www.ismaili.net

Mowlabapa says "shabde shabd ma khubi ane bhed cchupayla cche"

This is what I think.

Pir states Amaro Deen as Pir is our Leader

Shah states Tamaro Deen as Shah is Niranjan Nirakar sabse nyara. He doesn't need us, We need Him.

Next Question

Qayamat and Aakhirat Is there a difference? If so what is it?






HINT: "Tamne Aakhirat joyti hoi to....."

shamsu wrote:Mowlabapa says "shabde shabd ma khubi ane bhed cchupayla cche"

This is what I think.

Pir states Amaro Deen as Pir is our Leader

Shah states Tamaro Deen as Shah is Niranjan Nirakar sabse nyara. He doesn't need us, We need Him.

Next Question

Qayamat and Aakhirat Is there a difference? If so what is it?






HINT: "Tamne Aakhirat joyti hoi to....."

Please quote the relevant farman sr. no. and other details.

In fact in Kalame Imame Mubin everything is explained in detail. If you cannot understand Lord's farman that is because you are not using the intellect. Imam did say that if you do not use your intellect you will not know anything of the ismaili faith.

So when you go on asking and asking and asking despite having the farman available at your end demonstrates and proves that you are not using your intellect. God has given everyone intellect - in fact the root of your intellect is god's intellect. However, if you do not use it - the problem is yours not god's. Wipe out your problem by using your intellect and if i see you again asking questions i will assume you are again not using your intellect and are in the confusion, in which case, as a sharing of knowledge will remind you to use your intellect.

Stimulation of the Intellect is one of the best ways to enhance it.

If a person asks a question, it doesn't automatically mean they are not using their Intellect.

How are Ideas shared?

How are Discussions started?

Questions stimulate, lectures bore, rudeness turns people off, name calling just makes everyone mad.

Let us learn from this rather than "I'm taking my ball and going home"

Ya Aly Madad.

shamsu wrote:Stimulation of the Intellect is one of the best ways to enhance it.

If a person asks a question, it doesn't automatically mean they are not using their Intellect.

How are Ideas shared?

How are Discussions started?

Questions stimulate, lectures bore, rudeness turns people off, name calling just makes everyone mad.

Let us learn from this rather than "I'm taking my ball and going home"

Ya Aly Madad.

When answers are already there and despite this one asks the question means that the person is not using the intellect. Sultan mohd shah farman cannot be wrong. He mentions to know about the faith one should use the intellect else he will not know anything and shamsu you were asking questions and questions though the answers were readily available and you even mentioned reading farman books KIM and so on and so forth - because you do not know about ismaili faith it is clear that you are not using the intellect. Even quran cites that people who did not use the intellect ........

Al-Mulk, or Dominion (LXVII)
(10) They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!"

Anonymous wrote:

shamsu wrote:Mowlabapa says "shabde shabd ma khubi ane bhed cchupayla cche"

This is what I think.

Pir states Amaro Deen as Pir is our Leader

Shah states Tamaro Deen as Shah is Niranjan Nirakar sabse nyara. He doesn't need us, We need Him.

Next Question

Qayamat and Aakhirat Is there a difference? If so what is it?






HINT: "Tamne Aakhirat joyti hoi to....."

Please quote the relevant farman sr. no. and other details.

In fact in Kalame Imame Mubin everything is explained in detail. If you cannot understand Lord's farman that is because you are not using the intellect. Imam did say that if you do not use your intellect you will not know anything of the ismaili faith.

So when you go on asking and asking and asking despite having the farman available at your end demonstrates and proves that you are not using your intellect. God has given everyone intellect - in fact the root of your intellect is god's intellect. However, if you do not use it - the problem is yours not god's. Wipe out your problem by using your intellect and if i see you again asking questions i will assume you are again not using your intellect and are in the confusion, in which case, as a sharing of knowledge will remind you to use your intellect.

Only those who have knowledge can share it. Shamsu quote a single farman which says an ismaili can share his confusion with another ismaili.

Anonymous wrote:

shamsu wrote:Stimulation of the Intellect is one of the best ways to enhance it.

If a person asks a question, it doesn't automatically mean they are not using their Intellect.

How are Ideas shared?

How are Discussions started?

Questions stimulate, lectures bore, rudeness turns people off, name calling just makes everyone mad.

Let us learn from this rather than "I'm taking my ball and going home"

Ya Aly Madad.

When answers are already there and despite this one asks the question means that the person is not using the intellect. Sultan mohd shah farman cannot be wrong. He mentions to know about the faith one should use the intellect else he will not know anything and shamsu you were asking questions and questions though the answers were readily available and you even mentioned reading farman books KIM and so on and so forth - because you do not know about ismaili faith it is clear that you are not using the intellect. Even quran cites that people who did not use the intellect ........

Al-Mulk, or Dominion (LXVII)
(10) They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!"

Only those who have knowledge can share it. Shamsu quote a single farman which says an ismaili can share his confusion with another ismaili.

In fact during the period of holy prophet muhammad - quran reveals refer to God, etc. ... - whenever there was an argument - allah's message used to make things clear. It did not say refer to another person of your choice. Unless you refer to the proper authority how will you know?
You share your knowledge (and by knowledge I mean the truth) not your confusion.

Ya Aly Madad Ruh-Dost.

I have noticed that when you don't understand the Question or do not know the answer you attack the person asking the question.

Should I presume you have no clue about Aakhirat and Qayamat?

Are you sure you are not projecting { to attribute (one's own ideas, feelings, or characteristics) to other people or to objects} your confusion by accusing almost anyone who posts on this forum.

I hope you are not trying to mess up Admin's website Forums due to some old animus.

You want me to provide you serial numbers of Farmans and you keep on quoting Imam SMS without any references whatsoever.

Why are you in love with USMAN'S QURAN which is incomplete and inaccurate.

Quote the present Imam or Imam SMS or Imam Aly or Ginans.

I have already proven with Imam SMS farman that Quran was for the country of Arabi people.

DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND IMAMS FARMAN ARE THE FINAL WORD.

KIM I Farman 31 Page 80-81

"Tamaro Deen satya cche, TAMARO DEEN PUSTAKO UPERTHI SHARU THAYO NATHI, Parantu tae Mohabbatmathi utpan thayel cche."

"Tamara vastae Ilm cche tae GINAN cche"

"Qurane sharrifnae terso (1300 yrs) varsh thaya cche, TAE MULKAE ARABINI VASTI MAATAE CCHE. "
"GINAN ne saatsau varsh (700 yrs) thaya cche. Tamara maatae GINAN cche tae uper tamae cchalo"

Let us learn from this forum that your Usman's incomplete and inaccurate Quran is no match for Mowla Bapa's Farmans.

Anonymous wrote:Ya Aly Madad Ruh-Dost.

I have noticed that when you don't understand the Question or do not know the answer you attack the person asking the question.

Should I presume you have no clue about Aakhirat and Qayamat?

Are you sure you are not projecting { to attribute (one's own ideas, feelings, or characteristics) to other people or to objects} your confusion by accusing almost anyone who posts on this forum.

I hope you are not trying to mess up Admin's website Forums due to some old animus.

You want me to provide you serial numbers of Farmans and you keep on quoting Imam SMS without any references whatsoever.

Why are you in love with USMAN'S QURAN which is incomplete and inaccurate.

Quote the present Imam or Imam SMS or Imam Aly or Ginans.

I have already proven with Imam SMS farman that Quran was for the country of Arabi people.

DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND IMAMS FARMAN ARE THE FINAL WORD.

KIM I Farman 31 Page 80-81

"Tamaro Deen satya cche, TAMARO DEEN PUSTAKO UPERTHI SHARU THAYO NATHI, Parantu tae Mohabbatmathi utpan thayel cche."

"Tamara vastae Ilm cche tae GINAN cche"

"Qurane sharrifnae terso (1300 yrs) varsh thaya cche, TAE MULKAE ARABINI VASTI MAATAE CCHE. "
"GINAN ne saatsau varsh (700 yrs) thaya cche. Tamara maatae GINAN cche tae uper tamae cchalo"

Let us learn from this forum that your Usman's incomplete and inaccurate Quran is no match for Mowla Bapa's Farmans.

The last one was me

shamsu wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ya Aly Madad Ruh-Dost.

I have noticed that when you don't understand the Question or do not know the answer you attack the person asking the question.

Should I presume you have no clue about Aakhirat and Qayamat?

Are you sure you are not projecting { to attribute (one's own ideas, feelings, or characteristics) to other people or to objects} your confusion by accusing almost anyone who posts on this forum.

I hope you are not trying to mess up Admin's website Forums due to some old animus.

You want me to provide you serial numbers of Farmans and you keep on quoting Imam SMS without any references whatsoever.

Why are you in love with USMAN'S QURAN which is incomplete and inaccurate.

Quote the present Imam or Imam SMS or Imam Aly or Ginans.

I have already proven with Imam SMS farman that Quran was for the country of Arabi people.

DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND IMAMS FARMAN ARE THE FINAL WORD.

KIM I Farman 31 Page 80-81

"Tamaro Deen satya cche, TAMARO DEEN PUSTAKO UPERTHI SHARU THAYO NATHI, Parantu tae Mohabbatmathi utpan thayel cche."

"Tamara vastae Ilm cche tae GINAN cche"

"Qurane sharrifnae terso (1300 yrs) varsh thaya cche, TAE MULKAE ARABINI VASTI MAATAE CCHE. "
"GINAN ne saatsau varsh (700 yrs) thaya cche. Tamara maatae GINAN cche tae uper tamae cchalo"

Let us learn from this forum that your Usman's incomplete and inaccurate Quran is no match for Mowla Bapa's Farmans.

The last one was me

INSTEAD OF REPEATING THINGS OVER AND OVER AGAIN - GO AND REFER TO THE FARMANS OF MAWLANA HAZAR IMAM REGARDING QURAN AND HISTORY. ALSO REFER TO THE FOLLOWING:

September 25, 1964 - Message received on the occassion of All India Religious Conference held by Ismaila Association for India:
--------------------------------
While working through the topics which you must discuss, I am sure you will never forget that our faith is based on thousands of years of history and that we should learn from history and not think our past is of no use now and that it can therefore be rejected, abbreviated or altered.

Anonymous wrote:

shamsu wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ya Aly Madad Ruh-Dost.

I have noticed that when you don't understand the Question or do not know the answer you attack the person asking the question.

Should I presume you have no clue about Aakhirat and Qayamat?

Are you sure you are not projecting { to attribute (one's own ideas, feelings, or characteristics) to other people or to objects} your confusion by accusing almost anyone who posts on this forum.

I hope you are not trying to mess up Admin's website Forums due to some old animus.

You want me to provide you serial numbers of Farmans and you keep on quoting Imam SMS without any references whatsoever.

Why are you in love with USMAN'S QURAN which is incomplete and inaccurate.

Quote the present Imam or Imam SMS or Imam Aly or Ginans.

I have already proven with Imam SMS farman that Quran was for the country of Arabi people.

DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND IMAMS FARMAN ARE THE FINAL WORD.

KIM I Farman 31 Page 80-81

"Tamaro Deen satya cche, TAMARO DEEN PUSTAKO UPERTHI SHARU THAYO NATHI, Parantu tae Mohabbatmathi utpan thayel cche."

"Tamara vastae Ilm cche tae GINAN cche"

"Qurane sharrifnae terso (1300 yrs) varsh thaya cche, TAE MULKAE ARABINI VASTI MAATAE CCHE. "
"GINAN ne saatsau varsh (700 yrs) thaya cche. Tamara maatae GINAN cche tae uper tamae cchalo"

Let us learn from this forum that your Usman's incomplete and inaccurate Quran is no match for Mowla Bapa's Farmans.

The last one was me

INSTEAD OF REPEATING THINGS OVER AND OVER AGAIN - GO AND REFER TO THE FARMANS OF MAWLANA HAZAR IMAM REGARDING QURAN AND HISTORY. ALSO REFER TO THE FOLLOWING:

September 25, 1964 - Message received on the occassion of All India Religious Conference held by Ismaila Association for India:
--------------------------------
While working through the topics which you must discuss, I am sure you will never forget that our faith is based on thousands of years of history and that we should learn from history and not think our past is of no use now and that it can therefore be rejected, abbreviated or altered.

Let us see what else Mowla Bapa said in the SAME FARMAN

Friday, September 25, 1964.

(Message received on the occasion of An India Ismaili Religious Conference held by Ismailia Association for India)

My Dear President,

The following is My message to the All India Religious Conference inauguration.

I send to all My spiritual children participating in the All India Religious Conference, My most affectionate, paternal maternal blessings on this most important occasion.

I am sure that you will all use your knowledge and ability so as to reach conclusions which will be in the best interests of My Jamats of India. The ceremonies and customs which you will be discussing are the backbone of our faith and for this reason, your discussions should be guided by clear thinking, restraint and above all, faith.

While working through the topics which you must discuss, I am sure you will never forget that our faith is based on thousands of years of history and that we should learn from history and not think our past is of no use now and that it can therefore be rejected, abbreviated or altered.

I send to each and everyone of you individually My most affectionate loving blessings and pray for the success of your Conference.

Yours affectionately,

AGA KHAN

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RESTRAINT in the dictionary is defined as follows:

Main Entry: re·straint
Pronunciation: ri-'strAnt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French restrainte, from restraindre
Date: 15th century
1 a : an act of restraining : the state of being restrained b (1) : a means of restraining : a restraining force or influence (2) : a device that restricts movement <a restraint for children riding in cars>
2 : a control over the expression of one's emotions or thoughts

Pronunciation Key

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I DO NOT WANT MY IMAM TO EVER BE EMBARRASSED OF YOU BY YOUR OBLIVIOUSNESS OF RESTRAINT.

You mention: Allah states in the Quran that he created with one word.

Quran reveals that everything is created from the Soul of Allah and not from the Word of Allah. In fact word of Allah is guidance and not a command. For example,

You are saying that the word of Allah is not a command, it is guidance.

So according to you the command of Allah is wordless. What is wrong with your cognition?

Please read your posts again a few times and check them for ERRORS as you have already demonstrated that you do not check them for accuracy by making mistakes like "LAUGHT"

T and H are not even next to each other on the keyboard for you to call it a mistake. You have repeated that ERROR again when addressing Umed.

SO PLEASE CHECK YOUR POST'S FOR ACCURACY. CORRECT YOUR ERRORS. DO THIS FOR YOUR OWN SAKE.

You keep quoting "Blazing Fire"

From your post's it is obvious that you are living in the blazing fire of Anger, Hatred, Disrespect, Rudeness, Insult and Rage.

Recognize that you are already there, the place you keep warning me of.

You live in a place where the Light of Farmans doesn't make any difference and this is very sad.

I pray to my Mowla to Enlighten your heart with his Noor so as to help you live according to the Ethics of Islam. The Spirit of brotherhood, patience, tolerance, peace, restraint, forgiveness etc.

Ya Aly Madad

altaf_rupani wrote:My views in brief:
===========

You mention: Allah states in the Quran that he created with one word.

Quran reveals that everything is created from the Soul of Allah and not from the Word of Allah. In fact word of Allah is guidance and not a command. For example,

Al-Araf, or The Heights
29) Say: "My Lord hath commanded justice; and that ye set your whole selves (to Him) at every time and place of prayer, and call upon Him, making your devotion sincere such as He created you in the beginning, so shall ye return."

By the word of Allah he has commanded justice - but does each and every one live according to the command - no. In fact, Quran mentions so many things, live in peace, go by truth, etc. etc. So, word of allah is not a command but guidance - you either follow it or you do not. and Quran itself demonstrates that there were rumor mongering, people used to do wrong things, etc. even though Allah's word was one should not rumor monger, not do wrong things.

To make matters clear, Quran reveals:

Al-Rad, or Thunder (XIII)
31) Had it been possible for a Quran to cause the mountains to move, or the earth to be torn as under, or the dead to speak, (this Quran would have done so). Nay, but Allah's is the whole command. ==

Light upon Light = Allah's Light is everywhere ---> this seems to fit OK.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ya Aly Madad altaf_rupani

Sometimes I have to use the other persons language to help him understand. Here is something from Usman's Quran, that you seemed enamoured with, which proves Allah's will is his word and he created with his command (which is comprised of words, in case you thought otherwise)

036.079
YUSUFALI: Say, "He will give them life Who created them for the first time! for He is Well-versed in every kind of creation!-
PICKTHAL: Say: He will revive them Who produced them at the first, for He is Knower of every creation,
SHAKIR: Say: He will give life to them Who brought them into existence at first, and He is cognizant of all creation

036.080
YUSUFALI: "The same Who produces for you fire out of the green tree, when behold! ye kindle therewith (your own fires)!
PICKTHAL: Who hath appointed for you fire from the green tree, and behold! ye kindle from it.
SHAKIR: He Who has made for you the fire (to burn) from the green tree, so that with it you kindle (fire).

036.081
YUSUFALI: "Is not He Who created the heavens and the earth able to create the like thereof?" - Yea, indeed! for He is the Creator Supreme, of skill and knowledge (infinite)!
PICKTHAL: Is not He Who created the heavens and the earth Able to create the like of them? Aye, that He is! for He is the All-Wise Creator,
SHAKIR: Is not He Who created the heavens and the earth able to create the like of them? Yea! and He is the Creator (of all), the Knower.

036.082
YUSUFALI: Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, "be", and it is!
PICKTHAL: But His command, when He intendeth a thing, is only that He saith unto it: Be! and it is.
SHAKIR: His command, when He intends anything, is only to say to it: Be, so it is.

Are you still going to insist that creation was not from one word?

Creation of Allah - No Allah did not create anything with his word.
---------------------------
You can see there are millions and millions of birth taking place each day - not just human beings, but animals, birds, insects, mud, stone, computers, airoplanes, shoes, snakes, fish, monkeys, lions, tigers, elephants, hundreds of types of insects and what not - and there are just 24 hours in a day - do you think Allah has the time for giving his word to each and every creation ? I do not think so and as far as I am concerned creation is by though and by his will and not by word - more so, since God is one and there are millions of each creation per day and physically God just cannot create millions of things per day in a physical sense by speaking. To add to this creation is at differen places in the world - so do you think god must be doing a lot of running around the world saying BE, BE, BE, .... or he must be saying "BE" an animal in India at so and so place, "BE" a human being in USA at so and so place, "BE" a fish in the water at so and so place - "BE" an egg in Europe at so and so place. How can only BE be sufficient. So here only BE is not sufficient - BE but what BE ?

roxy wrote:Creation of Allah - No Allah did not create anything with his word.
---------------------------
You can see there are millions and millions of birth taking place each day - not just human beings, but animals, birds, insects, mud, stone, computers, airoplanes, shoes, snakes, fish, monkeys, lions, tigers, elephants, hundreds of types of insects and what not - and there are just 24 hours in a day - do you think Allah has the time for giving his word to each and every creation ? I do not think so and as far as I am concerned creation is by though and by his will and not by word - more so, since God is one and there are millions of each creation per day and physically God just cannot create millions of things per day in a physical sense by speaking. To add to this creation is at differen places in the world - so do you think god must be doing a lot of running around the world saying BE, BE, BE, .... or he must be saying "BE" an animal in India at so and so place, "BE" a human being in USA at so and so place, "BE" a fish in the water at so and so place - "BE" an egg in Europe at so and so place. How can only BE be sufficient. So here only BE is not sufficient - BE but what BE ?

Roxy
When we live in time and space and try to understand that which is above all else with our limited Human Intellect which is itself a creation of Allah, this type of post is what results.

The concept of a limited human intellect being able to understanding God is inherently flawed.
Our entire existance is contingent upon him and He is completely independent of all else.

He is above and beyond our highest evolved thought. Al- Muta'ali is one of the Names of Allah. Along with As-Samad and Al-Ahad.

We have lived our entire lives in the realm of time, Eternity is a concept we cannot even fathom.

The humility required in this search comes as you progress in it and eventually realize that you are so insignificant against his Vastness that you give up your Identity in the process and become fana (annihilated).

"Mai aur tu ki doori cchor, Ek dekh kuch do nahin
Aisa samaj fana ho usme, tu nahi to woh sahi hai.

Think of a bubble floating in the air. What comparision is the air inside it to the rest of the atmosphere.
The bubble cannot even fathom the vastness of the atmosphere of this earth.
Now, when the bubble bursts it becomes one with the atmosphere. The only thing between its identity and the Vast Air around it was it's identity itself.
This example is a MINISCULE one compared to the vastness of Allah and our limited selves.

I believe the search to be to recognize the self and discover that our identity is in fact nothing but a spiritual delusion. (A false belief that we exist as seperate from Allah)

The waves in the Ocean may think themselves to be seperate from the ocean and argue with each other on the Forums of Ismaili.net but they were never, are not and never will be seperated from the Vast Limitless Ocean of Allah.

So let us progress towards discovering self instead of trying to Understand Him, Who defies Human understanding as he is above and beyond the Human Imagination.

shamsu wrote:

roxy wrote:Creation of Allah - No Allah did not create anything with his word.
---------------------------
You can see there are millions and millions of birth taking place each day - not just human beings, but animals, birds, insects, mud, stone, computers, airoplanes, shoes, snakes, fish, monkeys, lions, tigers, elephants, hundreds of types of insects and what not - and there are just 24 hours in a day - do you think Allah has the time for giving his word to each and every creation ? I do not think so and as far as I am concerned creation is by though and by his will and not by word - more so, since God is one and there are millions of each creation per day and physically God just cannot create millions of things per day in a physical sense by speaking. To add to this creation is at differen places in the world - so do you think god must be doing a lot of running around the world saying BE, BE, BE, .... or he must be saying "BE" an animal in India at so and so place, "BE" a human being in USA at so and so place, "BE" a fish in the water at so and so place - "BE" an egg in Europe at so and so place. How can only BE be sufficient. So here only BE is not sufficient - BE but what BE ?

Roxy
When we live in time and space and try to understand that which is above all else with our limited Human Intellect which is itself a creation of Allah, this type of post is what results.

The concept of a limited human intellect being able to understanding God is inherently flawed.
Our entire existance is contingent upon him and He is completely independent of all else.

He is above and beyond our highest evolved thought. Al- Muta'ali is one of the Names of Allah. Along with As-Samad and Al-Ahad.

We have lived our entire lives in the realm of time, Eternity is a concept we cannot even fathom.

The humility required in this search comes as you progress in it and eventually realize that you are so insignificant against his Vastness that you give up your Identity in the process and become fana (annihilated).

"Mai aur tu ki doori cchor, Ek dekh kuch do nahin
Aisa samaj fana ho usme, tu nahi to woh sahi hai.

Think of a bubble floating in the air. What comparision is the air inside it to the rest of the atmosphere.
The bubble cannot even fathom the vastness of the atmosphere of this earth.
Now, when the bubble bursts it becomes one with the atmosphere. The only thing between its identity and the Vast Air around it was it's identity itself.
This example is a MINISCULE one compared to the vastness of Allah and our limited selves.

I believe the search to be to recognize the self and discover that our identity is in fact nothing but a spiritual delusion. (A false belief that we exist as seperate from Allah)

The waves in the Ocean may think themselves to be seperate from the ocean and argue with each other on the Forums of Ismaili.net but they were never, are not and never will be seperated from the Vast Limitless Ocean of Allah.

So let us progress towards discovering self instead of trying to Understand Him, Who defies Human understanding as he is above and beyond the Human Imagination.

Please answer to the point and do not divert from the subject matter. Further, please do not bring the ginans into the picture because ginan is a different subject and further the ginan you quote does not pertain to "BE".

I am repeating my posting (which was a reply to your posting):

You had earlier mentioned:

036.082
YUSUFALI: Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, "be", and it is!
PICKTHAL: But His command, when He intendeth a thing, is only that He saith unto it: Be! and it is.
SHAKIR: His command, when He intends anything, is only to say to it: Be, so it is.

Are you still going to insist that creation was not from one word?

I gave you my reply:

Creation of Allah - No Allah did not create anything with his word.
---------------------------
You can see there are millions and millions of birth taking place each day - not just human beings, but animals, birds, insects, mud, stone, computers, airoplanes, shoes, snakes, fish, monkeys, lions, tigers, elephants, hundreds of types of insects and what not - and there are just 24 hours in a day - do you think Allah has the time for giving his word to each and every creation ? I do not think so and as far as I am concerned creation is by though and by his will and not by word - more so, since God is one and there are millions of each creation per day and physically God just cannot create millions of things per day in a physical sense by speaking. To add to this creation is at differen places in the world - so do you think god must be doing a lot of running around the world saying BE, BE, BE, .... or he must be saying "BE" an animal in India at so and so place, "BE" a human being in USA at so and so place, "BE" a fish in the water at so and so place - "BE" an egg in Europe at so and so place. How can only BE be sufficient. So here only BE is not sufficient - BE but what BE ?

I think you are taking "Be" literally.

I think the reference is to the fact that all of Creation is from Farman. and if we are to "uncreate", to go back to where we came from, then the path is through the Farman of the Creator i.e. Imame Mubeen.

shamsu wrote:I think you are taking "Be" literally.

I think the reference is to the fact that all of Creation is from Farman. and if we are to "uncreate", to go back to where we came from, then the path is through the Farman of the Creator i.e. Imame Mubeen.

-- Once again instead of replying to the point you are diverting to nowhere -

Earlier in one of your posting you talked in the air :

Olive = (needs more reflection but Hazir Imam sure likes to eat them a lot)

- you know the reply you got to this.

I have already demonstrated and proved that the "BE" you mentioned is not sufficient for creation - nor does hazar imam says BE BE BE BE all the time you know - so there is no basis to what you mention ? The matter is thus settled by reasoning. For record purpose I am reproducing the posting :

You had earlier mentioned:

036.082
YUSUFALI: Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, "be", and it is!
PICKTHAL: But His command, when He intendeth a thing, is only that He saith unto it: Be! and it is.
SHAKIR: His command, when He intends anything, is only to say to it: Be, so it is.

Are you still going to insist that creation was not from one word?

I gave you my reply:

Creation of Allah - No Allah did not create anything with his word.
---------------------------
You can see there are millions and millions of birth taking place each day - not just human beings, but animals, birds, insects, mud, stone, computers, airoplanes, shoes, snakes, fish, monkeys, lions, tigers, elephants, hundreds of types of insects and what not - and there are just 24 hours in a day - do you think Allah has the time for giving his word to each and every creation ? I do not think so and as far as I am concerned creation is by though and by his will and not by word - more so, since God is one and there are millions of each creation per day and physically God just cannot create millions of things per day in a physical sense by speaking. To add to this creation is at differen places in the world - so do you think god must be doing a lot of running around the world saying BE, BE, BE, .... or he must be saying "BE" an animal in India at so and so place, "BE" a human being in USA at so and so place, "BE" a fish in the water at so and so place - "BE" an egg in Europe at so and so place. How can only BE be sufficient. So here only BE is not sufficient - BE but what BE ?

Guest I want to give you reference of the Farmans quoted by Shamsu earlier which you say it rumour
Farman of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah
1 Momin ki rooh hamari rooh hai.
2 zahiran insaan ka jisam na pak hota hai laikn rooh napaak nahi hoti.
Name of book is ROOHANI RAAZ
you call every one to read books.First of all you also start reading books and it is not neccesary that the Farman which you not know is rumour.ok

Ya Aly Madad roxy,

For you the word of the creator "BE" may not be sufficient.

Let me tell you what the word of the creator is for me.

It is my

"ALL"


To you your belief, to me mine.

I pray with all my heart that My Mowla bless you with Tidal waves of Roohani Ishk that annihilate you, your views, your thoughts, your opinions, your mind, your heart, and whatever else is left.

055.026
YUSUFALI: All that is on earth will perish:
PICKTHAL: Everyone that is thereon will pass away;
SHAKIR: Everyone on it must pass away.

055.027
YUSUFALI: But will abide (for ever) the Face of thy Lord,- full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour.
PICKTHAL: There remaineth but the Countenance of thy Lord of Might and Glory.
SHAKIR: And there will endure for ever the person of your Lord, the Lord of glory and honor.


"Isme Azam amaro assal swaroop cche"

"Isme Azam amaro assal nu NOOR cche"

What is Isme Azam if not the word of Imam.

Think, Reflect, Analyze, Internalize then Actualize.

Ya Aly Madad.
Shamsuddin

star_munir wrote:Guest I want to give you reference of the Farmans quoted by Shamsu earlier which you say it rumour
Farman of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah
1 Momin ki rooh hamari rooh hai.
2 zahiran insaan ka jisam na pak hota hai laikn rooh napaak nahi hoti.
Name of book is ROOHANI RAAZ
you call every one to read books.First of all you also start reading books and it is not neccesary that the Farman which you not know is rumour.ok

Please quote my posting reference star_munir and then say what you want to say. The farman you are refering to - in fact just discussed here or some other forum about that bhut parast - makes thing clear and mention about rooh being the Noor. So your no.1 and no.2 "rooh" refers to Noor. I had gone through the postings and If i remember right - shamsu was terming rooh = soul and not noor. If i remember right Shamsu was mentioning soul cannot get corrupt and then he himself came up with a ginan and later admitted that soul does get corrupt and that is that.

Shamsu did not term rooh as a noor - which the farman makes it clear but he went on terming rooh as soul - do you think this is proper star_munir, more so, since sultan mohd shah mentioned that it is noor.

On the other hand - shamsu in some of the forum/s has been refering "farman" as "noor" = you know everyone farmans (says) one way or another and in their farman (saying) it is possible sometimes very wrong and improper words are used = so farman cannot be a noor because noor is pure - but it appears shamsu is bent on saying it is a noor.

So why say things without proper basis inasmuch as things have been made very clear by way of sultan mohd shah farman about bhut parast that rooh = His noor? Do I hear you now saying that Soul is Noor ???? Go head - let us have clean discussion.

roxy wrote: I had gone through the postings and If i remember right - shamsu was terming rooh = soul and not noor. If i remember right Shamsu was mentioning soul cannot get corrupt and then he himself came up with a ginan and later admitted that soul does get corrupt and that is that.

Shamsu did not term rooh as a noor - which the farman makes it clear but he went on terming rooh as soul - do you think this is proper star_munir, more so, since sultan mohd shah mentioned that it is noor.

On the other hand - shamsu in some of the forum/s has been refering "farman" as "noor" = you know everyone farmans (says) one way or another and in their farman (saying) it is possible sometimes very wrong and improper words are used = so farman cannot be a noor because noor is pure - but it appears shamsu is bent on saying it is a noor.

So why say things without proper basis inasmuch as things have been made very clear by way of sultan mohd shah farman about bhut parast that rooh = His noor? Do I hear you now saying that Soul is Noor ???? Go head - let us have clean discussion.

Ya Aly Madad,
How would you understand "Rooh"

The word Rooh means multiple things in Arabic.
Rooh can be Soul
Rooh can be Spirit
Rooh can mean Essence
Rooh can mean life force.
Rooh can be used in a different context for example " Ramzan ke jane se party ka rooh nikal gaya"

It is important to understand the context in which the word is used.

No one definition mutually excludes another.

shamsu wrote:

roxy wrote: I had gone through the postings and If i remember right - shamsu was terming rooh = soul and not noor. If i remember right Shamsu was mentioning soul cannot get corrupt and then he himself came up with a ginan and later admitted that soul does get corrupt and that is that.

Shamsu did not term rooh as a noor - which the farman makes it clear but he went on terming rooh as soul - do you think this is proper star_munir, more so, since sultan mohd shah mentioned that it is noor.

On the other hand - shamsu in some of the forum/s has been refering "farman" as "noor" = you know everyone farmans (says) one way or another and in their farman (saying) it is possible sometimes very wrong and improper words are used = so farman cannot be a noor because noor is pure - but it appears shamsu is bent on saying it is a noor.

So why say things without proper basis inasmuch as things have been made very clear by way of sultan mohd shah farman about bhut parast that rooh = His noor? Do I hear you now saying that Soul is Noor ???? Go head - let us have clean discussion.

Ya Aly Madad,
How would you understand "Rooh"

The word Rooh means multiple things in Arabic.
Rooh can be Soul
Rooh can be Spirit
Rooh can mean Essence
Rooh can mean life force.
Rooh can be used in a different context for example " Ramzan ke jane se party ka rooh nikal gaya"

It is important to understand the context in which the word is used.

No one definition mutually excludes another.

ACCORDING TO YOU ALLAH HAS MADE HUMAN BEINGS FROM:
1) SOUL
2) SPIRIT.
[Your option please]

ACCORDING TO YOU :
1) Soul can be corrupt.
2) Spirit can be corrupt.
[Your option please]

Ya Aly Madad roxy,

in reply to your questions

ACCORDING TO YOU ALLAH HAS MADE HUMAN BEINGS FROM:
1) SOUL
2) SPIRIT.
[Your option please]

ACCORDING TO YOU :
1) Soul can be corrupt.
2) Spirit can be corrupt.
[Your option please]

Ans to A] Both

Ans to B] No if each question is asked seperately
But
yes to 1] and no to 2] if they both exist together in one entity like in humans in time and space.

Next question please.

Ya Aly Madad,

Shams

shamsu wrote:Ya Aly Madad roxy,

in reply to your questions

ACCORDING TO YOU ALLAH HAS MADE HUMAN BEINGS FROM:
1) SOUL
2) SPIRIT.
[Your option please]

ACCORDING TO YOU :
1) Soul can be corrupt.
2) Spirit can be corrupt.
[Your option please]

Ans to A] Both

Ans to B] No if each question is asked seperately
But
yes to 1] and no to 2] if they both exist together in one entity like in humans in time and space.

Next question please.

Ya Aly Madad,

Shams

ACCORDING TO YOU ALLAH HAS MADE HUMAN BEINGS FROM
Soul and Spirit. You are wrong here because Quran clearly reveals that Allah has made human beings from His soul. Already we have discussed this quoting Quran verses and Mawlana Hazar Imam's Farman taking into account Quran verse.

ACCORDING TO YOU :
Soul and spirit cannot be corrupted if they both exist together in one entity. It is to be noted that in all ordinary humans who are living there is a soul and a spirit - which farman mention that in human there is only soul and no spirit of Allah? So both will exist together in one entity. As per the ismaili tariqah soul can get corrupted - you had produced the ginans in earlier posting somewhere and the spirit is the light of mawlana hazar imam (remember that bhut parast farman) and the noor does not get corrupted.

The point is you agreed here that soul and spirit are two different things.

Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) [15:29]


Faitha sawwaytuhu wanafakhtu feehi min roohee faqaAAoo lahu sajideena

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."


Here is the context in which this ayat was revealed

25. Assuredly it is thy Lord Who will gather them together: for He is perfect in Wisdom and Knowledge.

26. We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;

27. And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.

28. Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape;

29. "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

30. So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together:

31. Not so Iblis: he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves.

32. ((Allah)) said: "O Iblis! what is your reason for not being among those who prostrated themselves?"

33. (Iblis) said: "I am not one to prostrate myself to man, whom Thou didst create from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape."

34. ((Allah)) said: "Then get thee out from here; for thou art rejected, accursed.

35. "And the curse shall be on thee till the day of Judgment."

36. (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised."

37. ((Allah)) said: "Respite is granted thee

38. "Till the Day of the Time appointed."

39. (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-

40. "Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."

41. ((Allah)) said: "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me.

42. "For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee."

43. And verily, Hell is the promised abode for them all!

44. To it are seven gates: for each of those gates is a (special) class (of sinners) assigned.

45. The righteous (will be) amid gardens and fountains (of clear-flowing water).

shamsu wrote:Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) [15:29]


Faitha sawwaytuhu wanafakhtu feehi min roohee faqaAAoo lahu sajideena

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."


Here is the context in which this ayat was revealed

25. Assuredly it is thy Lord Who will gather them together: for He is perfect in Wisdom and Knowledge.

26. We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;

27. And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.

28. Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape;

29. "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

30. So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together:

31. Not so Iblis: he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves.

32. ((Allah)) said: "O Iblis! what is your reason for not being among those who prostrated themselves?"

33. (Iblis) said: "I am not one to prostrate myself to man, whom Thou didst create from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape."

34. ((Allah)) said: "Then get thee out from here; for thou art rejected, accursed.

35. "And the curse shall be on thee till the day of Judgment."

36. (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised."

37. ((Allah)) said: "Respite is granted thee

38. "Till the Day of the Time appointed."

39. (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-

40. "Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."

41. ((Allah)) said: "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me.

42. "For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee."

43. And verily, Hell is the promised abode for them all!

44. To it are seven gates: for each of those gates is a (special) class (of sinners) assigned.

45. The righteous (will be) amid gardens and fountains (of clear-flowing water).

You are wrong here - God has not created anyone physically. Earlier you mentioned that God created everyone with his word and I proved that this was not so. There is a farman of mawlana hazar imam which mention soul is created and is given a physical form. I also gave a farman of hazar imam quoting the relevant verse of the quran in this regard. For your infomation God is not depended on any other to create a thing and his creation is not physical. In fact he is the First - there was no one except him. Juch as he created heavens and the earth from his own source, he created human being and quran is clear that he created human being from a single soul. He is not depended on others including his own creation for creating human being. Do you mean to say that god has taken a partner to create us such as clay and what not ? Please do not ascribe partners with God vis-a-vis creation - and what kind of partners you are ascribing - clay .... if i continue i might get sick.

roxy wrote:

shamsu wrote:I think you are taking "Be" literally.

I think the reference is to the fact that all of Creation is from Farman. and if we are to "uncreate", to go back to where we came from, then the path is through the Farman of the Creator i.e. Imame Mubeen.

-- Once again instead of replying to the point you are diverting to nowhere -

Earlier in one of your posting you talked in the air :

Olive = (needs more reflection but Hazir Imam sure likes to eat them a lot)

- you know the reply you got to this.

I have already demonstrated and proved that the "BE" you mentioned is not sufficient for creation - nor does hazar imam says BE BE BE BE all the time you know - so there is no basis to what you mention ? The matter is thus settled by reasoning. For record purpose I am reproducing the posting :

You had earlier mentioned:

036.082
YUSUFALI: Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, "be", and it is!
PICKTHAL: But His command, when He intendeth a thing, is only that He saith unto it: Be! and it is.
SHAKIR: His command, when He intends anything, is only to say to it: Be, so it is.

Are you still going to insist that creation was not from one word?

I gave you my reply:

Creation of Allah - No Allah did not create anything with his word.
---------------------------
You can see there are millions and millions of birth taking place each day - not just human beings, but animals, birds, insects, mud, stone, computers, airoplanes, shoes, snakes, fish, monkeys, lions, tigers, elephants, hundreds of types of insects and what not - and there are just 24 hours in a day - do you think Allah has the time for giving his word to each and every creation ? I do not think so and as far as I am concerned creation is by though and by his will and not by word - more so, since God is one and there are millions of each creation per day and physically God just cannot create millions of things per day in a physical sense by speaking. To add to this creation is at differen places in the world - so do you think god must be doing a lot of running around the world saying BE, BE, BE, .... or he must be saying "BE" an animal in India at so and so place, "BE" a human being in USA at so and so place, "BE" a fish in the water at so and so place - "BE" an egg in Europe at so and so place. How can only BE be sufficient. So here only BE is not sufficient - BE but what BE ?

Here is something from Memoirs of Aga Khan III




There is a fundamental difference between the Jewish idea of creation and that of Islam. The creation according to Islam is not a unique act in a given time but a perpetual and constant event; and God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought. Outside His will, outside His thought, all is nothing, even the things which seem to us absolutely self-evident such as space and time. Allah alone wishes: the Universe exists. [Memoirs]

-- Aga Khan III


Mowla Bapa has said that in each line of his farman there are thousands of meanings. To get only one thousand meanings from this paragraph you will have to re-read it 1000 times. Do you think I am right about this.


How does Imam express his wish?

Answer: In his Farman.

Therefore Imam creates with his Farman.

Hence all creation is Farman of Mowla.

You are a Farman of Mowla.

I am a Farman of Mowla.

Babul Missionary is a Farman of Mowla.

Mowla Aly calls himself The Supreme Kalaam.

"I am the sign of the Most High, I am the Gnosis of Mysteries, I am the Door of the doors, I am the First and the Last. I am the Manifest and the Hidden. I am the creator. I give birth to the world and I destroy it as I wish. I am the face of God, I am the Supreme Kalam." (Mowlana Hazrat Ali, Khubat al-Bayan. From a total of 70 such declarations, partially quoted in H.Corbin "Histoire de la philosophie islamique", Paris 1964, page 77.)

The KIZ 1,2,3 I sent you have a binocular icon, click on it and type in the word wish and you will see how many times mowla expresses his wishes in his Farman.

There are infinite Farmans. If you want to recognize one, look in the mirror.


I think Allah's word has all of Allah's power behind it and it is as eternal as Allah himself.

The fact is that The name of Allah is itself Allah.

That is the reason why Imam SMS has stated "Isme Azam amaro assal no NOOR cche" in BUK.

This name of Allah is written on your face. Look in the mirror and smile. If you have any knowledge of Arabic or Urdu you should see

a "c" = ain

a "l" = laam

and a small yeh that looks like a "c" the bottom of which is connected to the second arm of a wide "u".

Let me know if you see Aly in your face.

If you do, then you will know for certain that "whatever is, is Ya Aly"

Ya Aly Madad.

Shams