you do, then you will know for certain that "whatever is, is Ya Aly"

Ya Aly Madad.

Shams
.
So now from the Quran when everything is made clear you diverted once again and it appears you now mean before he starts a farman he says BE and then the farman starts else it just cannot start? Even the farman has to have his BE before it starts. Where in the farman BE BE BE is there and then the farman starts shamsu ? I think you better check it yourself.
When you are not able to produce a single farman which mention that he has to say a BE BE BE BE to create a thing else it does not get created - why do you keep on continuing and continuing and diverting and diverting?

The fact is there is no BE BE BE and that is that - OK. If you cannot produce a farman with proper reference which mention that he has to say a BE BE BE BE to create a thing else it does not get created and without BE BE BE his thought and will are useless - then what you say does not hold any value.

From here you also jumpted to :-

There are infinite Farmans. If you want to recognize one, look in the mirror.

I just cannot stop laughing shamsu ....

- I think you better keep on jumping -

Shamsu - please send KIZ1,2,3 duly verified. Also the KIM2 and Khangi farmans.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 4:28 am    Post subject: I am not saying this the Quran is. Reply with quote

Ya Aly Madad Roxy,

I am very sorry for giving you the impression that it is I who was stating that Allah creates with his word. The word for example being "BE"

It is in the Quran in multiple places. When you were quoting the Quran so much I presumed you knew this simple fact. I apologize for my error in presuming this.

Here are all the Quranic references I could find.

Here is the link I searched at.

http://www.islamicity.com/ps/default.asp?inc=PhoneticSearch.asp


Al-Baqara (The Cow) [2:117]

BadeeAAu alssamawati waalardi waitha qada amran fainnama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu
To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Al-Imran (The Family of Imran) [3:47]

Qalat rabbi anna yakoonu lee waladun walam yamsasnee basharun qala kathaliki Allahu yakhluqu ma yashao itha qada amran fainnama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu
She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Al-Imran (The Family of Imran) [3:59]

Inna mathala AAeesa AAinda Allahi kamathali adama khalaqahu min turabin thumma qala lahu kun fayakoonu
The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Al-An'am (The Cattle) [6:73]

Wahuwa allathee khalaqa alssamawati waalarda bialhaqqi wayawma yaqoolu kun fayakoonu qawluhu alhaqqu walahu almulku yawma yunfakhu fee alssoori AAalimu alghaybi waalshshahadati wahuwa alhakeemu alkhabeeru
It is He who created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): the day He saith, "Be," behold! it is. His word is the truth. His will be the dominion the day the trumpet will be blown. He knoweth the unseen as well as that which is open. For He is the Wise, well acquainted (with all things).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An-Nahl (The Bee) [16:40]

Innama qawluna lishayin itha aradnahu an naqoola lahu kun fayakoonu
For to anything which We have willed, We but say the word, "Be", and it is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maryam (Mary) [19:35]

Ma kana lillahi an yattakhitha min waladin subhanahu itha qada amran fainnama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu
It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ya-Sin (Ya-Sin) [36:82]

Innama amruhu itha arada shayan an yaqoola lahu kun fayakoonu
Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, "be", and it is!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ghafir (The Forgiver) [40:68]

Huwa allathee yuhyee wayumeetu faitha qada amran fainnama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu
It is He Who gives Life and Death; and when He decides upon an affair, He says to it, "Be", and it is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again,

Ya Aly Madad roxy,

Shams
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roxy



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 5:10 am    Post subject: Re: I am not saying this the Quran is. Reply with quote

Shamsu -

You mention:
It is in the Quran in multiple places. When you were quoting the Quran so much I presumed you knew this simple fact.
------------------
And you kept on and on with the BE BE BE even after I gave reply from the quran verses that it is not BE BE BE.

You should have followed the Best you know :

Az-Zumar, or the Groups (XXXIX)
55) "And follow the Best that which was revealed to you from your Lord, before the Chastisement comes to you - of a sudden, while ye perceive not!-

There are many verses appearing in the Quran which ascribe that Allah took partners in the form of his own creation such as clay and what not while creating a human being. So will you go on and on ascribing that Allah took partners in the form of his own creation while creating a human being?
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:41 pm    Post subject: Kun Reply with quote

8 ayats state it in the Quran and it is very important to understand that the Hand of God is not any different from God and the word of God is similarly no different from God himself.

The corollary to that indicates that all of creation is no different from the creator when it exists as per his Farman.


Ya Aly Madad,

shamsu
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hazrat Mohammad [PBUH] said that

God made this world on Saturday.

On Sunday He made mountains

On Monday He made trees.

On Tuesday He made big things.

On Wednesday He made light

On Thursday He made animals

On Friday He made Hazrat Adam


In SiriLanka there is a mountain on which there is foot print of Hazrat Adam.
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bigmak



Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 7
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imam Sultan Muhd Shah has state in his memoirs that creation is not unique, but a continous and perpetual act.  This means that creation has and will always be there/here.
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Aliflammeem



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<P>Sorry for my intruption.&nbsp; I think we can solve this problem very easily if we think about nufs.</P>
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Aliflammeem



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:27 am    Post subject: where does God say that in Quran? Reply with quote

star_munir wrote:
Hazrat Mohammad [PBUH] said that

God made this world on Saturday.

On Sunday He made mountains

On Monday He made trees.

On Tuesday He made big things.

On Wednesday He made light

On Thursday He made animals

On Friday He made Hazrat Adam


In SiriLanka there is a mountain on which there is foot print of Hazrat Adam.


Where is it in Quran?
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Aliflammeem



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:30 am    Post subject: What is this? Reply with quote

bigmak wrote:
Imam Sultan Muhd Shah has state in his memoirs that creation is not unique, but a continous and perpetual act.&nbsp; This means that creation has and will always be there/here.



Are we looking into Quran for proofs or someone else? That mean we are not talking about words of God but some Imam.
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Aliflammeem



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:32 am    Post subject: Please give refrence Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
8 ayats state it in the Quran and it is very important to understand that the Hand of God is not any different from God and the word of God is similarly no different from God himself.

The corollary to that indicates that all of creation is no different from the creator when it exists as per his Farman.


Ya Aly Madad,

shamsu


Please mention where these 8 ayats are i have never noticed. Help
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Aliflammeem



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:36 am    Post subject: Ruh and Nufs Reply with quote

Can someone please tell me what is Ruh and Nufs? What are the differences in them? Please give refrences from Quran.
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hamida777



Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:04 am    Post subject: just wondering........... Reply with quote

ya ali madad just was wondering that we all have come from prophet adam (pbuh).... rite? then how come there are&nbsp; different colours of people&nbsp;in the world whites blacks n browns?????????
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19312

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:09 am    Post subject: Re: just wondering........... Reply with quote

hamida777 wrote:
ya ali madad just was wondering that we all have come from prophet adam (pbuh).... rite? then how come there are&nbsp; different colours of people&nbsp;in the world whites blacks n browns?????????
Adam is the symbolic first person. Prophet Adam was not the first person. People acquired different physical characteristics due to migration into different lands with different climates. If a person who has lived in a cold climate, moved to a sunny place, he is likely to become darker over time.

Also having people of different characteristics makes this world an interesting place, otherwise it can be boring.
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hamida777



Joined: 02 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:41 am    Post subject: Re: just wondering........... Reply with quote

tats true tat different people indeed make the world more interesting but still it does not answer my question...... no one can change sooo much that a indian can become chinesss with time.... i think its not tooo logical.....
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Heiswithinme



Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: just wondering........... Reply with quote

tats true tat different people indeed make the world more interesting but still it does not answer my question...... no o&shy;ne can change sooo much that a indian can become chinesss with time.... i think its not tooo logical.....

Studying evolution might help...To anyone... how do I disable these tags?


Last edited by Heiswithinme on Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total
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