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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Marriages
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Marriages
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saadi



Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 10:16 am    Post subject: Marriages Reply with quote

Dear friends,

I'd like to know your opinion regarding the following issue:
"Do you believe it is okay for an Ismaili to marry a Non-Ismaili?"

It is not very common for Ismailis to marry outside the community yet what if one falls for a person outside the community? As I was going through some other forums, many of us are not even clear about how one converts to Ismailism, also if we are not ready to give up our faith then I think its not justified to expect it from the others. So in your opinion is it okay to marry outside the community (to a muslim of another sect), after all we are all Muslims, rite?

Let me present a situtation: "Is it okay for an Ismaili guy to marry a Sunni Girl?"
A: Yes I approve of it
B: It is okay only if the girl converts to Ismailism
C: It is okay only if the kids follow Ismailism in future
D: No it is absolutely unacceptable

Regards,
Saadi
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lakhania



Joined: 09 Apr 2003
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I approve of it... ( but then again I am not sure if I am right).... icon_question.gif


well since we have this topic... why limit it to just sunni or other sect.. why not a christian or hindu?
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saadi



Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 4:48 am    Post subject: more opinions plz Reply with quote

Hello friendz,

I haven't recieved many replies to my question about messages, plz send in yr opinions.

For Lakania,

U haven't mentioned in what circumstances do u approve of it, (A,B,C,D) PLease elaborate,

Regards,
Saadi
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:10 am    Post subject: nonismaili marriages Reply with quote

What you are asking is

Should a haqiqati marry a shariati?

If the haqiqati is a true Haqiqati then this question would not arise.

To be a Haqiqati Ismaili one has to follow the Farmans of Imame Mubeen.

Where in the Farmans has our Mowla asked us to marry sunni's.

Please understand that I have personally lived this Hell.

I was married to a christian girl for 10 years and ultimately she fell for another christian man which led to divorce. My son is Ismaili but due to strict court ordered custody arrangements sometimes he misses Mandali Majalises.

Imam Sultam Mohamedshah has made a Farman "Momin potana baccha ne bedin loko thi dur rakhe cche"

Which means that a Momin of Imam keeps his kids away from "bedin" people.

I have already made the mistake of having a child with a bedin woman. what do I do to rectify this. The laws of the land make it extremely unlikely for me to have exclusive custody of my son.

After that marriage I was living in a remote part of Texas where I could only come to Jamatkhana once a week when all my life I had gone to Jamatkhana every single day.

Can you Imagine the torture I subjected my soul to during that time period of almost 2 years.

Then there is the question of dasond. You have no idea how painful giving dasond is for non-ismailies.

They judge the Imam physically and cannot understand why we give dasond to such a wealthy "man".

One thing is for sure, it was the hardest lesson I have learned in my life.

Whatever happens try to learn your lesson as soon as possible and use the words of our beloved Imam to guide you and you will be absolutely safe.

wish you all the best

Ya Aly Madad

Shams
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saadi



Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Shamsu,

I am sorry to learn abt the hell u had to go through. It must have been really painful...

However I am inclined to ask how u made the decision in the first place? I mean did u two talk abt the religious difference? Did she agreed to convert???

U are right about none of the Farmans guiding us to marry sunnis but what I am asking is that if a situation arises. for e.g one falls for a person of another sect, is it okay to tie the knot. I mean in the Noorani family we see examples of marriages outside the circle of Islam??

Also kindly define Shariati??

Regards,
Saadi
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:48 pm    Post subject: outcast marriage Reply with quote

Shariati is someone who practices his faith with his physical body

tariqati with his mind

haqiqati with his heart where he has Mowla bapa at all times

What do you plan on doing if your wife refuses to convert?

most intercaste marriages end in divorce when the spouse doesn't convert to Ismailism.

In light of this fact what are your plans for after the divorce about children and such?

Prepare a prenuptial agreement for practice and your eyes will open wide.

People say Love is Blind but I am a living example of love being deaf and stupid too. Jamati Mukhisaheb asked me not to marry in Church but to keep my ex-wife happy I did nafarmani of my Mowla.

Pir says in Ginan "Ishk aql bhulaya" And I can swear to that being true.

NOORANI FAMILY:

It is ignorance that makes you compare yourself to Noorani Family. When ever people live and identify themselves with the physical body they misunderstand Ahl Al-Bayat.

First lets do shariat, then tariqat then haqiqat and then when we reach marifat we can talk about the family. Since talking without recognizing who we are talking about can lead to mistakes.

Let me tell you the thought that scared the life out of me. Once the denial was over I was afraid about what am I going to answer on the Day of Judgement for not listening to mukhi saheb and hurting the feelings of 100's of people.

Inspite of my foolishness more than 700 people came to the wedding including the Mukhisaheb whom I disobeyed. Every single friend advised me against this step which I took in "Love" but remember Pir says "Aash to ek alakh ni kijae Awar sarve aash niraash" and that is the purest truth we dont get into our thick skulls due to our ongoing enslavement to our desires and minds that have limited human intelligence. The pride caused from ignorance is what gets us every time. Everyone that came to my wedding had a heavy heart and knew I was making a grave mistake but I was oblivious to the obvious very much like you.

It is important to understand that things happen for a reason and the sooner we learn the lesson the better for each of us. What is the lesson-- look at the ginan kadi in the previous paragraph.
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saadi



Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 4:16 am    Post subject: ........... Reply with quote

So do you believe there is no difference at all, between a non-muslim and a muslim of another sect (non-ismaili muslim) ???

I am inclined to ask this because you make casual references to your marriage to the christian lady. Afterall, when we identify our religion, we claim to be muslims first and then if probed further, we may reveal to be Aga khanis. Now is that a latent identity??

Similarly I have spoken to representatives of sooo many sects. If we take a holistic view, are the differences really that big?

I mean literally the word Wahabi means someone who believes in the unity of Allah, Sunni means Someone who follows the Sunnat (life style and mannerism) of the Holy Prophet Mohammad (PBUH). and a Shia will be literally somebody who keeps Hazrat Ali as a friend. So is Iman really complete without these three beliefs??

Noorani Family:

I do understand the concept of marifat, but what I am confused about is whether the non-muslims who enter the Ahl Al-Bayat circle have reached marifat. Have they done shariat, then tariqat then haqiqat ???

Regards,
Saadi
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 8:37 pm    Post subject: I don't know what to say. Reply with quote

I think you will be guided best by the farmans of your Imam. Look up the Farmans on marriage and in Mowla bapa's interviews and speeches.

I started thinking what is the purpose of my life?

what is my goal in life?

why has Mowla sent me to this globe?

When u think of Important questions like these, your path becomes clear.

If you love a sunni girl then there is a lesson in that which u should not miss.

As far as Muslim the definition of that is someone who has already submitted to will of Allah.

How will you know what the will of Allah is today 7/21/2003.

The Imams farmans will tell you as stated in the second part of dua Obey Allah, his apostle and the authority holder of the AMR from amongst you.

I dont believe the common translation which translates amr into the word of the rulers over you.

Amr of Allah is the soul as per the Quran.

Ullil Amr - who is that at this moment?

When you answer that correctly you will know if non-muslim and non ismaili muslim is any different or not.
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AceofHearts



Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is marrying in church nafarmani? What does Hazar Imam say in his farmans?
And if we do fall in love with a non-Ismaili, which is not even that unlikely if you are living in a country with very few Ismaili's, isn't it better to marry in for instance church, if you cannot marry in Jamatkhana? At least then you are married in the eyes of God.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

regarding marrying person outside ambit of ismaili shias is altogether not correct but&nbsp;90% of such cases take place when some when falls in love with person of some other sect. Person who love other then ismaili , altough knows it it is not correct but cant help it b/c of lack of iman&nbsp;(and love is blind )so they think&nbsp;every thing will going to be f9 after marriage but in most of the cases its not true .to think to convert person after&nbsp;having marriage is not possibleif he/ she do accept it it will not accept it by its heart and soul .How can u say tht person ur converting have faith and iman o&shy;n hazar imam altough u dont have it , otherwise u&nbsp;havnt married with non ismaili.(problem of chidren, family non acceptance and many other things o&shy;ne has to consider b/f doing this)<BR><BR>concept of other muslim sects in this regard that u can marry&nbsp;" al-e Kitab" . followers having following those person which r followers of person o&shy;n which god has blessed his books tht exclude eg hindus&nbsp;
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear guest,

Found it a bit difficult to read and understand your reply. I now, however, understand why a wedding between an Ismaili and a non-Ismaili cannot take place in Jamatkhana. For the very simple reason that a non-Ismaili does not believe in Hazar Imam and therefore cannot marry in Jamatkhana.
As far as marrying in church, even though you might believe it wrong to marry non-Ismaili's and are convinced that such unions should not take place, they do take place. So, therefore is it better to marry in church or just sign a little paper at city hall?

YAM
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1665

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the views

Last edited by star_munir on Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Ismailism, marriage is a civil contract. Of course there are blessings given but it still remain a contract.

There is no religious requirement, therefore a marriage is allowed between an Ismaili and a non-ismaili.

This has been confirmed in the Memoirs of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah as well in several interview of Hazar Imam.
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nagib



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"There is another difference between us and the West that causes trouble. Take the case of marriage. You may be surprised that I mention this, but it is a problem. In our Faith, the element of Puritanism does not influence what a man can do in his private life. For a Muslim, a marriage is not a sacrament. It is a contract between two human beings, and although they will pray and seek the blessing of God, they are not pushed out of their Church if they separate. In Western society, from what I've been able to tell, living here the fact that divorce is a sin, against God, causes tremendous heartburning. With us, there is not so much worry, all the time, whether one's relationship with one's wife should be dominated by religious or personal feelings."

December 12, 1965
SUNDAY TIMES - WEEKLY REVIEW
THE RULER WITHOUT A KINGDOM :
http://ismaili.net/intervue/651212.html
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a quote on the same subject from the French interview "as is", no censured or interpreted words.

If you want to read an English translation, you'll find one at:

http://www.ismaili.net/Syria/interview/lbcmain.html
=======================================

LBC: Et c'est pour cela que vous avez deux mariages? Le mariage civil et le mariage religieux?

AK: Non, non, non. Ça c'est une forme mais en fait le mariage n'est pas un sacrement en Islam. C'est un rapport contractuel entre un homme et une femme.

LBC: Justement. Mais c'est parce que vous êtes en Europe que vous faites cela?

AK: Non, parce qu’il est devenu une tradition même dans les communautés musulmanes non ismailies qu’on demande la bénédiction sur le mariage etc.
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