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Fasting
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19815

PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

You wrote,:"It might have been composed by a great sufi". Will you please name that great sufi who wrote Buj Nirinjij? If that master piece is allowed to recite in khaney and explained by missionaries why not Bhajans of Mira Bai or other yogis, saints and sufis are not allowed to be recited in Khaney, there are many master pieces with great value explaining esoteric approach.
BUJ NIRINJIN PRINTED BY ASSOCIATIONS/ITREB BEAR THE NAME OF PIR SADARDIN.
Actually in the Iranian JKs poetry of Rumi and Hafiz is recited. They are not Ismailis. I am sure that there would be many other poets whose poetry is recited because of the value.

As MHI has said in one of his speeches:

"All cultures naturally influence each other to a greater or lesser degree; the strongest are those in which the dominant elements remain dominant and refuse to be overwhelmed by external forces. They become stronger still when they retain the ability to select, to absorb that which invigorates and enriches and to reject that which is inimicable."

I have given my reasons why I don't think Buj Niranjan is written by Pir Sadardeen in the thread of Buj Niranjan. I won't repeat here.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

The phrase 'fasting in the month of Ramadan' is available in the Quran, in sermons of Mowla Ali, Imam Baqir, Imam Ja'far, in the Fatimid literature, in Ginanic literature, and in the Farmans. Fasting in the month of Ramadan is compulsory for Muslims. Those who do not want to fast will hesitate and come up with different arguments to avoid fasting. Month of Ramadan is a kind of reminder and put them in practice so that they should continue good deeds and do ibadat round the year.
We are not living in the pre-Fatimid or Fatimid
times. We should be careful not to anchor our practice in the past. That is the reason for having a living Imam. Tell me if there is any Farman made by the 48th or 49th Imam on fasting. Is there any Ginan other than Buj Niranjan that mentions Ramadhan fasting?
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

The phrase 'fasting in the month of Ramadan' is available in the Quran, in sermons of Mowla Ali, Imam Baqir, Imam Ja'far, in the Fatimid literature, in Ginanic literature, and in the Farmans. Fasting in the month of Ramadan is compulsory for Muslims. Those who do not want to fast will hesitate and come up with different arguments to avoid fasting. Month of Ramadan is a kind of reminder and put them in practice so that they should continue good deeds and do ibadat round the year.
We are not living in the pre-Fatimid or Fatimid
times. We should be careful not to anchor our practice in the past. That is the reason for having a living Imam. Tell me if there is any Farman made by the 48th or 49th Imam on fasting. Is there any Ginan other than Buj Niranjan that mentions Ramadhan fasting?



Were the Tenets of Islam and Ismailism different in Fatimid era in comparison to today's? There is an important Farman of MSMS in KIM on fasting with starting words ' NOT ONLY', which in past 'NOT ONLY' was disappeared in Association bulletins and printed material, even missionaries during their lectures and waizes avoided these two words.
Regarding Buj Nirinjin there is no Farman of any Imam that it is not the Ginan of Pir Sadardin. It is in printed form by Associations and ITREB, and ITREB works under the guidance of Hazar Imam.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

You wrote,:"It might have been composed by a great sufi". Will you please name that great sufi who wrote Buj Nirinjij? If that master piece is allowed to recite in khaney and explained by missionaries why not Bhajans of Mira Bai or other yogis, saints and sufis are not allowed to be recited in Khaney, there are many master pieces with great value explaining esoteric approach.
BUJ NIRINJIN PRINTED BY ASSOCIATIONS/ITREB BEAR THE NAME OF PIR SADARDIN.
Actually in the Iranian JKs poetry of Rumi and Hafiz is recited. They are not Ismailis. I am sure that there would be many other poets whose poetry is recited because of the value.

As MHI has said in one of his speeches:

"All cultures naturally influence each other to a greater or lesser degree; the strongest are those in which the dominant elements remain dominant and refuse to be overwhelmed by external forces. They become stronger still when they retain the ability to select, to absorb that which invigorates and enriches and to reject that which is inimicable."

I have given my reasons why I don't think Buj Niranjan is written by Pir Sadardeen in the thread of Buj Niranjan. I won't repeat here.



Please correct your sentence,. You wrote," Actually in the Iranian JKs poetry of Rumi and Hafiz is recited. They are not Ismailis".
The debate is about the recitation of Buj Nirinjin in JK's of Satpunthi Ismailis ( just in last decade few ABRIDGED Qasidas are recited mostly on special occasions). Why nowadays Buj Nirinjin is neglected and is criticized? because
Buj Nirinjin mentions few things which Satpunthis are not mentally prepared to accept, and there are few points which are going against the ideology.. For example if they accept the fasting in Ramadan then they have to fast. Or PIR PAIGAMBER TOI NA PAAI.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe some serious study of Buj Nirinjan will show that the verses on Shariat and Ramadan were later additions, in the same way the first 3 verses of Kalame Mowla are later verses not found in previous older manuscripts.

Bhuj Nirinjan discussion to be continued on

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=8826&highlight=buj+nirinjan

Verses on Fasting only can be discussed here. Whatever the Ginan or source.


Last edited by Admin on Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total
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Admin



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Buj Nirinjin mentions few things which Satpunthis are not mentally prepared to accept


You are right, we Satpanthis have great difficulties in believing whatever contradict the Farmans of our Imam.

Not only we are mentally not able to accept but we are also spiritually not prepared to accept.

I am talking of Satpanthis, not of some others who have forgotten the basic definition of Imam in Ismailism. In my definition, whoever follow Satpanth (Sirat al Mustaqueem) is a Satpanthi, this does not limit itself to Ismailis of Indian origin but includes true Haqiqati Momins from any countries.

I understand from your numerous previous postings that you have a lifelong problem with Satpanthis but this is an Ismaili Forum and all real Ismailis are Satpanthis, that is, they are all true followers of Sirat al Mustaqueem if you prefer the Arabic translation of the word..

As said Mowlana Aga Ali Shah, those who think that God only speak Arabic, we surely do not believe in the same God.

Lakum dinukum waliya dini. "To you be your religion, and to me my religion"
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Buj Nirinjin mentions few things which Satpunthis are not mentally prepared to accept


You are right, we Satpanthis have great difficulties in believing whatever contradict the Farmans of our Imam.

Not only we are mentally not able to accept but we are also spiritually not prepared to accept.

I am talking of Satpanthis, not of some others who have forgotten the basic definition of Imam in Ismailism. In my definition, whoever follow Satpanth (Sirat al Mustaqueem) is a Satpanthi, this does not limit itself to Ismailis of Indian origin but includes true Haqiqati Momins from any countries.

I understand from your numerous previous postings that you have a lifelong problem with Satpanthis but this is an Ismaili Forum and all real Ismailis are Satpanthis, that is, they are all true followers of Sirat al Mustaqueem if you prefer the Arabic translation of the word..

As said Mowlana Aga Ali Shah, those who think that God only speak Arabic, we surely do not believe in the same God.

Lakum dinukum waliya dini. "To you be your religion, and to me my religion"



You wrote," As said Mowlana Aga Ali Shah, those who think that God only speak Arabic, we surely do not believe in the same God". It is not the question of Arabic or English. Do you recite Du'a in English? Of course not. You and every Ismaili recite Du'a in Arabic, just count how many times you recite name of Allah.
I don't see any contradiction in Farman and Ginan on subject of 'fasting in the month of Ramadan'.
I have no prejudice against Satpunthis. My goal is to explain ARTICLES OF PREAMBLE AND MEANING OF DU'A TO YOUTH OF PRESENT TIME AND FUTURE.
Follow the meaning of Du'a as translated by ITREB ON GUIDANCE RECEIVED FROM IMAM.
By quoting ' to you your religion and to me mine', means you are running away from debate.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

By quoting ' to you your religion and to me mine', means you are running away from debate.


Not at all, I am only following Farmans of the Imam of the Ismaili community to say this to those who do not believe.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19815

PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Were the Tenets of Islam and Ismailism different in Fatimid era in comparison to today's? There is an important Farman of MSMS in KIM on fasting with starting words ' NOT ONLY', which in past 'NOT ONLY' was disappeared in Association bulletins and printed material, even missionaries during their lectures and waizes avoided these two words.
Regarding Buj Nirinjin there is no Farman of any Imam that it is not the Ginan of Pir Sadardin. It is in printed form by Associations and ITREB, and ITREB works under the guidance of Hazar Imam.
Tenets are subject to change.

MSMS has stated in his Memoirs:

"Ismailism has survived because it has always been fluid. Rigidity is contrary to our whole way of life and outlook. There have really been no cut and dried rules; even the set of regulations known as the Holy Laws are directions as to method and procedure and not detailed orders about results to be obtained. "

Based on one questionable Farman and one questionable Ginan you are implying that Ramadhan fasts are obligatory like Dua and Dasond. Don't you think there would have been many many Farmans on Ramadhan fasting if it were obligatory in our tariqah?
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="kmaherali"]
shivaathervedi wrote:

Were the Tenets of Islam and Ismailism different in Fatimid era in comparison to today's? There is an important Farman of MSMS in KIM on fasting with starting words ' NOT ONLY', which in past 'NOT ONLY' was disappeared in Association bulletins and printed material, even missionaries during their lectures and waizes avoided these two words.
Regarding Buj Nirinjin there is no Farman of any Imam that it is not the Ginan of Pir Sadardin. It is in printed form by Associations and ITREB, and ITREB works under the guidance of Hazar Imam.



Kmaherali wrote;

Tenets are subject to change.

MSMS has stated in his Memoirs:

"Ismailism has survived because it has always been fluid. Rigidity is contrary to our whole way of life and outlook. There have really been no cut and dried rules; even the set of regulations known as the Holy Laws are directions as to method and procedure and not detailed orders about results to be obtained. "

Based on one questionable Farman and one questionable Ginan you are implying that Ramadhan fasts are obligatory like Dua and Dasond. Don't you think there would have been many many Farmans on Ramadhan fasting if it were obligatory in our tariqah?


Reply by Shiv:

Tenets mean fundamental principles or dogmas. Now according to you, "Tenets are subject to change", Please confirm, Is Allah one or many? Is Prophet Muhammad last Rasul of Allah or not? Is Quran final message of
Allah for mankind or not? Our basic Tenets are mentioned in the preamble of our constitution by Hazar Imam. Memoirs was published in 1954 where as Preamble came out in 1986. For Memoirs you have already mentioned quite few times that it was written for western audiences and you quoted a Talika also. For Preamble there was no such Talika.

You wrote;
"Based on one questionable Farman and one questionable Ginan you are implying that Ramadhan fasts are obligatory like Dua and Dasond. Don't you think there would have been many many Farmans on Ramadhan fasting if it were obligatory in our tariqah?"

Look like you are of opinion that if Farman is made one time and is not repeated means that particular Farman is of no value and not necessary to be obeyed. Farman is to be obeyed, doesn't matter it is repeated or not, until it is replaced by same Imam or by his successor. Let me ask you how many times Shah Karim has made Farmans about Dasond or Bheej? So if he has not repeatedly made Farman, does we stop paying Dasond.?
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Tenets mean fundamental principles or dogmas. Now according to you, "Tenets are subject to change", Please confirm, Is Allah one or many? Is Prophet Muhammad last Rasul of Allah or not? Is Quran final message of
Allah for mankind or not? Our basic Tenets are mentioned in the preamble of our constitution by Hazar Imam. Memoirs was published in 1954 where as Preamble came out in 1986. For Memoirs you have already mentioned quite few times that it was written for western audiences and you quoted a Talika also. For Preamble there was no such Talika.
When something is subject to change, it does not mean that it changes, but it can. We are not really talking about Allah and Rasul. We are talking about fasting which is the main subject of our discussion. The practice of fasting can change. When I said that the Memoirs was written for the western audience, it does not follow that everything in it is inapplicable for the Jamat. Most of the information is also beneficial for murids. Only in cases where what he says in the Memoirs differs from what he tells the Jamat, we should not follow the Memoirs. In this particular case whatever he has said about the fluid nature of our faith in the Memoirs, he has said in the Farmans as well.

I agree the preamble defines our tenets. Has there been any mention about fasting in it?
shivaathervedi wrote:

You wrote;
"Based on one questionable Farman and one questionable Ginan you are implying that Ramadhan fasts are obligatory like Dua and Dasond. Don't you think there would have been many many Farmans on Ramadhan fasting if it were obligatory in our tariqah?"

Look like you are of opinion that if Farman is made one time and is not repeated means that particular Farman is of no value and not necessary to be obeyed. Farman is to be obeyed, doesn't matter it is repeated or not, until it is replaced by same Imam or by his successor. Let me ask you how many times Shah Karim has made Farmans about Dasond or Bheej? So if he has not repeatedly made Farman, does we stop paying Dasond.?
MHI has made it quite clear that we should follow the meanings of the Ginans . Don't the Ginans mention Dasond and Dua many many times?

Ginans don't mention Ramadhan fast except for one questionable one.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Tenets mean fundamental principles or dogmas. Now according to you, "Tenets are subject to change", Please confirm, Is Allah one or many? Is Prophet Muhammad last Rasul of Allah or not? Is Quran final message of
Allah for mankind or not? Our basic Tenets are mentioned in the preamble of our constitution by Hazar Imam. Memoirs was published in 1954 where as Preamble came out in 1986. For Memoirs you have already mentioned quite few times that it was written for western audiences and you quoted a Talika also. For Preamble there was no such Talika.
When something is subject to change, it does not mean that it changes, but it can. We are not really talking about Allah and Rasul. We are talking about fasting which is the main subject of our discussion. The practice of fasting can change. When I said that the Memoirs was written for the western audience, it does not follow that everything in it is inapplicable for the Jamat. Most of the information is also beneficial for murids. Only in cases where what he says in the Memoirs differs from what he tells the Jamat, we should not follow the Memoirs. In this particular case whatever he has said about the fluid nature of our faith in the Memoirs, he has said in the Farmans as well.

I agree the preamble defines our tenets. Has there been any mention about fasting in it?
shivaathervedi wrote:

You wrote;
"Based on one questionable Farman and one questionable Ginan you are implying that Ramadhan fasts are obligatory like Dua and Dasond. Don't you think there would have been many many Farmans on Ramadhan fasting if it were obligatory in our tariqah?"

Look like you are of opinion that if Farman is made one time and is not repeated means that particular Farman is of no value and not necessary to be obeyed. Farman is to be obeyed, doesn't matter it is repeated or not, until it is replaced by same Imam or by his successor. Let me ask you how many times Shah Karim has made Farmans about Dasond or Bheej? So if he has not repeatedly made Farman, does we stop paying Dasond.?
MHI has made it quite clear that we should follow the meanings of the Ginans . Don't the Ginans mention Dasond and Dua many many times?

Ginans don't mention Ramadhan fast except for one questionable one.


You wrote;
"When something is subject to change, it does not mean that it changes, but it can". Let us analyze your sentence ' it does not mean that it changes, but it can'. When nothing is so far changed why to keep waiting for change. Your hypothesis has no footing. There will be no changes in Ismaili Tenets. In tenets it is mentioned to have faith in Shahadah means faith in Allah and His Rasul. When we discuss fasting obviously we should consider the order of fasting by Allah in Quran and explanation of fasting by Rasul. Without Allah, Rasul ,and Imam discussion is of no use. Ismailis follow order of Allah, Rasul and ulil Amr according to second part of Du'a.
Regarding Memoirs, your suggestion is like 'which suits me I shall accept and rest I shall reject'!! In Memoirs on what paragraphs MSMS marked red sign that his followers should not read these paragraphs or they are not beneficial for them, or this portion is for westerners, this generally for Muslims, this for Hindus, and left over for followers.

You wrote;
"MHI has made it quite clear that we should follow the meanings of the Ginans . Don't the Ginans mention Dasond and Dua many many times?

Ginans don't mention Ramadhan fast except for one questionable one".

Karim in which world are you living!! Does each Ismaili murid of Hazar Imam knows Ginans of Satpunthi Pirs? I think 85% of Ismailis do not know even Gujrati or Khojki, then how come they will know the teachings of Ginans.
In non Satpunthi Ismaili literature fasting is mentioned clearly. When Mahaan Pir in his Ginan mentioned fasting of Ramadan which you are rejecting shows in future you will reject some other teachings of Pirs also as you are looking for 'something subject to change', if Imam will not, I think you will because you and your like minded are looking for easy ways in religion.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have been relieve from many obligations, there is no use in living in the past and using camels as mean of transport in the Northern continent, though where you live, it may still be the ideal way to get from one place to another.

Please read the whole thread, I have no intention in again revisiting what has been repeated again and again. As said Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah, those who are drowned in Shariah will never understand his Farmans. Shariah and Haqiah are two worlds apart, they shall never meet.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
Without Allah, Rasul ,and Imam discussion is of no use. Ismailis follow order of Allah, Rasul and ulil Amr according to second part of Du'a..
Please give me a Farman by the present Ulil Amr about fasting
shivaathervedi wrote:

Regarding Memoirs, your suggestion is like 'which suits me I shall accept and rest I shall reject'!! In Memoirs on what paragraphs MSMS marked red sign that his followers should not read these paragraphs or they are not beneficial for them, or this portion is for westerners, this generally for Muslims, this for Hindus, and left over for followers.
One is required to use some intelligence. There are Farmans of MSMS which state that the Farmans change according to time. This is also stated in the Memoirs about the non-rigidity of our faith. So it is not about what suits me.

Don't you agree about the statement made by the Imam in his Memoirs? Do you have a problem with it?

shivaathervedi wrote:

Karim in which world are you living!! Does each Ismaili murid of Hazar Imam knows Ginans of Satpunthi Pirs? I think 85% of Ismailis do not know even Gujrati or Khojki, then how come they will know the teachings of Ginans.
In non Satpunthi Ismaili literature fasting is mentioned clearly. When Mahaan Pir in his Ginan mentioned fasting of Ramadan which you are rejecting shows in future you will reject some other teachings of Pirs also as you are looking for 'something subject to change', if Imam will not, I think you will because you and your like minded are looking for easy ways in religion.
Ginans are meant for all Ismailis. There are lots of translations available if murids want to know about the Ginans. Today even the Satpanthis don't know the original languages but they access the message through translations. So there is no excuse about languages any more.

Tell me which non-Satpanthi literature mentions fasting? All Ismaili thinkers have made the tafsir of the fast to mean something different than the physical fast. For example Tusi says:

4. Fasting (Sawm) - to speak with the followers of falsehood using precautionary dissimulation (taqiyyah) in order to maintain continual fasting.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
We have been relieve from many obligations, there is no use in living in the past and using camels as mean of transport in the Northern continent, though where you live, it may still be the ideal way to get from one place to another.

Please read the whole thread, I have no intention in again revisiting what has been repeated again and again. As said Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah, those who are drowned in Shariah will never understand his Farmans. Shariah and Haqiah are two worlds apart, they shall never meet.


It is not the question of camels, cars, or planes. Once Imam said to murids of northern areas of Pakistan who requested for Didar, Imam replied, "this time he has no time but next time he will come even if he has to use mule".
I have not asked you to give sermon on Shariyah, but let me ask you;
You recite Du'a 3 times is that not an act of Shariyah?
You keep Bheej 2/3 times a year, is that not an act of Shariyah?
Is Nikah Khutbah not an act of Shariyah?
Is Janaza Namaz not an act of Shariyah?
Is Ziyarat of mayat not an act of Shariyah?
Is Eid Namaz not an act of Shariyah?
Above all if you or your like minded do not like word Shariyah then curse Pirs and Syeds who used the word Shariyah many times in Ginans!!
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
Without Allah, Rasul ,and Imam discussion is of no use. Ismailis follow order of Allah, Rasul and ulil Amr according to second part of Du'a..
Please give me a Farman by the present Ulil Amr about fasting
shivaathervedi wrote:

Regarding Memoirs, your suggestion is like 'which suits me I shall accept and rest I shall reject'!! In Memoirs on what paragraphs MSMS marked red sign that his followers should not read these paragraphs or they are not beneficial for them, or this portion is for westerners, this generally for Muslims, this for Hindus, and left over for followers.
One is required to use some intelligence. There are Farmans of MSMS which state that the Farmans change according to time. This is also stated in the Memoirs about the non-rigidity of our faith. So it is not about what suits me.

Don't you agree about the statement made by the Imam in his Memoirs? Do you have a problem with it?

shivaathervedi wrote:

Karim in which world are you living!! Does each Ismaili murid of Hazar Imam knows Ginans of Satpunthi Pirs? I think 85% of Ismailis do not know even Gujrati or Khojki, then how come they will know the teachings of Ginans.
In non Satpunthi Ismaili literature fasting is mentioned clearly. When Mahaan Pir in his Ginan mentioned fasting of Ramadan which you are rejecting shows in future you will reject some other teachings of Pirs also as you are looking for 'something subject to change', if Imam will not, I think you will because you and your like minded are looking for easy ways in religion.
Ginans are meant for all Ismailis. There are lots of translations available if murids want to know about the Ginans. Today even the Satpanthis don't know the original languages but they access the message through translations. So there is no excuse about languages any more.

Tell me which non-Satpanthi literature mentions fasting? All Ismaili thinkers have made the tafsir of the fast to mean something different than the physical fast. For example Tusi says:

4. Fasting (Sawm) - to speak with the followers of falsehood using precautionary dissimulation (taqiyyah) in order to maintain continual fasting.


You were explained in my previous post that until Imam changes or replaces any Farman, it will stay active and need to be obeyed. Hazar Imam has not replaced Farman of MSMS on fasting in the month of Ramadan. Shah Karim has not mentioned of Bheej and Dasond frequently in his Farmans do we discontinue Bheej and Dasond?
Please quote the proper wordings of Tusi In Persian, or complete paragraph on Saum by Tusi. I don't think Tusi was against fasting. What you mentioned is about dissimulation of maintaining fast. We believe in Qadi No'aman more than Tusi who left Ismailism and conspired against Imam and sided with Helagu Khan.
Regarding your question of mentioning non Satpunthi literature on fasting, please read the Fatimid literature on fasting, Hasan bin Sabah, Nasir Khusraw and others fast in the month of Ramadan. Pir Sadardi Pir Hasan Kabiruddin and other Sadaat fast in the month of Ramadan, I do not understand why khoja Satpunthis hesitate!
Ginans of Pirs are not recited in central Asian countries where Ismailis live, and mostly they do not understand English. Let me ask you, Are Ginans translated in Persian and provided to these jamaits. The jamaits even do not know about Oum, Hari, Krishna, or Rama.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tusi never betrayed the Imam nor sided with Hulagu Khan. He was practising Taqiya and found an intelligent way to save the true litterature of Ismailis from the Library of Alamut by summarizing it in his writings. What a clever person. Alamut period is clear in its position on Ramadan roza, a position never contradicted by any Imam, on the contrary, confirmed again and again in Farmans of many subsequent Imams.

There is a saying in French "Se faire passer pour un idiot aux yeux d'un imbecile est un plaisir de fin gourmet". Completely impossible to translate in English!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
You were explained in my previous post that until Imam changes or replaces any Farman, it will stay active and need to be obeyed. Hazar Imam has not replaced Farman of MSMS on fasting in the month of Ramadan. Shah Karim has not mentioned of Bheej and Dasond frequently in his Farmans do we discontinue Bheej and Dasond?.

There is no Farman of MSMS to fast exclusively on the month of Ramadhan. Rather, there is a Farman to fast for 365 days. If Shah Karim has not mentioned explicitly about Dasond and Beej, then they should continue to be practiced unless there is a Farman otherwise.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Please quote the proper wordings of Tusi In Persian, or complete paragraph on Saum by Tusi. I don't think Tusi was against fasting. What you mentioned is about dissimulation of maintaining fast. We believe in Qadi No'aman more than Tusi who left Ismailism and conspired against Imam and sided with Helagu Khan..

Tusi's book has been translated by well known Ismaili scholar Jalal Badakshani in his book the Paradise of Submission. To demonstrate how tenets can change. The following are tenets during the Fatimid times:

According to Shia interpretation as articulated by Imam Muhammad al Baqir, Islam is based upon seven pillars:
1. Walaya (Devotion to the Imam) and this is the most excellent; and through it and the Imam, the true knowledge of faith can be obtained.
2. Tahara (Ritual purity)
3. Sala (Prayer)
4. Zaka (Poor tax)
5. Sawm (Fasting)
6. Hajj (Pilgrimage)
7. Jihad( Holy war)

The above were reinterpreted during the Alamut period as:

The following are the seven pillars of religious law and their esoteric meaning as explained by Nair Tusi in the "Tasawwurat".

1. Cleanliness (taharat) - to dissociate oneself from previous religions and traditions.
2. Confession of faith (Shahadat) - to know God through Himself.
3. Prayer (Namaz) - to be always speaking about recognition of God.
4. Fasting (Sawm) - to speak with the followers of falsehood using precautionary dissimulation (taqiyyah) in order to maintain continual fasting.
5. Charity (Zakat) - to give to other brothers in religion part of that which God, the Exalted, has given you.
6. Pilgrimage (hajj) - to abandon this temporal world and seek the eternal abode (of the hereafter).
7. Holy war (jihad) - to annihilate oneself in the essence of God, the Exalted.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Regarding your question of mentioning non Satpunthi literature on fasting, please read the Fatimid literature on fasting, Hasan bin Sabah, Nasir Khusraw and others fast in the month of Ramadan. Pir Sadardi Pir Hasan Kabiruddin and other Sadaat fast in the month of Ramadan, I do not understand why khoja Satpunthis hesitate!.
There has been a significant departure from the Fatimid period reqarding our practices especially after the proclamation of Qiyama. We must pay attention to post Fatimid literature. As I mentioned earlier we do not follow what the Pirs did but what they told us in the Ginans.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Ginans of Pirs are not recited in central Asian countries where Ismailis live, and mostly they do not understand English. Let me ask you, Are Ginans translated in Persian and provided to these jamaits. The jamaits even do not know about Oum, Hari, Krishna, or Rama.
According to the Farmans of the present Imam, all Ismailis are expected to learn English. Hopefully the younger Iranians will translate the Ginans into Persian.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
Tusi never betrayed the Imam nor sided with Hulagu Khan. He was practising Taqiya and found an intelligent way to save the true litterature of Ismailis from the Library of Alamut by summarizing it in his writings. What a clever person. Alamut period is clear in its position on Ramadan roza, a position never contradicted by any Imam, on the contrary, confirmed again and again in Farmans of many subsequent Imams.

There is a saying in French "Se faire passer pour un idiot aux yeux d'un imbecile est un plaisir de fin gourmet". Completely impossible to translate in English!


Tusi conspired against Ismail Imam and sided with Helagu Khan. Read the following paragraph:

"The Mongol invasion and the turmoil it caused in the eastern Islamic territories hardly left the life of any of its citizens untouched. The collapse of Ismaili political power and the massacre of the Ismaili population, who were considered to be a serious threat to the Mongols, left no choice for Tusi except the exhibition of some sort of affiliation to Twelver Shi‘ism, and he denounced his Ismaili allegiances".
Tusi quit Ismailism and died as an Isna'shiri.

You wrote;
"Alamut period is clear in its position on Ramadan roza, a position never contradicted by any Imam, on the contrary, confirmed again and again in Farmans of many subsequent Imams".
Read history, Imam Jalaluddin Hasan reinstated the Shariyah for Ismailis including Fasting of Ramadan. MSMS's Farman on fasting in the month of Ramadan is clear. "Naazik mizaaj" Satpunthis will run away from it hiding in
Takiya (Taqiya).

You wrote;
"There is a saying in French "Se faire passer pour un idiot aux yeux d'un imbecile est un plaisir de fin gourmet". Completely impossible to translate in English![/quote]"
What 'imbecile' has to do with Tusi. That is your French not mine. Why you shy to translate in English. Let me do it for you and readers.
" To pretend to be an idiot in the eyes of imbecile is a pleasure of fine gourmet". BACHA LOG TALLI BAJHAOW.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
You were explained in my previous post that until Imam changes or replaces any Farman, it will stay active and need to be obeyed. Hazar Imam has not replaced Farman of MSMS on fasting in the month of Ramadan. Shah Karim has not mentioned of Bheej and Dasond frequently in his Farmans do we discontinue Bheej and Dasond?.

There is no Farman of MSMS to fast exclusively on the month of Ramadhan. Rather, there is a Farman to fast for 365 days. If Shah Karim has not mentioned explicitly about Dasond and Beej, then they should continue to be practiced unless there is a Farman otherwise.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Please quote the proper wordings of Tusi In Persian, or complete paragraph on Saum by Tusi. I don't think Tusi was against fasting. What you mentioned is about dissimulation of maintaining fast. We believe in Qadi No'aman more than Tusi who left Ismailism and conspired against Imam and sided with Helagu Khan..

Tusi's book has been translated by well known Ismaili scholar Jalal Badakshani in his book the Paradise of Submission. To demonstrate how tenets can change. The following are tenets during the Fatimid times:

According to Shia interpretation as articulated by Imam Muhammad al Baqir, Islam is based upon seven pillars:
1. Walaya (Devotion to the Imam) and this is the most excellent; and through it and the Imam, the true knowledge of faith can be obtained.
2. Tahara (Ritual purity)
3. Sala (Prayer)
4. Zaka (Poor tax)
5. Sawm (Fasting)
6. Hajj (Pilgrimage)
7. Jihad( Holy war)

The above were reinterpreted during the Alamut period as:

The following are the seven pillars of religious law and their esoteric meaning as explained by Nair Tusi in the "Tasawwurat".

1. Cleanliness (taharat) - to dissociate oneself from previous religions and traditions.
2. Confession of faith (Shahadat) - to know God through Himself.
3. Prayer (Namaz) - to be always speaking about recognition of God.
4. Fasting (Sawm) - to speak with the followers of falsehood using precautionary dissimulation (taqiyyah) in order to maintain continual fasting.
5. Charity (Zakat) - to give to other brothers in religion part of that which God, the Exalted, has given you.
6. Pilgrimage (hajj) - to abandon this temporal world and seek the eternal abode (of the hereafter).
7. Holy war (jihad) - to annihilate oneself in the essence of God, the Exalted.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Regarding your question of mentioning non Satpunthi literature on fasting, please read the Fatimid literature on fasting, Hasan bin Sabah, Nasir Khusraw and others fast in the month of Ramadan. Pir Sadardi Pir Hasan Kabiruddin and other Sadaat fast in the month of Ramadan, I do not understand why khoja Satpunthis hesitate!.
There has been a significant departure from the Fatimid period reqarding our practices especially after the proclamation of Qiyama. We must pay attention to post Fatimid literature. As I mentioned earlier we do not follow what the Pirs did but what they told us in the Ginans.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Ginans of Pirs are not recited in central Asian countries where Ismailis live, and mostly they do not understand English. Let me ask you, Are Ginans translated in Persian and provided to these jamaits. The jamaits even do not know about Oum, Hari, Krishna, or Rama.
According to the Farmans of the present Imam, all Ismailis are expected to learn English. Hopefully the younger Iranians will translate the Ginans into Persian.


You cannot drop the words "NOT ONLY" from the Farman of MSMS on fasting. What Imam explained was that the same practice of ethical values and Ibadat should continue for 365 days. As I wrote before, if some one do not want to fast in the month of Ramadan, he will come with different arguements to avoid it.

The status of Qadi No'man is higher than Tusi. Tusi who betrayed Imam of the time and sided with mongols and left Ismailism and died as an Isna'shiri.
SEVEN PILLARS OF ISMAILISM ARE RIGID. These are orders to follow.To day Ismailis particularly youth is confused with unnecessary Ta'weel of every aspect of Ismailism. For example look at the following ta'weelat;

1. Cleanliness (taharat) - to dissociate oneself from previous religions and traditions.
2. Confession of faith (Shahadat) - to know God through Himself.
3. Prayer (Namaz) - to be always speaking about recognition of God.

When Imam says Al Kitab is totality of books means all revealed books of major religion then how come we dissociate from other religions?

Allah is known through Rasul and Imam, Imam said "through Noor of Ali, through Noor of Imamat you will come closer to Allah".

Acoording to Tusi, 'prayer is to be always speaking about recognition of Allah', now should we stop reciting Du'a which is foundation of our Tariqa?
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Admin



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Corbin, Tusi remained Ismaili and for Taqiya's sake had to declare himself as non-Ismailis else he would have been killed by the Shariatis.

As for Imam Alazikrihis Salam's Farman, it remains uncontradicted as it has been forcefully confirmed by subsequent Farmans of Imams such as Aga Hassanali Shah and Aga Ali Shah. Not to mention Usule Din Farman of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah whcih unequivocally put shariah in the dustbin and glorifies Haqiqat.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19815

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

You cannot drop the words "NOT ONLY" from the Farman of MSMS on fasting. What Imam explained was that the same practice of ethical values and Ibadat should continue for 365 days. As I wrote before, if some one do not want to fast in the month of Ramadan, he will come with different arguements to avoid it.?


“HAKIKATI MOMAN FAKAT RAMZAN MAHINAMA(N)J ROJA RAKHTA NATHI, TEO NE TO 360 DIVAS HAMESHA ROJA HOY CHHE. TRAN SO SATH DIVASMA(N) EK PAN BADKAM NA THAY AE ROZA CHHE. KOI NE IZA NA KARVI AE ROZA CHHE. AE ROZA NATHI KE MODHU(N) BANDH KARI NE NAHI KHAVU(N) ANE BIJA GUNAH NA BAD KAM KARVA...”


The correct translation is:

A Hakikati Moman is not observing the fast only in the month of Ramzan. For him Fasting is for the whole year (lit. 360 days) For him the fasting is all the days of the year (lit. always, every day, constantly). During 360 days not to perform any misconduct, (evil act adultery etc) even for one instant is the meaning of Roja. Not to hurt any one is the meaning of Roja. It is not the Roja that to keep the mouth shut, not to eat any thing and perform all short evil acts.

From the above Farman, it is quite evident that the Imam does not make a distinction between the fasting in Ramadhan and the fasting for 365 days. Both fasts are the same in his eyes. Hence we have to fast for 365 days and not only in the month of Ramadhan.

shivaathervedi wrote:

The status of Qadi No'man is higher than Tusi. Tusi who betrayed Imam of the time and sided with mongols and left Ismailism and died as an Isna'shiri.
SEVEN PILLARS OF ISMAILISM ARE RIGID. These are orders to follow.To day Ismailis particularly youth is confused with unnecessary Ta'weel of every aspect of Ismailism. For example look at the following ta'weelat;?
If there was any betrayal at all, it happened after he wrote the Paradise of Submission. When he wrote this work under the patronage of the Imam, he was absolutely loyal. His work should be considered as authoritative.

If Tusi was a traitor MHI would not mention him in his speech:

"Humanities curricula in many educational institutions in the West, rarely feature great Muslim philosophers, scientists, astronomers and writers of the classical age of Islam, such as Avicenna, Farabi and al-Kindi, Nasir Khusraw and Tusi.
"
http://www.akdn.org/speech/his-highness-aga-khan/leadership-and-diversity-conference
shivaathervedi wrote:

1. Cleanliness (taharat) - to dissociate oneself from previous religions and traditions.
2. Confession of faith (Shahadat) - to know God through Himself.
3. Prayer (Namaz) - to be always speaking about recognition of God.

When Imam says Al Kitab is totality of books means all revealed books of major religion then how come we dissociate from other religions??
The purpose for mentioning the difference between the preFatimid and Alamut interpretations was to highlight the fact that tenets are not rigid, they can be interpreted and understood differently in different contexts.

While we except Christians and Jews as Ahl-kitab and hence respect their interpretation, we don't associate ourselves with their beliefs. For example we don't believe in Holy Trinity or Christ as the Saviour etc.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Allah is known through Rasul and Imam, Imam said "through Noor of Ali, through Noor of Imamat you will come closer to Allah".?
Isn't Allah the Light of Imamat? Hence Allah is known through Himself.

Another way of looking at it is that God is only known through himself. You cannot know God through ordinary means but you know him through becoming one with him through spiritual enlightenment - Maarifah.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Acoording to Tusi, 'prayer is to be always speaking about recognition of Allah', now should we stop reciting Du'a which is foundation of our Tariqa?
Isn't Dua speaking about recognition of Allah?
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

You cannot drop the words "NOT ONLY" from the Farman of MSMS on fasting. What Imam explained was that the same practice of ethical values and Ibadat should continue for 365 days. As I wrote before, if some one do not want to fast in the month of Ramadan, he will come with different arguements to avoid it.?


“HAKIKATI MOMAN FAKAT RAMZAN MAHINAMA(N)J ROJA RAKHTA NATHI, TEO NE TO 360 DIVAS HAMESHA ROJA HOY CHHE. TRAN SO SATH DIVASMA(N) EK PAN BADKAM NA THAY AE ROZA CHHE. KOI NE IZA NA KARVI AE ROZA CHHE. AE ROZA NATHI KE MODHU(N) BANDH KARI NE NAHI KHAVU(N) ANE BIJA GUNAH NA BAD KAM KARVA...”


The correct translation is:

A Hakikati Moman is not observing the fast only in the month of Ramzan. For him Fasting is for the whole year (lit. 360 days) For him the fasting is all the days of the year (lit. always, every day, constantly). During 360 days not to perform any misconduct, (evil act adultery etc) even for one instant is the meaning of Roja. Not to hurt any one is the meaning of Roja. It is not the Roja that to keep the mouth shut, not to eat any thing and perform all short evil acts.

From the above Farman, it is quite evident that the Imam does not make a distinction between the fasting in Ramadhan and the fasting for 365 days. Both fasts are the same in his eyes. Hence we have to fast for 365 days and not only in the month of Ramadhan.

shivaathervedi wrote:

The status of Qadi No'man is higher than Tusi. Tusi who betrayed Imam of the time and sided with mongols and left Ismailism and died as an Isna'shiri.
SEVEN PILLARS OF ISMAILISM ARE RIGID. These are orders to follow.To day Ismailis particularly youth is confused with unnecessary Ta'weel of every aspect of Ismailism. For example look at the following ta'weelat;?
If there was any betrayal at all, it happened after he wrote the Paradise of Submission. When he wrote this work under the patronage of the Imam, he was absolutely loyal. His work should be considered as authoritative.

If Tusi was a traitor MHI would not mention him in his speech:

"Humanities curricula in many educational institutions in the West, rarely feature great Muslim philosophers, scientists, astronomers and writers of the classical age of Islam, such as Avicenna, Farabi and al-Kindi, Nasir Khusraw and Tusi.
"
http://www.akdn.org/speech/his-highness-aga-khan/leadership-and-diversity-conference
shivaathervedi wrote:

1. Cleanliness (taharat) - to dissociate oneself from previous religions and traditions.
2. Confession of faith (Shahadat) - to know God through Himself.
3. Prayer (Namaz) - to be always speaking about recognition of God.

When Imam says Al Kitab is totality of books means all revealed books of major religion then how come we dissociate from other religions??
The purpose for mentioning the difference between the preFatimid and Alamut interpretations was to highlight the fact that tenets are not rigid, they can be interpreted and understood differently in different contexts.

While we except Christians and Jews as Ahl-kitab and hence respect their interpretation, we don't associate ourselves with their beliefs. For example we don't believe in Holy Trinity or Christ as the Saviour etc.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Allah is known through Rasul and Imam, Imam said "through Noor of Ali, through Noor of Imamat you will come closer to Allah".?
Isn't Allah the Light of Imamat? Hence Allah is known through Himself.

Another way of looking at it is that God is only known through himself. You cannot know God through ordinary means but you know him through becoming one with him through spiritual enlightenment - Maarifah.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Acoording to Tusi, 'prayer is to be always speaking about recognition of Allah', now should we stop reciting Du'a which is foundation of our Tariqa?
Isn't Dua speaking about recognition of Allah?



Did MSMS made that particular Farman in Gujrai or in English? The English version starts with 'HAQIQATI MOMIN NOT ONLY'. Let us take your translation of the first sentence ;
“HAKIKATI MOMAN FAKAT RAMZAN MAHINAMA(N)J ROJA RAKHTA NATHI, TEO NE TO 360 DIVAS HAMESHA ROJA HOY CHHE. TRAN SO SATH DIVASMA(N) EK PAN BADKAM NA THAY AE ROZA CHHE. KOI NE IZA NA KARVI AE ROZA CHHE. AE ROZA NATHI KE MODHU(N) BANDH KARI NE NAHI KHAVU(N) ANE BIJA GUNAH NA BAD KAM KARVA...”

"A Hakikati Moman is not observing the fast only in the month of Ramzan".
Now, your translation is clearly proving that "Haqiqati momin not only observe the fasting in the month of Ramadan but for him 360 days are always roza ( this shows to continue the ethical values and ibadat of Ramadan for 360 days). FAKTA is a key word means ONLY and this word confirms fasting in the month of Ramadan.

In that particular speech on Pluralism Imam generally talked about past Muslim scholars and scientists including Tusi. Beside Tusi Imam took names of Farabi and Al Kandi who were not Ismailis. Historical fact is Tusi betrayed Imam of the time and after fall of Alamout again become Isna'ishiri and died as Isna'ishiri.

Jalal Bakshani has not translated complete ' Paradise of Submission' but it is a abridged translation. It is like abridged translation of Ginans. We can't say what other important portions or paragraphs omitted. Tusi never wrote Imam as God.

7 pillars of Ismailism are rigid, if at any period in history, when Ismailis lives were threatened they adopted Ta'weel and Taqiya.

Few years after Eid e Qayamah, Imam Jalaluddin Hasan REINSTATED SHARIYA AGAIN. ( The Ismailis by Daftary, page: 405).

Officially Ismailis do not believe in Trinity but I have heard Trinity in Waizes;
Allah, Muhammad, Ali.

You wrote, "Isn't Allah the Light of Imamat? Hence Allah is known through Himself". You are lost!! Is Allah the light of Imam OR Imam is the light of Allah, obviously Imam is Noorullah.

In Du'a we believe Allah as Ahad and not consider Imam as Ahad.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
According to Corbin, Tusi remained Ismaili and for Taqiya's sake had to declare himself as non-Ismailis else he would have been killed by the Shariatis.

As for Imam Alazikrihis Salam's Farman, it remains uncontradicted as it has been forcefully confirmed by subsequent Farmans of Imams such as Aga Hassanali Shah and Aga Ali Shah. Not to mention Usule Din Farman of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah whcih unequivocally put shariah in the dustbin and glorifies Haqiqat.


Is this the post by Sledge Hammer or Asst. Sledge Hammer! You wrote, " other wise Tusi would have been killed by the Shari'aties"
Were mongols Muslims at the time when they attacked Ismailis in 1256 AD. If not, how come they become Shari'aties? Bacha log tali bhajao.
Please quote the name of the book by Cobin, page # and paragraph.

Read history. According to Daftry," Imam Jalauddin Hasan publicly repudiated the doctrine of Qiyamah and proclaimed his adherence to observe Shariyah". ( The Ismailis by Farhad Daftry page # 405 ).

Why after post Almout period our Pirs mentioned Shariyah in Ginans, if Shariyah was abrogated?

According to you if Shariyah was thrown in dust bin as you quoted for MSMS, then why during in his tenure he allowed the Ismailis to follow the Sunni Hanafi Tariqa? Till 60's Ismailis of subcontinent followed Sunni Hanafi Tariqa.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ismailis followed the Imam. If you are considering that they followed Hanifa tariqah up to 1960s' you are mistaken of what is an Ismailis (Not that anyone is surprised here by this) As an example, I am not aware that the Das Avatar which our Imam has mentioned as one of the base of Ismailism, in his own handwriting and his affidavit filed in a Court of Law, is also part of the Hanafi Tariqah which you pretend Ismailis were following only few decades ago.

As for Daftari, let him quote which Farman has abrogated the Declaration of the Qiyama and I will correct him. Daftari not been an Ismaili, he can obviously not have access to all the Farmans that we have and his opinion therefore is based on incomplete sources as far as the history of Shariah vs Haqiqah in Imam's Farmans is concerned.

I do not wish to pursue this useless conversation, first you have to get some very basic knowledge of what is Ismailism and what is Sunni Hanafi Tariqa and what is Jafary Madhab before trowing slogans, then we can talk.

Though it is an open Forum, we do expect a minimal level of knowledge and integrity in people's postings, something we have failed again and again to see in yours.

Admin


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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

"A Hakikati Moman is not observing the fast only in the month of Ramzan".
Now, your translation is clearly proving that "Haqiqati momin not only observe the fasting in the month of Ramadan but for him 360 days are always roza ( this shows to continue the ethical values and ibadat of Ramadan for 360 days). FAKTA is a key word means ONLY and this word confirms fasting in the month of Ramadan. .


If I were to say that Haqiqati momins not only attend JK during Ramadhan but attend JK for 360 days. Does it mean that JK attendance during Ramadhan is different than attendance during 360 days.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

"A Hakikati Moman is not observing the fast only in the month of Ramzan".
Now, your translation is clearly proving that "Haqiqati momin not only observe the fasting in the month of Ramadan but for him 360 days are always roza ( this shows to continue the ethical values and ibadat of Ramadan for 360 days). FAKTA is a key word means ONLY and this word confirms fasting in the month of Ramadan. .


If I were to say that Haqiqati momins not only attend JK during Ramadhan but attend JK for 360 days. Does it mean that JK attendance during Ramadhan is different than attendance during 360 days.


Very smart move.
But why MSMS particularly with stress strongly used the words 'Haqiqati momin NOT ONLY fast in the month of Ramadan'? Because he wanted his followers should fast in Ramadan. According to your explanation a Haqiqati momin attend JK 360 days but there is no mention of any particular month but here Imam particularly mention fast in the month of Ramadan.

You are selective and did not answer my other queries about Tusi, about quotation of Daftry, about Ismaili Trinity, and you wrote, " Is not Allah from Noor e Imamat!!"?
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
Ismailis followed the Imam. If you are considering that they followed Hanifa tariqah up to 1960s' you are mistaken of what is an Ismailis (Not that anyone is surprised here by this) As an example, I am not aware that the Das Avatar which our Imam has mentioned as one of the base of Ismailism, in his own handwriting and his affidavit filed in a Court of Law, is also part of the Hanafi Tariqah which you pretend Ismailis were following only few decades ago.

As for Daftari, let him quote which Farman has abrogated the Declaration of the Qiyama and I will correct him. Daftari not been an Ismaili, he can obviously not have access to all the Farmans that we have and his opinion therefore is based on incomplete sources as far as the history of Shariah vs Haqiqah in Imam's Farmans is concerned.

I do not wish to pursue this useless conversation, first you have to get some very basic knowledge of what is Ismailism and what is Sunni Hanafi Tariqa and what is Jafary Madhab before trowing slogans, then we can talk.

Though it is an open Forum, we do expect a minimal level of knowledge and integrity in people's postings, something we have failed again and again to see in yours.

Admin


I am not a scholar or highly educated person from foreign university like you people. I confirm that till 1960's Ismailis of subcontinent followed Sunni Hanafi Tariqa allowed by MSMS in saying Eid Namaz, Juma Namaz, Janaza Namaz, Ziarat, Nikah; in Namaz jamaits were folding hands. In Janaza Namaz they used to recite 4 Takbirs and not 7 Takbirs like in USA, Canada, England or in African countries where Ismails live.
You can investigate, still there are thousands of senior Ismailis alive who can confirm. If I knew when lately you were in Pakistan, I should have provided proof and have handed you material and books printed by Ismailia Association.
You did not provide quote by Corbin about mongols being Shariyatis.
( you have no answer).
Daftary is second in command at IIS. Long ago he was hired by Board of Directors headed by chairmanship of Hazar Imam. His books are announced in JKs and there had been lectures on his books. If there had been any wrong material in his book Imam or any one from Board of Directors had objected. He has given references what he wrote, spare some time to read them instead of just useless arguments.
As I have mentioned before, I am giving proofs from material printed by ITREB, Associations, ISS, or yours Heritage.
BE IBNUL WAQT AS YOU HAVE BEEN QUOTING!
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Very smart move.
But why MSMS particularly with stress strongly used the words 'Haqiqati momin NOT ONLY fast in the month of Ramadan'? Because he wanted his followers should fast in Ramadan. According to your explanation a Haqiqati momin attend JK 360 days but there is no mention of any particular month but here Imam particularly mention fast in the month of Ramadan.
He mentioned the month of Ramadhan to dispel any notion of physical fast, hence the haqiqati momins are to observe the fast for 360 days. There is no concept of fasting in Ramadhan only, it is for 360 days.
shivaathervedi wrote:

You are selective and did not answer my other queries about Tusi, about quotation of Daftry, about Ismaili Trinity, and you wrote, " Is not Allah from Noor e Imamat!!"?
Does not the Qur'an state that Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth? Isn't the Imam the bearer of the Noor? Hence can't you say that Allah is the Light of Imamat?
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Very smart move.
But why MSMS particularly with stress strongly used the words 'Haqiqati momin NOT ONLY fast in the month of Ramadan'? Because he wanted his followers should fast in Ramadan. According to your explanation a Haqiqati momin attend JK 360 days but there is no mention of any particular month but here Imam particularly mention fast in the month of Ramadan.
He mentioned the month of Ramadhan to dispel any notion of physical fast, hence the haqiqati momins are to observe the fast for 360 days. There is no concept of fasting in Ramadhan only, it is for 360 days.
shivaathervedi wrote:

You are selective and did not answer my other queries about Tusi, about quotation of Daftry, about Ismaili Trinity, and you wrote, " Is not Allah from Noor e Imamat!!"?
Does not the Qur'an state that Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth? Isn't the Imam the bearer of the Noor? Hence can't you say that Allah is the Light of Imamat?


Does a haqiqati momin stop eating and drinking round the year, of course not. How many haqiqati momins are in any one particular jamait? Count the heads proriye in BK. Some one should pay attention, why Imam particularly used the wordings 'not only fast in the month of Ramadan'? He should not have used these words in first place but had made Farman directly for good deeds and ibadat. He used these particular wording to divert attention of his followers to fast in the month of Ramadan as other Ismailis in different countries were doing. It was a kind of refreshing Hidayat for those who were negligence in that regard.

You wrote;
Does not the Qur'an state that Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth? Isn't the Imam the bearer of the Noor? Hence can't you say that Allah is the Light of Imamat?
You are contradicting your statement. You quote, 'Allah is the light of heavens and earth'. So Allah's Noor comes first then comes Noor e Imamat which is from Allah's Noor. You are also from Noor of Allah that does not mean Allah is from Kmaherali's Noor!! ( every particle in universe is from Allah's Noor).
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