Franšais  |  Mission  |  About us  |  Disclaimer  |  Contact  |  What's new  |  FAQ  |  Search  | 

Welcome to The Heritage Web Site

-->
MY HERITAGE
New Heritage
Main Page
New Account
Set as Homepage
My Account
Logout
GOLDEN JUBILEE
Statistics
DIDARS
COMMUNICATE
Forums
Guestbook
Members List
Recommend Us
NEWS
Timelines
Ismaili History
Today in History
LEARN
Library
Youth's Corner
Ginans
FAIR
Gallery
Photo Album
Others


www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Pre-Adam
FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups  ProfileProfile   
Login to check your private messagesLogin to check your private messages

Pre-Adam
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ismaili.net Forum Index -> Pre-Adam
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Guest






PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2003 5:28 pm    Post subject: Pre-Adam Reply with quote

Before Adam there was no Earth or Heavens. But even without Earth and Heavens there was God somewhere. He drew out a plan to create the Earth and the Heavens including which part of the earth should have snow, which part of the earth should not have snow. The timings of rain, summer, winter, etc. He created the Earth and the Heavens from his own source, i.e. soul, so he is everywhere and in each touch with every thing. Everything has life including trees, stone, mud, etc. Of course I do not think God's form is very very big because say a very big building is built - the owner need not be bigger like a building. The owner of the building may be a six foot height or near about. But this God has very big powers. God did not built any thing physically purely because if one goes by the starting point there was nothing but him - so he built everyting from his own source, i.e. soul, by his will - he himself knows how he does it. Cannot grasp these kind of things. Then when God built the heavens and the earth he came down on earth and he decided to reside on the earth. This is in short.
Back to top
shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2003 7:08 pm    Post subject: "Allah's creation is perpetual" Reply with quote

Mowla says "Allah's creation is perpetual"

"When man thinks it is thought, when God thinks it's creation"

Reflect on these

Adam = Aa Dum

Hawwa = Air

Rib = that without which dum cannot inhale hawwa.

Dum cannot exist without Hawwa.

Allah breathes his Spirit into Adam.

Spirit = Zikr = Ya Aly

I think Adam is established when Zikr is established in the Saas usaas.

Then comes Nuh and his Nau
"Nav kije Aly ke naam ki, tema sacha bhariye bhaar.
Jab pavan chale prem ka, tab satgur utare paar"

pavan=saas usaas
sat gur = zikr
bhavsagar= bhavana nu sagar = worldly attachments.

and after that came Ibrahim, Musa, Isa and Rasulillah; the Six days of creation (stages a momin goes through in his or her personal world in the journey towards Allah)

More to follow
please pardon my grammatical errors.
shams
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2003 7:27 pm    Post subject: "This world is like a Dream" Reply with quote

Imam SMS " Aa duniya sapna jevi cche"

And the dream creator is the Imam

Can a dream exist without a dreamer?

Where does the dream exist - Inside the dreamer.

"Wa qul shain asaina hu fi Imam-e-mubeen"

Imam Aly Shah
"Ay jamato je kai cche te sagdu amara ander samai gaiyo che ....."

The question is how many participants of this dream recognize the original Dream creator.

Only those who he blesses with the knowledge.

The existance of the entire dream is contingent upon the ongoing participation of the creator.

This world can therefore not exist without the Hazir Imam even for a moment.

As he exists above the human Intellect it is only his Intellect (NOOR) that can help us understand and enlighten our path back to him.

I think Vision of Noor is not the final goal, it is just the begining of our journey back to ASAL MAKAN.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
altaf_rupani



Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2003 9:25 pm    Post subject: pre-Adam and subsequent postings Reply with quote

The following verse of the Quran further clears the matter that Allah after creation of Earth and the Heavens has made the earth his residence and He is ever present in his physical form at one place and spiritually he is everywhere and his gender is male as the wording "He" and "His" demonstrates:

An-Nur, or Light (XXIV)
35) Allah is the Light (Noor) of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the Glass as it were a brilliant star: lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the East nor of the West whose Oil is well-nigh luminous, though no fire touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He pleases to His Light: Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things.

Quran reveals that Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth and, by way of a parable in respect of Light, reveals that the lamp is "lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the East nor of the West whose Oil is well-nigh luminous, though no fire touched it". The source which lights the Lamp is the oil of the blessed Olive Tree and hence blessed Olive Tree refers to Allah taking into account that the wording "blessed", inter alia, means holy, pure, sacred and godly and Allah is holy, pure, sacred and godly and the Quran reveals that it is Allah who gives (all) Sustenance :

Az-Zariyat, or the Winds That Scatter (LI)
58) For Allah is He who gives (all) Sustenance, - Lord of Power, - Steadfast (for ever).

In view of the above, the blessed Olive Tree is the "blessed physical form of Allah" and the oil of the blessed Olive Tree (which lights the Lamp) is His "Light". Quran also reveals that "blessed" Olive Tree (Allah) is "neither of the East nor of the West". This is clear from the fact that the heavens and the earth were created by Allah and hence He was before the East and West were created on earth and heavens, as such, taking into account the origin, Allah (blessed Olive Tree) is neither of the East nor of the West on earth (as well as on Heavens). In view of this it can also be said that the Light is neither of the East nor of the West. Needless to say, the (blessed) Olive Tree, the source of Light is visible and hence the blessed form of Allah is also visible. The fact that the Light is His (i.e. of Allah) or Allah is the source of Light is clearly revealed in the same verse "The parable of His Light is as" and "Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light". To give support to the above, i.e. Allah is the First, He is manifest/visible, He created the heavens and the earth, etc., Quran reveals:

Surah Al-Hadid (57)
3) "He is the first, He is the last, He is the manifest, and He is the hidden and He is knower of all things.

[The word manifest, inter alia, means visible, true, eye-catching, clear, illuminate, reveal, establish, evident].

4) He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and is moreover firmly established on the Throne (of authority). He knows what enters within the earth and what comes forth out of it what comes down from heaven and what mounts up to it. And He is with you wheresoever ye may be. And Allah sees well all that ye do.

The parable of Light also mention "His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the Glass as it were a brilliant star." Thus, it is clear that the oil of the blessed olive tree lights the lamp of understanding (brilliant Star) taking into account that Quran reveals:

Sad - 38
29) (Here is) a Book which We have sent down unto thee full of blessings that they may ponder over its messages and that men of understanding may receive admonition.
["Ponder", inter alia, means consider, reason, reflect, study, think, weigh, meditate, contemplate, perceive, speculate, conjecture, etc. and "understanding", inter alia, means intellect, mind, reason, assessment, insight, grasp, recognition, shrewdness, comprehension, etc.]

The lamp, inter alia, spreads the light or give the light to others. The lighted lamp of understanding, thus, spreads or gives the light (Allah's message) to others (Light upon Light).

Quran also reveals that Allah guide whom He pleases to His Light and Allah sets forth Parables for men and Allah knows all things including the parable he sets forth for men.

It is significant to note that the Quran reveals:

Al-Ahzab, or The Confederates (XXXIII)
45) O Prophet! Truly We have sent thee as a Witness, a bearer of glad tidings, and a Warner, -
46) And as one who invites to Allah's (Grace) by His leave, and as a Lamp spreading Light.

Al-Anbiyaa - 21
48) In the past We granted to Moses and Aaron the Criterion (for judgment) and a Light and a Message for those who would do right

It is also significant to note that Quran reveals:

Az-Zumar - 39
27) We have put forth for men in this Quran every kind of parable in order that they may receive admonition.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2003 3:28 am    Post subject: SURA AN NUR Reply with quote

An-Nur, or Light (XXIV)
35) Allah is the Light (Noor) of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the Glass as it were a brilliant star: lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the East nor of the West whose Oil is well-nigh luminous, though no fire touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He pleases to His Light: Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things.


1. "Amara farman cche te Noor cche"
Heaven and Earth are created from the farman(Noor) of Allah. The light of Allah is the cause of Heaven and Earth.

Niche = Mouth of Imam

Lamp = That which makes enlightenment possible. That which manifests the light from the Oil.

Glass contains the light without blocking it. Protects others from getting burned by the flame. Physical body of Imam. Farman reference of changing bulbs but light is same.

Brilliant star="Kutub taro amari peshani ma cche" Intellect of Imam Aql-e-qul

Blessed Tree= Blessed family tree of Nabi Muhammed (salwat) Allahuma saliallah Muhammedi wa ale muhammed.

Olive = (needs more reflection but Hazir Imam sure likes to eat them a lot)

Neither of the east nor of the west = above this world, above and beyond space or place.

Farmans enlighten even if they are obeyed without the fire of love.

Light upon light = Farman upon Farman

Allah guides to his light whom he pleases = "Ame jene cchahiye cche tene amara Noor vade hidayat kariye cche."
Allah guides to his light whom he wills = Get to the light of Allah by obeying his will (Farman) which will make him pleased with you and in turn guide you with more light (of understanding)towards the light.

49th Imam Speech to Asia Society NY
"As we work towards that vision of the future we will remember the Surah of

Light from the Quran. It tells us that the oil of the blessed olive tree lights

the lamp of understanding, a light that belongs neither to the East nor West.

We are to give this light to all. In that spirit, all that we learn will belong

to the world and that too is part of the vision I share with you."

Parables: Parables force us to reflect and knock on the door of the Intellect which is connected to the Aql-e-qul "Darek insan ni aql nu moor Imam ni Aql cche"

Aql-e-qul by definition knows all things.


Humbly submitted, pardon my ignorance if it hurts anyones feelings.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
altaf_rupani



Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2003 8:08 am    Post subject: Pre-Adam Reply with quote

Farman is not Noor of Allah. You have heard of Noorani Deedar - Does Deedar ring a bell ? If not ponder what is zahiri deedar, hope you have experienced this. You have heard of Prophet getting Deedar of Allah and His Greater Revelation (Light). The source is blessed Olive Tree - that is Allah, the Source.

Regarding farman - If one puts blue gelitin paper over the bulb the light is blue, if green paper the light is green but the Light is one and the same. This conveys that the Allah's Noor is one and the same but his form changes. The Noor has divinity but the Human Form does not have divinity. This is the rule set out by Allah and Quran makes this clear.

The parable reveals that the light of Allah is not the cause of Heaven and Earth. Allah is the cause. Without Allah there is no Light.

Quran reveals:

Fatir -35
41) It is Allah Who sustains the heavens and the earth lest they cease (to function): and if they should fail there is none not one can sustain them thereafter: verily He is Most Forbearing Oft-Forgiving.

You mention hazar imam likes to eat olives - I think this is not so because:

The olive fruit is a drupe. It has a bitter component (oleuropein), a low sugar content (2.6-6%) compared with other drupes (12% or more) and a high oil content (12-30%) depending on the time of year and variety.
These characteristics make it a fruit that cannot be consumed directly from the tree and it has to undergo a series of processes that differ considerably from region to region, and which also depend on variety. Oleuropein, which is distinctive to the olive, has to be removed as it has a strong bitter taste: it is not, however, pernicious to health. Depending on local methods and customs, the fruit is generally treated in sodium or potassium hydroxide, brine or successively rinsed in water.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
Guest






PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2003 8:56 am    Post subject: Pre-Adam Reply with quote

Sorry about that bracket (Light upon Light). Posted in a hurry. Not farman upon farman but Light upon Light. i.e. from one form to another. Light is attached to the form. In other words, "upon" also means "attached to", consequent to, etc.. You can refer to the example of different colours of light due to gelitin paper colour and the light.

It can be observed that the blessed olive tree itself gets is nourishment from the soil via its roots at the same time the heavens and earth is created by Allah. In such a way, the source is still the blessed Olive Tree even though it gets its nourishment from the earth.
Back to top
shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2003 2:44 pm    Post subject: Allah = Noor of Allah Reply with quote

Ya Aly Madad Altaf Rupani,

Who is Altaf Rupani? Is it his body? Is it his brain? Is it his mind? Is it his consciousness?
Who is reading this post? Is it you or you mind? Are you your mind or do you use your mind to communicate your beliefs?

What is greater your mind or your beliefs?

Just as your body and mind are Mazhar-e-Altaf Rupani,

Imams body and mind are Mazhar-e-Allah.

Zaheri and batuni deedar in reality means having Noorani deedar in the zahir and batuni realm.

Imam SMS "Pak nazar ane pak dilthi joso to dar ek ma khudavantalla nu noor jovama avshe. Farman chodi ne badnazarthi joso to dil ni ankho andhdi thai jashe ...."

Assal Noorani deedar involves absolute annihilation in the Noor of Allah (Name of Allah).
There is no identity left whatsoever hence a millionth of a second and five minutes of Noorani deedar are one and the same.

Have to go to JK will be back soon.
Ya Aly Madad (Madade Aly, Shafayate Rasul, Itayate Allah)
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2003 7:37 pm    Post subject: Farman created the heavens and the earth. Reply with quote

Allah states in the Quran that he created with one word.

The Bible states "In the begining there was the Word, the Word was with God, The Word was God....."

Quran states Ruh is by the command of Allah.

Dear Altaf Rupani,

Imam SMS stated "Je kai cche te Ruh ej cche"
"Whatever is, is Ruh"

Therefore whatever is, is Farman.

The entire Quran is the farman of Rasulillah that he humbly attributed to Allah.
I hope no one elses words were included in the Quran.

In our old dua we used to pray "Aly Muhammed yek khuda, Haq shanasi dafe bala" (Aly and Muhammed are one i.e. khuda, recognition of this absolute truth drives away trials).

Rasulillah hadith has stated "Aly and I are from one Noor"

In the current dua we say "Ya Aly bilutfik adrikni" and right before that we say "eyaka na-abudu va eyaka nastaeen"

Check out the meaning of the latter half of the 5th part of dua.

One of the names of Allah is Al- Muta-ali. It means he who is above the most evolved thought or imagination of man.

There is no way the creation can become one with the creator.
(Fana-fi-Allah)
Can a poem once written become one with the poet? ONLY IF THE POET WISHES IT AND HE ANNIHILATES ALL COPIES OF IT COMPLETELY. NOW IT LIVES EXCLUSIVELY IN THE THOUGHTS OF THE POET.

Are we ready to live exclusively in the thought of the creator AFTER having annihilated our identity/individuality with his blessing into his being which is Noor=Farman=Ism-e-Aazam.


Where is Allah and Rasul now? When we say Shahada what are we saying. Are we just talking about what we have never seen or experienced. Are we basing our belief on heresay, or do we have a real living proof of all that in the form of the Imam.

Rasulillah was the only link to Allah and he passed on 1400 yrs ago.

Am I going to believe whatever is written and told to me 2nd hand or am I going to pledge my allegience to a living entity that guarantees support after death if I follow his Farmans.

Show me one such living entity in the entire world at this time other than our Imam who has the guts to even venture into a discussion about this.

Sorry about digressing into the shanasi aspect of Ismailism. I think I should have stopped earlier.
Ya Aly Madad.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
altaf_rupani



Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2003 9:20 pm    Post subject: Pre-Adam and subsequent emails Reply with quote

My views in brief:
===========

You mention: Allah states in the Quran that he created with one word.

Quran reveals that everything is created from the Soul of Allah and not from the Word of Allah. In fact word of Allah is guidance and not a command. For example,

Al-Araf, or The Heights
29) Say: "My Lord hath commanded justice; and that ye set your whole selves (to Him) at every time and place of prayer, and call upon Him, making your devotion sincere such as He created you in the beginning, so shall ye return."

By the word of Allah he has commanded justice - but does each and every one live according to the command - no. In fact, Quran mentions so many things, live in peace, go by truth, etc. etc. So, word of allah is not a command but guidance - you either follow it or you do not. and Quran itself demonstrates that there were rumor mongering, people used to do wrong things, etc. even though Allah's word was one should not rumor monger, not do wrong things.

To make matters clear, Quran reveals:

Al-Rad, or Thunder (XIII)
31) Had it been possible for a Quran to cause the mountains to move, or the earth to be torn as under, or the dead to speak, (this Quran would have done so). Nay, but Allah's is the whole command. ==

Light upon Light = Allah's Light is everywhere ---> this seems to fit OK.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
altaf_rupani



Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2003 6:00 am    Post subject: Pre-Adam - Light upon Light Reply with quote

Attn: Samsu

I will appreciate that "Light upon Light" be discussed. In fact, I was expecting that you would mention that the spark of the light goes back to the light from where it comes. You know Fanafillah. Quran is clear in this regard as at many places. One such example is :

Hud / 11
-----------
4) "`To Allah is your return and He hath power over all things.'"

P.S.: You had earlier addressed me as Altaf Rupani because my ID is altaf_rupani. Please note my name is not Altaf Rupani and I want to keep my Identity a secret. You can address me by my Id.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
altaf_rupani



Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2003 7:44 pm    Post subject: Pre-Adam and subsequent emails Reply with quote

Shamsu as there is no reply from you I am replying my own posting :

Light upon Light means Light upon Light. This is not a parable of Light but Light itself. Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth and hence, Light on the Earth and Light on the Heavens = Light upon Light.

The Light upon Light of Allah.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 4:26 am    Post subject: NOORAN ALA NOOR Reply with quote

"LIGHT UPON LIGHT"
i.e.
"Nooran Ala Noor" Has been interpreted in many ways
1. It has been seen as the transmission of Noor from one Imam to the next until Qayamat.

2. The enlightenment given by Imam to his Haqiqati Momin. Example-In the ginans we have "Paras Sparse Loha rang palate to jagmag Jyot-----"
Paras=stone that turns loha=iron into gold. Rang=color palate=change
Jagmag Jyot=flame of brilliant light

These are the 2 I can think of at this moment.

Shams
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
altaf_rupani



Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 9:51 am    Post subject: Pre-Adam and subsequent Post Reply with quote

Yes - that is right. Light upon Light does convey Light from one form upon another.

Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth (then the parable of Light which conveys source of the Light is the blessed Olive Tree). Light upon Light.

In fact, the universe is but a supreme manifestation of God (Mawlana Hazar Imam/blessed Olive Tree) and we are living in God because each and everything is created from His source only, i.e. His soul. Quran reveals that the creation is a continuous activity until one return from where one came, i.e. from the soul of Allah.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 1:52 pm    Post subject: Ruh Reply with quote

Imam SMS has Stated

"Rooh ek aj cche"
There is one soul


"Momin no Rooh ane amaro rooh ek cche"
Soul of Momin and Imam is One.

QURAN
17:85 They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"

17:85. Wayas-aloonaka AAani alrroohi quli alrroohu min amri rabbee wama ooteetum mina alAAilmi illa qaleelan

017.085 They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"


As you can see in the transliteration the word Rooh is used.

The translators have interpreted instead of just translating.

ROOH IS BY THE COMMAND OF ALLAH.

shams
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
altaf_rupani



Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Rooh is the command of Allah" - does not match here. The problem with all these is the Quran was not copied from the Original Book of Allah (Quran) - in fact, this original book of Allah was rejected by those compiling the Quran. For example, you find that people used to come morning and evening and seek the face of the Lord. In fact, the message of the Quran was people should seek the face of the Lord morning and evening. The fact that people used to come morning and evening to seek the face of the Lord clearly reveals that the Holy Prophet had revealed who the Lord is which does not appear in the Quran.

Actually this "inspiration" comes from Allah directly. Allah guides his followers through his Noor.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
Guest






PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 5:37 pm    Post subject: Pre-Adam and other correspondence Reply with quote

Attn: Samsu

It appears I missed out your post regarding Deedar.

For your info, Deedar are of three kinds : Zahiri Deedar, Batuni Deedar and Noorani Deedar.

In other words, Deedar means a Deedar.

The Holy Prophet's Deedar of Allah and His Light [Noor] (greater revelations of his Lord)
----------------------------------------------------------
Quran reveals

An-Najm, or the Star (LIII)
-------------------------------
2) Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.
3) Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) desire.
6) Endued with Wisdom: for he appeared (in stately form)
in other words
6) One vigorous; and he grew clear to view.
7) While he was in the highest part of the horizon:
icon_cool.gif Then he approached and came closer,
9) And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer;
10) So did (Allah) convey the inspiration to His Servant - (conveyed) what
He (meant) to convey.
11) The (Prophet's) (mind and) heart in no way falsified that which he saw.
12) Will ye then dispute with him concerning what he saw?
13) For indeed he saw him at a second descent,
in other words
13) And verily he saw him yet another time.
17) (His) sight never swerved, nor did it go wrong!
in other words
17) The eye turned not aside nor yet was overbold.
1icon_cool.gif For truly did he see, of the Signs of his Lord, the Greatest!
in other words
1icon_cool.gif Verily he saw one of the greater revelations of his Lord
Back to top
altaf_rupani



Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 4:38 am    Post subject: Pre-Adam and subsequent correspendence Reply with quote

Attn: Samsu

Please let me know when did the Imam mention "Soul of Momin and Imam is One". If in gujrati language the word "Momin" is a follower then please note the soul gets corrupted and hence the soul of Imam and the Momin cannot be one when the Momin is alive on earth - because the Momin while on earth continues to sin and to wipe out the sin the Momin has to come to jamatkhana, pray for forgiveness to the Imam, etc. etc. I think what you say is the plain rumor mongering just as you mentioned above olives and the Imam.

Also, as mentioned in earlier email, the "holy spirit" refers to the Noor = what do you say ?
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Pre-Adam and other correspondence Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
Attn: Samsu

It appears I missed out your post regarding Deedar.

For your info, Deedar are of three kinds : Zahiri Deedar, Batuni Deedar and Noorani Deedar.

In other words, Deedar means a Deedar.

The Holy Prophet's Deedar of Allah and His Light [Noor] (greater revelations of his Lord)
----------------------------------------------------------
Quran reveals

An-Najm, or the Star (LIII)
-------------------------------
2) Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.
3) Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) desire.
6) Endued with Wisdom: for he appeared (in stately form)
in other words
6) One vigorous; and he grew clear to view.
7) While he was in the highest part of the horizon:
icon_cool.gif Then he approached and came closer,
9) And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer;
10) So did (Allah) convey the inspiration to His Servant - (conveyed) what
He (meant) to convey.
11) The (Prophet's) (mind and) heart in no way falsified that which he saw.
12) Will ye then dispute with him concerning what he saw?
13) For indeed he saw him at a second descent,
in other words
13) And verily he saw him yet another time.
17) (His) sight never swerved, nor did it go wrong!
in other words
17) The eye turned not aside nor yet was overbold.
1icon_cool.gif For truly did he see, of the Signs of his Lord, the Greatest!
in other words
1icon_cool.gif Verily he saw one of the greater revelations of his Lord




Ginan reference "Shah dekhe, shah ko koi koi dekhe"

The ayat above talks about seeing with the heart.

If you think deedar involves physical eyes then I think you need to reflect some more on things like "Eye of the Intellect" and the Farman about "Farman cchodi ne badnajar thi joso to dil ni ankho andhdi thai jase...."
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 5:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Pre-Adam and subsequent correspendence Reply with quote

altaf_rupani wrote:
Attn: Samsu

Please let me know when did the Imam mention "Soul of Momin and Imam is One". If in gujrati language the word "Momin" is a follower then please note the soul gets corrupted and hence the soul of Imam and the Momin cannot be one when the Momin is alive on earth - because the Momin while on earth continues to sin and to wipe out the sin the Momin has to come to jamatkhana, pray for forgiveness to the Imam, etc. etc. I think what you say is the plain rumor mongering just as you mentioned above olives and the Imam.

Also, as mentioned in earlier email, the "holy spirit" refers to the Noor = what do you say ?




Rajkot Feb 20 1910

"Momin no Rooh te Amaro Rooh cche..."

Nairobi Oct 4 1905

"Jaherima manasnu badan napaak thai che pun Rooh napaak thato nathi"

Mumbai April 4th 1908

"Tame potana Dilma potana Roohne aetle amara Noorne juvo"


I think Imam's definitions are all that matters.

Who are you and I anyway?
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
altaf_rupani



Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 7:15 pm    Post subject: Pre-Adam and subsequent postings Reply with quote

Attn: Samsu

Again you are rumor mongering.

It has come to my knowledge that in the Kalame Imame Mubin (sultan mohd shah farmans), Musa was told to have the Noorani Deedar of Ali (Quran does mention about Musa seeing the Light (the one who compiled changed the wording to "fire", etc.). I also quoted from the Quran about the Zahiri and Noorani Deedar the holy prophet had about Allah. Every day Ismailis asks for Zahiri, Batuni and Noorani Deedar because these types of Deedar are there. It has also come to my knowledge that even the memoirs of agakhan mention this dear. So Deedar means a Deedar - zahiri batuni and noorani. So stop falsifying the Tasbih, Quran, Farman, Sultan Mohd Shah, etc.

Also the farmans of Mawlana Hazar Imam mention that one should have "clean souls". So when you are sinning the souls get impure. Stop sinning and keep a clean soul inasmuch as it has come to my knowledge that jesus christ said even the good of the good sins seven times a day and hence it is necessary that one should go to jamatkhana, ask forgiveness for their sins and keep the soul clean. Your saying that if one commits murders, robberies, rapes, etc. - this person is having a clean soul - hey, come on, you are making me sick - go by the reality and not vice versa.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
Guest






PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Pre-Adam and subsequent postings Reply with quote

altaf_rupani wrote:
Attn: Samsu

Again you are rumor mongering.

It has come to my knowledge that in the Kalame Imame Mubin (sultan mohd shah farmans), Musa was told to have the Noorani Deedar of Ali (Quran does mention about Musa seeing the Light (the one who compiled changed the wording to "fire", etc.). I also quoted from the Quran about the Zahiri and Noorani Deedar the holy prophet had about Allah. Every day Ismailis asks for Zahiri, Batuni and Noorani Deedar because these types of Deedar are there. It has also come to my knowledge that even the memoirs of agakhan mention this dear. So Deedar means a Deedar - zahiri batuni and noorani. So stop falsifying the Tasbih, Quran, Farman, Sultan Mohd Shah, etc.

Also the farmans of Mawlana Hazar Imam mention that one should have "clean souls". So when you are sinning the souls get impure. Stop sinning and keep a clean soul inasmuch as it has come to my knowledge that jesus christ said even the good of the good sins seven times a day and hence it is necessary that one should go to jamatkhana, ask forgiveness for their sins and keep the soul clean. Your saying that if one commits murders, robberies, rapes, etc. - this person is having a clean soul - hey, come on, you are making me sick - go by the reality and not vice versa.


In fact - after physical death of a person, there is prayer in the Jamatkhana to Mawlana Hazar Imam to forgive the all the souls of their sins. Samsu - stop quoting things which are false to your own knowledge and beliefs. It is possible you have done these kind of quotings in all the forum you have participated till date.
Back to top
shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 9:25 pm    Post subject: Imam SMS Reply with quote

Nairobi Oct 6 1905,

"Koi pun manas athwa Momin no insaaf karvo ae tamaro kaam nathi"


Imam defines Momin as

"Insaan uper je dookh pade cche te Momin ne sukh roop laage cche"

Mombasa Aug 14, 1905.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 9:47 pm    Post subject: Mowla Aly Reply with quote

Translation of one stanza of Kalame Mowla. Words of Mowla Aly

The beginning, the end, the manifest, the hidden,

What is seen, what is heard, all is Him

He is in everything yet above all else,

There is nothing else but Him.

Abandon the duality of you and I,

See one, there is no such thing as two,

Understand this, lose yourself in Him;

When you are not, then truly He is.


Last edited by shamsu on Wed May 07, 2003 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
Guest






PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 10:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Imam SMS Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
Nairobi Oct 6 1905,

"Koi pun manas athwa Momin no insaaf karvo ae tamaro kaam nathi"


Imam defines Momin as

"Insaan uper je dookh pade cche te Momin ne sukh roop laage cche"

Mombasa Aug 14, 1905.


If you want to quote, quote the whole farman and not a part of it and quote the farman where material is available so that the person goes through the same and verify - I have been told that sultan mohd shah farmans had numbers and you have also not mentioned the farman by the number - hey, come on. I have already demonstrated that earlier you have quoted things of your own and termed as farman of mawlana hazar imam.

regarding "manas no insaf and all that" - I have been given to understand that in the Memoirs of Agakhan the following appears - hope this answers your question :

What has been my own policy with my followers? Our religion is our religion, you either believe in it or you do not. You can leave a faith but you cannot, if you do not accept its tenets, remain within it and claim to
"reform" it. You can abandon those tenets, but you cannot try to change them and still protest that you belong to the particular sect that holds them. Many people have left the Ismaili faith, just as others have joined it throughout the ages. About a score of people out of many millions - a small group in Karachi and in India - pretended to be Ismailis but called themselves "reformers". The true Ismailis immediately excommunicated them. There has never been any question of changing the Ismaili faith, the faith has remained the same and must remain the same. Those who have not believed in it have rightly left it; we bear them no ill-will and respect them for their sincerity.

Samsu - stop rumor mongering dear.

Regarding your other posting - quran reveals "Lord is Allah" and lord, inter alia, is a human being - you can also refer to the earlier contents of the blessed Olive Tree manifest in physical form at one place and Quran also reveals one should not worship things which cannot speak nor guide not give an answer.
Back to top
shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 5:10 am    Post subject: Rooh is a Command of Allah Reply with quote

QURAN
017.085
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"
PICKTHAL: They are asking thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.
SHAKIR: And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little

As you can see in the above paragraph three translators have interpreted it 3 different ways. Some reflection will tell you that we are all from the command of our lord (Mowla=Allah). So when Imam states "My beloved spiritual children" it is supported by the Quran Ayat 17:85 translated here.

CAN SOMEONE SHED LIGHT ON DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOUL AND SPIRIT As it has been used interchangeably by SHAKIR and PICKTHAL.

Almost all the farmans I have quoted come from "Ruhani Raaz" "Ruhani Roshni" or "313". MHI Farmans are from speeches, interviews, etc.


Mr Guest, Please inform me as to when, where and what did I state about Words of Hazar Imam that is not true as I am very concerned about ever making an egregious mistake about any Farman.

You see my life is a Farman of my Imam and if I make a mistake in that It could mean that my life is going in the wrong direction and that is unacceptable to me.

I would certainly appreciate a quick reply.

Ya Aly Madad

Shams
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 5:17 am    Post subject: LOOKING AT THINGS DIFFERENTLY Reply with quote

Ya ALy Madad ALTAF RUPANI,

I have a suggestion about an intellectual exercise.

Take a few minutes and re-read this entire thread BUT, For this one time, Imagine yourself to have the screen name Shamsu and the other person as Altaf Rupani.

This helps open doors one did not even know existed.

Ya Aly Madad

Shams
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
Guest






PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 8:44 am    Post subject: Re: Rooh is a Command of Allah Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
QURAN
017.085
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"
PICKTHAL: They are asking thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.
SHAKIR: And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little

As you can see in the above paragraph three translators have interpreted it 3 different ways. Some reflection will tell you that we are all from the command of our lord (Mowla=Allah). So when Imam states "My beloved spiritual children" it is supported by the Quran Ayat 17:85 translated here.

CAN SOMEONE SHED LIGHT ON DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOUL AND SPIRIT As it has been used interchangeably by SHAKIR and PICKTHAL.

Almost all the farmans I have quoted come from "Ruhani Raaz" "Ruhani Roshni" or "313". MHI Farmans are from speeches, interviews, etc.

Mr Guest, Please inform me as to when, where and what did I state about Words of Hazar Imam that is not true as I am very concerned about ever making an egregious mistake about any Farman.

You see my life is a Farman of my Imam and if I make a mistake in that It could mean that my life is going in the wrong direction and that is unacceptable to me.

I would certainly appreciate a quick reply.

Ya Aly Madad

Shams


Hello Shamsu,

The things you quoted falsely have already been discussed - just go over the writings.

Regarding spiritual children - the ismailis are the spiritual children of Allah because he has created them from his soul. Only Allah has the right to address his spiritual children as their spiritual children.

Relevant Farman by Mawlana Hazar Imam dated Sunday, November 29, 1964 - Karachi/Pakistan - Garden Religious Night School:

Quran says Khalaqakum min nafsin wahidatin. This means that God says to you, He is addressing men and women and He says He has made you out of one soul. This means that you are at all times brothers and sisters. That he has created you from one soul and it is only if you live within this spirit, within this understanding, that you can really act as a Jamat and act as brothers and sisters, which indeed you are.

= so spiritually you and me are brothers and Hazar Imam is the parent, his spiritual children - OK, so please = no rumor mongering.


Also, Regarding Holy Spirit, Quran reveals in chapter 2 (verse 253)

Those apostles We endowed with gifts some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor); to Jesus the son of Mary [u]We gave clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the
Holy Spirit
.


For your info Jesus used to bring life into the dead, etc. and only Allah can do that - the Holy Spirit - what do you say.[/u]
Back to top
Guest






PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 3:30 am    Post subject: Re: Rooh is a Command of Allah Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
shamsu wrote:
QURAN
017.085
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"
PICKTHAL: They are asking thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.
SHAKIR: And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little

As you can see in the above paragraph three translators have interpreted it 3 different ways. Some reflection will tell you that we are all from the command of our lord (Mowla=Allah). So when Imam states "My beloved spiritual children" it is supported by the Quran Ayat 17:85 translated here.

CAN SOMEONE SHED LIGHT ON DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOUL AND SPIRIT As it has been used interchangeably by SHAKIR and PICKTHAL.

Almost all the farmans I have quoted come from "Ruhani Raaz" "Ruhani Roshni" or "313". MHI Farmans are from speeches, interviews, etc.

Mr Guest, Please inform me as to when, where and what did I state about Words of Hazar Imam that is not true as I am very concerned about ever making an egregious mistake about any Farman.

You see my life is a Farman of my Imam and if I make a mistake in that It could mean that my life is going in the wrong direction and that is unacceptable to me.

I would certainly appreciate a quick reply.

Ya Aly Madad

Shams


Hello Shamsu,

The things you quoted falsely have already been discussed - just go over the writings.

Regarding spiritual children - the ismailis are the spiritual children of Allah because he has created them from his soul. Only Allah has the right to address his spiritual children as their spiritual children.

Relevant Farman by Mawlana Hazar Imam dated Sunday, November 29, 1964 - Karachi/Pakistan - Garden Religious Night School:

Quran says Khalaqakum min nafsin wahidatin. This means that God says to you, He is addressing men and women and He says He has made you out of one soul. This means that you are at all times brothers and sisters. That he has created you from one soul and it is only if you live within this spirit, within this understanding, that you can really act as a Jamat and act as brothers and sisters, which indeed you are.

= so spiritually you and me are brothers and Hazar Imam is the parent, his spiritual children - OK, so please = no rumor mongering.


Also, Regarding Holy Spirit, Quran reveals in chapter 2 (verse 253)

Those apostles We endowed with gifts some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor); to Jesus the son of Mary [u]We gave clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the
Holy Spirit
.


For your info Jesus used to bring life into the dead, etc. and only Allah can do that - the Holy Spirit - what do you say.[/u]


Actually Allah being a Living One - Allah's History should continue and is not a full stop after the Holy Prophet Muhammed. More so, since he is the guide as per the changing times.

The below mentioned verses of the Quran, inter alia, makes it very clear that Allah had substituted one revelation for another, he had substituted for a better or similar revelations and further he calls his followers to look to what he is sending for the morrow/future. It is thus clear that during the time of the Holy Prophet Muhammed itself, Allah had changed his farmans (messages) many times to keep up with the needs of the changing times of that period:

An-Nahl, or The Bee (XVI)
101) When We substitute one revelation for another, - and, Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), - they say, "Thou art but a forger" but most of them know not.

Al- Baqara - 2
106) None of our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?

Al-Hashr, or The Gathering (or Banishment) (LIX)
1icon_cool.gif O ye who believe! fear Allah and let every soul look to what he is sending for the morrow. Yea, fear Allah: for Allah is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.
[Morrow, inter alia, means tomorrow, future, etc.]

Ad-Dukhan, or Smoke (or Mist) (XLIV)
5) By command, from Us, For We (ever) send (revelations)]

To sum up Allah is the guide as per the changing times and his guidance is required as per the changing times inasmuch as the world has ungone a very big change since the times of the Holy Prophet Muhammad. In fact, it is clear from the above that during the time of the Holy Prophet Muhammed itself, Allah had changed his farmans (messages) many times over to keep up with the needs of the changing times of that period

So, as mentioned above, Allah being a Living One - Allah's History should continue and is not a full stop after the Holy Prophet Muhammed. More so, since he is the guide as per the changing times.
Back to top
shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 8:53 pm    Post subject: Momin no ruh te amaro Ruh cche Reply with quote

KIM I Farman 146 page 311 line number 12

"Momin no Ruh te Amaro Ruh cche"



Dear Altaf Rupani I have provided you the reference number you wanted.

Would you please go ahead and confirm the farman before you edit your incorrect posts.

Ya Aly Madad

Shams
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ismaili.net Forum Index -> Pre-Adam All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.1 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group




Fatal error: Call to a member function Execute() on a non-object in /home/heritage/web/webdocs/html/includes/pnSession.php on line 400