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Fasting
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sofiya



Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 231

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RAMADAN 1426 AH IS EXPECTED TO START ON THE DAY OF WED 05 OCT 2005 CE FOR MOST OF THE WORLD, INSHALLAH.
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE HILAL (CRESCENT MOON) OF RAMADHAN 1426 AH TO BE VISIBLE ON THE EVENING OF MON 03 OCT 2005 CE FROM ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.
HENCE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR RAMADAN 1426 AH TO BEGIN ON TUE 04 OCT 2005 CE FOR ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.
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Virgo2



Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:46 pm    Post subject: Fasting Reply with quote

Dear brother Shamsu,

I am a fairly new member on this site and I have been going through the posts to find information on fasting, whereupon I came to your post of
April 29, 2003 in response to iandiali. You state: "As Ismailis we were released from all shariati binds by Imam Alazikhrisalaam approximately 1000 yrs ago. "

I wish you could have gone two Imams after Imam Alazikhrisalaam S.A.W. and you would have found that Imam Jalaludin Hassan S.A.W. reinstated the Sharia. This could have been because of persecutions of Ismailis after the declaration of Qiyama. Please read Daftary's "The Ismailis, page 405 "As noted, intending to achieve a rapprochement with the Sunni world, Hasan had already prepared the way for his own drastic reform. Our Persian historians related that upon his accession, Hasan publicly repudiated the doctrine of the qiyama and proclaimed his adherence to Sunni Islam...."


Although this might sound a bit exaggerated, but the fact remains that he did reinstate Sharia,call it Taqqiya or whatever .

However, after Sharia was reinstated, no Imam has removed Sharia, and Sharia is applicable to us, but as modified by the Pirs under the guidance of the later Imams, e...g. Imam Mustansirbillah II, S.A.W.. Fasting is prescribed for us as for other Muslims, although our fasting includes ethics. I would like to quote Ghazzali here:

Imam Ghazzali says in Essential Sufism (edited by James Fadiman and Robert Frager) on page 8:



1. The fasting of the general public involves refraining from satisfying the appetite of the stomach and the appetite of the sex;

2. The fasting of the select few is to keep the ears,the eyes, the tongue, the hands, and the feet as well as the other senses free from sin;

3. The fasting of the elite among the select few is the fast of the heart from mean thoughts and worldly worries and its complete unconcern with anything other than God and the last day, as well as concern over this world.

Fasting in No.3 is what our Imams and Pirs have emphasized. As Ghazzali says below, if our hearts are not clean, refraining from food and drink is useless.



Imam Ghazzali says in Ihya Ulum-id-din Book 1, Page 206

The Prophet said: Five things destroy fasting – falsehood, back-biting, slander, perjury and look with sexual passion.



He also states on the same page The Prophet said: “One sin is written for one whose efforts during the day are made only to prepare for breaking fast.”


How much food is consumed by people when they fast? I go to a lot of non-Ismaili Muslim friends' Iftars and the hostess almost always claims that she did not fast because she wanted to prepare food for Iftar. I have now stopped going to these Iftaris because I believe nobody has to cheat God in order to prepare a meal for me to break the fast.



During the time of the Prophet, the Prophet and Mowla Ali worked from dawn to dusk, but you go to Islamic countries, especially in the Middle East, and they work from 10 a.m. to 1 p.m.

Anyway, Allah S.W.T. does not desire hardship for us. He has said so in the Qur'an. It is NOT A SIN not to fast, but it is a sin to lie, steal, backbite, etc.

Please do not say that we, Ismailis, are exempted from fasting. And fasting is not a sin or going against the Imam's Farmans, because Imam has not made any such farmans. The Imam himself fasts. Those of you, who can, please go to Ismailisoul and read Kha Andani's post on fasting.

Have a happy Ramadhan Mubarak and May Allah S.W.T. bless you all and give you Iman ni Salamati, peace and barakat. Ameen.

Virgo2
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19811

PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>>Let us pause this Ramadan and ask ourselves a few questions. Who
>>were we? What happened to us along the way? Where do we stand
>>today? Which way are we going?
>>_____________________________________
>>
>>THE MONTH of Ramadan is here again. We Muslims will once again
>>launch headlong into starving ourselves every day from dawn to
>>dusk. In all our religious obligations we have become so
>>ritualistic that the substance is almost forgotten and the form has
>>been kindled into worship itself. We have become past masters at
>>missing the woods for the trees.
>>
>>Like all the Ramadans before, the prices of daily commodities are
>>sure to sky-rocket. One is led to believe as if on a cue the fields
>>have started to yield less, the cows to hide their milk and the
>>hens to lay fewer eggs. The common man is left with just enough
>>skin by the traders to re-grow for the next Ramadan.
>>
>>Yet the same traders will go back to their Iftaars and prayers with
>>a solemnity the like of which is not seen the year round. After
>>each prayer they will implore Allah for forgiveness
>>and prosperity for self and their brethren. Refreshed from heavy
>>Iftaars, they will get on with renewed vigor to add tap water to
>>milk, used engine oil to edible oil and ground bricks to spices..
>>They will sell what they can without a qualm and hoard the rest to
>>exact a telling price from their customers in the days to come.
>>That leaves them with just enough time to be present for Taraweeh
>>and once again beseech Allah for mercy. Their consciences, of
>>course, look on through the eyes of a dead fish all this while. To
>>be fair, though, the traders are not alone in this.
>>
>>The rest of us are not much different the year round and in the
>>month of Ramadan? No amount of prayers has been able to instill
>>discipline, harmony, genuine piety and a quest for knowledge in us.
>>We continue to inconvenience others by miss-parking our cars,
>>throwing refuse out in the streets, honking horns
>>at each other, jumping red lights at the traffic signals, slamming
>>doors in peoples faces, telling blatant lies for petty profits,
>>disrobing women by unashamed ogling, spitting huge globs of saliva
>>in a to-whom-it-may-concern fashion, never turning up on time for
>>appointments and keeping taped sermons on the whole night blaring
>>at full strength from Mosques' minarets long after the Maulanas
>>themselves have gone into a deep snooze.
>>
>>One rarely sees any one imploring others to stand in line, run to
>>give a helping hand to a disabled, get up to vacate a seat for
>>ladies or the elderly, take care of personal hygiene, or keep his
>>immediate surroundings clean and pollution free. We are busy
>>instead in quibbling over the length of facial hair, where to tie
>>our shalwars for offering prayers, and our hands while in prayers,
>>the number of Rakaats in certain prayers, digging
>>up relevant Ahadeeth to suit our purposes, declaring more Muslims
>>as non-Muslims, pronouncing non-Muslims as Wajeb-ul-Qatal (liable
>>to be slain), issuing Fatwas on non-issues, finding short-cuts to
>>heavens, declaring Jihad on every thing but on purification of
>>self, illiteracy, poverty, backwardness and hunger.
>>
>>We continue to think of ourselves as God's chosen people while our
>>conduct shows any thing but. We are busy instead in looking down
>>upon all other religions and people with a royal contempt,
>>censuring the West for all our ills, finding a Jew at the root of
>>all our miseries, blaming every one but our own selves for our
>>wretched state and conjuring up conspiracy theories out of thin air
>>to validate our gripes. Some hypocrisy---self included.
>>
>>If cleanliness is half the faith then the West of today, the Viking
>>brutes of yester-years, have beaten us to
>>the claim hands down. If the other half is the rights of others on
>>us then again we need to turn our heads westward to behold the
>>sight.
>>
>>Islam is not just about prayers and worship. A significant number
>>of Ayahs in the Holy Koran deal with purification of self,
>>interaction with others, knowledge of the universe and what is
>>contained therein. The West is busy conquering the same universe,
>>solving its riddles, harnessing the nature for the benefit of
>>mankind and finding that time is their only competitor. From
>>medicines to cure our diseases, to the cars we drive and the
>>airplanes we fly in to visit our holy places, we are dependent for
>>all our systems on the same West.
>>
>>Yes, a handful of powerful Western leaders holding the reins of
>>brute political and armed power have indeed unleashed a war on
>>Muslims. And yes, as a result innocent human beings are surely
>>being trampled upon ruthlessly. And yes, even genuine liberation struggles now
>>stand deluged by the dam burst of venom against Islam. And yes,
>>terrorism certainly has become a whip with which Muslims are now
>>being flogged the world over. And yes again that Muslim countries
>>are undeniably being either invaded or threatened with invasion on
>>the flimsiest of pretexts.
>>
>>But how does the Muslim world propose to counter that? Can we
>>restore ourselves to our glorious past by suicide bombing or
>>beheading of innocent human beings? Or by issuing Fatwas to that
>>effect? Or by continuing to pray for Divine intervention? Or by
>>hating the whole West for the stupidity of a just a few of their
>>leaders? Has it occurred to us that the only, repeat only, way to
>>walk tall and strong in the comity of nations is to come at par
>>with the West in education, technology and economy?
>>
>>
>>Look at the Muslim world today. We cannot complain of being barren
>>of resources. One fourth of the world population is Muslim and sits
>>on nearly seventy percent of the world energy resources. Yet the
>>Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of the entire Muslim world taken
>>together comes to a measly twelve to thirteen hundred billion
>>dollars. Japan's GDP, by comparison, stands at five thousand five
>>hundred billion and Germany's at two thousand five hundred billion
>>dollars. In other words, Germany's GDP alone is twice and Japan's
>>is four and a half times that of the entire Muslim Ummah.
>>
>>Islam teaches us to seek knowledge, even if it involved travel to
>>China. Quite evidently the Prophet (PBUH) was actually referring to
>>worldly education, and not religious, as the Chinese were always
>>non-Muslims. While from the 7th to 15th century AD, transfer of
>>technology took place from the
>>Muslims to the rest of the world, we have been in a horrendous
>>downslide ever since.
>>
>>The once wonderful madarasah was supposed to be a prestigious seat
>>of learning. It was a bastion of knowledge and a guiding light to
>>the world. When Islam was at its pinnacle, every order of learning
>>from mathematics to science, from medicine to astronomy, from
>>philosophy to jurisprudence were taught at these institutions.
>>
>>Great Muslim luminaries such as Al-Beruni, Ibn-e-Sina and
>>Ibn-e-Khuldoon were the products of these same very madaris. Sects
>>and different schools of thought in Islam have existed side by side
>>since long. There was nothing wrong with intellectual differences
>>flowing from freedom of thought as long as such differences
>>remained confined to academic debates. Embedded in the walls of
>>these madaris are echoes of great scholarly dialogue between
>>various luminaries of the
>>time.
>>
>>Take a look at the state of education today. In the entire Muslim
>>world, there are only about 380 universities, of which just 25 are
>>counted as world ranking. The entire Muslim world produces a total
>>of 500 PhD's every year. By comparison, in Japan alone one thousand
>>universities award PhD degrees. In England, three thousand do PhD
>>and in India five thousand every year.
>>
>>And about the state of technology of the Muslim world, the less
>>said the better. At the time when the US invaded
>>Afghanistan, there was only one factory in Kabul manufacturing
>>earthen crockery. No wonder then that an international
>>correspondent called the US invasion of Afghanistan as "Technology
>>Vs God".
>>
>>Now the same madaris are being used to mislead innocent Muslims by
>>promoting intolerance, hatred and violence. Modernistic thought is
>>termed blasphemous. The syllabus has been honed to
>>instill sectarian loathing resulting naturally in fratricidal
>>killings. The subject of "Haqooqul Ibad" (obligations towards
>>fellow human beings) has been confined to scriptures and an
>>occasional lip service.
>>
>>From the podium and the pulpit, the so called Ulema have declared
>>more Muslims as Kafirs (infidels) than motivating these so called
>>Kafirs to embrace Islam. Adherents are being incited to kill
>>innocent people in mosques and their places of worship, while
>>audaciously claiming Islam as a Deen or a complete way of life.
>>Muslims' consciences are now being put to sleep here with sweet
>>lullabies of their marvelous past as the world goes by at a breath
>>taking speed. We are told to keep hugging past splendors to our
>>chest and remain prostate in prayers waiting for a Salahuddin Ayubi
>>to appear and restore us to our rightful destiny.
>>
>>Is this the way of life
>>that Islam teaches us? That we fight amongst ourselves and others
>>and take innocent lives in their places of Worship? And all in the
>>name of Allah? True Islam is nothing but kindness, forgiveness,
>>compassion, honesty, fair play, goodwill and accord. There is no
>>place for extremism, militancy, violence, fundamentalism, hatred,
>>intolerance and anger. Mosques, Mandirs, Synagogues, Churches and
>>Temples are all supposed to be sacred places of worship where we
>>seek the blessings of God Almighty and where we must allow others
>>to seek the same from whatever entity they call God.
>>
>>There is a race for progress among all nations. The world is busy
>>in development of human resource, mental enlightenment and sound
>>technological growth. We have to wake up from our self-imposed
>>slumber and join the race. The alternate will for sure condemn us
>>to crawl on all fours eating the dust of the beaten
>>path trailing leaders who are even now well past the horizons.
>>
>>Let us pause this Ramadan and ask ourselves a few questions. Who
>>were we? What happened to us along the way? Where do we stand
>>today? Which way are we going?
>>
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nagib



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:40 am    Post subject: Re: Fasting Reply with quote

Virgo2 wrote:
Please do not say that we, Ismailis, are exempted from fasting. And fasting is not a sin or going against the Imam's Farmans, because Imam has not made any such farmans. The Imam himself fasts.
Virgo2


What kind of misrepresentation is this?

There are plenty of farmans that fasting in the sense of not eating is not for us. And to say that Hazar Imam fast is pure nonsense. First whatever does the Imam is not of our concern, second when you do not know something, you should search for truth, not just repeat what you have heard.

When you say no Imam has made farmans that we should not fast, how many farmans have you read and from hom many Imams? And what do you want the Imam to do, he has already made himself the lunch menu for the Jamat to eat during Ramada in 1980 and 1985 when he gave didar to Paris jamat, I have mentionned that he invited all the leaders to Aiglemont for lunch also and gave them to eat and to his family. Still we do not understand. Do you want him to preach on CNN for Ismailis now? WOuld you like me to show you the movie of Hazar Imam eating during Ramazan? Why don't you come to my place someday, I will show you the movie.
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Aeesta



Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Fasting Reply with quote

nagib wrote:
Virgo2 wrote:
Please do not say that we, Ismailis, are exempted from fasting. And fasting is not a sin or going against the Imam's Farmans, because Imam has not made any such farmans. The Imam himself fasts.
Virgo2


What kind of misrepresentation is this?

There are plenty of farmans that fasting in the sense of not eating is not for us. And to say that Hazar Imam fast is pure nonsense. First whatever does the Imam is not of our concern, second when you do not know something, you should search for truth, not just repeat what you have heard.

When you say no Imam has made farmans that we should not fast, how many farmans have you read and from hom many Imams? And what do you want the Imam to do, he has already made himself the lunch menu for the Jamat to eat during Ramada in 1980 and 1985 when he gave didar to Paris jamat, I have mentionned that he invited all the leaders to Aiglemont for lunch also and gave them to eat and to his family. Still we do not understand. Do you want him to preach on CNN for Ismailis now? WOuld you like me to show you the movie of Hazar Imam eating during Ramazan? Why don't you come to my place someday, I will show you the movie.



Well said nagib. There are some people here who do not have enough knowledge and yet behave as if they know everything. I am glad you spoke out.
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curious2



Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 142

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that movie just reserved for you and-or selective folks? Is there any chance rest of the poor ismailis could take a look at Imam eating during ramadan (and during fast hours) that is according to you and that movie?

Just curious.
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Virgo2



Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brother Nagib wrote:

When you say no Imam has made farmans that we should not fast, how many farmans have you read and from hom many Imams? And what do you want the Imam to do, he has already made himself the lunch menu for the Jamat to eat during Ramada in 1980 and 1985 when he gave didar to Paris jamat, I have mentionned that he invited all the leaders to Aiglemont for lunch also and gave them to eat and to his family. Still we do not understand. Do you want him to preach on CNN for Ismailis now? WOuld you like me to show you the movie of Hazar Imam eating during Ramadan?

Virgo2: I have read many farmans in my life and no where has the Imam said "Do not fast". He has always advised us to follow the Islamic principles and ethics. He does not need to spell out. On the other hand, late Imam had said that abstaining from food and not abstaining from sins is not for us. MSMS had said that even a donkey can fast if you tie up his mouth. What he was saying is that abstaining from food alone is not enough because it is better to refrain from sins instead. Even the Prophet (PBUH) has said this. Unfortunately, the Ismailis have taken half the farman that suits their psyche and discarded the other half.

I have relatives working with Hazar Imam and they have said that whenever they have met Hazar Imam during the month of Ramadhan, they have found him fasting and they too have fasted - albeit not all of them.



A few years ago Canadian Government had hosted a lunch in honor of MHI which was later moved to a dinner and the government's announcement was that it was the month of Ramadhan and the Aga Khan was fasting. It was in the news. This is another place where I heard about HI fasting.

You are right brother Nagib, I am not knowledgeable and am not trying to pretend that either. I am here to learn from people like you who have a lot of knowledge. If you know of any of Mowla's farman, please quote me one wherein he says "Do not fast".

Virgo2
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nagib



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure what you want, you have quoted yourself the farman of Imam saying that donkeys also fast when you shut their mouth. Why would you say Ismailis are only obeying half of the farmans? I know Mmany Ismailis who obey the other half also icon_wink.gif

What do you want me to quote? Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah saying in Usule Din 1899 Zanzibar that thwere are 2 ways, one sticking to namaz and roza and the other searching for haqiqat and these 2 will never meet?

Or are these two way of interpreting religion now meeting some place within the Shariati Ismaili community [if there is one shariati and one haqiqati?] Or do you want me to quote you hadith of Prophet Muhammed [PBUH] which is reported by Imam Aga Ali Shah that our prophet said after his death the 72 sects performing rozas will be on the wrong path and only the small one not performing it will be on the right path as they will live in the love of Ali and his progeny. Or do you want me to quote Imam Alazikrihis salaam.

I don't think this will satisfy any of those engulf in the love of Shariah and rozas, if these farmans where to make any diference, Imam SUltan Muhammad Shah would be wrong saying that shariatis and haquiqatis were on 2 different paths. And so would be all our forfather who were not keeping any roza and for whom in his first farman the Imam has said that only their faith will unable us to live in peace.

And some one could tell me Imam keeps roza, gambles in casino, drinks alcohol and believe me people and newspapers have said so and it does not make any iota of difference in my belief in him. Last week an Ismaili asked me "waht is my return on investment if I give dassond?". These questions are the same as those about roza, shariati do not give dassond, they give zakat maybe, and maybe khums but no dassond to the Imam. Am I going to waste this forums time on convincing any of these? certainely not.

These debate are useless in the sense that when two understanding of faith are completely based on different premisses, it is impossible to have any kind of middle of the way compromise.

Nagib
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19811

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A verse from Moman Chetamni might be of assistance here!

620. Do not look at what Ali does, but obey what He says, for as the times will change, Ali's actions may be beyond your comprehension
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curious2



Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 142

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or how about a verse from Soloko suggesting to hide your deen and not reveal it?? That would do it too !!!. What else do we want to quote here?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19811

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

curious2 wrote:
Or how about a verse from Soloko suggesting to hide your deen and not reveal it?? That would do it too !!!. What else do we want to quote here?
There is no question about hiding ones deen. The Imams would not establish high profile JKs if we were meant to hide our faith.

This is not a black and white issue and whatever helps in giving perspective to the issue may be quoted.
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arifsali2000



Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
There is no question about hiding ones deen. The Imams would not establish high profile JKs if we were meant to hide our faith.

This is not a black and white issue and whatever helps in giving perspective to the issue may be quoted.


YAM Kmaherali, regardless of high profile JKs, non-ismailis still cannot get into our JKs .... well, take a look ... you'll get the idea of what I'm trying to say.

http://al-islam.org/organizations/aalimnetwork/msg00341.html

When we love our murshid, we should then accept responsibility for him. Unless murshid wish to tell us whether he want us to tell others whether he is fasting in ramadhan or not, we should not attempt to tell others anything. This is pure and simple responsibility with love.

I think we should be able to make a good case without telling others what our Imam does or does not on any particular topic.

My take on above recent comments.

YAM
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Kafton



Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Fasting Reply with quote

nagib wrote:
farhatnoorali wrote:
this is the first time i am doing post... I personallly never heard any farmans in which any of our Imam(AS) stopped us for ramadan fasting


Youi'll have to go through the farmans. Many Imams have done so. From Imam Hassan Ala'Zikrihis Salam on 8 August 1164 on Ramadan 17th when at noon he removed the burden of Namaz and Roza and celebrated Idd with a big feast at mid-day to many many farmans of Aga Ali Shah to Even Mowlana Shah Karim who hosted in Aiglemont in the middle of Ramadan in July 1980 for his leaders diner in his garden with his family.

Nagib
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Virgo2



Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brother Nagib,

Let me clarify to you that I do follow Shariah but not the way other Muslims do. I follow the Shariah the way true Ismailis do. Ismailis do follow Shariah, however, they follow it with Batini interpretation. Having said this, thank you for quoting the farmans of various Imams. Except for Imam Allah Zikhri As-Salaam, no other Imam has asked us to stop fasting. The farmans you have quoted do not say, "Do not fast". Yes, I said that Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah S.A.had said that even a donkey can fast, and you were happy about it, however, Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah said that that was not enough, one has to abstain from sins too, and committing sins while fasting destroys the purpose of fasting. Even the Prophet had said that.

As I said before, Ismailis got hung up on what was convenient, and that is why I say that they are following half the farman. They are supposed to abstain from food and from sins too. Also you quote Imam Allah Zikhri As-Salaam's proclamation of Qayama, etc. but you forget to mention that Imam Jallaludin Hassan had reinstated Shariah, etc. and I quoted Farhad Dafatary already for you. Again half the history has been quoted and other is dismissed for obvious reasons. Is it possible that the Ismailis are hung up on the farmans of the 26th Imam because those are convenient, and have discarded the farmans of the 28th Imam which do not suit them? Every new Imam's farmans supersede the previous Imam's farmans on any particular subject otherwise we would not have Imams, and, contiuous guidance according to the time, would be redundant.

Ismailis who go out and proclaim to non-Ismailis that Imam has forbidden us to fast, are betraying the Imam and are encouraging non-Ismaili Muslims to call us infidels and Arifsali has proved it to us through the link he has provided us. Others go and proclaim to non-Ismailis that Our Imam is God. These kind of statements are getting our people, living in predominantly Muslim countries, into a mess. Do you have enough knowledge and guts to go to the site Arifsali provided and prove that Ismailis are Muslims although they "are told not to fast and that their Imam is God".?

You may believe whatever you believe but do not attribute your beliefs to the whole Ismaili community because a lot of us do not share what you say. Someone even said in this forum that Ismailis who fast are going against the Imam's farmans? What farmans? Certainly not the ones you provided.

I must remind you that there are non-Ismailis in this forum pretending to be Ismailis and I know a couple of them already. These people use our statements here, in other forums and damage our faith and create problems for our Imam. We have to defend our Imam, and not put him in a position to defend our irresponsible statements.

You might have achieved marifat and hence you may believe Imam as a God, and no need for you to fast, but what about those who are still stuck at Shariati level? How can they accept your beliefs or even understand them? It is like throwing a 12th grade book at a student who is in grade 1. This is just an example. I do not know your spiritual level, neither have I read anywhere that you claim Imam as God.

I respect your knowledge and I understand what you are saying but your statements can cause confusion among people who are not at the same level of knowledge as you are.

Please do not take this as a disrespect for your beliefs or your knowledge, because that is not my intention.

Virgo2
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Virgo2



Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear brother Arifsali,

Thank you for the link that you provided. All these people who judge Ismailis do not see the fire burning under their own feet. How can these people judge us on the basis of half truths that they hear from our people. They do not make an effort to read the material put out by IIS or by other Ismaili scholars, instead they judge us on the basis of what their Ismaili friends tell them. It is obvious from the response, that the person has not done his homework and is confused about our true beliefs.

These people are in no position to judge us or anybody for that matter because they are the biggest idolators. Where in the Qur'an or the ahadith does it say to worship the shrines, or do mattam. Both these are foribidden in Islam. Now, who is najais us or them. Let Allah S.W.T. be the judge.

Virgo2
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curious2



Joined: 05 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Virgo2 wrote:
As I said before, Ismailis got hung up on what was convenient,


Gee Virgo2, are you prepared to get shot down becaue of this comment??? LOL, j/k. icon_lol.gif

You know they have invented an apt label for people who question: shariati ismailis......hahahahah....what a funny label that is.

Have fun. icon_wink.gif
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A believer through his good deeds reaches the position of one who worships all night and fasts during the day.

-The Prophet Muhammad, as reported by A'ishah bint Abi Bakr
Hadith translated by Aneela Khalid Arshed
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aminpunjani



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:03 am    Post subject: fast Reply with quote

<P>hi ya ali madad<BR>i fast in ramadan.....but fats is not o&shy;nly physical thnig.....it is from heart ....physical fast is for 30dayz but fast is somethnig spritual which is for whole life..........be far away from all lies....bad habbits etc....many non ismaili who fast they do ahsaan o&shy;n others,.......they dont work&nbsp; in that dayz....guyz dont go schoolz.,uni...as well...which is just waste but nothing esle......anbd after the iftari they do every thnig which is forbidden ......<BR>so for me fast is somethnig spiritual....every body cant fast...as human is unperfect they make lotz of mistake.....try to nopt to do thing which r forbiden in islam .......<BR>ya ali madad tc<BR></P>
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

• Many persons get nothing out of their fasts but hunger and thirst; many more get nothing out of their night prayers but exertions and sleepless nights. Wise and sagacious persons are praiseworthy even if they do not fast and sleep during the nights. - Hazarat Ali
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Piety does not consist in whether you face east or west during worship. True piety consists in this: believing in God and in his final judgement; believing in his angels, in the Book, and in the prophets; giving your wealth, for the sake of God, to your relatives, to orphans, to the needy, to wayfarers and to strangers; ransoming slaves; attending prayers and paying the poor-rate; being true to your promises; and being steadfast in times of distress, adversity and war. Those who show true piety, are genuine in their faith; they honour God.

-Qur'an, Al-Baqara, Surah 2:177

The above verse does not mention praying in the direction of Qibla, fasting or going for Hajj as acts of piety.
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Seeker



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could it be because the Quran was revealed in stages? Quoting just one verse without the historical context might not do justice to it. Yes, many verses have general content, independent of historical context. But religious practices were introduced in stages, as the community got ready for them. We need to therefore look at the interpretations and practices prevalent in the community (led by the Prophet) at the time that the Quranic revelation was completed / near completion.

Would that be more appropriate?
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seeker wrote:
Could it be because the Quran was revealed in stages? Quoting just one verse without the historical context might not do justice to it. Yes, many verses have general content, independent of historical context. But religious practices were introduced in stages, as the community got ready for them. We need to therefore look at the interpretations and practices prevalent in the community (led by the Prophet) at the time that the Quranic revelation was completed / near completion.

Would that be more appropriate?
This would raise the issue of the appropriateness of the religious practices 1400 years ago in todays circumstances. One may say that the principles underlying the practices are timeless but the practices themselves are timebound and will vary according to the prevalent circumstances. Islam is not static but is dynamic and therefore it cannot be anchored to an interpretation 1400 years ago. To illustrate this there is a prophetic hadith which states: "if during his lifetime the people of Arabia observed 90% of his injunctions, 10% would be forgiven. But after his death, if the followers observed even 10%, 90% would be forgiven."
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Seeker



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your response.

If what applied 1400 years ago does not apply now, then in that case, why do we as Ismailis often follow and quote from sources which are from even before Prophet's time (when we find it convenient)? E.g.:
- texts of Hinduism
- Bible

Also, the reality is that the world is changing quite fast. Why do we follow and quote from Pirs and others, and indeed even from ISMS, since the conditions (location and time) are so different now (from within Caste system in India, to East Africa, to the West...so much is different in today's environment). By your logic, those earlier Ismaili things that were for a different geography and time, also wouldnt apply anymore.

Your quote from Prophet seems to suggest that it would be desirable to follow his traditions even in later times...but those who cannot follow them due to any reason, would be forgiven.

Those who follow traditions from the Prophet's time or the Ithna Ashari could argue that which tradition is it really impossible to follow today...can we name one? Those who want to, are still following a lot of them.


I am trying to understand this logically:
We are supposed to follow MHI because we believe he descended from Hazrat Ali, who succeeded the Prophet, who brought us the Quran.

Now at each and any point, how much of the old do we retain and how much of the new do we follow? On one hand, we can argue that the oldest we have (1400 years ago) cant apply today. On the other hand, one can say that what applied even a decade ago cannot apply today!

Wondering how to solve this.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seeker wrote:
Thanks for your response.
You are welcome!
Seeker wrote:

If what applied 1400 years ago does not apply now, then in that case, why do we as Ismailis often follow and quote from sources which are from even before Prophet's time (when we find it convenient)? E.g.:
- texts of Hinduism
- Bible
As I said, we have to differentiate between practices and principles underlying them. The former can vary with time whereas the latter are timeless. Some principles are universal and would apply to any tradition. If these are expressed well in the Gita then we could quote them and if they are expressed in the hadith then we would quote them as well. We respect pluralism of beliefs.
Seeker wrote:

Also, the reality is that the world is changing quite fast. Why do we follow and quote from Pirs and others, and indeed even from ISMS, since the conditions (location and time) are so different now (from within Caste system in India, to East Africa, to the West...so much is different in today's environment). By your logic, those earlier Ismaili things that were for a different geography and time, also wouldnt apply anymore.

As I said some Farmans and traditions are timeless whereas others are time bound. So we retain the timeless aspects and ignore those which are specific to a historical context.
Seeker wrote:

Your quote from Prophet seems to suggest that it would be desirable to follow his traditions even in later times...but those who cannot follow them due to any reason, would be forgiven.

Those who follow traditions from the Prophet's time or the Ithna Ashari could argue that which tradition is it really impossible to follow today...can we name one? Those who want to, are still following a lot of them.
An example would be to say Namaz five times a day when you are working. Fasting is raising a lot of productivity issues in the Muslim world. So I believe compromises are made when people follow too rigidly the traditions of the past.
Seeker wrote:

I am trying to understand this logically:
We are supposed to follow MHI because we believe he descended from Hazrat Ali, who succeeded the Prophet, who brought us the Quran.

Now at each and any point, how much of the old do we retain and how much of the new do we follow? On one hand, we can argue that the oldest we have (1400 years ago) cant apply today. On the other hand, one can say that what applied even a decade ago cannot apply today!

Wondering how to solve this.
That is the reason we have a living Imam who guides us towards our interpretation. The traditions that we follow are approved by him.
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snow_white



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<P>Hazar imam said that it is not necessary to fast in Ramadan. But our bij is most important. It is equal to all those ramdan fasting. </P>
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Virgo2



Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Snowwhite,

Where can I find this information?


Quote:
<P>Hazar imam said that it is not necessary to fast in Ramadan. But our bij is most important. It is equal to all those ramdan fasting. </P>


Virgo2
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razinizar



Joined: 24 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Snow White
Please Don't pass the false information, if you don't have a proper reference
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snow_white



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Fourth Pillar is to fast during the month of Ramadan. This means to have no food or water, nor smoke or have sex from dawn to dusk (the sick, aged and travelers are exempted) during this month. Ismaili's do not fast during this time. One should be spiritual everyday of the year and not just for one lunar month. There are farmans which suggest that fasting is giving up evil acts everyday and not just for one month. Some point to Imam Hasan II's ending of the fast when he proclaimed the Qiyamat in the 12th century as to the reason Ismailis no longer fast during Ramadan. However, Ismailis do have some days where they do fast. In the "Ceremonies" section of a children's text on Religious Education we find that these fast days are called Shakravari Beej meaning "New Moon of
Friday." On New Moon nights Ismailis have special ceremonies to confess their sins and when the New Moon falls on a Friday (usually 2-3 times a year) they fast in the tradition Islamic way.
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nagib



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

razinizar wrote:
Dear Snow White
Please Don't pass the false information, if you don't have a proper reference


Snow White may not have the proper reference but his/her information is right. I urge you to read the whole thread to refresh your memory on what has already been discusses on this subject.

There are 3 kind of Roza [fasts]

1) Those who are required and obligatory [Beej]
2) Those who are optional
3) Those who are forbidden.

How do you know which one is which?

Very simple. A Roza is required from an Ismaili if his Imam has said so.
A Roza is forbidden if the Imam has said so
A Roza is optional when the Imam has left to a person the decision to do it. [Like Satima jo Rojo which in one of the Talikah I have read, the Imam has called SatmiRat and in another MowlaJoRojo]

The Jamat in Salamieh, Syria is strong enough historically not to keep the Ramadhan Roza as ORDERED by their Imam. Even though they are under pressure from their Sunni neighbours. In some countries they are not brave enough and would even say to other Ismailis that they have to keep Rozas in Ramadan. In Syria the Sunnis of Hama go to Salamieh restaurants to eat afternoon lunch [20 km drive] because all restaurants are open there.

In 1980 July, Hazar Imam gave Didar to Paris Jamat in the middle of the month of Ramadan. Guess who decided of the Menu for lunch for the Jamat? [sitting arrangement please icon_smile.gif

So definately Snow White you may not have the sources but you are on the Right Path. Foget about the reformers. Here in Nairobi we have plenty of them. Last Friday about 100 Ismailis could be found in the 3 Masjids around Parklands Jamatkhana. Their comon point? They were all fasting Ramadhan and felt a lot closer to other Muslims going to Masjid then to Ismailis who went to Jamatkhanas.

Sultan Muhammad Shah said Shariat and Haqiqat are world apart and shall NEVER meet. Let the reformers go to Shariat. We have gone a long way already towards Haqiqat to go back. Imam said You were Muslims and you have gone one step higher, you have become Ismailis. Some of us want to go back one step lower to please their "Muslim" breathren. Let them do so. When Hazar Imam was asked if during His Imamat He wanted to see the number of Ismailis increase He said "ABSOLUTELY NOT!". Sultan Muhammad Shah also warned that if you start following Shariat you will drift away from Haqiqat.

In Ismailism, only the Imam of the Time can change a Farman made in the past [be it an hour, a day or a century]. Let the reformers search forever for a Farman where any Imam has reversed the Farmans about not doing fast in ramadhan.

By the way, if someone want all the dates of Didar that have happened during Ramadan, it is not difficult to find. And also to discover that there are countries where this does not happen and there are countries where this happens. This shows a lot about the [in]tolerance and the negation of pluralism in the Muslim world. I do not know Arabic but I know Hazar imam has quoted the Quran on [something like Dinikum lakum dini etc? the Quran says tell them: unto you your faith and unto me my faith]

Nagib
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Virgo2



Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Snow white:

Quote:
The Fourth Pillar is to fast during the month of Ramadan. This means to have no food or water, nor smoke or have sex from dawn to dusk (the sick, aged and travelers are exempted) during this month. Ismaili's do not fast during this time.



Why don’t the Ismailis fast during this month? I know a lot of Ismailis, including myself, who fast. And I know a lot of non-Ismaili Muslims who do not fast.


Quote:
There are farmans which suggest that fasting is giving up evil acts everyday and not just for one month.


I agree there are farmans on Spiritual fast, but I do not recall farmans of our late Imam or present Imam asking us not to fast.


Quote:
Some point to Imam Hasan II's ending of the fast when he proclaimed the Qiyamat in the 12th century as to the reason Ismailis no longer fast during Ramadan.


In the same century Imam Jalaludin Hassan A.S. reinstated fasting and Sharia as a whole. Please read The Ismailis by Daftary. I have noted that nobody mentions this.

Quote:
However, Ismailis do have some days where they do fast. In the "Ceremonies" section of a children's text on Religious Education we find that these fast days are called Shakravari Beej meaning "New Moon of
Friday."
On New Moon nights Ismailis have special ceremonies to confess their sins and when the New Moon falls on a Friday (usually 2-3 times a year) they fast.


You are right. This is a compulsory fast for us with some exceptions. But this fast is not better than Ramadhan fasts or vice versa. No Imam has stated this.

I believe we do tauba for our sins everyday morning and night when we go to JK. We do the same on Chandrat, except that we receive a special chanta for forgiveness of our sins. There is more to the chanta than just forgiveness of sins.

Brother Nagib, With all due respect - I spent 3 years in Syria. I saw many Ismailis fasting, and those who were not fasting, lied that they were fasting. Even in Salamieh, many Ismailis fasted. Salamieh is not the only place where restaurants are open during Ramadhan. In Damascus there were restaurants that were open during the month of Ramadhan. My mother was ill during Ramadhan and we took her to a restaurant to eat. My Sunni neighbour who had accompanied us also ate there. Nobody asked him anything. Lattakia is another place where we went during the month of Ramadhan and restaurants were open.

In Tanzania, there was Niaz every day during the month of Ramadhan until late sixties when I left. People broke fast after partaking Niaz in JK.

Virgo2



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