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Kalame Mowla
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
For example one of the scholar Tazim Kassam in her well known book "Songs of wisdom and circle of dances" has included ginan "Navroj na din sohamna" among the ginans of Pir Shams. May be the word "bhare syed Shamsi" would have led to presume it as ginan of Pir Shams. Actually that ginan was composed by Syed Fateh Ali (his name is also there in ginan) at the time of Imam Khalilullah.


Absolutely right, what a big mistakes the Tazim made!! same way lots of jamati members making mistakes between Indra Imamdin and Syed Imam Shah and your clarification below is right which is also backing with my one older post too please read our both post which are as follows:-

Quote:
In brief history of Ismailism, Abu Ali Missionary has written "Pir Imamudin (our 8th Pir) served served his father Imam Muhammad bin Ismail and brother Imam Wafi Ahmed. He died at the age of 51 in 202 A.H...........Pir Imamudin is mentioned as Pir Indra Imam din in popular list of Holy Pirs. Indra is an Indian title. The Pir never visited India. Some transcribers has made this mistake.


Now read my an older post for same clarification. which I wrote on August 13, 2011:-

Quote:
Sayed Imamshah was not our appointed pir but he was sadat, he was son of pir Hasan Kabirdin (s.a.), nephew of pir Tajdin, grand son of pir Sadardin and brother of BAI BUDHAI, he composed many ginans and his ginans are still reciting in jamat khana today.
He was thinking that after the death of his father pir Hasan Kabirdin (s.a.) he was strong candidate for the piratan but Imam give piratan to pir Tajdin, so he become little disappointed first but after the visit of Imam Islamshah (s.a.) He realized that the office of Pir (piratan) can only be bestowed by the Imam of the time (Imam-e-Zaman) after that realization he composed many valuable ginans, granths and shastra.
You will be surprise but many ginans of Syed Imam shah also have in possession of Imamshahi sect, I compared our ginans with their ginas but basically they are all same except few changes in words.
Pir Indra Imamdin was our 8Th pir appointed by Imam Wafi Ahmed but he never came in India and so that he never composed any ginan in Gujarati, Khojki, Urdu or any other Indo-Pak subcontinent spoken languages during his time.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes thats absolutely true.
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MR-FORGET



Joined: 28 Nov 2010
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, you say 'KALAM E MOWLA" is not composed by Pir Shahs (s.a.) ! but Aga Shamsuddin composed that, wasn't he cousin of Sultan Mohammad Shah (s.a.)?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19678

PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are some profound sayings of Hazarat Ali in the book by late Alwaez Shamshu Bandali Haji: The Noor En Allah Noor which can be accessed at:

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/15495

The saying are on pages 160 - 162
http://ismaili.net/heritage/files/NoorEnAllahNoor81-176_0.pdf
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5914

PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:

Pir Indra Imamdin was our 8Th pir appointed by Imam Wafi Ahmed but he never came in India and so that he never composed any ginan in Gujarati, Khojki, Urdu or any other Indo-Pak subcontinent spoken languages during his time.


Let me clarify. TWO Pirs were known as Pir Indra Imamuddin, one is the son of Pir Noordin and the second is Seyyed Imam Shah. The ginans were written by Seyyed Imam Shah, sometimes called Pir Imamuddin (Pir by respect like some call Nassir Khusraw as "Pir" Nassir Khusraw", not a Satadhari Pir though his ginans have been recognised by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah..


Last edited by Admin on Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MR-FORGET wrote:
So, you say 'KALAM E MOWLA" is not composed by Pir Shahs (s.a.) ! but Aga Shamsuddin composed that, wasn't he cousin of Sultan Mohammad Shah (s.a.)?


Kalame Mowla was composed by Pir Shams and there are manuscripts of Kalame Mowla soon to be made available which are written when Aga Shamsudin was not yet born.

Perhaps Aga Shamsudin of which I do not know the history, was the one who divided the Kalame Mowla into chapters with a subject for each. The original work has the sames verses (minus the first 3 added later) but was in prose as a continuous text. Only recent manuscripts show the text divided into subject chapters. But as I said I do not know if Aga Shamsudin has any role in the modern version.
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agakhani



Joined: 20 May 2015
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waez # 173
Waez delivered date 9 August, 1987
Place: Elodea, Ontario
Title of Waez:- Dunia ghar Matamka.
Subject:- Kalame Mowla.

In this waez Rai saheb mentioned the history of Kalme Molwa, according him it was first composed some where after year 1800 by a grand son of Imam Hasan Ali Shah (s.a.) his name was Aga Shamsudiin ( not Pir Shams as wrote above) Aga Shamsuddin also wrote a famous Munajat 'ya ali Khub Mijalis Jinnat Karke Faras bichhayi Gali " also in Hindi language.
That prove that Pir Shams didn't composed "KALAME MOWLA" because that time Hindi language was not so popular but Aga Shamsuddin ( may be called pir Shams) composed 'Kalame Mowla' which is backing my arguments and questions above, please read my arguments in green coded color above.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamsuddin died in 1901. He was not born when Kalame Mowla was written. As I said we have manuscripts which are old enough to confirm this.
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agakhani



Joined: 20 May 2015
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please post it here so, I can make sure.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5914

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It will be part of tens of thousands of scans of Ismaili Khojki manuscripts to be made available by this website for Diamond Jubilee.

Meanwhile you are free to believe or not. That is of no concern to us. Everyone has to use its own intellect. Hazar Imam has warned about the post fact society.
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agakhani



Joined: 20 May 2015
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Everyone has to use its own intellect.


Off course!, and my intelligence and research shows that the translator of "KALAME MOWLA" in Hindi was not "PIR SHAMS" but it was translated by Aga Shamsuddin, who was related to SMS ( cousin! if I am not forgetting). The original Kalame Mowla was first composed first in Persian language by unknown author.

Now believe it or not its totally up to you.

BTW: I will wait for that scanned copy ( you do not have to hurry ) in which you found that the author was pir Shams! that information will be helpful to me to change my mistake if any.


Last edited by agakhani on Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total
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Admin



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
my intelligence and research shows that the author of "KALAME MOWLA" was not "PIR SHAMS" but it was composed by Aga Shamsuddin


You are entitled to your opinions, your intelligence and your research. No compulsion in Faith.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to share some information on translation of Kalam e Mowla.
Aitamadi Hashim Lalwani was a man of letters having vast knowledge of Islam, Ismailism and Hinduism. He wrote many books and published himself before partition as at that time there was no Ismailia Association. He was Mukhi of Hyderabad Sindh Jamait for long time and a missionary during 1920-1950. He passed away in early 50s. One of his famous book was HAQ MOUJUD. After his death his personal library containing old and obsolete books were donated to Ismailia Association Pakistan by his son waras Essa. Aitamadi Hashim asked his friend Muhamamd Siddiq Musafir(his pen name) of Tando Bago, who was well versed in Persian to translate Kalam e Mowla. The book was published by Aitamadi Saheb in 30/40's. This shows Aitamadi Hashim was in possession of Copy of Kalam e Mowla in Persian. Still copies of that translation should be available with many senior jamaiti members and Hyderabad Library/ITREB library Karachi. In that translation was mentioned of 5 times namaz and fasting. After partition, Ismailia Association published Urdu vertion still was carrying words 5 times namaz. In later additions the parts containing words namaz and roza were removed. Then in 1995 abridged edition chapter wise was published removing all shariati material by ITREB and these are the same chapters available on Heritage site published by ITREB Karachi.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We will make available half a dozen manuscripts of Kalame Mowla as part of our project to make available our entire collection.

Namaz-Bandgi is still part of what is recited today.

In fact we gave as a gift for Graduation in Prince Hussain's hand, in Williamstown, one beautiful original leather bound manuscript of Kalame Mowla.

It is only a matter of time. If there is any book on the subject or translations published or unpublished on this matter or any matter pertaining to the Ismaili faith, we are willing to make it available though this site.

Our site is not the only one. There is a renewed effort from even non-Ismaili scholars to bring forth our manuscripts and push for Ismaili studies by independent people.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
We will make available half a dozen manuscripts of Kalame Mowla as part of our project to make available our entire collection.

Namaz-Bandgi is still part of what is recited today.

In fact we gave as a gift for Graduation in Prince Hussain's hand, in Williamstown, one beautiful original leather bound manuscript of Kalame Mowla.

It is only a matter of time. If there is any book on the subject or translations published or unpublished on this matter or any matter pertaining to the Ismaili faith, we are willing to make it available though this site.

Our site is not the only one. There is a renewed effort from even non-Ismaili scholars to bring forth our manuscripts and push for Ismaili studies by independent people.



Out of curiosity, was that gift of Kalam e Mowla presented to Prince Hussain in Arabic or Persian or in some other language?
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Admin



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Out of curiosity, was that gift of Kalam e Mowla presented to Prince Hussain in Arabic or Persian or in some other language?


It was in Khojki Script Hindi language.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Out of curiosity, was that gift of Kalam e Mowla presented to Prince Hussain in Arabic or Persian or in some other language?


It was in Khojki Script Hindi language.



Do you have in your possession any Persian manuscript of Kalam e Mowla?
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Admin



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No I have not seen any Persian manuscript of Kalame Mowla.

We have a Persian and Hindi side by side in 2 columns in Khojki script Pir Pandiyat Jawanmardi.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am posting here first 10 stanzas from Kalam e Mowla;

AWWAL ZIKR ALLAH KA JO HAI RAHIM RAHMAN

DOYEM KALMA MUHAMMAD KA JO HAI DIN IMAN

SOYEM KALMA MOWLA KA JO YE KALAM SUNAYA HAI

YE KHAZANA JAWAHIR KA HAI SO ZAHIR KAR BATAYA HAI

ALLAH EEK JANO SIRJANHAR MUHAMMAD JANO ALLAH KA NABI

NABI JI KE PICHHEY SAHIB E IMAMAT SAACH KAR MANO MURTAZA ALI

ALLAH EEK MUHAMMAD HAI NABI MOWLA ALI HAI NABI JI KE THHAAM

ISS REET IMAN LAAOU KARO QABUL AEE HAI HUKAM E KALAM

SAACHA BOLO SAACHA CHALO KE MOMIN KA HAI SAACHA DIN

YE FARMAYA SHAH E AUOLIYA AAP MON RAKHO SAACHA YAQEEN
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Admin



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This lines below are not part of the original Kalame Mowla. These are recited as introduction before starting the recitation of Kalame Mowla.

AWWAL ZIKR ALLAH KA JO HAI RAHIM RAHMAN
DOYEM KALMA MUHAMMAD KA JO HAI DIN IMAN
SOYEM KALMA MOWLA KA JO YE KALAM SUNAYA HAI

None of the ancient manuscripts of kalame Mowla contain these lines above which may have been taken from some other Granth..

In fact the most ancient manuscript, which I have seen, starts with the following sentence:

Pir Shams Kahe Suno Bhai Momino, Mowla Ka Kalam Ka Bayan
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
This lines below are not part of the original Kalame Mowla. These are recited as introduction before starting the recitation of Kalame Mowla.

AWWAL ZIKR ALLAH KA JO HAI RAHIM RAHMAN
DOYEM KALMA MUHAMMAD KA JO HAI DIN IMAN
SOYEM KALMA MOWLA KA JO YE KALAM SUNAYA HAI

None of the ancient manuscripts of kalame Mowla contain these lines above which may have been taken from some other Granth..

In fact the most ancient manuscript, which I have seen, starts with the following sentence:

Pir Shams Kahe Suno Bhai Momino, Mowla Ka Kalam Ka Bayan



The Kalam e Mowla you posted on your Heritage site does not start with the line you mentioned ie, PIR SHAMS KAHEY BHAI MOMINO!!
Still the lines which I have mentioned are recited in Karachi/Hyderabad JKs.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like the ginan said, Varan Chatris and Sur Betalis Bhankia

I am sure you can complete the sentence icon_wink.gif
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19678

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Information

At the Literature Centres

Kalaam-e-Mawla – Wisdom of Hazrat ‘Ali

A new CD of selected verses of Kalaam-e-Mawla, recited with musical accompaniment, is available for purchase at the literature counter. The CD also includes a gist and translation of the recited verses.

Please click here to view more details.

http://iicanada.org/national/sun-2016-07-10-1859-al-akhbar#node10804
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kalaam-e-Mawla Playlist - Mohamed Virjee

Following this preamble, please allow Auto-Play on YouTube as several verses of the Kalaam are then recited. Many of you will recognise our Al-Waez (Rai Farouk Topan) being quoted several times in the preamble.

Enjoy.

Video:
Kalaam-e-Mawla - Preamble - Mohamed Virjee

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEXSsq0VjFA&list=PL8-KGtAvEpq7m1c6Q-gU93q4yzfY1J7wt&index=1
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have adopted these two paragraphs from an article written by Mr. Farouk Topan and posted on SIMERG.COM. These paragraphs confirm what I wrote in this thread on June 23, 2016.

From Simerg:
The Kalam-i Mawla (hence referred to as Kalam) is a poem of 327 verses, composed in Hindi, whose content draws inspiration from the sayings, speeches and sermons of Mawlana Ali(a.s.). "The actual COMPOSER of the verse is not known". Unlike the practice followed in some compositions, – for example, in the Ginans – where the composer mentions his name within the body of the text, the composer of Kalam has refrained from doing so. His action may have been dictated by modesty, or even piety, in not wishing his personal attribution to impinge upon the considered authorship of the first Imam. Thus the authoritative status of the verses, as expressing the Kalami (speech/sayings) of the Lord, Mawla, has been preserved.

II: The Doctrinal and Esoteric Dimensions in the Kalam-i Mawla

The first dimension may be termed doctrinal; its expression is interspersed throughout the poem as the basis for man’s action. Two examples may suffice for our purpose here. The opening verse of Kalam-i Mawla sets out a theological hierarchy. The first remembrance (Zikr), it says, is of Allah; the second profession (kalma) is of Muhammad (s.a.w) and the third is of the Mawla who narrates “his kalam, a treasure of jewels revealed to us.” Thus God, the Prophet and the Imam are mentioned from the beginning. In verse 5 the concepts of Tawhid, Nabuwwa and Imamah are expressed explicitly: “Know that Allah, the Sustainer is One; that Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah; after the Prophet (comes) the Lord of the Imamat, Murtaza Ali; believe in him with truth.”
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nuseri



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad.
I wish to know is Dr Topan an Ismaili? If not ,which sect from he is?
A person however qualified is NOT FULLY COMPTENT it explain many of marfati or baatin material.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:
Ya Ali Madad.
I wish to know is Dr Topan an Ismaili? If not ,which sect from he is?
A person however qualified is NOT FULLY COMPTENT it explain many of marfati or baatin material.


Of course Dr. Farouk Topan is an Ismaili. Received his Ph.D from university of London where he held position of senior lecturer until 2006. Currently he is the Director of Kiswahili center that is part of Aga Khan University East Africa.
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nuseri



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad:
Dr Topan looks like a Haqiqati in his view.
Firstly translating from Hindi language and explaining it in English.secondly the composer source is UNKNOWN.
Has any effort been made to find the original kalaam ,which should be in Arabic?
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:
Ya Ali Madad:
Dr Topan looks like a Haqiqati in his view.
Firstly translating from Hindi language and explaining it in English.secondly the composer source is UNKNOWN.
Has any effort been made to find the original kalaam ,which should be in Arabic?


Dr. Topan is a man of letters, he is Ph.D and fluent in English and knows Hindi means he is competent to explain in English.
Kalam e Mowla is a compilation from mostly Nahjul Balagah (sermons and sayings of Ali) which is originally in Arabic.
The text of Kalam e Mowla is not against Quran teachings.
Regarding composer, read this thread. It is either Pir Shams or Aga Shamsuddin as discussed, if you think some one else please research and know us the name.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

786-110
Subject: 14 pieces of advice of Imam Ali (as) for a leader

We tend to act as a leader from time to time in different capacity - as head of an organisation/institution, as a head of family, as an employer etc and with it carries a lot of responsibility, As lovers of Ahlul Bait (as)
we should be aware of them and I thought of sharing it with you.

1. As a leader, you are just a servant of God.

2. Know your audience.

3. We are all humans that make mistakes; be forgiving.

4. Remove negative people from your circle.

5. Remove the hatred.

6. Equality and justice are not the same thing.

7. If it isn’t broke, don’t try to fix it.

“Do not discontinue the good practices which the earlier people of this community had acted upon,​ ​by virtue of which there was general unity and through which the subjects prospered.”

8. Everyone is a small cog in a big machine.

“Know that the people consist of classes who prosper only with the help of one another, and they are not independent of one another.”

9. Always give people the credit they deserve.
“Appreciate the performance of every one of them,​ ​do not attribute the performance of one to the other,​ ​and do not minimise the reward below the level of the performance. The high position of a man should​ ​not lead you to regard his small deeds as big, nor​ ​should the low position of a man make you regard his big deeds as small.”

10. Never treat people favourably due to relationship with you.

“Give them appointment after tests and do not appoint them according to partiality or favouritism,​ ​because these two things constitute
sources of injustice and unfairness.”

11. Listen to constructive criticism.

“Fix a time for complainants wherein you make yourself free for them, and sit for them in common audience and feel humble therein for the sake of Allah who created you…”

12. Show your face

“Do not keep yourself secluded from the people for a long time, because the seclusion of those in authority from the subjects is a kind of narrow-sightedness and causes ignorance about their affairs.”

13. Communicate clearly.

“Do not enter into an agreement which may admit of different interpretations and do not change the interpretation of vague words after the conclusion and confirmation​.​ (of the agreement).”

14. Be organised

“Assign every matter its proper place and do every job at the appropriate time.”
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