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Kalame Mowla
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1117

PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: But who wrote the KALAME MOWLA? Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
Good to know all informations, very knowledgable, but my question remain the same, who wrote the "KALAME MOWLA" in Hindi (or whatever language you call, not the Urdu because Urdu was not exist that time) Pir Shams? or who? If pir Shams than he was born more than 900 years ago, my question is this: was Hindi language exist at Pir Sham's time 900 years ago? I think Sanskrit language had monopoly at that time since as per my study most Indian poems, scripture, history and ston inscriptions has been written in Sanskrit language.



Have you studied the ginans of pir shams?

Pir Nachi ne Kaathe Ginan Re ma?

Shams
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this your answer brother Shams? yes I read and listened this Garabi too many times the Garabi look like written in Gujarati language but my question was about existence of Hindi language during Pir Shams era and second question was who wrote the KALAME MOWLA in Hindi ? Which Pirs?
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TheMaw



Joined: 14 Feb 2009
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
Is this your answer brother Shams? yes I read and listened this Garabi too many times the Garabi look like written in Gujarati language but my question was about existence of Hindi language during Pir Shams era and second question was who wrote the KALAME MOWLA in Hindi ? Which Pirs?
Pir Sadradin was born about 700 AH. At that time, the ancestor of Hindi-Urdu was in its formative stages, having been formalised after the conquest of the Punjab about two centuries earlier and subsequent movement east with the conquest of Delhi in 693 AH.

Whatever was written in that time would not have been written down, but remembered. As it was written down later, so would it have been written in the most current form of the language.

I don't know who wrote the Kalam-e Mowla.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islam’s Great Striver: Hazrat Ali

http://simerg.com/literary-readings/islams-great-striver-hazrat-ali/
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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
Is this your answer brother Shams? yes I read and listened this Garabi too many times the Garabi look like written in Gujarati language but my question was about existence of Hindi language during Pir Shams era and second question was who wrote the KALAME MOWLA in Hindi ? Which Pirs?


I believe the Heritage Society has the oldest Manuscript available of kalame Mowla and in it the author is said to be Pir Shams. In fact the first words are "Pir Shams kahe suno Mowla ka Kalam ka bayan..."
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I believe the Heritage Society has the oldest Manuscript available of kalame Mowla and in it the author is said to be Pir Shams. In fact the first words are "Pir Shams kahe suno Mowla ka Kalam ka bayan..."


Thanks for information, it means that during the time of Pir Shams, Hindi language was existed along with Gujarati language, while Urdu language was started during the time of Mughal empires so it was not existed during time of Pir shams (s.a.)
One study show that Urdu language is not old more than 350 years, while Pir Shams was born around 900 years ago.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may have been that language has evolved...
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Urdu language has been made taking and adopting some words from different languages like Hindi, Persian, Arabic, Punjabi, Gujarati and many other Indians subcontinent languages which were existed during Moghul empires.
It was first started among Mughal Army to keep secret of their attack plans from the enemies, but it spread rapidly and became more and more popular so that Mughal empires and many Muslim accepted as their mother tongue.
Urdu language is 'KHICHADA LANGUAGE' of many languages but it is very sweet and philosophical language specially in ghazal, sher- Shayari and kavvalis. It became more famous in 'NAWABS" era for "GHAZAL and MUJARA" and giving respects to each others.
You probably heard a story 'PEHLE AAP, PEHLE AAP, NAHI PEHLE AAP between two Nawabs, who missed the train in giving respect to each other who enter first in train but doing this they both missed the train!!.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hindi and Urdu language was there during times of Pir Shams. Hindi is very old language. Urdu language was developed during Mughal time (but was originated before that) during the time of Delhi Sultanate. Though it became popular among masses much later.
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star_munir



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or otherwise it could have been translated by the devotees as W. Ivanow opined (just like in current times Farmans are translated in different languages).
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Urdu language was developed during Mughal time (but was originated before that)


Thnaks Munir for your inputs, I agree that Hindi language was there during the time of Pir shams but not the Urdu language, as a residence of Pakistan I think you should know better than us about the history of Urdu language, it is historically proven that Urdu language is not more than 350-400 years old so basically Urdu language was not exist during pir Shams.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

May be Pir Shams had composed the Ginan in Hindi language or otherwise it would have been translated later on by the devotees. However, I think Urdu language had started originating and evolving even before Pir Shams. This is because, if you will see historical background of Urdu, it emerged during Delhi Sultanate. When Ghori invaded India and formed permanent basis for the Muslim rule in Delhi, at that time Persian was the cultural and literary language of the rulers whereas Arabic was considered as religious language. However, in the royal courts, there were Turks, Arabs, Afghans, Local Indian (who spoke different languages including Brij Bhasha, Prakrit etc). Thus with the contact of so many people at one place (royal court) speaking different languages give rise to the new language which later came to be known as Urdu. However throughout the history, Urdu was called by different names such as Hindustani language, Dehalvi language etc
Urdu started originating that early..though it developed more in Mughal court and during later Mughal period it became very popular. Urdu evolved throughout the course of history and so was Hindi.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munir,
Good to know about more detail on history of Urdu language, I would still like to add few my own thoghts as well, first of all let me confess that Urdu is a very sweet language and it is a language of respects, it is a language of poetry and knowledge. Many valuable Islamic literature has been translated in Urdu language because Urdu and Persian language has same alphabets and many same words, Urdu language is a golden treasures for non- Arabic and non- persian readers as long as Islamic literature are concerned. I noticed that many Arabic literature also translated in Urdu language for example Ibn Hisham, Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari. Shibli Nomani and many Islamic scholars literatures are translated and available in Urdu but these translation is not made in other languages not even in English language yet.

Quote:
The language of the Muslims of Central and Southern Asia was Persian for the time between 1000 CE and 1700 CE. It was the language of the government, literature, and education. After the 1700’s, Urdu emerged as the dominating force replacing Persian gradually
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is at least one manuscript written in the 1800s' which claims that Pir Shams is the author of Kalame Mowla.


Quote:
Kalame Mowla is written by Pir Shams who has translated the sayings of Imam Ali,


I didn't agreed on above answers so I argued below:-

Code:
but my question remain the same, who wrote the "KALAME MOWLA" in Hindi (or whatever language you call, not the Urdu because Urdu was not exist that time) Pir Shams? or who? If pir Shams than he was born more than 900 years ago, my question is this: was Hindi language exist at Pir Sham's time 900 years ago? I think Sanskrit language had monopoly at that time since as per my study most Indian poems, scripture, history and ston inscriptions has been written in Sanskrit language.


Munir,

Thanks you rejuvenate this older post and believe me may be to find out the correct answer who wrote the Kalame Mowla? yesterday I just started to listen one old waez of Rai Dr. Abu Ali in my car, the detail is below:-

Waez # 173
Waez delivered date 9 August, 1987
Place: Elodea, Ontario
Title of Waez:- Dunia ghar Matamka.
Subject:- Kalame Mowla.

In this waez Rai saheb mentioned the history of Kalme Molwa, according him it was first composed some where after year 1800 by a grand son of Imam Hasan Ali Shah (s.a.) his name was Aga Shamsudiin ( not Pir Shams as wrote above) Aga Shamsuddin also wrote a famous Munajat 'ya ali Khub Mijalis Jinnat Karke Faras bichhayi Gali " also in Hindi language.
That prove that Pir Shams didn't composed "KALAME MOWLA" because that time Hindi language was not so popular but Aga Shamsuddin ( may be called pir Shams) composed 'Kalame Mowla' which is backing my arguments and questions above, please read my arguments in green coded color above.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for this information and reference icon_smile.gif This matter is now clarified

Some times because of similar names such errors occur. For example one of the scholar Tazim Kassam in her well known book "Songs of wisdom and circle of dances" has included ginan "Navroj na din sohamna" among the ginans of Pir Shams. May be the word "bhare syed Shamsi" would have led to presume it as ginan of Pir Shams. Actually that ginan was composed by Syed Fateh Ali (his name is also there in ginan) at the time of Imam Khalilullah.

One thing I would like to add Sanskrit was not having monopoly as religious language at the time of Pir Shams. That was time when bhakti movement was on its peak. The preachers of bhakti movement preferred using local languages like Punjabi, Bengali, Gujarati etc instead of Sanskrit. One of the preacher of bhakti movement was "Kabirdas" who was living during the time of Sikandar Lodhi (and his name also appears in Brahm Prakash). He had said "Sanskrit is like the water in a well. The language of people is like the flowing stream"
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
For example one of the scholar Tazim Kassam in her well known book "Songs of wisdom and circle of dances" has included ginan "Navroj na din sohamna" among the ginans of Pir Shams. May be the word "bhare syed Shamsi" would have led to presume it as ginan of Pir Shams. Actually that ginan was composed by Syed Fateh Ali (his name is also there in ginan) at the time of Imam Khalilullah.


Absolutely right, what a big mistakes the Tazim made!! same way lots of jamati members making mistakes between Indra Imamdin and Syed Imam Shah and your clarification below is right which is also backing with my one older post too please read our both post which are as follows:-

Quote:
In brief history of Ismailism, Abu Ali Missionary has written "Pir Imamudin (our 8th Pir) served served his father Imam Muhammad bin Ismail and brother Imam Wafi Ahmed. He died at the age of 51 in 202 A.H...........Pir Imamudin is mentioned as Pir Indra Imam din in popular list of Holy Pirs. Indra is an Indian title. The Pir never visited India. Some transcribers has made this mistake.


Now read my an older post for same clarification. which I wrote on August 13, 2011:-

Quote:
Sayed Imamshah was not our appointed pir but he was sadat, he was son of pir Hasan Kabirdin (s.a.), nephew of pir Tajdin, grand son of pir Sadardin and brother of BAI BUDHAI, he composed many ginans and his ginans are still reciting in jamat khana today.
He was thinking that after the death of his father pir Hasan Kabirdin (s.a.) he was strong candidate for the piratan but Imam give piratan to pir Tajdin, so he become little disappointed first but after the visit of Imam Islamshah (s.a.) He realized that the office of Pir (piratan) can only be bestowed by the Imam of the time (Imam-e-Zaman) after that realization he composed many valuable ginans, granths and shastra.
You will be surprise but many ginans of Syed Imam shah also have in possession of Imamshahi sect, I compared our ginans with their ginas but basically they are all same except few changes in words.
Pir Indra Imamdin was our 8Th pir appointed by Imam Wafi Ahmed but he never came in India and so that he never composed any ginan in Gujarati, Khojki, Urdu or any other Indo-Pak subcontinent spoken languages during his time.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes thats absolutely true.
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MR-FORGET



Joined: 28 Nov 2010
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, you say 'KALAM E MOWLA" is not composed by Pir Shahs (s.a.) ! but Aga Shamsuddin composed that, wasn't he cousin of Sultan Mohammad Shah (s.a.)?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are some profound sayings of Hazarat Ali in the book by late Alwaez Shamshu Bandali Haji: The Noor En Allah Noor which can be accessed at:

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/15495

The saying are on pages 160 - 162
http://ismaili.net/heritage/files/NoorEnAllahNoor81-176_0.pdf
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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:

Pir Indra Imamdin was our 8Th pir appointed by Imam Wafi Ahmed but he never came in India and so that he never composed any ginan in Gujarati, Khojki, Urdu or any other Indo-Pak subcontinent spoken languages during his time.


Let me clarify. TWO Pirs were known as Pir Indra Imamuddin, one is the son of Pir Noordin and the second is Seyyed Imam Shah. The ginans were written by Seyyed Imam Shah, sometimes called Pir Imamuddin (Pir by respect like some call Nassir Khusraw as "Pir" Nassir Khusraw", not a Satadhari Pir though his ginans have been recognised by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah..


Last edited by Admin on Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total
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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MR-FORGET wrote:
So, you say 'KALAM E MOWLA" is not composed by Pir Shahs (s.a.) ! but Aga Shamsuddin composed that, wasn't he cousin of Sultan Mohammad Shah (s.a.)?


Kalame Mowla was composed by Pir Shams and there are manuscripts of Kalame Mowla soon to be made available which are written when Aga Shamsudin was not yet born.

Perhaps Aga Shamsudin of which I do not know the history, was the one who divided the Kalame Mowla into chapters with a subject for each. The original work has the sames verses (minus the first 3 added later) but was in prose as a continuous text. Only recent manuscripts show the text divided into subject chapters. But as I said I do not know if Aga Shamsudin has any role in the modern version.
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agakhani



Joined: 20 May 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waez # 173
Waez delivered date 9 August, 1987
Place: Elodea, Ontario
Title of Waez:- Dunia ghar Matamka.
Subject:- Kalame Mowla.

In this waez Rai saheb mentioned the history of Kalme Molwa, according him it was first composed some where after year 1800 by a grand son of Imam Hasan Ali Shah (s.a.) his name was Aga Shamsudiin ( not Pir Shams as wrote above) Aga Shamsuddin also wrote a famous Munajat 'ya ali Khub Mijalis Jinnat Karke Faras bichhayi Gali " also in Hindi language.
That prove that Pir Shams didn't composed "KALAME MOWLA" because that time Hindi language was not so popular but Aga Shamsuddin ( may be called pir Shams) composed 'Kalame Mowla' which is backing my arguments and questions above, please read my arguments in green coded color above.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamsuddin died in 1901. He was not born when Kalame Mowla was written. As I said we have manuscripts which are old enough to confirm this.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please post it here so, I can make sure.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It will be part of tens of thousands of scans of Ismaili Khojki manuscripts to be made available by this website for Diamond Jubilee.

Meanwhile you are free to believe or not. That is of no concern to us. Everyone has to use its own intellect. Hazar Imam has warned about the post fact society.
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agakhani



Joined: 20 May 2015
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Everyone has to use its own intellect.


Off course!, and my intelligence and research shows that the translator of "KALAME MOWLA" in Hindi was not "PIR SHAMS" but it was translated by Aga Shamsuddin, who was related to SMS ( cousin! if I am not forgetting). The original Kalame Mowla was first composed first in Persian language by unknown author.

Now believe it or not its totally up to you.

BTW: I will wait for that scanned copy ( you do not have to hurry ) in which you found that the author was pir Shams! that information will be helpful to me to change my mistake if any.


Last edited by agakhani on Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total
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Admin



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
my intelligence and research shows that the author of "KALAME MOWLA" was not "PIR SHAMS" but it was composed by Aga Shamsuddin


You are entitled to your opinions, your intelligence and your research. No compulsion in Faith.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to share some information on translation of Kalam e Mowla.
Aitamadi Hashim Lalwani was a man of letters having vast knowledge of Islam, Ismailism and Hinduism. He wrote many books and published himself before partition as at that time there was no Ismailia Association. He was Mukhi of Hyderabad Sindh Jamait for long time and a missionary during 1920-1950. He passed away in early 50s. One of his famous book was HAQ MOUJUD. After his death his personal library containing old and obsolete books were donated to Ismailia Association Pakistan by his son waras Essa. Aitamadi Hashim asked his friend Muhamamd Siddiq Musafir(his pen name) of Tando Bago, who was well versed in Persian to translate Kalam e Mowla. The book was published by Aitamadi Saheb in 30/40's. This shows Aitamadi Hashim was in possession of Copy of Kalam e Mowla in Persian. Still copies of that translation should be available with many senior jamaiti members and Hyderabad Library/ITREB library Karachi. In that translation was mentioned of 5 times namaz and fasting. After partition, Ismailia Association published Urdu vertion still was carrying words 5 times namaz. In later additions the parts containing words namaz and roza were removed. Then in 1995 abridged edition chapter wise was published removing all shariati material by ITREB and these are the same chapters available on Heritage site published by ITREB Karachi.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We will make available half a dozen manuscripts of Kalame Mowla as part of our project to make available our entire collection.

Namaz-Bandgi is still part of what is recited today.

In fact we gave as a gift for Graduation in Prince Hussain's hand, in Williamstown, one beautiful original leather bound manuscript of Kalame Mowla.

It is only a matter of time. If there is any book on the subject or translations published or unpublished on this matter or any matter pertaining to the Ismaili faith, we are willing to make it available though this site.

Our site is not the only one. There is a renewed effort from even non-Ismaili scholars to bring forth our manuscripts and push for Ismaili studies by independent people.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
We will make available half a dozen manuscripts of Kalame Mowla as part of our project to make available our entire collection.

Namaz-Bandgi is still part of what is recited today.

In fact we gave as a gift for Graduation in Prince Hussain's hand, in Williamstown, one beautiful original leather bound manuscript of Kalame Mowla.

It is only a matter of time. If there is any book on the subject or translations published or unpublished on this matter or any matter pertaining to the Ismaili faith, we are willing to make it available though this site.

Our site is not the only one. There is a renewed effort from even non-Ismaili scholars to bring forth our manuscripts and push for Ismaili studies by independent people.



Out of curiosity, was that gift of Kalam e Mowla presented to Prince Hussain in Arabic or Persian or in some other language?
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