Pre-Adam

Whatever happened before Adam
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roxy
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun May 18, 2003 10:40 pm

Re: Allah expresses his will and thought in his Farman

Post by roxy »

shamsu wrote:The KIZ 1,2,3 I sent you have a binocular icon, click on it and type in the word wish and you will see how many times mowla expresses his wishes in his Farman.

There are infinite Farmans. If you want to recognize one, look in the mirror.


I think Allah's word has all of Allah's power behind it and it is as eternal as Allah himself.

The fact is that The name of Allah is itself Allah.

That is the reason why Imam SMS has stated "Isme Azam amaro assal no NOOR cche" in BUK.

This name of Allah is written on your face. Look in the mirror and smile. If you have any knowledge of Arabic or Urdu you should see

a "c" = ain

a "l" = laam

and a small yeh that looks like a "c" the bottom of which is connected to the second arm of a wide "u".

Let me know if you see Aly in your face.

If you do, then you will know for certain that "whatever is, is Ya Aly"

Ya Aly Madad.

Shams
.
So now from the Quran when everything is made clear you diverted once again and it appears you now mean before he starts a farman he says BE and then the farman starts else it just cannot start? Even the farman has to have his BE before it starts. Where in the farman BE BE BE is there and then the farman starts shamsu ? I think you better check it yourself.
When you are not able to produce a single farman which mention that he has to say a BE BE BE BE to create a thing else it does not get created - why do you keep on continuing and continuing and diverting and diverting?

The fact is there is no BE BE BE and that is that - OK. If you cannot produce a farman with proper reference which mention that he has to say a BE BE BE BE to create a thing else it does not get created and without BE BE BE his thought and will are useless - then what you say does not hold any value.

From here you also jumpted to :-

There are infinite Farmans. If you want to recognize one, look in the mirror.

I just cannot stop laughing shamsu ....

- I think you better keep on jumping -

Shamsu - please send KIZ1,2,3 duly verified. Also the KIM2 and Khangi farmans.
shamsu
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I am not saying this the Quran is.

Post by shamsu »

Ya Aly Madad Roxy,

I am very sorry for giving you the impression that it is I who was stating that Allah creates with his word. The word for example being "BE"

It is in the Quran in multiple places. When you were quoting the Quran so much I presumed you knew this simple fact. I apologize for my error in presuming this.

Here are all the Quranic references I could find.

Here is the link I searched at.

http://www.islamicity.com/ps/default.as ... Search.asp


Al-Baqara (The Cow) [2:117]

BadeeAAu alssamawati waalardi waitha qada amran fainnama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu
To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.

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Al-Imran (The Family of Imran) [3:47]

Qalat rabbi anna yakoonu lee waladun walam yamsasnee basharun qala kathaliki Allahu yakhluqu ma yashao itha qada amran fainnama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu
She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!


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Al-Imran (The Family of Imran) [3:59]

Inna mathala AAeesa AAinda Allahi kamathali adama khalaqahu min turabin thumma qala lahu kun fayakoonu
The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

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Al-An'am (The Cattle) [6:73]

Wahuwa allathee khalaqa alssamawati waalarda bialhaqqi wayawma yaqoolu kun fayakoonu qawluhu alhaqqu walahu almulku yawma yunfakhu fee alssoori AAalimu alghaybi waalshshahadati wahuwa alhakeemu alkhabeeru
It is He who created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): the day He saith, "Be," behold! it is. His word is the truth. His will be the dominion the day the trumpet will be blown. He knoweth the unseen as well as that which is open. For He is the Wise, well acquainted (with all things).

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An-Nahl (The Bee) [16:40]

Innama qawluna lishayin itha aradnahu an naqoola lahu kun fayakoonu
For to anything which We have willed, We but say the word, "Be", and it is.

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Maryam (Mary) [19:35]

Ma kana lillahi an yattakhitha min waladin subhanahu itha qada amran fainnama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu
It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

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Ya-Sin (Ya-Sin) [36:82]

Innama amruhu itha arada shayan an yaqoola lahu kun fayakoonu
Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, "be", and it is!

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Ghafir (The Forgiver) [40:68]

Huwa allathee yuhyee wayumeetu faitha qada amran fainnama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu
It is He Who gives Life and Death; and when He decides upon an affair, He says to it, "Be", and it is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again,

Ya Aly Madad roxy,

Shams
roxy
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun May 18, 2003 10:40 pm

Re: I am not saying this the Quran is.

Post by roxy »

Shamsu -

You mention:
It is in the Quran in multiple places. When you were quoting the Quran so much I presumed you knew this simple fact.
------------------
And you kept on and on with the BE BE BE even after I gave reply from the quran verses that it is not BE BE BE.

You should have followed the Best you know :

Az-Zumar, or the Groups (XXXIX)
55) "And follow the Best that which was revealed to you from your Lord, before the Chastisement comes to you - of a sudden, while ye perceive not!-

There are many verses appearing in the Quran which ascribe that Allah took partners in the form of his own creation such as clay and what not while creating a human being. So will you go on and on ascribing that Allah took partners in the form of his own creation while creating a human being?
shamsu
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Kun

Post by shamsu »

8 ayats state it in the Quran and it is very important to understand that the Hand of God is not any different from God and the word of God is similarly no different from God himself.

The corollary to that indicates that all of creation is no different from the creator when it exists as per his Farman.


Ya Aly Madad,

shamsu
star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

Hazrat Mohammad [PBUH] said that

God made this world on Saturday.

On Sunday He made mountains

On Monday He made trees.

On Tuesday He made big things.

On Wednesday He made light

On Thursday He made animals

On Friday He made Hazrat Adam


In SiriLanka there is a mountain on which there is foot print of Hazrat Adam.
bigmak
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Location: USA

Post by bigmak »

Imam Sultan Muhd Shah has state in his memoirs that creation is not unique, but a continous and perpetual act.  This means that creation has and will always be there/here.
Aliflammeem
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Post by Aliflammeem »

<P>Sorry for my intruption.&nbsp; I think we can solve this problem very easily if we think about nufs.</P>
Aliflammeem
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where does God say that in Quran?

Post by Aliflammeem »

star_munir wrote:Hazrat Mohammad [PBUH] said that

God made this world on Saturday.

On Sunday He made mountains

On Monday He made trees.

On Tuesday He made big things.

On Wednesday He made light

On Thursday He made animals

On Friday He made Hazrat Adam


In SiriLanka there is a mountain on which there is foot print of Hazrat Adam.
Where is it in Quran?
Aliflammeem
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 2:09 pm

What is this?

Post by Aliflammeem »

bigmak wrote:Imam Sultan Muhd Shah has state in his memoirs that creation is not unique, but a continous and perpetual act.&nbsp; This means that creation has and will always be there/here.

Are we looking into Quran for proofs or someone else? That mean we are not talking about words of God but some Imam.
Aliflammeem
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Please give refrence

Post by Aliflammeem »

shamsu wrote:8 ayats state it in the Quran and it is very important to understand that the Hand of God is not any different from God and the word of God is similarly no different from God himself.

The corollary to that indicates that all of creation is no different from the creator when it exists as per his Farman.


Ya Aly Madad,

shamsu
Please mention where these 8 ayats are i have never noticed. Help
Aliflammeem
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Ruh and Nufs

Post by Aliflammeem »

Can someone please tell me what is Ruh and Nufs? What are the differences in them? Please give refrences from Quran.
hamida777
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just wondering...........

Post by hamida777 »

ya ali madad just was wondering that we all have come from prophet adam (pbuh).... rite? then how come there are&nbsp; different colours of people&nbsp;in the world whites blacks n browns?????????
kmaherali
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Re: just wondering...........

Post by kmaherali »

hamida777 wrote:ya ali madad just was wondering that we all have come from prophet adam (pbuh).... rite? then how come there are&nbsp; different colours of people&nbsp;in the world whites blacks n browns?????????
Adam is the symbolic first person. Prophet Adam was not the first person. People acquired different physical characteristics due to migration into different lands with different climates. If a person who has lived in a cold climate, moved to a sunny place, he is likely to become darker over time.

Also having people of different characteristics makes this world an interesting place, otherwise it can be boring.
hamida777
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Re: just wondering...........

Post by hamida777 »

tats true tat different people indeed make the world more interesting but still it does not answer my question...... no one can change sooo much that a indian can become chinesss with time.... i think its not tooo logical.....
Heiswithinme
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Re: just wondering...........

Post by Heiswithinme »

tats true tat different people indeed make the world more interesting but still it does not answer my question...... no o&shy;ne can change sooo much that a indian can become chinesss with time.... i think its not tooo logical.....

Studying evolution might help...To anyone... how do I disable these tags?
Last edited by Heiswithinme on Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Heiswithinme
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Re: Pre-Adam and subsequent emails

Post by Heiswithinme »

shamsu wrote:
roxy wrote:Creation of Allah - No Allah did not create anything with his word.

You can see there are millions and millions of birth taking place each day - not just human beings, but animals, birds, insects, mud, stone, computers, airplanes, shoes, snakes, fish, monkeys, lions, tigers, elephants, hundreds of types of insects and what not - and there are just 24 hours in a day - do you think Allah has the time for giving his word to each and every creation ? I do not think so and as far as I am concerned creation is by though and by his will and not by word - more so, since God is o&shy;ne and there are millions of each creation per day and physically God just cannot create millions of things per day in a physical sense by speaking. To add to this creation is at different places in the world - so do you think god must be doing a lot of running around the world saying BE, BE, BE, .... or he must be saying "BE" an animal in India at so and so place, "BE" a human being in USA at so and so place, "BE" a fish in the water at so and so place - "BE" an egg in Europe at so and so place. How can only BE be sufficient. So here o&shy;nly BE is not sufficient - BE but what BE ?
Roxy
When we live in time and space and try to understand that which is above all else with our limited Human Intellect which is itself a creation of Allah, this type of post is what results.

The concept of a limited human intellect being able to understanding God is inherently flawed.

Our entire existence is contingent upon him and He is completely independent of all else.

He is above and beyond our highest evolved thought. Al- Mutaali is o&shy;ne of the Names of Allah. Along with As-Samad and Al-Ahad.

We have lived our entire lives in the realm of time, Eternity is a concept we cannot even fathom.

The humility required in this search comes as you progress in it and eventually realize that you are so insignificant against his Vastness that you give up your Identity in the process and become fana (annihilated).

"Mai aur tu ki doori cchor, Ek dekh kuch do nahin<BR>Aisa samaj fana ho usme, tu nahi to woh sahi hai.

Think of a bubble floating in the air. What comparison is the air inside it to the rest of the atmosphere.

The bubble cannot even fathom the vastness of the atmosphere of this earth.

Now, when the bubble bursts it becomes o&shy;ne with the atmosphere. The only thing between its identity and the Vast Air around it was it's identity itself.

This example is a MINUSCULE one compared to the vastness of Allah and our limited selves.

I believe the search to be to recognize the self and discover that our identity is in fact nothing but a spiritual delusion. (A false belief that we exist as seperate from Allah)

The waves in the Ocean may think themselves to be seperate from the ocean and argue with each other o&shy;n the Forums of Ismaili.net but they were never, are not and never will be seperated from the Vast Limitless Ocean of Allah.

So let us progress towards discovering self instead of trying to Understand Him, Who defies Human understanding as he is above and beyond the Human Imagination.


Excellent post Shamsu... especially the bubble example in terms of understanding the concept of Fana Fillah. To those who are seeking all the answers about the Ismaili faith from Quran alone will be greatly disappointed. Quran is the true word of Allah but is incomplete and even then, it is written in allegories so we cannot take everything at it's face value. That is where the farmans of our Holy Imams and holy ginans come in and clear any misconceptions. Our Imam is the speaking Quran Himself so His word is superior to that of the Quran. Shamsu, your knowledge regarding the farmas and ginans is very vast and I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts.
Last edited by Heiswithinme on Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
kmaherali
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Re: just wondering...........

Post by kmaherali »

Heiswithinme wrote:Studying evolution might help...To anyone... how do I disable these tags?
Click the edit mode and delete them!
Ali77
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Re: Pre-Adam

Post by Ali77 »

Such ideas according to which God created universe on a specific time IMAM SULTAN MUHAMMAD SHAH(SA) said that this is the jewish idea of creation moula in that farman said that creation is perpetual and eternal on other occation moula said" IF U ASK ME A THOUSAND TIME WHAT WAS BEFORE ADAM MY ANS. WILL BE "ADAM" this is the ismaili point of view on on creation and pre adam if u read fatimids priod dais it wil becom clear that there is no begning and no ending in creation and there is creation after creation so if u think that there was a time when God created nothing it means that at that time he was not KHALIQ. not RAZIQ ,RAHMAN, GHAFUR etc and if so God and his acts become accidental and a thing which is accidental HADIS according to our dais can not be God. God and his every action is QADEEM eternal.
for more understanding read PIR NASIR KHUSROW'S 'GHUSHAISH WA REHAISH' which is published by Institute of ismaile studies london Titled Knowleged and libration'

ameer_hunzai@hotmail.com
Ameer Ali
hamida777
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Re: Pre-Adam

Post by hamida777 »

ali77 thanks for quotin the farman of SMS it makes things about creation very clear........... this is a thought i got after reading it that adam repesents one of each kind i guess leading to the fundermental tat is tawhid...oneness and unity...... would like to know more bout creation and ismaili point of view......
Ali77
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Re: Pre-Adam

Post by Ali77 »

hamida777 wrote:ali77 thanks for quotin the farman of SMS it makes things about creation very clear........... this is a thought i got after reading it that adam repesents o&shy;ne of each kind i guess leading to the fundermental tat is tawhid...oneness and unity...... would like to know more bout creation and ismaili point of view......
hammida777 thanks. it is stated in " Tarikh e ibn e khaldoon " page 542 about brith of prophet muhammad that it took place 7000 thousands years after adam. this hadith is narrated by abdullah ibn abbaas . then think logicaly about this hadith and other narations in all religion(chirstanity,jews and in islam) according to which adam is about 7000-10,000 years old then how we can explan the research according to which farming started about 20,000 to 25,0000 BC.and there are pictographys about 50,000 bc . thats y in our islmaili literature there is the concept of cycle and each cycle in about 7000 year and the adam who was at 7000 bc called "Adam e sarandibe" = adam of sirlanka. and adam was not his name but title thats y we say Adam e zaman to mola hazir imam. in short there is creation whiout begning and endding creation in one sens there is begning and endding but as a whole this continous for ever such as day and night starts and end in one sens on other this cycle never ends.as far as tawhid this is explan by our dais in different angal in which God is above existance and non existance "hasti o nisti"
Norm
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The word "GOD"

Post by Norm »

The word "GOD" derives from the German word "GOTT" which means "King of Wisdom"

According to a 1998 Billy Meier interview:
...No Creator-God exists in this sense. The Big Bang did not come about through the strength or might of one god, but did so, simply and exclusively, through spiritual- and material-physical as well as chemical processes, that were triggered and directed by a young Universal Consciousness, respectively Creation. The term "God" has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the creation of the world or the universe, stars, galaxies and the like, for the expression "God" has existed in the vastness of the universe for billions of years, from ancient times to the present, and it represents nothing more than the title of a person. Initially this title was "Ishwish" which means "God" when translated into our languages. But Ishwish, respectively god, is nothing more than another term for "King of Wisdom." It is a purely human title assigned to humans who were particularly knowledgeable, wise, and who possessed great mastery in everything. This term's significance, however, was distorted and falsified by humans on Earth, particularly by the early religions and those experienced in profiting from using the word. The result was that God, as a King of Wisdom, was removed and the people turned him into a Creator-God who, allegedly, had created the Earth, the sun and outer space. Numerous individuals, such as Jehovah and many others, even claimed of themselves to be Creator-Gods with the consequence that they were also revered and worshiped. One thing led to another and soon the original meaning of the word "God" was forgotten and, consequently, the purported Creator-Gods were able to victoriously march into the realm of the people's religions, sects and faiths.
Quote from The Psyche (book):
The word GOD, from time immemorial, has been used as a designation for human beings who, because of their spiritual and consciousness-based powers and their abilities resulting from them, were able to master and accomplish things which remained denied to kings and emperors.

Because of their abilities, these human beings were consequently named GODS or GODDESSES, which means nothing other than 'standing above the emperors and kings' (spiritually and in a consciousness-based manner).

Standing higher in esteem and honour than the princes of the land and the sovereigns themselves, those named gods were asked for advice by these and by the people alike and were revered as human beings with tremendous knowledge and spiritual, as well as consciousness-based ability.....

.....However, it would be false, presumptuous and irresponsible to name this Creation GOD because the Creation is neither God nor anything similar....
Quote from Goblet of the Truth (book):
p. 509

105) The destiny which you determine yourselves through your thoughts and feelings, through your activity and your actions and deeds is based on consequences, i.e. effects which you yourselves create through distinct causes and which you then have to bear as your destiny, both in the good as in the evil.

108) Each destiny and each interaction is thus preceded by your own free and willing decision, and this means that with each first decision and volition you create something each time which manifests itself to you as interaction and destiny; therefore, you will, sooner or later, have to live in what you today determinatively create through your thoughts and feelings, through your activity and through your deeds and actions and out of which you will inevitably have to bear the consequences when you are struck by it, that is by the destiny.
Quote from Arahat Athersata (book)
p. 144

554. Therefore, the truth is only intended for those who recognize all harshness and bitterness of the truth and the words that announce it, and who are able to process and evaluate it.

555. All others are not yet ripe enough for it and must become developed in lengthy clarification-work for the understanding of the truth.

562. And because this is so, it is the highest obligation of all those even only the half-way knowing ones, wherever willing ears are, to scatter the seeds of the Teaching Of The Spirit and to support the work of those who announce harsh and bitter words of the truth.
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

The name of thread is PRE ADAM means before Adam.
Why God made statue of Adam when there were thousands of Adam created before. God already had models of previous Adams then what forced Him to make a new model. Were those models defective or He disliked them? Why the brain of that new Adam was not creative and innovative say 6000 years back in the beginning. Looks like God has kept modifying brain of children of Adam, installing new chips, modified tiny brain computers, creating new brain cells, increasing power of brain memory. God is not satisfied with humans, they are pain in neck!!
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote:The name of thread is PRE ADAM means before Adam.
Why God made statue of Adam when there were thousands of Adam created before.
The statue does not refer to Hazarat Adam. What makes you say that God created statues for all the Adams?
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:The name of thread is PRE ADAM means before Adam.
Why God made statue of Adam when there were thousands of Adam created before.
The statue does not refer to Hazarat Adam. What makes you say that God created statues for all the Adams?
In a Hadith Qudsi, God has said," I kneaded the clay of Adam's creation with both My hands every morning for fort days".
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: In a Hadith Qudsi, God has said," I kneaded the clay of Adam's creation with both My hands every morning for fort days".
How can you say that it was Hazarat Adam from the hadith you have quoted?
Admin
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Post by Admin »

In his Farman, Aga Ali Shah says of these 40 days, 40 days, the clay was plunged into the water of hell and 40 days into the water of heaven. Such a symbolism!
Last edited by Admin on Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: In a Hadith Qudsi, God has said," I kneaded the clay of Adam's creation with both My hands every morning for fort days".
How can you say that it was Hazarat Adam from the hadith you have quoted?
On the reference of Quran and Old Testament.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: On the reference of Quran and Old Testament.
Provide them please!
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: On the reference of Quran and Old Testament.
Provide them please!
Al Quran:
“And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: ‘I am going to create a human (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.” (Quran 38:71-72)

Indeed, the example of Jesus in the sight of Allah is like that of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him, “Be!” And he was! 3:59


He (Iblis) said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay." 38:76

The Bible:
There are several instances given in the Bible referring to clay. In Job 33:6 it states: I also am formed out of the clay.

Another passage that refers to clay is found in Isaiah 64:8: But now, 0 Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

None of the above verses imply that it was Hazarat Adam, the first Prophet in the present cycle.

The Adam referred to in your references is the first man, unless of course you are implying that the first man was created 7000 years ago.
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