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Pork/drinking/smoking???
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5915

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are many meaning to the word "religion". It may have the connotation of "Dharm" and as such, even not explicitly prohibited in religion, in my opinion, anything which goes against humanity, be it religious or not, is a sin. Call it by any word that pleases the majority.
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How does drinking a glass of wine or eating pork inflict harm on humanity or goes against it?

Admin wrote:
There are many meaning to the word "religion". It may have the connotation of "Dharm" and as such, even not explicitly prohibited in religion, in my opinion, anything which goes against humanity, be it religious or not, is a sin. Call it by any word that pleases the majority.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It does absolutely by weakening Humanity as a whole, I would say it is a crime against Humanity. You are part of Humanity. You body is acred, it is the residence of the soul during your life: keep it clean, A clean soul in a clean body!

Any person is welcome to disagree and eat as much pork and drink wine as one wants but it will be at his own detriment. I would certainly not waste too much time convincing on the matter, I think either people gets it [to their own benefit] or they don't...
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is less crime in the countries that eat pork and drink alcohol. They are healthier, work harder, are more intellectual and have more tolerance for others. The whole world is trying to be like them, even us Ismailis. I don't see them committing a crime against humanity. I see them showing the way to humanity to have a free and open society where open thought, excellence and human rights are held to the highest esteem.

It is because of your religious beliefs that you think as such. If you put aside your religious beliefs for a second, there is no correlation that countries with high pork and alcohol consumption are animal-like. Instead, it is shown to be the opposite.

Even sex is an animal instinct, then isn't sex a crime against humanity as well. Should we all then practice celibacy?


Admin wrote:
It does absolutely by weakening Humanity as a whole, I would say it is a crime against Humanity. You are part of Humanity. You body is acred, it is the residence of the soul during your life: keep it clean, A clean soul in a clean body!

Any person is welcome to disagree and eat as much pork and drink wine as one wants but it will be at his own detriment. I would certainly not waste too much time convincing on the matter, I think either people gets it [to their own benefit] or they don't...
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sheri wrote:
There is less crime in the countries that eat pork and drink alcohol. They are healthier, work harder, are more intellectual and have more tolerance for others. The whole world is trying to be like them, even us Ismailis. I don't see them committing a crime against humanity. I see them showing the way to humanity to have a free and open society where open thought, excellence and human rights are held to the highest esteem.

It is because of your religious beliefs that you think as such. If you put aside your religious beliefs for a second, there is no correlation that countries with high pork and alcohol consumption are animal-like. Instead, it is shown to be the opposite.

Even sex is an animal instinct, then isn't sex a crime against humanity as well. Should we all then practice celibacy?


Admin wrote:
It does absolutely by weakening Humanity as a whole, I would say it is a crime against Humanity. You are part of Humanity. You body is acred, it is the residence of the soul during your life: keep it clean, A clean soul in a clean body!

Any person is welcome to disagree and eat as much pork and drink wine as one wants but it will be at his own detriment. I would certainly not waste too much time convincing on the matter, I think either people gets it [to their own benefit] or they don't...


So are you implying that due to pork eating and drinking, the crime is low in those parts of the world, and people are more intellectual and work hard? I don't think that would be a logical conclusion.

According to Muslim beliefs pork is prohibited and so is drinking alchohol. The reason is already given by Admin, if you wish to accept it. But nevertheless, everyone has their option whether to eat pork or drink alchohole. It's a personal choice you make, like any other choice. It all boil downs on your values and beliefs.
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have not implied anything as such. I have provided an example to refute the premise that eating pork / drinking alcohol results in criminal and animal behavior.

If the IMAM has specifically said that it is "not a religious prohibition." Who are we to conclude otherwise?

1400 years ago alcohol was abused, as men would rape women, bury their daughters and do other barbaric acts. Human farming techniques were not advanced enough to maintain hygiene in pig pens.

Today, humans have evolved intellectually to build civil societies where law and order is maintained. People under the influence of alcohol don't commit any such crimes. Technology has enabled Pig farming in a more hygiene environment.

Times have changed and so should our thought process. If the IMAM has clearly mitigated that prohibition as I have quoted above, then who are we to question it.

Smoking was never prohibited in Islam. However, IMAM discourages smoking because it is bad for health. It is not a sin - it is discouraged due to health reasons.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alcohol is abused as much today as it was in those time. I am not sure where you get your information
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are just throwing blanket statements. Can you justify your information with facts. Here is a fact:

93% of Adult Canadians drink alcohol. That is about 25 million adults out of 35 million population (including children).

There were only 400k violent crimes committed in Canada.

Most people drink every weekend for leisure. If 25 million people are drinking every weekend (frequency is higher than this), then in a year there are more than 2 billion drunk people. Now let's assume that all the crimes are under the influence of alcohol (highly exaggerated). It results to 0.02%, this is negligible.

Now, you can keep on passing blanket statements on the basis of religion, but providing facts as I have been doing would be more convincing.


Admin wrote:
Alcohol is abused as much today as it was in those time. I am not sure where you get your information
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a_27826



Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 321
Location: Da es salaam

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sheri wrote:
You are just throwing blanket statements. Can you justify your information with facts. Here is a fact:

93% of Adult Canadians drink alcohol. That is about 25 million adults out of 35 million population (including children).

There were only 400k violent crimes committed in Canada.

Most people drink every weekend for leisure. If 25 million people are drinking every weekend (frequency is higher than this), then in a year there are more than 2 billion drunk people. Now let's assume that all the crimes are under the influence of alcohol (highly exaggerated). It results to 0.02%, this is negligible.

Now, you can keep on passing blanket statements on the basis of religion, but providing facts as I have been doing would be more convincing.


Admin wrote:
Alcohol is abused as much today as it was in those time. I am not sure where you get your information


The fact is Quran rules against eating pork.

So no matter how hygienic pig is, you cant have it unless you want to ignore Quran.
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Quran also prescribes Fasting, and Hajj. I don't think the IMAM has orated any farman restricting Ismailis from fasting, hajj and umrah.

Fasting: 2:183 - 2:187
Hajj: 2:196

Please don't respond by saying that Ismailis have a 365 days fast and deedar of IMAM is the hajj.

You can't pick and choose the things you like and dislike from the Quran. Doing that undermines the validity of the Quran.


a_27826 wrote:
sheri wrote:
You are just throwing blanket statements. Can you justify your information with facts. Here is a fact:

93% of Adult Canadians drink alcohol. That is about 25 million adults out of 35 million population (including children).

There were only 400k violent crimes committed in Canada.

Most people drink every weekend for leisure. If 25 million people are drinking every weekend (frequency is higher than this), then in a year there are more than 2 billion drunk people. Now let's assume that all the crimes are under the influence of alcohol (highly exaggerated). It results to 0.02%, this is negligible.

Now, you can keep on passing blanket statements on the basis of religion, but providing facts as I have been doing would be more convincing.


Admin wrote:
Alcohol is abused as much today as it was in those time. I am not sure where you get your information


The fact is Quran rules against eating pork.

So no matter how hygienic pig is, you cant have it unless you want to ignore Quran.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sheri wrote:
The Quran also prescribes Fasting, and Hajj. I don't think the IMAM has orated any farman restricting Ismailis from fasting, hajj and umrah.

Fasting: 2:183 - 2:187
Hajj: 2:196

Please don't respond by saying that Ismailis have a 365 days fast and deedar of IMAM is the hajj.

You can't pick and choose the things you like and dislike from the Quran. Doing that undermines the validity of the Quran.


a_27826 wrote:
sheri wrote:
You are just throwing blanket statements. Can you justify your information with facts. Here is a fact:

93% of Adult Canadians drink alcohol. That is about 25 million adults out of 35 million population (including children).

There were only 400k violent crimes committed in Canada.

Most people drink every weekend for leisure. If 25 million people are drinking every weekend (frequency is higher than this), then in a year there are more than 2 billion drunk people. Now let's assume that all the crimes are under the influence of alcohol (highly exaggerated). It results to 0.02%, this is negligible.

Now, you can keep on passing blanket statements on the basis of religion, but providing facts as I have been doing would be more convincing.


Admin wrote:
Alcohol is abused as much today as it was in those time. I am not sure where you get your information


The fact is Quran rules against eating pork.

So no matter how hygienic pig is, you cant have it unless you want to ignore Quran.


I have mentioned this before but I wanna reiterate once more.

The Qur'an is the book of symbolism and mysticism and all signs. It requires the Tahweel. The exoteric (tanzil) of the Qur'an was revealed by the Prophet and the Tahweel (esoteric exegises) is done by the Imam of the time.

Hajj, Namaz, and other sharia elements are exoteric gestures signifying greater esoteric meaning and purpose. We Ismailie have always try to find and understand the esoteric meaning. There are a lot of ismailie I know even from my own region that they take the convenient Avenue by saying I do the esoteric way.
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the methods prescribed in the Quran are conflicting with the Ismaili tariqah we take the stance that we are esoteric.

Help me understand what is the esoteric rational for limiting pork consumption?
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zznoor



Joined: 06 Dec 2009
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Qur'an is the book of symbolism and mysticism and all signs. It requires the Tahweel. The exoteric (tanzil) of the Qur'an was revealed by the Prophet and the Tahweel (esoteric exegises) is done by the Imam of the time.


Taweel is only known to MHI and Dais of various Tariqas of Ismailism (as claimed by them or their Murids).
Why in Gods name they do not reveal it. MHI has 50 years to do it. Imam SMS RhA had similar time to do it. By this time we would have volumes of authentic Taweel.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zznoor wrote:
Quote:
The Qur'an is the book of symbolism and mysticism and all signs. It requires the Tahweel. The exoteric (tanzil) of the Qur'an was revealed by the Prophet and the Tahweel (esoteric exegises) is done by the Imam of the time.


Taweel is only known to MHI and Dais of various Tariqas of Ismailism (as claimed by them or their Murids).
Why in Gods name they do not reveal it. MHI has 50 years to do it. Imam SMS RhA had similar time to do it. By this time we would have volumes of authentic Taweel.


They are revealing it! It requires one's inner eyes not to be blind!

Look around today, and you'll find MHI (The Aga Khan's) signature every where around the world! If one only would understand, it would be easy! The Tahweel is not like the story of a movie, so I can tell you the plot and you understand it all together at once. To get to mahrifa and then wahdat, it's a journey of self realization, and if you aren't ready you won't benefit from it!
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a_27826



Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 321
Location: Da es salaam

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sheri wrote:
The Quran also prescribes Fasting, and Hajj. I don't think the IMAM has orated any farman restricting Ismailis from fasting, hajj and umrah.

Fasting: 2:183 - 2:187
Hajj: 2:196

Please don't respond by saying that Ismailis have a 365 days fast and deedar of IMAM is the hajj.

You can't pick and choose the things you like and dislike from the Quran. Doing that undermines the validity of the Quran.


icon_smile.gif

Ismailis are not denying instruction in the Quran to Fast and Hajj, they just claim to do it differently or esoterically, hence they are not ignoring the instructions in the Quran.

On other hand, you want to ignore the instruction of prohibition of consumption of pork in the Quran, hence ignoring Quran

so there is a difference in the analogies of "DO" and "DON'T DO" you provided.
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And so help me understand why do you have to keep beej. Why is beej a physical fast for the day, similar to the muslim ramadan fast. But when the fast of ramadan is in question, we ismaili claim that it is an esoteric fast.

Why don't we have an esoteric beej?


a_27826 wrote:
sheri wrote:
The Quran also prescribes Fasting, and Hajj. I don't think the IMAM has orated any farman restricting Ismailis from fasting, hajj and umrah.

Fasting: 2:183 - 2:187
Hajj: 2:196

Please don't respond by saying that Ismailis have a 365 days fast and deedar of IMAM is the hajj.

You can't pick and choose the things you like and dislike from the Quran. Doing that undermines the validity of the Quran.


icon_smile.gif

Ismailis are not denying instruction in the Quran to Fast and Hajj, they just claim to do it differently or esoterically, hence they are not ignoring the instructions in the Quran.

On other hand, you want to ignore the instruction of prohibition of consumption of pork in the Quran, hence ignoring Quran

so there is a difference in the analogies of "DO" and "DON'T DO" you provided.
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How does signing documents with universities, hospitals etc relate to the revelation of mysteries.

Also, help me understand what Tawil recently revealed by the IMAM that is different from the Tawil revealed 1400 years ago.


tret wrote:
zznoor wrote:
Quote:
The Qur'an is the book of symbolism and mysticism and all signs. It requires the Tahweel. The exoteric (tanzil) of the Qur'an was revealed by the Prophet and the Tahweel (esoteric exegises) is done by the Imam of the time.


Taweel is only known to MHI and Dais of various Tariqas of Ismailism (as claimed by them or their Murids).
Why in Gods name they do not reveal it. MHI has 50 years to do it. Imam SMS RhA had similar time to do it. By this time we would have volumes of authentic Taweel.


They are revealing it! It requires one's inner eyes not to be blind!

Look around today, and you'll find MHI (The Aga Khan's) signature every where around the world! If one only would understand, it would be easy! The Tahweel is not like the story of a movie, so I can tell you the plot and you understand it all together at once. To get to mahrifa and then wahdat, it's a journey of self realization, and if you aren't ready you won't benefit from it!
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zznoor



Joined: 06 Dec 2009
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Look around today, and you'll find MHI (The Aga Khan's) signature every where around the world! If one only would understand, it would be easy! The Tahweel is not like the story of a movie, so I can tell you the plot and you understand it all together at once. To get to mahrifa and then wahdat, it's a journey of self realization, and if you aren't ready you won't benefit from it!


I am looking at my beautiful backyard. I do not see MHI's signature.
Please do not throw fancy words like inner understing, plot, mahrifa and wahdat.

You claim that Quran has Zahir and Taweel meaning. All I want to get is Taweel of one Aya. Say Q2:3. I have posted Zahiri meaning by Pickthal

Q2:3
Allatheena yuminoona bialghaybi wayuqeemoona alssalata wamimma razaqnahum yunfiqoona
[Pickthal 2:3] Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them;

Let's see what you say
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why we Muslims doesn't eat Pork?

Here is my answer, which I bet many readers may not know:-

There are too many scientific and health related reasons which stop us not to eat pork, that is just fine but today I will tell you one religious reason which I think you may not know until today:-

During the time of sexual intercourse with any female pig "many" male pigs gathered together and circled the female pig and they all sexually intercourse with same female pig one after another!!, which is totally against Islamic principal and it is called 'ZINA' in Islam.
Now eating meat of such hatred animal may be her bad sexual nature and habit enter in our bodies too, and you can see that how sex is become out of control in U.S.A and other European countries! therefore pork is prohibited in Islam,
'Zina' consider big sin in Islam.

congratulations, if you knew this reason before.

Interesting video clips.
please click the link below for more detail and more scientific reasons.
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=239&highlight=pork
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are always two sides to the coin. For people who want to spread hate will publish such things to prove their point and further fuel disgust against others. Here are a few to prove how mating is performed. Also, an article that talks about the advantages of eating Pig meat. You can point fingers at others or you can choose to accept their differences and stop spreading hatred. The choice is yours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV1Zs8SNMa0

http://www.simple-remedies.com/health-food/benefits-of-eating-pork.html


agakhani wrote:
Why we Muslims doesn't eat Pork?

Here is my answer, which I bet many readers may not know:-

There are too many scientific and health related reasons which stop us not to eat pork, that is just fine but today I will tell you one religious reason which I think you may not know until today:-

During the time of sexual intercourse with any female pig "many" male pigs gathered together and circled the female pig and they all sexually intercourse with same female pig one after another!!, which is totally against Islamic principal and it is called 'ZINA' in Islam.
Now eating meat of such hatred animal may be her bad sexual nature and habit enter in our bodies too, and you can see that how sex is become out of control in U.S.A and other European countries! therefore pork is prohibited in Islam,
'Zina' consider big sin in Islam.

congratulations, if you knew this reason before.

Interesting video clips.
please click the link below for more detail and more scientific reasons.
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=239&highlight=pork
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are not you Tret?
Your above aligation and thinking is not true, why do not you go any pig farm and see your own eyes a live proof rather then man made YouTube videos? Which are most of time not real. I can make any kind video the way you want for YouTube!
By the way you are most welcome to ask my little piglet (ZZNoor) for any nearby pig farms. because she lives over there.

There is a idiom in many languages with different words: Haiye tevu hothe, inshan jaisa karta hai waisa hi sochta hai! Aour Bolta hai!

Means you are taking alcohol and also eat pork (khalajan) or biradar if you are a Tret....
I do not understand that why I have feelings that you are a Tret!!!, very interesting huh... icon_lol.gif
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sheri wrote:
There are always two sides to the coin. For people who want to spread hate will publish such things to prove their point and further fuel disgust against others. Here are a few to prove how mating is performed. Also, an article that talks about the advantages of eating Pig meat. You can point fingers at others or you can choose to accept their differences and stop spreading hatred. The choice is yours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV1Zs8SNMa0

http://www.simple-remedies.com/health-food/benefits-of-eating-pork.html


agakhani wrote:
Why we Muslims doesn't eat Pork?

Here is my answer, which I bet many readers may not know:-

There are too many scientific and health related reasons which stop us not to eat pork, that is just fine but today I will tell you one religious reason which I think you may not know until today:-

During the time of sexual intercourse with any female pig "many" male pigs gathered together and circled the female pig and they all sexually intercourse with same female pig one after another!!, which is totally against Islamic principal and it is called 'ZINA' in Islam.
Now eating meat of such hatred animal may be her bad sexual nature and habit enter in our bodies too, and you can see that how sex is become out of control in U.S.A and other European countries! therefore pork is prohibited in Islam,
'Zina' consider big sin in Islam.

congratulations, if you knew this reason before.

Interesting video clips.
please click the link below for more detail and more scientific reasons.
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=239&highlight=pork


I believe Prohibition of pork is mentioned in the Qur'an! So, any Muslim obeys what's in the Qur'an.

If one chooses to eat pork, no one can impose not to do so. Islam is not about compulsion!

If you like to consume pork, you are all free to do so; but I don't think it's correct to have it accepted at a religion level.

You ask about the reason why it's prohibited, I don't know the reason, but if it's mentioned in the Qur'an, there must be a good reason, and that'd be enough for a muslim!
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And what about the other things in the Quran that are prescribed to be followed - like Fasting and Hajj?

We are moving to the same argument for which I am still waiting for answers that none of you have been able to rationally provide.

tret wrote:
sheri wrote:
There are always two sides to the coin. For people who want to spread hate will publish such things to prove their point and further fuel disgust against others. Here are a few to prove how mating is performed. Also, an article that talks about the advantages of eating Pig meat. You can point fingers at others or you can choose to accept their differences and stop spreading hatred. The choice is yours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV1Zs8SNMa0

http://www.simple-remedies.com/health-food/benefits-of-eating-pork.html


agakhani wrote:
Why we Muslims doesn't eat Pork?

Here is my answer, which I bet many readers may not know:-

There are too many scientific and health related reasons which stop us not to eat pork, that is just fine but today I will tell you one religious reason which I think you may not know until today:-

During the time of sexual intercourse with any female pig "many" male pigs gathered together and circled the female pig and they all sexually intercourse with same female pig one after another!!, which is totally against Islamic principal and it is called 'ZINA' in Islam.
Now eating meat of such hatred animal may be her bad sexual nature and habit enter in our bodies too, and you can see that how sex is become out of control in U.S.A and other European countries! therefore pork is prohibited in Islam,
'Zina' consider big sin in Islam.

congratulations, if you knew this reason before.

Interesting video clips.
please click the link below for more detail and more scientific reasons.
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=239&highlight=pork


I believe Prohibition of pork is mentioned in the Qur'an! So, any Muslim obeys what's in the Qur'an.

If one chooses to eat pork, no one can impose not to do so. Islam is not about compulsion!

If you like to consume pork, you are all free to do so; but I don't think it's correct to have it accepted at a religion level.

You ask about the reason why it's prohibited, I don't know the reason, but if it's mentioned in the Qur'an, there must be a good reason, and that'd be enough for a muslim!
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a_27826



Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 321
Location: Da es salaam

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sheri wrote:
And what about the other things in the Quran that are prescribed to be followed - like Fasting and Hajj?

We are moving to the same argument for which I am still waiting for answers that none of you have been able to rationally provide.


Fasting has been prescribed for us (002:183)

Reason: to achieve taqwa

Now if you don't fast because you think its hard to fast, then may God forgive you.

But if you don't fast because you think its no longer necessary, then you have ignored Quran.





flesh of swine is forbidden (002:173)

no reason is given.

If you are eating out of necessity, then may God forgive you.

But if you are eating because its now safe and hygienic, then you have ignored Quran.

The reason for forbidding flesh of swine is based on Deuteronomy 14:08

And the swine, because it divides the hoof, yet chews not the cud, it is unclean to you: you shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass.


Alcohol is forbidden (Imam of the Time, Sunday Times interview 12 Dec. 1965)

reason: it impedes the power of thought


Alcohol is forbidden (005:090-091)

reason: it turns you away from "dhikr" and "prayer"
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are beating around the bush. Please tell us why it is not hard for you to keep the physical beej, but hard to fast for Ramadan.

So ignoring the pillar of Islam has no consequences, but by eating pork allah will give you the hell-fire.

On alcohol, you should read the whole statement made by MHI:
"Our belief is that the thing which separates man from the animals is his power of thought. Anything that impedes this process is wrong. Therefore alcohol is forbidden. I have never touched alcohol. But this, to me, is not a puritan prohibition. I Don't want to drink. I've never wanted to drink. There's no pressure being placed on me by my religion."

Note: "This to me is not a puritan prohibition" which means "this to me is not a religious prohibition." "There's no pressure being placed on me by my religion."
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zznoor



Joined: 06 Dec 2009
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sheri
And what about the other things in the Quran that are prescribed to be followed - like Fasting and Hajj?



Quote:
a-27826
Fasting has been prescribed for us (002:183)

Reason: to achieve taqwa

Now if you don't fast because you think its hard to fast, then may God forgive you.

But if you don't fast because you think its no longer necessary, then you have ignored Quran.


So why fast on Beej and not in Ramadan?
Why one Hajj but one will cross continents for Deedar?
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zznoor



Joined: 06 Dec 2009
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
a_27826
Ismailis are not denying instruction in the Quran to Fast and Hajj, they just claim to do it differently or esoterically, hence they are not ignoring the instructions in the Quran.


how do you fast in Ramadan esoterically?
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a_27826



Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 321
Location: Da es salaam

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zznoor wrote:
Quote:
a_27826
Ismailis are not denying instruction in the Quran to Fast and Hajj, they just claim to do it differently or esoterically, hence they are not ignoring the instructions in the Quran.


how do you fast in Ramadan esoterically?


i dont know. you have ask Ismailis who do so.

The point i was making to Sheri was, when one doesn't follow prohibition, he is either a bad believer or a non believer.

For example, one knowledges that he has to abstain from alcohol but still do consume it because he likes it, then he is a bad believer.

But the one who rejects or denies the prohibition for whatever reasons, then he is a non believer.

I guess I couldn't or cant express my point.
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zznoor



Joined: 06 Dec 2009
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
i dont know. you have ask Ismailis who do so.


icon_biggrin.gif icon_biggrin.gif
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I don't even know. I have heard about this interpretation being passed around, but see how anyone can put holes in such a basic tradition such as Beej and Ramadan.

These holes will remain if we use our own interpretations. However, when the IMAM gives his interpretation, that is taken as absolute and the chapter closes.
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