www.ismaili.net

"Rooh is the command of Allah" - does not match here. The problem with all these is the Quran was not copied from the Original Book of Allah (Quran) - in fact, this original book of Allah was rejected by those compiling the Quran. For example, you find that people used to come morning and evening and seek the face of the Lord. In fact, the message of the Quran was people should seek the face of the Lord morning and evening. The fact that people used to come morning and evening to seek the face of the Lord clearly reveals that the Holy Prophet had revealed who the Lord is which does not appear in the Quran.

Actually this "inspiration" comes from Allah directly. Allah guides his followers through his Noor.

Attn: Samsu

It appears I missed out your post regarding Deedar.

For your info, Deedar are of three kinds : Zahiri Deedar, Batuni Deedar and Noorani Deedar.

In other words, Deedar means a Deedar.

The Holy Prophet's Deedar of Allah and His Light [Noor] (greater revelations of his Lord)
----------------------------------------------------------
Quran reveals

An-Najm, or the Star (LIII)
-------------------------------
2) Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.
3) Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) desire.
6) Endued with Wisdom: for he appeared (in stately form)
in other words
6) One vigorous; and he grew clear to view.
7) While he was in the highest part of the horizon:
Then he approached and came closer,
9) And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer;
10) So did (Allah) convey the inspiration to His Servant - (conveyed) what
He (meant) to convey.
11) The (Prophet's) (mind and) heart in no way falsified that which he saw.
12) Will ye then dispute with him concerning what he saw?
13) For indeed he saw him at a second descent,
in other words
13) And verily he saw him yet another time.
17) (His) sight never swerved, nor did it go wrong!
in other words
17) The eye turned not aside nor yet was overbold.
18) For truly did he see, of the Signs of his Lord, the Greatest!
in other words
18) Verily he saw one of the greater revelations of his Lord

Attn: Samsu

Please let me know when did the Imam mention "Soul of Momin and Imam is One". If in gujrati language the word "Momin" is a follower then please note the soul gets corrupted and hence the soul of Imam and the Momin cannot be one when the Momin is alive on earth - because the Momin while on earth continues to sin and to wipe out the sin the Momin has to come to jamatkhana, pray for forgiveness to the Imam, etc. etc. I think what you say is the plain rumor mongering just as you mentioned above olives and the Imam.

Also, as mentioned in earlier email, the "holy spirit" refers to the Noor = what do you say ?

Anonymous wrote:Attn: Samsu

It appears I missed out your post regarding Deedar.

For your info, Deedar are of three kinds : Zahiri Deedar, Batuni Deedar and Noorani Deedar.

In other words, Deedar means a Deedar.

The Holy Prophet's Deedar of Allah and His Light [Noor] (greater revelations of his Lord)
----------------------------------------------------------
Quran reveals

An-Najm, or the Star (LIII)
-------------------------------
2) Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.
3) Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) desire.
6) Endued with Wisdom: for he appeared (in stately form)
in other words
6) One vigorous; and he grew clear to view.
7) While he was in the highest part of the horizon:
Then he approached and came closer,
9) And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer;
10) So did (Allah) convey the inspiration to His Servant - (conveyed) what
He (meant) to convey.
11) The (Prophet's) (mind and) heart in no way falsified that which he saw.
12) Will ye then dispute with him concerning what he saw?
13) For indeed he saw him at a second descent,
in other words
13) And verily he saw him yet another time.
17) (His) sight never swerved, nor did it go wrong!
in other words
17) The eye turned not aside nor yet was overbold.
18) For truly did he see, of the Signs of his Lord, the Greatest!
in other words
18) Verily he saw one of the greater revelations of his Lord

Ginan reference "Shah dekhe, shah ko koi koi dekhe"

The ayat above talks about seeing with the heart.

If you think deedar involves physical eyes then I think you need to reflect some more on things like "Eye of the Intellect" and the Farman about "Farman cchodi ne badnajar thi joso to dil ni ankho andhdi thai jase...."

altaf_rupani wrote:Attn: Samsu

Please let me know when did the Imam mention "Soul of Momin and Imam is One". If in gujrati language the word "Momin" is a follower then please note the soul gets corrupted and hence the soul of Imam and the Momin cannot be one when the Momin is alive on earth - because the Momin while on earth continues to sin and to wipe out the sin the Momin has to come to jamatkhana, pray for forgiveness to the Imam, etc. etc. I think what you say is the plain rumor mongering just as you mentioned above olives and the Imam.

Also, as mentioned in earlier email, the "holy spirit" refers to the Noor = what do you say ?

Rajkot Feb 20 1910

"Momin no Rooh te Amaro Rooh cche..."

Nairobi Oct 4 1905

"Jaherima manasnu badan napaak thai che pun Rooh napaak thato nathi"

Mumbai April 4th 1908

"Tame potana Dilma potana Roohne aetle amara Noorne juvo"


I think Imam's definitions are all that matters.

Who are you and I anyway?

Attn: Samsu

Again you are rumor mongering.

It has come to my knowledge that in the Kalame Imame Mubin (sultan mohd shah farmans), Musa was told to have the Noorani Deedar of Ali (Quran does mention about Musa seeing the Light (the one who compiled changed the wording to "fire", etc.). I also quoted from the Quran about the Zahiri and Noorani Deedar the holy prophet had about Allah. Every day Ismailis asks for Zahiri, Batuni and Noorani Deedar because these types of Deedar are there. It has also come to my knowledge that even the memoirs of agakhan mention this dear. So Deedar means a Deedar - zahiri batuni and noorani. So stop falsifying the Tasbih, Quran, Farman, Sultan Mohd Shah, etc.

Also the farmans of Mawlana Hazar Imam mention that one should have "clean souls". So when you are sinning the souls get impure. Stop sinning and keep a clean soul inasmuch as it has come to my knowledge that jesus christ said even the good of the good sins seven times a day and hence it is necessary that one should go to jamatkhana, ask forgiveness for their sins and keep the soul clean. Your saying that if one commits murders, robberies, rapes, etc. - this person is having a clean soul - hey, come on, you are making me sick - go by the reality and not vice versa.

altaf_rupani wrote:Attn: Samsu

Again you are rumor mongering.

It has come to my knowledge that in the Kalame Imame Mubin (sultan mohd shah farmans), Musa was told to have the Noorani Deedar of Ali (Quran does mention about Musa seeing the Light (the one who compiled changed the wording to "fire", etc.). I also quoted from the Quran about the Zahiri and Noorani Deedar the holy prophet had about Allah. Every day Ismailis asks for Zahiri, Batuni and Noorani Deedar because these types of Deedar are there. It has also come to my knowledge that even the memoirs of agakhan mention this dear. So Deedar means a Deedar - zahiri batuni and noorani. So stop falsifying the Tasbih, Quran, Farman, Sultan Mohd Shah, etc.

Also the farmans of Mawlana Hazar Imam mention that one should have "clean souls". So when you are sinning the souls get impure. Stop sinning and keep a clean soul inasmuch as it has come to my knowledge that jesus christ said even the good of the good sins seven times a day and hence it is necessary that one should go to jamatkhana, ask forgiveness for their sins and keep the soul clean. Your saying that if one commits murders, robberies, rapes, etc. - this person is having a clean soul - hey, come on, you are making me sick - go by the reality and not vice versa.

In fact - after physical death of a person, there is prayer in the Jamatkhana to Mawlana Hazar Imam to forgive the all the souls of their sins. Samsu - stop quoting things which are false to your own knowledge and beliefs. It is possible you have done these kind of quotings in all the forum you have participated till date.

Nairobi Oct 6 1905,

"Koi pun manas athwa Momin no insaaf karvo ae tamaro kaam nathi"


Imam defines Momin as

"Insaan uper je dookh pade cche te Momin ne sukh roop laage cche"

Mombasa Aug 14, 1905.

Translation of one stanza of Kalame Mowla. Words of Mowla Aly

The beginning, the end, the manifest, the hidden,

What is seen, what is heard, all is Him

He is in everything yet above all else,

There is nothing else but Him.

Abandon the duality of you and I,

See one, there is no such thing as two,

Understand this, lose yourself in Him;

When you are not, then truly He is.

shamsu wrote:Nairobi Oct 6 1905,

"Koi pun manas athwa Momin no insaaf karvo ae tamaro kaam nathi"


Imam defines Momin as

"Insaan uper je dookh pade cche te Momin ne sukh roop laage cche"

Mombasa Aug 14, 1905.

If you want to quote, quote the whole farman and not a part of it and quote the farman where material is available so that the person goes through the same and verify - I have been told that sultan mohd shah farmans had numbers and you have also not mentioned the farman by the number - hey, come on. I have already demonstrated that earlier you have quoted things of your own and termed as farman of mawlana hazar imam.

regarding "manas no insaf and all that" - I have been given to understand that in the Memoirs of Agakhan the following appears - hope this answers your question :

What has been my own policy with my followers? Our religion is our religion, you either believe in it or you do not. You can leave a faith but you cannot, if you do not accept its tenets, remain within it and claim to
"reform" it. You can abandon those tenets, but you cannot try to change them and still protest that you belong to the particular sect that holds them. Many people have left the Ismaili faith, just as others have joined it throughout the ages. About a score of people out of many millions - a small group in Karachi and in India - pretended to be Ismailis but called themselves "reformers". The true Ismailis immediately excommunicated them. There has never been any question of changing the Ismaili faith, the faith has remained the same and must remain the same. Those who have not believed in it have rightly left it; we bear them no ill-will and respect them for their sincerity.

Samsu - stop rumor mongering dear.

Regarding your other posting - quran reveals "Lord is Allah" and lord, inter alia, is a human being - you can also refer to the earlier contents of the blessed Olive Tree manifest in physical form at one place and Quran also reveals one should not worship things which cannot speak nor guide not give an answer.

QURAN
017.085
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"
PICKTHAL: They are asking thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.
SHAKIR: And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little

As you can see in the above paragraph three translators have interpreted it 3 different ways. Some reflection will tell you that we are all from the command of our lord (Mowla=Allah). So when Imam states "My beloved spiritual children" it is supported by the Quran Ayat 17:85 translated here.

CAN SOMEONE SHED LIGHT ON DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOUL AND SPIRIT As it has been used interchangeably by SHAKIR and PICKTHAL.

Almost all the farmans I have quoted come from "Ruhani Raaz" "Ruhani Roshni" or "313". MHI Farmans are from speeches, interviews, etc.


Mr Guest, Please inform me as to when, where and what did I state about Words of Hazar Imam that is not true as I am very concerned about ever making an egregious mistake about any Farman.

You see my life is a Farman of my Imam and if I make a mistake in that It could mean that my life is going in the wrong direction and that is unacceptable to me.

I would certainly appreciate a quick reply.

Ya Aly Madad

Shams

Ya ALy Madad ALTAF RUPANI,

I have a suggestion about an intellectual exercise.

Take a few minutes and re-read this entire thread BUT, For this one time, Imagine yourself to have the screen name Shamsu and the other person as Altaf Rupani.

This helps open doors one did not even know existed.

Ya Aly Madad

Shams

shamsu wrote:QURAN
017.085
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"
PICKTHAL: They are asking thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.
SHAKIR: And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little

As you can see in the above paragraph three translators have interpreted it 3 different ways. Some reflection will tell you that we are all from the command of our lord (Mowla=Allah). So when Imam states "My beloved spiritual children" it is supported by the Quran Ayat 17:85 translated here.

CAN SOMEONE SHED LIGHT ON DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOUL AND SPIRIT As it has been used interchangeably by SHAKIR and PICKTHAL.

Almost all the farmans I have quoted come from "Ruhani Raaz" "Ruhani Roshni" or "313". MHI Farmans are from speeches, interviews, etc.

Mr Guest, Please inform me as to when, where and what did I state about Words of Hazar Imam that is not true as I am very concerned about ever making an egregious mistake about any Farman.

You see my life is a Farman of my Imam and if I make a mistake in that It could mean that my life is going in the wrong direction and that is unacceptable to me.

I would certainly appreciate a quick reply.

Ya Aly Madad

Shams

Hello Shamsu,

The things you quoted falsely have already been discussed - just go over the writings.

Regarding spiritual children - the ismailis are the spiritual children of Allah because he has created them from his soul. Only Allah has the right to address his spiritual children as their spiritual children.

Relevant Farman by Mawlana Hazar Imam dated Sunday, November 29, 1964 - Karachi/Pakistan - Garden Religious Night School:

Quran says Khalaqakum min nafsin wahidatin. This means that God says to you, He is addressing men and women and He says He has made you out of one soul. This means that you are at all times brothers and sisters. That he has created you from one soul and it is only if you live within this spirit, within this understanding, that you can really act as a Jamat and act as brothers and sisters, which indeed you are.

= so spiritually you and me are brothers and Hazar Imam is the parent, his spiritual children - OK, so please = no rumor mongering.


Also, Regarding Holy Spirit, Quran reveals in chapter 2 (verse 253)

Those apostles We endowed with gifts some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the
Holy Spirit.

For your info Jesus used to bring life into the dead, etc. and only Allah can do that - the Holy Spirit - what do you say.

Anonymous wrote:

shamsu wrote:QURAN
017.085
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"
PICKTHAL: They are asking thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.
SHAKIR: And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little

As you can see in the above paragraph three translators have interpreted it 3 different ways. Some reflection will tell you that we are all from the command of our lord (Mowla=Allah). So when Imam states "My beloved spiritual children" it is supported by the Quran Ayat 17:85 translated here.

CAN SOMEONE SHED LIGHT ON DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOUL AND SPIRIT As it has been used interchangeably by SHAKIR and PICKTHAL.

Almost all the farmans I have quoted come from "Ruhani Raaz" "Ruhani Roshni" or "313". MHI Farmans are from speeches, interviews, etc.

Mr Guest, Please inform me as to when, where and what did I state about Words of Hazar Imam that is not true as I am very concerned about ever making an egregious mistake about any Farman.

You see my life is a Farman of my Imam and if I make a mistake in that It could mean that my life is going in the wrong direction and that is unacceptable to me.

I would certainly appreciate a quick reply.

Ya Aly Madad

Shams

Hello Shamsu,

The things you quoted falsely have already been discussed - just go over the writings.

Regarding spiritual children - the ismailis are the spiritual children of Allah because he has created them from his soul. Only Allah has the right to address his spiritual children as their spiritual children.

Relevant Farman by Mawlana Hazar Imam dated Sunday, November 29, 1964 - Karachi/Pakistan - Garden Religious Night School:

Quran says Khalaqakum min nafsin wahidatin. This means that God says to you, He is addressing men and women and He says He has made you out of one soul. This means that you are at all times brothers and sisters. That he has created you from one soul and it is only if you live within this spirit, within this understanding, that you can really act as a Jamat and act as brothers and sisters, which indeed you are.

= so spiritually you and me are brothers and Hazar Imam is the parent, his spiritual children - OK, so please = no rumor mongering.


Also, Regarding Holy Spirit, Quran reveals in chapter 2 (verse 253)

Those apostles We endowed with gifts some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the
Holy Spirit.

For your info Jesus used to bring life into the dead, etc. and only Allah can do that - the Holy Spirit - what do you say.

Actually Allah being a Living One - Allah's History should continue and is not a full stop after the Holy Prophet Muhammed. More so, since he is the guide as per the changing times.

The below mentioned verses of the Quran, inter alia, makes it very clear that Allah had substituted one revelation for another, he had substituted for a better or similar revelations and further he calls his followers to look to what he is sending for the morrow/future. It is thus clear that during the time of the Holy Prophet Muhammed itself, Allah had changed his farmans (messages) many times to keep up with the needs of the changing times of that period:

An-Nahl, or The Bee (XVI)
101) When We substitute one revelation for another, - and, Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), - they say, "Thou art but a forger" but most of them know not.

Al- Baqara - 2
106) None of our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?

Al-Hashr, or The Gathering (or Banishment) (LIX)
18) O ye who believe! fear Allah and let every soul look to what he is sending for the morrow. Yea, fear Allah: for Allah is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.
[Morrow, inter alia, means tomorrow, future, etc.]

Ad-Dukhan, or Smoke (or Mist) (XLIV)
5) By command, from Us, For We (ever) send (revelations)]

To sum up Allah is the guide as per the changing times and his guidance is required as per the changing times inasmuch as the world has ungone a very big change since the times of the Holy Prophet Muhammad. In fact, it is clear from the above that during the time of the Holy Prophet Muhammed itself, Allah had changed his farmans (messages) many times over to keep up with the needs of the changing times of that period

So, as mentioned above, Allah being a Living One - Allah's History should continue and is not a full stop after the Holy Prophet Muhammed. More so, since he is the guide as per the changing times.

KIM I Farman 146 page 311 line number 12

"Momin no Ruh te Amaro Ruh cche"


Dear Altaf Rupani I have provided you the reference number you wanted.

Would you please go ahead and confirm the farman before you edit your incorrect posts.

Ya Aly Madad

Shams

49th Imam

Now, you cannot turn to prayer only when times are difficult, you must pray when times are well. You must pray, every single one of you, because this will give you the humanity which you must have. (13.)
For hundreds of years, my spiritual children have been guided by the rope of Imamat. (14.)

You have looked to the Imam of the Age for advice and help in all matters and through your Imam's immense love and affection for his spiritual children, his NOOR has indicated to you where and in which direction you must turn, so as to obtain spiritual and worldly satisfaction. (15.)

shamsu wrote:49th Imam

Now, you cannot turn to prayer only when times are difficult, you must pray when times are well. You must pray, every single one of you, because this will give you the humanity which you must have. (13.)
For hundreds of years, my spiritual children have been guided by the rope of Imamat. (14.)

You have looked to the Imam of the Age for advice and help in all matters and through your Imam's immense love and affection for his spiritual children, his NOOR has indicated to you where and in which direction you must turn, so as to obtain spiritual and worldly satisfaction. (15.)

Shamsu - you did not give a proper reference here - date of farman, place, etc. to enable people verify the contents
======================
Noor is Light and I have earlier already quoted this from the farman giving proper reference. Natually - one get's the "ishaara" - the spark of light is in everyone. Regarding this Ishaara - you can refer to the farman number you yourself quoted earlier - i.e. sultan mohd shah farman. Here also it clearly mentions that the Noor "INDICATES".

So stop saying that Farman is Noor - stop your rumor mongering business. Farman is a Farman and a Noor is a Noor. Noor is not a farman. Farman is a guidance and those who follow the farmans are guided by His Noor. These true followers also receive the deedar of his Noor - OK. I have already quoted about the Noorani deedar taking into account farman and the quran. In fact, Sultan Mohd in his farmans, according to the needs of the relevant time, said read the farmans so and so - if you want the number I will try to arrange this and post it. Do you mean to say you can read the "Noor". Even the Quran mention that Quran (message of Allah) is guidance and not the Noor.

One experiences this "inspiration" or "Ishaara" or "indication" when one, inter alia, has faith in him, follow the farmans and when one who has a habit of saying false things about the farmans and the ginans - stops this bad habit and start living cleanly.

shamsu wrote:KIM I Farman 146 page 311 line number 12

"Momin no Ruh te Amaro Ruh cche"


Dear Altaf Rupani I have provided you the reference number you wanted.

Would you please go ahead and confirm the farman before you edit your incorrect posts.

Ya Aly Madad

Shams

The Id is altaf_rupani - the name is not Altaf Rupani. This has been made clear earlier by the person having ID altaf_rupani.

It has already been discussed that Allah has created from his own soul. So the soul is of the Imam. In fact I even quoted the farman of Mawlana Hazar Imam - the Arabic and the Meaning.

Ya Aly Madad altaf rupani, I have a few questions for you.

ALLAH is Noor. Is that right?

If you say yes, then please explain how anything that comes from light, be different from light.


Do Farmans enlighten us?

Please explain how anything other than light cause enlightenment.

shamsu wrote:Ya Aly Madad altaf rupani, I have a few questions for you.

ALLAH is Noor. Is that right?

If you say yes, then please explain how anything that comes from light, be different from light.


Do Farmans enlighten us?

Please explain how anything other than light cause enlightenment.

Allah is Noor + Human Being and not just the Noor. You are wrong here itself - we already discussed the parable of His Noor - the oil of the blessed Olive Tree lights the lamp of understanding.

You mention do Farmans enlighten us ?
You have read the books you mention but you are not enlighten. In fact you quoted things of your own and termed as farmans and ginans - from where you got the "50,000" and "Adams" when there is no mention of it in the Ginan - the aql you translated as breathing. You either go as per the farmans or you do not - it is your choice. If you do not follow the farmans of the Imam/Lord/God you are the loser not the Imam/Lord/God.

When you do not follow the farmans - the light will not enlighten you and your various postings demonstrates this.

Anonymous wrote:

shamsu wrote:Ya Aly Madad altaf rupani, I have a few questions for you.

ALLAH is Noor. Is that right?

If you say yes, then please explain how anything that comes from light, be different from light.


Do Farmans enlighten us?

Please explain how anything other than light cause enlightenment.

Allah is Noor + Human Being and not just the Noor. You are wrong here itself - we already discussed the parable of His Noor - the oil of the blessed Olive Tree lights the lamp of understanding.

You mention do Farmans enlighten us ?
You have read the books you mention but you are not enlighten. In fact you quoted things of your own and termed as farmans and ginans - from where you got the "50,000" and "Adams" when there is no mention of it in the Ginan - the aql you translated as breathing. You either go as per the farmans or you do not - it is your choice. If you do not follow the farmans of the Imam/Lord/God you are the loser not the Imam/Lord/God.

When you do not follow the farmans - the light will not enlighten you and your various postings demonstrates this.

An-Nur, or Light (XXIV)
40) Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! For any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!

Hope this message is clear to you Shamsu.

Allah knows who are his followers and who are not - he will enlighten his followers and not vice versa.

Aql is obviously Intellect. There I was asking you to take a deep breath and I apologize for not clarifying that earlier. I was asking you to ask the spark of Noor in your heart if Mowla ever said anything about 50,000 Adams. I think you will KNOW the answer to your question right away.


altaf_rupani I agree with you that I am not a Farman bardar momin of my Imam. I feel extremely lucky that he has accepted me as his murid inspite of this.
The inadequacy of my knowledge is obvious to you and everyone else in my posts, please don't rub it in. If you can help in a nice, easily acceptable way, like Mowla Bapa does, it will be really appreciated. I don't say I deserve it. I am just asking for kindness.
It must be my aamal that is bad which causes confusion and the resultant bitterness.

I think I am calling Sunlight the Sun and that is what you disagree with. Is that so?

shamsu wrote:Aql is obviously Intellect. There I was asking you to take a deep breath and I apologize for not clarifying that earlier. I was asking you to ask the spark of Noor in your heart if Mowla ever said anything about 50,000 Adams. I think you will KNOW the answer to your question right away.


altaf_rupani I agree with you that I am not a Farman bardar momin of my Imam. I feel extremely lucky that he has accepted me as his murid inspite of this.
The inadequacy of my knowledge is obvious to you and everyone else in my posts, please don't rub it in. If you can help in a nice, easily acceptable way, like Mowla Bapa does, it will be really appreciated. I don't say I deserve it. I am just asking for kindness.
It must be my aamal that is bad which causes confusion and the resultant bitterness.

I think I am calling Sunlight the Sun and that is what you disagree with. Is that so?

The things you mentioned before, i.e. "Aql", "Breathing", "Adam" and "50,000" made things very very clear. If you desire so you can again see the reply I gave to that postings.

Anonymous wrote:

shamsu wrote:Aql is obviously Intellect. There I was asking you to take a deep breath and I apologize for not clarifying that earlier. I was asking you to ask the spark of Noor in your heart if Mowla ever said anything about 50,000 Adams. I think you will KNOW the answer to your question right away.


altaf_rupani I agree with you that I am not a Farman bardar momin of my Imam. I feel extremely lucky that he has accepted me as his murid inspite of this.
The inadequacy of my knowledge is obvious to you and everyone else in my posts, please don't rub it in. If you can help in a nice, easily acceptable way, like Mowla Bapa does, it will be really appreciated. I don't say I deserve it. I am just asking for kindness.
It must be my aamal that is bad which causes confusion and the resultant bitterness.

I think I am calling Sunlight the Sun and that is what you disagree with. Is that so?

The things you mentioned before, i.e. "Aql", "Breathing", "Adam" and "50,000" made things very very clear. If you desire so you can again see the reply I gave to that postings.

I am wondering how come you mentioned the posting (reply) was that of "altaf_rupani" when it showed Guest. Guest can be anyone - not necessarily ID altaf_rupani? Please treat Guest as Guest. Thank you.

" Every day Ismailis asks for Zahiri, Batuni and Noorani Deedar because these types of Deedar are there. It has also come to my knowledge that even the memoirs of agakhan mention this dear. So Deedar means a Deedar - zahiri batuni and noorani. So stop falsifying the Tasbih, Quran, Farman, Sultan Mohd Shah, etc. "


Dear altaf_rupani do you have any references about Imam instructing us to pray for Zaheri Deedar?

shamsu wrote:" Every day Ismailis asks for Zahiri, Batuni and Noorani Deedar because these types of Deedar are there. It has also come to my knowledge that even the memoirs of agakhan mention this dear. So Deedar means a Deedar - zahiri batuni and noorani. So stop falsifying the Tasbih, Quran, Farman, Sultan Mohd Shah, etc. "


Dear altaf_rupani do you have any references about Imam instructing us to pray for Zaheri Deedar?

This is the Guest - After 2nd Dua if you are an ismaili you should know there is a second tasbih i.e. Yaa Ali Yaa Mohammad and then you pray to Mawlana Hazar Imam for:
1) Zahiri Deedar
2) Baatuni Deedar
3) Noorani Deedar.
It appears you are not an ismaili else you would have know this.

What we do and what the Imam instructs us to do is sometimes different.

You may have seen that Tea is served before morning JamatKhana. Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah has specifically made a farman about not drinking tea unless it is prepared in a specific way that he described.
This is the 5th Farman in the Khangi Farman Book for Baitul Khayal.

We ask for Mushkil Aasaan after every Dua. Show me one Farman where Imam of the time has specifically instructed us to ask for Mushkil Aasaan.
If he can instuct us on how to make Tea he would have instructed us about asking for this wouldn't he?

Imam has asked us to ask for Assal Makaan.
When have we ever heard that in JamatKhana?

Imam SMS has stated in various Farmans "Amaro Deen" and in some places he states "Tamaro Deen".
Reflect on why he would use these clearly different terms?

In Deedar there are two entities Murid and Mursheed.

When we have Zaheri Deedar is that
The Murid in a zaheeri state seeing the Mursheed in his Zaheri state or
The Murid in a batuni state seeing the Mursheed in his Zaheri state or
The Murid in a roohani state seeing the Mursheed in the Zaheri state or
The Murid in a zaheri state seeing the Mursheed in his Batuni state or
The Murid in a Zaheri state seeing the Mursheed in his Noorani state.

I think Zaher, Batin and Noorani are all one (i.e. Noorani) when we talk about the Mursheed.

In my opinion Zahir Batin and Roohani are states a Murid goes through in his spiritual developement.

shamsu wrote:In Deedar there are two entities Murid and Mursheed.

When we have Zaheri Deedar is that
The Murid in a zaheeri state seeing the Mursheed in his Zaheri state or
The Murid in a batuni state seeing the Mursheed in his Zaheri state or
The Murid in a roohani state seeing the Mursheed in the Zaheri state or
The Murid in a zaheri state seeing the Mursheed in his Batuni state or
The Murid in a Zaheri state seeing the Mursheed in his Noorani state.

I think Zaher, Batin and Noorani are all one (i.e. Noorani) when we talk about the Mursheed.

In my opinion Zahir Batin and Roohani are states a Murid goes through in his spiritual developement.

I think the discussions relates to types of Deedars:

Zahiri Deedar is Zahiri Deedar
Batuni Deedar is Batuni Deedar
Noorani Deedar is Noorani Deedar

So there are three different types of Deedars.

You know Quran reveals about greater revelations of the Lord - i.e. Noorani Deedar, which the Holy Prophet had - OK, the farman about Moses to take Noorani Deedar of Ali.

I understand Sultan Mohd Shah's farman is that noorani deedar of the lord depends on your cleaniness (something similar) and he did gave an example - i.e. the sun's reflection in the water is seen if water is clear and not dirty. So shamsu you did not have noorani deedar I suppose.

shamsu wrote:What we do and what the Imam instructs us to do is sometimes different.

You may have seen that Tea is served before morning JamatKhana. Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah has specifically made a farman about not drinking tea unless it is prepared in a specific way that he described.
This is the 5th Farman in the Khangi Farman Book for Baitul Khayal.

We ask for Mushkil Aasaan after every Dua. Show me one Farman where Imam of the time has specifically instructed us to ask for Mushkil Aasaan.
If he can instuct us on how to make Tea he would have instructed us about asking for this wouldn't he?

Imam has asked us to ask for Assal Makaan.
When have we ever heard that in JamatKhana?

Imam SMS has stated in various Farmans "Amaro Deen" and in some places he states "Tamaro Deen".
Reflect on why he would use these clearly different terms?

Direction by the Hazar Imam - Muskil Asaan, etc.
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FARMAN MUBARAK OF MAWLANA HAZAR IMAM - MWANZA, TANZANIA, SATURDAY, 8TH OCTOBER, 1988
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This requires that not only the Imam be available to discuss these traditions, but in the years ahead, I will be giving more and more direction to the practice of the tariqah in such a manner that the various Jamats which come forward with their cultural traditions, understand that they all relate, under one Constitution, to the Imam of the time, so that they are able to inter-mingle and find commonality in their tradition, but at the same time, not upset the history of that tradition as it has developed in one part of the world rather than another, and in such a way that each Jamat is able to live in peace and harmony with the people among whom it is living.

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FARMAN MUBARAK OF MAWLANA HAZAR IMAM - DAR-ES-SALAAM, TANZANIA, THURSDAY, 6TH OCTOBER, 1988
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Under the new Constitution, there are Tariqah and Religious Education Boards; they relate to me; I am aware of their work. The Mukhis and the Kamadias who are the Imam's representatives in the Jamatkhanas receive directions more and more so. I wish it to be clear, therefore, that in tariqah matters I am aware, and there will be no change in the essence of our faith, but there will be, nonetheless, a search to enable the murids to come together in an ever wider Jamat, practicing their faith together, even if they don't speak the same language. There will be an attempt to take account of the pressures of modern life; there will be an attempt to make sure that traditions are understood within the Jamat and outside, and that they do not give offense.

Regarding Amaro Deen and Tamaro Deen - It is one and the same.
For example you are an ismaili - in which case, your din and my din is the same. Here the difference is the leader is the Imam/God you know and the Din is his - so his followers are the followers of his Din and so even when sultan mohd shah says your din it automatically means the din of sultan mohd shah because the followers are the followers of sultan mohd shah. -

Shamsu you mention you have read all the books still you appear confused. Sultan mohd shah farman mention if you do not use your intellect you will know nothing of the ismaili faith.
Shamsu please use the intellect. You know Quran mention :

Al-Mulk, or Dominion (LXVII)
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10) They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!"