www.ismaili.net

slam all of you

i am a sunni pakistani who live in norway, i use to hang around different forums to learn about the different sects and groups within islam, i have been wery much into the ithna ashari site and learnet alot about theyr aqeeda/school of law.
so i thought it is time to learn about the second big shia group too, the ismailia.

so my questions will be many, and i would like to discuss them further on. but please if something shows up to be disrespectful of you take offended by it then please forgive me

so heres the questions

1.does anyone have the complete list of imams from hazrat adam (as) until present?

2.does the ismailis believe in the imamate of hazrat hassan ibn ali (ra) ?

3.how does ismailis look upon sunnis, how are they regarded...

4.where would you place ismailis? closer to sunnis or ithna ashari? and/or closer to zaydis or ithna ashari?

5.do ismailis use tabarra? (to curse the "enemies of the ahle bayt"?)

6.how much divine and which status does the hazar imam have? and is the number 7 special in the imami line?

7.how does the ismailis look on the imami line from musa kazim ibn jaafar saadiq and further to mahdi ? (the ithna ashari line)?

i will come up with more, so please i will be waiting for answers
and btw, i need help if someone is a medical student in pakistan then please tell, i want to do recearch there and i would need some stuff to so that.

Morg wrote: 1.does anyone have the complete list of imams from hazrat adam (as) until present?

It is given in this forum under:

Doctrines -> Imam

Morg wrote: 2.does the ismailis believe in the imamate of hazrat hassan ibn ali (ra) ?

In Ismaili tradition there are two kinds of Imams; the actual Imam (Imam Mustaqarr and the entrusted Imam (Imam Mustawda). Imam Hassan was the latter.

Morg wrote: 3.how does ismailis look upon sunnis, how are they regarded... ?

We consider them as our brother Muslims with a different interpretation of faith. We respect their interpretation and bear no ill will towards them.

Morg wrote: 4.where would you place ismailis? closer to sunnis or ithna ashari? and/or closer to zaydis or ithna ashari??

Ismailis would be closer to the Shai's because of their common interpretation of Hazarat Ali being the inheritor of the Prophet.

Morg wrote: 5.do ismailis use tabarra? (to curse the "enemies of the ahle bayt"?)?

We are generally tolerant of all interpretations and hence no need to curse anyone.

Morg wrote: 6.how much divine and which status does the hazar imam have? and is the number 7 special in the imami line?

The Imam is the bearer of the Noor of Allah and hence is divinely desgnated and is confined to only one lineage. Historically number 7 has had a great deal of signifinace to it.

Morg wrote: 7.how does the ismailis look on the imami line from musa kazim ibn jaafar saadiq and further to mahdi ? (the ithna ashari line)?

We consider them as imposters at best.

i

In Ismaili tradition there are two kinds of Imams; the actual Imam (Imam Mustaqarr and the entrusted Imam (Imam Mustawda). Imam Hassan was the latter.

so hazrat hussain (ra) inherited the imamate from hazrat ali (ra)? as the imam mustaqarr, while at the same time imam hassan (ra) was the imam mustawda? is there a different line of succeors which includes only the imams who are called imam mustawda, and what does that actually mean?

We consider them as our brother Muslims with a different interpretation of faith. We respect their interpretation and bear no ill will towards them.

recetly i read in some news that the ismaili dosctrine can change whenever a hazar imam wants it, and the article said that the ismaili imam karim agha khan were driving the nizari ismaili closer to the sunni fiqh and to mainstream islam.. is that true?

Ismailis would be closer to the Shai's because of their common interpretation of Hazarat Ali being the inheritor of the Prophet.

would you call ismailis closer to shia jaafri ithna asharis or shia zaydis? telogically?

We are generally tolerant of all interpretations and hence no need to curse anyone.

...although you share the common hadiths and the thought on some sahabas?

The Imam is the bearer of the Noor of Allah and hence is divinely desgnated and is confined to only one lineage. Historically number 7 has had a great deal of signifinace to it.

can you tell more about the carrier of the noor of allah swt, and the significanse of the number 7?


more questions

8. how does ismailis look upon the bohras, druzes and the alevis.

9. can anyone tell of ismaili states and when they were established who ruled them and when they ended. for exmaple the fatimids, qarmatians...

10. is there any ranking in the ismaili community? does the syeds have higher status and is there any structure which is religious? for example the hazar imam, the naib imam the dai and so on ... ?

and btw

the answer to question nr one.
where could i find it? couse i dont see any topic named imam under section doctrines

another thing i wanted to ask about
do anyone have information about siblings (brothers) of the different imams? i am working on a big family tree which includes important prophets and leaders of different sects from the time of adam (As) until present. so i would need the names of the siblings and the sons of the imams of ismailia firqa. thanx

Morg wrote:so hazrat hussain (ra) inherited the imamate from hazrat ali (ra)? as the imam mustaqarr, while at the same time imam hassan (ra) was the imam mustawda? is there a different line of succeors which includes only the imams who are called imam mustawda, and what does that actually mean?.

At all times in our tradition we have the dual offices of the Imam Mustaqarr and Imam Mustawda. The office of Imam Mustaqarr is a heriditory one which runs in one exalted family. The Imam Mustawda is appointed by the current Imam to the office and it is not heriditory. The Imam could appoint anyone from the Ahl al-Bayt (progeny of the Prophet) to the office including himself. At present the Imam holds both positions. The Imam Mustawda is also referred to as the Pir.

There have been extensive discussions on these dual positions in this forum.At the top of this page you have a search option. Click on it and then type in the word 'Mustawda' or 'Pir' and you will get all topics that have their reference.

Morg wrote: recetly i read in some news that the ismaili dosctrine can change whenever a hazar imam wants it, and the article said that the ismaili imam karim agha khan were driving the nizari ismaili closer to the sunni fiqh and to mainstream islam.. is that true?

Yes it is the absolute prerogative of the Imam to change the doctrines anytime he wants to suite the intellectual climate of the time. He is not driving ismailis towards the Sunni interpretation, rather he is building bridges with other tariqahs. This means that he is articulating our faith in a manner which is understandable by others without compromising our fundamentals.

Morg wrote: would you call ismailis closer to shia jaafri ithna asharis or shia zaydis? telogically?.

It has been a long time since historical differences of the interpretation of faith have crystallized into separate sects and therefore it would be safe to say that we cannot really differentiate tariqahs in terms of their affinity to us. The fact is that we are different from others due to our belief in the living Imam. I would say that all Shias would be equal to us because of the belief of Hazarat Ali being the successor of the Prophet.

I would rather focus on what we have in common than the differences between us.

Morg wrote: ...although you share the common hadiths and the thought on some sahabas?

Hadiths do not carry a great deal of importance as the Farmans of the present Imam. We do not share hadiths that are antagonistic towards others.

Morg wrote: can you tell more about the carrier of the noor of allah swt, and the significanse of the number 7?

There is a useful introduction on the 'Nur Muhammadi" in Cyril Glasse's The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam as under.

Nur Muhammadi: "Muhammadan Light" or "Light of Muhammad"; a reduction of the Arabic form 'an-Nur al-Muhammadiyyah'. The essence of the Prophet, also called al-haqiqah al-Muhammadiyyah ("Muhammadan Reality" or "the Realitv that is Muhammad"), was created before the creation of the world, when "God took a handful of light and commanded it to be Muhammad". From it the world itself was created. Much emphasis is placed upon this idea by the Shi'ites, who find this light eminently manifest in their Imams, but the term is also encountered, mainly in the context ot mysticism, among the Sunnis, as a doctrine not unlike that of the logos.

Its origin is a corpus of sayings attributed to Ja'far as-Sadiq, and repeated among Shi'ite theologians. In one form it is reported by Mas'udi in his Muruj adh-Dhahab ("Meadows ot Gold"), in which the following words are attributed to 'All ibn AbuTalib:

When God wished to establish creation, the atoms of creatures, and the beginning of all created things, he first made what he created in the form of small particles. This was before He stretched out the earth or raised the heavens. . . He cast forth a ray of light, a flame from his splendor, and it was radiant. He scattered this light in the midst of invisible atoms, which he then united in the form of our Prophet. God the Most High then declared to him: "You are the first of those who shall speak, the one with the power of choice and the one chosen. To you I have trusted my light and the treasure ot my guidance. . .
For your sake I will appoint the people of your household for guidance. I will bestow upon them the secrets ot my knowledge: no truth will be hidden from them and no mystery concealed. I will designate them as my proof to mankind, as those who shall admonish men of my Power and remind them of my Unity. . . He had chosen Muhammad and his familv. . .

Ja'far as-Sadiq is also reported to have said:

The light descended upon our most noble men, and shone through our Imams, so that we are the lights of heaven and earth. To us is heaven committed and from us are the secrets of science derived, for we are the destination that all strive to reach. . . the Mahdi will be the final Proof, the seal of the Imams. . . we are the most noble of mankind, the most exalted of all creatures, the Proofs of the lord of the Worlds, and those who cling to our friendship will be favored in this life and in death they will have our support. . .

Also there have been extensive discussions on Imammat in this forum. Just access the topics by the method that I alluded to above.

Morg wrote: more questions

8. how does ismailis look upon the bohras, druzes and the alevis.

9. can anyone tell of ismaili states and when they were established who ruled them and when they ended. for exmaple the fatimids, qarmatians...

10. is there any ranking in the ismaili community? does the syeds have higher status and is there any structure which is religious? for example the hazar imam, the naib imam the dai and so on ... ?

As I mentioned above we do not make distinctions between other sects. All are considered by us as our brothers with a different interpretation of the concept of Imamat.

You will find historical info through the link to Ismaili History mentioned on the left of this window.

In the past we had various ranks in our organisation. At present we have only two offices of importance as mentioned above.

The number 7 has had historical significance by our Dais in the past. However currently it does not hold much significance.

Morg wrote:and btw

the answer to question nr one.
where could i find it? couse i dont see any topic named imam under section doctrines

There are many pages on the subject. Just go over all the pages.

Morg wrote: another thing i wanted to ask about
do anyone have information about siblings (brothers) of the different imams? i am working on a big family tree which includes important prophets and leaders of different sects from the time of adam (As) until present. so i would need the names of the siblings and the sons of the imams of ismailia firqa. thanx

You will find useful information about all Imams after Hazarat Ali in the Ismaili History section which has a link on the left of this window. General historical information about Imams after Hazarat Adam is vague and very difficult to obtain. Good luck in your search.

thanx alot for the information brothers
i will admit that it was a nice start to discuss with you, normally on sunni and shia forums in general there are alot of blaming and ulogical arguments.
but there is disipline here i can smell it hehe

i undertand that you dont want to talk about the bad points or talk about the differents of other ismaili or shia sects. but i wanted to know, the theological differneses. and it would be nice with a list of imams MUSTAWDA and a list of DAI , both in nizari and mustali camp. it would be great to know the theological differences as i am working on a table / book where i want to display how the different sects evolved and so on, and what theyr theological differences are

and i wanted to know another thing
is there other shia jaafri ismaili nizari who do not follow the imam karim agha khan IV? and rather follow another imami line? i mean has there been split in the ismaili community after the great escape to al-sham and to hassan sabaah?

The following is a brief historical overview of the Ismaili sect which also describes the various splits that occured. This taken from the memoirs of the previous Imam (48th) Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah.

"The Imam is thus the successor of the Prophet in his religious capacity; he is the man who must be obeyed and who dwells among those from whom he commands spiritual obedience. The Sunnis have always held that this authority is merely temporal and secular, and is exerted only in the political sphere; they believe therefore that it appertains to any lawfully constituted political head of a state, to a governor or to the president of a republic. The Shias say that this authority is all-pervading and is concerned with spiritual matters also, that it is transferred by inherited right to the Prophet's successors of his blood.


How this came about is best described in the words of Mr. Justice Arnold in his judgment delivered in the High Court of Bombay on November 12, 1866, in the great lawsuit brought against my grandfather, to which I later refer.


"The influence of Ayesha, the young and favourite wife of Mohammed, a rancorous enemy of Fatima and of Ali, procured the election of her own father Abu Bakr; to Abu Bakr succeeded Omar, and to him Osman, upon whose death, in the year 655 of the Christian era, Ali was at last raised to the Khalifat. He was not even then unopposed; aided by Ayesha, Moawiyah of the family of the Unimayads, contested the Khalifat with him, and while the strife was still doubtful, in the year A.D. 660, Ali was slain by a Kharegite, or Muslim fanatic, in the mosque of Cufa, at that time the principal Muslim city on the right or west bank of the Euphrates-itself long since a ruin, at no great distance from the ruins of Babylon."


Mr. Justice Arnold's judgment gives -a lucid and moving account of the effect on Muslim life and thought of this assassination and of the subsequent murders-nine years and twenty years after their fatherof Ali's two sons, Hassan and Hussein, the Prophet's beloved grand children whom he himself had publicly hailed as "the foremost among the youths of Paradise"; of the tragic and embittered hostility and misunderstanding that developed between the two main Muslim seats, and all the sorrow and the strife that afflicted succeeding generations.


Of the Shias there are many subdivisions; some of them believe that this spiritual headship, this Imamat which was Hazrat Ali's, descended through him in the six generation to Ismail from whom I myself claim my descent and my Imamat. Others believe that the Imamat is to be traced from Zeid, the grandson of Imam Hussein, the Prophet's grandson martyred at Kerbela. Still others, including the vast majority of the people of Persia, and Indian Shias, believe that the Imamat is now held by a living Imam, the twelfth from Ali, who has never died, who is alive and has lived thirteen hundred years among us, unseen but seeing; those who profess this doctrine are known as the Asna Asharis. The Ismailis themselves are divided into two parties, a division which stems from the period when my ancestors held the Fatimite Khalifat of Egypt. One party accepts my ancestor, Nizar, as the rightful successor of the Khalif of Egypt, Mustansir; whereas the other claims as Imam his other son, the Khalif Mustalli.


Thenceforward the story of the Ismailis, of my ancestors and their followers, moves through all the complexities, the ebb and flow, of Islamic history through many centuries. Gibbon, it has been said, abandoned as hopeless the task of clearing up the obscurities of an Asiatic pedigree; there is, however, endless fascination in the study of the web of characters and of events, woven across the ages, which unites us in this present time with all these far-distant glories, tragedies and mysteries. Often persecuted and oppressed, the faith of my ancestors was never destroyed; at times it flourished as in the epoch of the Fatimite Khalifs, at times it was obscure and little understood.


After the loss of the Fatimite Khalifat in Egypt, my ancestors moved first to the highlands of Syria and the Lebanon, thence they journeyed eastward to the mountains of Iran. They established a stronghold on the craggy peak of Alamut in the Elburz Mountains, the range which separates from the rest of Persia the provinces lying immediately to the south of the Caspian. Legend and history intertwine here in the strange tale of the Old Man of the Mountains, and of those hereditary Grand Masters of the Order of the Assassins who held Alamut for nearly two hundred years. In this period the Ismaili faith was well known in Syria, in Iraq, in Arabia itself, and far up into Central Asia. Cities such as Samarkand and Bokhara were then great centres of Muslim learning and thought. A little later in the thirteenth century of the Christian era, Ismaili religious propaganda penetrated into what is Sinkiang and Chinese Turkestan. There was a time in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries when the Ismaili doctrine was the chief and most influential Shi'ite school of thought; but later with the triumph of the Saffevi Dynasty in Iran (particularly in its northwest province, Azerbaijan) the Asna Ashari, or Twelfth Imam, sect established its predominance. Remnants of the Ismaili faith remained firm and are still to be found in many parts of Asia, North Africa and Iran. The historical centres of Ismailism indeed are scattered widely over all the Islamic world. In the mountainous regions of Syria, for example, are to be found the Druzes, in their fastness in the Jebel Druze. They are really Ismailis who did not originally follow my family in their migration out of Egypt but remained with the memory of my ancestor, AI Hakem, the Fatimite Khalif of Egypt, but they established their doctrines on lines very similar to those of the Syrian Ismailis, who, in present times, are my followers. Similar Ismaili "islands" exist in southern Egypt, in the Yemen and of course in Iraq. In Iran the centres are around Mahalat, westward toward Hamadan and to the south of Tehran; others are in Khorassan to the north and east around about Yezd, around Kerman and southward along the coast of the Persian Gulf from Bandar Abbas to the borders of Pakistan and Sind, and into Baluchistan. Others are in Afghanistan, in Kabul itself; there are many in Russia and Central Asia, around Yarkand, Kashgar and in many villages and settlements in Sinkiang. In India certain Hindu tribes were converted by missionaries sent to them by my ancestor, Shah Islam Shah, and took the name of Khojas; a similar process of conversion occurred in Burma as recently as the nineteenth century.


Now that I have brought this brief record of Ismaili origin, vicissitudes and wanderings within sight of the contemporary world, it may be timely to give an account in some detail of the life and deeds of my grandfather, the first to be known as the Aga Khan, who emerged into the light of history early in the nineteenth century of the Christian era. His life was (as Mr. Justice Arnold observed) "adventurous and romantic." He was the hereditary chieftain of the important city of Kerman and the son-in-law of the powerful and able Persian monarch, Fateh Ali Shah, holding considerable territorial possessions in addition to his inherited Imamat of the Ismailis.


In 1838 he was involved in conflict with the then ruling Emperor Mohammed Shah, for reasons of which Mr. Justice Arnold gave the following account: "Hadji Mirza Ahasi, who had been the tutor of Mohammed Shah, was during the whole reign of his royal pupil (from 1834 to 1848) the Prime Minister of Persia. A Persian of very low origin formerly in the service of the Aga Khan, had become the chief favourite and minion of the all-powerful minister. This person, though his patron, had the impudence to demand in marriage for his son one of the daughters of the Aga Khan, a granddaughter of the late Shah-in-Shah! This, says the Persian historian, was felt by the Aga Khan to be a great insult; and the request, though strongly pressed by the Prime Minister, was indignantly refused. Having thus made the most powerful man in Persia his deadly enemy, the Aga Khan probably felt that his best chance of safety was to assert himself in arms-a course not uncommon with the great feudatories of disorganized Persia. Making Kerman his headquarters, he appears to have kept up the fight with varying fortunes through the years 1838-1839 and part of 1840. In the latter year, overpowered by numbers, he was forced to flight and with difficulty made his escape, attended by a few horsemen, through the deserts of Baluchistan to Sind.


In his wanderings of the next few years my grandfather encountered and rendered stout assistance to the British in their process of military and imperial expansion northward and westward from the Punjab. In Sind he raised and maintained a troop of light horse (the descendants of whose survivors were so grave an anxiety to me many years later) and during the latter stages of the first Afghan War, in 1841 and 1842, he and his cavalry were of service to General Nott in Kardahar and to General England when he advanced out of Sind to join Nott. For these services and for others which he rendered to Sir Charles Napier in his conquest of Sind in 1843-1844, my grand father received a pension from the British Government.


In 1845 my grandfather reached Bombay where-as Mr. Justice Arnold expressed it -"he was received by the cordial homage of the whole Khoja population of this city and its neighbourhood." For a year or two from 1846 he was in Calcutta as a political prisoner because Mohammed Shah had remonstrated to the British Government about his presence in a port of such ready access to Persia as Bombay. However, in 1848 Mohammed Shah's reign came to an end, and my grandfather settled peaceably in Bombay and there established his durkhana or headquarters. Not only was this a wise and happy personal decision, but it had an admirable effect on the religious and communal life of the whole Ismaili world. It was as if the heavy load of persecution and fanatical hostility, which they had to bear for so long, was lifted. Deputations came to Bombay from places as remote as Kashgar, Bokhara, all parts of Iran, Syria, the Yemen, the African coast and the then narrowly settled hinterland behind it."

You will get the list of Mustaqarr Imams from the Ismaili Hisory section and the list of Mustawda Imams by searching 'Mustawda' through the search.

thanx for the information
the history of the ismaili sect was a bit lost after the escape to syria so it was nice to read it from the previous imam himself. thanx

but one thing i did not get or maybe two things

-doesnt the druzes believe the ismaili imam al-hakam bi amrillah to be god in human form? then how can they be similiar in the ismaili aqeeda... offcourse they derived from the mainstream ismaili jamaah but theyr belief in a imam to be god can be discussed...

-i asked wheither there are other nizari imami lines beside of the present of agha khan. for example has there been a split in the nizari ismiali community after the ascape to al-sham?


another thing i wondered was this. i found this list on wikipedia.org, a free website where everyone is welcomed to post whatever they want, so i wanted to confirm it and ask about the difference.

<A HREF=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismaili></A>

the link shows a list of the ismaili imams, in where when we see on the imami line from mohammad ibn ismail ibn jaafar and until the first fatimid caliph there will be names i hardly heard about and which have two kind of names. they are written like this

mohammad ibn ismail
abdullah (according to DAFTARI) / wafi ahmad (according to NIZARI)
Ahmad (according to DAFTARI) / taqi mohammad (according to NIZARI)
al-hussain (according to DAFTARI) / Raiyuddin Abdullah (according to NIZARI)
ubaydullah al-mahdi
mohammad al-qaim
...
...
fatimids...

what i noted here was that the imams 8 9 and 10 had different names accrding to the daftari and the nizari list. what is the daftari list and why does the names differ? [/url]

Morg wrote:thanx for the information
the history of the ismaili sect was a bit lost after the escape to syria so it was nice to read it from the previous imam himself. thanx

You are welcome!

Morg wrote: -doesnt the druzes believe the ismaili imam al-hakam bi amrillah to be god in human form? then how can they be similiar in the ismaili aqeeda... offcourse they derived from the mainstream ismaili jamaah but theyr belief in a imam to be god can be discussed...

I think it has to be understood that Ismaili tariqah is an esoteric tradition in which there are certain aspects that can be shared with others and there are others which cannot be divulged openly. Druze were excommunicated from the mainstream Ismailism because they divulged the esoteric aspects of Imamat to the public. Their belief was not wrong but their divulgance of it to the public was wrong. For more on this subject you may want to go to:

Doctrines --> Is HazarImam God

Also you can read more about the Druze at:

Fatimid Period --> The Druze Sect

Morg wrote: -i asked wheither there are other nizari imami lines beside of the present of agha khan. for example has there been a split in the nizari ismiali community after the ascape to al-sham?...

I do not believe there has been a major split in the Nizari Ismailism. People have left the tradition but have not formed a sect.

Morg wrote: another thing i wondered was this. i found this list on wikipedia.org, a free website where everyone is welcomed to post whatever they want, so i wanted to confirm it and ask about the difference.

<A HREF=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismaili></A>

the link shows a list of the ismaili imams, in where when we see on the imami line from mohammad ibn ismail ibn jaafar and until the first fatimid caliph there will be names i hardly heard about and which have two kind of names. they are written like this

mohammad ibn ismail
abdullah (according to DAFTARI) / wafi ahmad (according to NIZARI)
Ahmad (according to DAFTARI) / taqi mohammad (according to NIZARI)
al-hussain (according to DAFTARI) / Raiyuddin Abdullah (according to NIZARI)
ubaydullah al-mahdi
mohammad al-qaim
...
...
fatimids...

what i noted here was that the imams 8 9 and 10 had different names accrding to the daftari and the nizari list. what is the daftari list and why does the names differ? [/url]

In Arab culture people are sometimes known by their titles and not their actual names and hence you would have Imams known by different names. You will get a better appreciation of these differences when you read our history at the Ismaili History link provided on the left of this window.

ok thanx for the answers.
but i will come up with more, as i want to know as much as possible, i dont like to know about a sect or group from a opponent or from another group, i would rather like information from the group i am asking about. for example i could not ask everything about ismaili shias from the ithna ashari shias as there are theological differences, and there are differences in how they look upon ismailis and so on...

thereby i ask to confirm and satisfy myself so i can increase my knowledge.

heres another question.
the old man at the fort. the list of these old men, which position did they have, was they dais? and was they syeds too?

another thing i am wondering is, the assasins. was they the same nizari ismailis? (Assasins / hassasins) knows by the crusaders as those who could die in single attacks. and it isbelieved that if you die in battle or on "jihad" then you will be awarded ...number of virgins...

Morg wrote: the old man at the fort. the list of these old men, which position did they have, was they dais? and was they syeds too?

another thing i am wondering is, the assasins. was they the same nizari ismailis? (Assasins / hassasins) knows by the crusaders as those who could die in single attacks. and it isbelieved that if you die in battle or on "jihad" then you will be awarded ...number of virgins...

The old men were the dais and/or hujjats (proofs) of the Imam.

The following is an account of the Assassins given by Cyril Glasse in his The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam.

Assassins (from the Arabic hashshashin, "consumers of hashish", through Medieval Latin assassini). The name was adapted, from local usage, by the Crusadcrs for members of the Nizari branch of the Ismailis at a period when the sect was characterized by extreme militancy. This phase in the history of the Nizaris extended from 483/1090 until the fall of Alamut fortress in 654/1256. The association with hashish is obscure; it may come from stories that drugs were used as part of an indoctrination intended to produce perfect obedience to the leaders. Or simply, it may be a disparaging reference to the sect's character, as a "weaver of illusion", on the part of Sunnis. In Syria, where the Assassins occupied a string of fortresses, their chief was known to the Crusaders as Ic rieuv dc la mon-Ji/ne, "the old man of the mountain" (shavkh al-jabal). The most famous of the the Syrian leaders was Rashid ad-Din Sinan, but the movement was actually headed by the Masters of the castle of Alamut in Persia. The first of these was Hasan as-Sabbah who took over the leadership of of the main branch of the Isma'ilis when a schism occurred in Fatimid Egypt.

Hasan as-Sabbah was an Ismaili propagandist, or da’i, of Persian origin. Around the year 479/1086 he traveled to Egypt, then the center of Ismaili activity under the Fatimid dynasty, and subsequently returned to Persia to carry on propaganda in the name of Nizar, the expected successor to the Fatimid throne and the Isma'ili Imamate. However, in 487/1094 a struggle erupted in which Niz.ar was imprisoned and supplanted by his younger brother al-Musta'lli, at the instigation of the leader of the armies, al-Afdal. Hasan as-Sabbah, who was committed to upholding Nizar, took the occasion to break with the Fatimids, and by 483/1090 he had seized the fortress of Alamut, "the eagle's nest" in the north of Persia near the Caspian Sea. With Alamut as his center of operations, as-Sabbah succeeded in establishing a power base among the outer tribes in mountainous regions far removed from the centers of political influence….

The Assassins won disciples by claiming to possess the secret knowledge which is the core of Isma'ilism, known through the Imam, himself a hypostasis of the unknowable God and an intermedian to salvation. The Fatimid Caliphs were held by the Isma'ilis to be the Imams, and thus the spiritual heads of the sect.

Marco Polo passed through the region in 670/ 1271, and recorded in the account of his travels what he heard about the Assassins. The castle of Alamut was conquered by the Mongols in 654// 1256; thus stories told in Morocco that Marco Polo encountered the master of Alamut are factually impossible (and a blending of recent European influence with what may be authentically indigenous material). But the Moroccan stories are revealing in substance: they say that the leader of the sect set upon Marco Polo's head a helmet made of crystal. He could bear to wear it for only a moment because, when it was struck, the crystal produced the "sound of pure evil itself.

Hasan as-Sabbah's "Assassins" were known in the Islamic world at the time as the Ta'limiyyah, ("people of the teaching"), the Batiniyyah ("the people of the inner truth"), or the Fida'yyah ("the self-sacrificers"). Marco Polo gave this description of how the Assassins created completely submitted followers: as part of their initiation, novices destined to become self-destructive fida'yyin were drugged; they awoke to find themselves in a garden of delights complete with fountains flowing with wine, milk, and honey, and houris, the maidens of paradise. After this heady taste of the "afterlife", the new recruits were drugged again and when thev returned to their normal state were told that they had indeed visited paradise, which would be theirs without tail if they obeyed.

Taken allcgorically, and not literally, this could be termed a fair description of the process of intellectual indoctrination into the reality system of, say, a cult or a radical political movement; it is the glimpsing of a different and mysterious way of seeing the world, the unveiling of "hidden truths" which constitute the system's typically subjective explanation of theological, political, or even economic phenomena. This has a psychological impact which, once experienced, changes one's perceptions forever, so that it is usually difficult, it not impossible, to de-program completely. Marco Polo's story (to which there is a parallel in the "Universal History" of RashTd ad-DTn at-Tabib) is a traditional model of the process of deliberately modifying someone's perception of reality; in modern times it has come to be called "brainwashing".

To illustrate the Assassins' complete domination over their adepts, medieval European chroniclers reported that the followers of Assassin chiefs had been seen to hurl themselves to their deaths by leaping off precipices at their leader's command. More than likely this was a staged piece of theater intended to frighten their enemies, but it was effective and typical of the Assassin style. In any case, the fidayyin were certainly prepared to sacrifice their lives. Their mission was to sow fear of the sect through terrorism and at the same time to weaken their enemies bv the murder of key political figures.

The Assassins infiltrated the ranks of their adversaries, often in the guise of dervishes and religious teachers. When they attained to positions of trust thev would kill their selected victims, always through the use of a knife. Apparently by design, thev usually perished themselves when they carried out their orders. Among their victims were the famous Saljuqid vizier Nizam al-Mulk (the first to attempt to put down the Assassins), as well as his brother and his son; the Sultan Malik Shah; al Amir, son of al-Musta'li, the Fatimid who put Nizar to death; two 'Abbasid Caliphs, and hundreds, if not thousands, of others. In Syria, Crusader leaders were among their targets and the Assassins succeeded in murdering Conrad c Montferrat, King of Jerusalem. Saladin himself narrowly escaped Assassin attempts on his life an always had to be on his guard."

ref:- http://www.chnpress.com/news/?section=2&id=5522

Alamut Fortress, No Prison
=============================================


Alamut Fortress was not a prison, but was used by members of the royal family and rulers who were on exile during the Safavid period.
Tehran, 29 August, 2005 (CHN) - Archaeological investigations of Alamut fortress in Qazvin province indicate that despite the description of the fortress in historical books as a prison during Safavid period, it was used as an exile residence for members of the royal family and rulers.

They were sent to the fortress to rule over the area and be far from the central government.

Alamut is one of Iran’s unique historical fortresses located in the Roodbar-e Alamut area in Qazvin province. There is a close link between Alamut Fortress and the Ismailis. Hassan Sabah, leader of the cult, used the castle as the seat of his government and a place to preach Ismailis’ beliefs.

“The archeological investigations on some parts of the fortress dating back to the Safavid period have lead to the identification of facilities which existed in the fortress during the time. These facilities indicate that Alamut was not a prison and people who lived there were of high classes of society [on exile],” said Hamideh Choobak, archaeologist and director of Alamut Research Center.

She furthermore explained that the discovery of blacksmith, carpentry, and tile workshops belonging to the Safavid period shows that the place was not used as a prison.

Hookahs, clothes and metal designs and ornamentations of dresses, and metal buckles all confirm that important people must have lived in this fortress during the Safavid era. Some ceramic pieces are also found which belong to dishes only used by high classes of society and royal family.

The ancient fortress had been captured by Mongol Holaku Khan 300 years after the death of Hassan Sabah. Ismaili fighters resisted around 11 months against Holaku khan, but at last they were defeated. After capturing Alamut, Holaku Khan set the fortress on fire and destroyed it, putting an end to the history of Ismaili group.

But the main destruction was caused by Qajar diggings to find precious artifacts in the fortress.

A group of Iranian archaeologist is now excavating Alamut; they are on their fifth season of investigations and will continue working on the site till October 12.

so does this mean that hassan sabah had his influence on the imams who were inside the alamut fortress? becouse it is understood that the old man at the fort were the one who took resposibuilty for the ismaili faith..

Hassan bin Sabbah was responsible for the administration but he was answerable to the Imam.

Very much akin to the present day governance of our institutions. The Imam appoints council presidents who are then responsible for the governance of the council.

okey although i would thin that a powerful man like hassan sabah could use his position with the imam safe inside his castle to promote his values.
although that is a more political controversy. in religious perspective your answer would be correct.

do the ismailis wait for a imam mahdi? or is the seventh imam again and again the mahdi? for example was mohammad ibn ismail the 7th imam for ismailis, then seven imams from him was maad al-muizz ibn ismail al-mansur and from him the seventh imam al-muhtaqi ibn al-hadi... and so on... is that right? or is the imam mahdi always present in the form of the hazar imam...


btw
i was wondering how ismailis recite theyr kalima shahda
for example sunnis recite it

la ilaha illalaho mohammad al-rasool allah

shia ithna ashari recite it

la ilaha illalaho mohammad al-rasool allah , ali wali allah

(although the last part is only a addition and it is strictly by ithna asharis to believe it not to be a part of the decleration of faith)

do the ismailis have a similiar shahada?

and more questions

-how many times do ismailis pray
-how is the azaan called
-do you pray sunnahs, farz, nafals...
-during ramadan, do you pray tarawih...
-and is the mutah marriae also a practise in ismaili faith?

thank you.

Whereas

(A) The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.


(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat Alayha-s-salam).

Morg wrote: do the ismailis wait for a imam mahdi? or is the seventh imam again and again the mahdi? for example was mohammad ibn ismail the 7th imam for ismailis, then seven imams from him was maad al-muizz ibn ismail al-mansur and from him the seventh imam al-muhtaqi ibn al-hadi... and so on... is that right? or is the imam mahdi always present in the form of the hazar imam... .

There are many views on this issue. There have been many discussions on this subject. You may want to read them by searching the word 'Mahdi'.
My personal opinion is that all Imams have the same capacity and they are all Mahdis (resurrectors of the souls), it is a matter of the role they play in societies according to the conditions. At certain times in history they have assumed a wider role of Caliphates - the Fatimid period for example, and at other times they been hidden from publicity. I have not noted anything unusual/extra ordinary in the histories of the 7th, 14th, 21st, 28th, 35th Imams.

Morg wrote: btw
i was wondering how ismailis recite theyr kalima shahda
for example sunnis recite it

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah in his memoir says:

"The Sunnis are the people of the Sunna or tradition. Their Kalama or profession of faith is "There is no God but God and Mohammed is the Apostle of God." To this the Shias add: "And Ali, the companion of Mohammed, is the Vicar of God." Etymologically the word "Shia" means either a stream or a section."

Morg wrote: and more questions

-how many times do ismailis pray
-how is the azaan called
-do you pray sunnahs, farz, nafals...
-during ramadan, do you pray tarawih...
-and is the mutah marriae also a practise in ismaili faith?

thank you.

All these questions are dealt with in this forum under Customs and Traditions. You may want to go there for details.

Briefly...we pray 3 times a day. We do not have an azaan, everyone knows the fixed times of prayer. We have a different form of prayer called Dua. I have not heard the word tarawih. To my knowledge mutah marriages are not performed by Ismailis today.

by Kmaherali
Briefly...we pray 3 times a day. We do not have an azaan, everyone knows the fixed times of prayer. We have a different form of prayer called Dua. I have not heard the word tarawih. To my knowledge mutah marriages are not performed by Ismailis today.

Taraweeh is extra prayers during month of ramadhan. Again, they will debate-citing hadiths-whether it should be after isha or in congregation or whether it is called something else entirely.

No Mutah for ismailis or the pleasure or temporary marriages of the Sunnis like:
-Urfi
-Misyar
Do a google search on the terms.

And, ismailis do not take camel urine for general health,
or,
kill one who leaves their faith.

Ya Ali Madad,

logical wrote:

by Kmaherali
Briefly...we pray 3 times a day. We do not have an azaan, everyone knows the fixed times of prayer. We have a different form of prayer called Dua. I have not heard the word tarawih. To my knowledge mutah marriages are not performed by Ismailis today.

Taraweeh is extra prayers during month of ramadhan. Again, they will debate-citing hadiths-whether it should be after isha or in congregation or whether it is called something else entirely.

No Mutah for ismailis or the pleasure or temporary marriages of the Sunnis like:
-Urfi
-Misyar
Do a google search on the terms.

And, ismailis do not take camel urine for general health,
or,
kill one who leaves their faith.

I agree with u on taraweeh prayers but I didn’t understand Mutah or temporary marriages of the Sunnis and from were did you know about camel……..;and killing it etc. plz explain. This are not Sunni practices.

SJD

Zubair

salam
YA ALI MADAD

Tarawi
============

an additional prayers which was introduced by Hz Umar r.a (as per Bukhari)


& bro logical, pls.. dont be hyper.. cool down

regards,

logical wrote:

by Kmaherali
Briefly...we pray 3 times a day. We do not have an azaan, everyone knows the fixed times of prayer. We have a different form of prayer called Dua. I have not heard the word tarawih. To my knowledge mutah marriages are not performed by Ismailis today.

Taraweeh is extra prayers during month of ramadhan. Again, they will debate-citing hadiths-whether it should be after isha or in congregation or whether it is called something else entirely.

No Mutah for ismailis or the pleasure or temporary marriages of the Sunnis like:
-Urfi
-Misyar
Do a google search on the terms.

And, ismailis do not take camel urine for general health,
or,
kill one who leaves their faith.

logical
tell me in any sentense i harrassed the ismaili faith. do you actually understand why i am here? i am learning about the sect of ismailia with great respect, and then you come in and talk about this urine and stuff... that really dissapoints me and breaks my hearth as i had no bad intentions to either mock or make fun of any sect or religion
although i am not that kind of man who generalise the people, and all except yu on this forum and ismailis general behave well and diciplined.

@ kmaherali

thanx for the answers i will check out the costums and tradition forum, but please always check this topic as i may hav other questions too

thanx

@zubayr mehmood
brother
in general there are ignorant people among sunnis and shias. when they discuss as i have seen it myself they will slander each other with these words, "you shias perform legalised prostitution (mutah)", "you sunnis perform a bidah of legalised prostitution (mutah) "
as these things can be considered prostitution in our mind, but in theyr right elements they are served as a religious duty or a costume to follow with rules and all
mutah:
is a temporary marriage in where a couple goes into nikah and for a peirod, can be of one day two weeks years or whole life. this is ended with a dowry to the girl, any child from this marriage will be the girls.
this is believed by sunnis to have been abolished by mohammad saww
while shias practise it today (not ismailis as i know now) as they believe only omar (ra) abolished it

misyar:
common in arab nations specially in sadia, jordan and missr. a marriage in where the girl do not leave here parents house, and the boy can visit here whenever he want and they are married as a couple. although this is temporary stnace , becouse one day the girl and the boy has to move together. this is practised among poor people or students who cannot afford a job at the time.
although this is rejected by non arab ullamas as a bidah or a not necesarry practise, and by shias it is the great bidah
it was legalised by the salafi sheikh ibn baz

tarawih
it is believed by sunnis to be a sunnah of prophet mohammad saww. but i cant proove it as i havent read the hadith myself. although it is confirmed that the ameer ul momineens (the fours khalifa rashedeen) used to lead tarawih prayers in the month of ramadan.
it is a prayer prayed during isha, as isha goes normally like this
4 sunnah, 4 fadh, 2 sunnah, 2 nafl, 3 witr, 2 nafl
while during ramadan there is 20 rakaahs of tarawih before the prayer of 3 witr. the 20 rakah can be disputed as some pray 8 others 12 while others 20, it is prayed in 2 X 10 sunnahs or 4 X 5 sunnah , it differs becouse of the small theological and fiqh difference among the four madhbbs
the aim is to complete the quraan during each rakaah in qirat (where the imam speaks in front of the jamaah) in 27 days. but the last three days are also prayed with tarawih and the month of ramadan is comepleted.
although it is not necesarry sunnis pray it in the mosques during ramaadan


and i home logical will not come up with more secterian or commentary which will make the harmony in here bad.
and i hope that other brothers as well as sisters will help me in understanding ismaili sect.
and if ismailis do want to know about some elements of sunni islam then feel free to ask too

waslam

hey i recently discovered some interesting facts about the split within the nizari communiti.
that the son of the pir or imam mustalaqq Hasan Qabeeruddin , Imam Shah had started his own sect in the area of gujarat in present india... his son Nur Mohammad Shah is believed to say that his father were the real imam.

can you tell me more about this split, ... thanx

Morg wrote:hey i recently discovered some interesting facts about the split within the nizari communiti.
that the son of the pir or imam mustalaqq Hasan Qabeeruddin , Imam Shah had started his own sect in the area of gujarat in present india... his son Nur Mohammad Shah is believed to say that his father were the real imam.

can you tell me more about this split, ... thanx

There is an article about them in this forum at:

Alamut and Post Alamut --> Imam Shahis in Pirana

QUOTE: and if ismailis do want to know about some elements of sunni islam then feel free to ask too


Dear Morg,

As-Salaam Alley-Kum,



I have a question for you. There is a very famous hadith of the Prophet in which he says “whosoever dies without knowing the Imam of his time, will have died the death of Jahaliya.” Muslims of all denominations agree that this is an authentic hadith. Do you know why the Prophet said so? Please explain according to your understanding.

We have a Living Imam and he sets out what we should do. We do not question him as to why we do not do what other Muslims do, Because the Qur’an says, Obey Allah, Obey the Apostle and Obey the Ulil Amr. Qur’an Allah S.W.T. also says not to question the Prophet. Our Imam is our Ulil Amr. We do not question him. That is where we differ from a lot of Muslims. This is one of the most important aspects of Islam and in particular Shia Islam. Without the love and obedience to the Imam ( and in the Prophet’s time, love and obedience to the Prophet PBUH) all our fasts, prayers, zakah, etc. are useless. I can quote you several ahadith of the Prophet in which he has stated that without the love of the Prophet, none of our rituals are valid. Now, do you believe the prescriptions of the Qur’an of 1400 years ago, were not meant to be changed according to the time and prevailing conditions? If you, like other Muslims, including Ismailis believe the prescriptions should not be changed, then please answer:

Within 13 or so years of the passing of the Prophet S.A.W. Hazarat Umar changed three prescriptions as follows:

1. The Qur’an says that part of Karde Hasana should be distributed to the non-believers so that they do not antagonize the Muslims. Hazarat Umar decided that the times had changed and Muslims were stronger so they did not need to distribute money to the non-believers.

2. Qur’an says that a talaq should be granted in 3 sittings. There were intervals between each sitting to give time to the contesting parties time to reconsider their decision. Hazarat Umar said that this was cumbersome and that the Talaq should be given in one sitting with 3 pronouncements of the Talaq.

3. Qur’an says that a thief’s hand should be separated at the wrist so that he can never steal. Hazarat Umar abolished that because he said there was a famine (time had changed) and people were desperate so they stole.

Hazarat Umar also added “prayer is better than sleep” to the adhan that the Prophet had used all his life. And Hazarat Othman added additional adhan to the Friday prayer. Hazarat Umar was the one who introduced Tarawih prayer during Ramadhan, Prophet did not.

Believe me, I have no problem with what the two Caliphas did. I think they were right in what they did because times had changed and they did what was better for the Ummah. The Prophet of Islam has said that religion should not be cumbersome (if you wish I can give you the ahadith) and that it should be simple so that people can follow it.

There are numerous ahadith in which the Prophet has changed the times of prayers and shortened the prayers in order to accommodate the congregants.

As regards Assassins, please read “The Assassin Legends, Myths of the Ismailis” by Farhad Daftary.
Most of the myths about the Assassins were produced and distributed by sources hostile to Ismailis, Marco Polo (who was even discredited by his own Church) and the Crusaders. As you must be aware, most of the Ismaili literature was destroyed, once by the Abbassids (thrown in the Nile) and the other by the Mongols (burned to ashes). Akhu Muhsin and Juvaini were major contributors of anti-Ismaili literature and these circulated for a long time until the recent research.

Thanks for hearing me out.

ShamsB wrote:QUOTE: and if ismailis do want to know about some elements of sunni islam then feel free to ask too


Dear Morg,

As-Salaam Alley-Kum,



I have a question for you. There is a very famous hadith of the Prophet in which he says “whosoever dies without knowing the Imam of his time, will have died the death of Jahaliya.” Muslims of all denominations agree that this is an authentic hadith. Do you know why the Prophet said so? Please explain according to your understanding.

We have a Living Imam and he sets out what we should do. We do not question him as to why we do not do what other Muslims do, Because the Qur’an says, Obey Allah, Obey the Apostle and Obey the Ulil Amr. Qur’an Allah S.W.T. also says not to question the Prophet. Our Imam is our Ulil Amr. We do not question him. That is where we differ from a lot of Muslims. This is one of the most important aspects of Islam and in particular Shia Islam. Without the love and obedience to the Imam ( and in the Prophet’s time, love and obedience to the Prophet PBUH) all our fasts, prayers, zakah, etc. are useless. I can quote you several ahadith of the Prophet in which he has stated that without the love of the Prophet, none of our rituals are valid. Now, do you believe the prescriptions of the Qur’an of 1400 years ago, were not meant to be changed according to the time and prevailing conditions? If you, like other Muslims, including Ismailis believe the prescriptions should not be changed, then please answer:

Within 13 or so years of the passing of the Prophet S.A.W. Hazarat Umar changed three prescriptions as follows:

1. The Qur’an says that part of Karde Hasana should be distributed to the non-believers so that they do not antagonize the Muslims. Hazarat Umar decided that the times had changed and Muslims were stronger so they did not need to distribute money to the non-believers.

2. Qur’an says that a talaq should be granted in 3 sittings. There were intervals between each sitting to give time to the contesting parties time to reconsider their decision. Hazarat Umar said that this was cumbersome and that the Talaq should be given in one sitting with 3 pronouncements of the Talaq.

3. Qur’an says that a thief’s hand should be separated at the wrist so that he can never steal. Hazarat Umar abolished that because he said there was a famine (time had changed) and people were desperate so they stole.

Hazarat Umar also added “prayer is better than sleep” to the adhan that the Prophet had used all his life. And Hazarat Othman added additional adhan to the Friday prayer. Hazarat Umar was the one who introduced Tarawih prayer during Ramadhan, Prophet did not.

Believe me, I have no problem with what the two Caliphas did. I think they were right in what they did because times had changed and they did what was better for the Ummah. The Prophet of Islam has said that religion should not be cumbersome (if you wish I can give you the ahadith) and that it should be simple so that people can follow it.

There are numerous ahadith in which the Prophet has changed the times of prayers and shortened the prayers in order to accommodate the congregants.

As regards Assassins, please read “The Assassin Legends, Myths of the Ismailis” by Farhad Daftary.
Most of the myths about the Assassins were produced and distributed by sources hostile to Ismailis, Marco Polo (who was even discredited by his own Church) and the Crusaders. As you must be aware, most of the Ismaili literature was destroyed, once by the Abbassids (thrown in the Nile) and the other by the Mongols (burned to ashes). Akhu Muhsin and Juvaini were major contributors of anti-Ismaili literature and these circulated for a long time until the recent research.

Thanks for hearing me out.

Dear ShamsB,
It is the same everytime. Ask them questions and they will put you on hold indefinitely.

If I may:
Your point # 1 re: Karde Hasana also applies to their rejection of the core verse in Quran i.e. " There is no Compulsion in Religion"; They rejected this verse for the same reason or the muslims had become strong and did not need to co-exist equally & peacefully with the jews, christians and others. So, they(majority) promoted the superiority of Islam over all and look where they are today!

The majoritarians will use this verse these days when cornered about the violent nature of Majority Islam (Truth) and cite - thru corner of their mouths:
"In Islam, there is no Compulsion in Religion."

logical
you surprice me once again. seems like you didnt earn from my last lecture. i will tell you not to indicate what i am doing, becouse you do not know if i ran from this question or had a really hard week with my school work. so please stop generalising me and stop generalising the sunnis. as i have dont nothing but used civilised manners and respective langauge on this forum, i hope you as a ismaili and as my host will do better than you have done

dear brother Shmas
i can not answer yout question as i am not 100% sure about how i should eplain the answer or it may be wrong what ever i say. thereby i think silence is better.
why i said to ask me about sunnism. was meanth to be the simplier sunni theology as prayers, fasts and so on...

thanx for understanding.

from logical
Dear ShamsB,
It is the same everytime. Ask them questions and they will put you on hold indefinitely.

If I may:
Your point # 1 re: Karde Hasana also applies to their rejection of the core verse in Quran i.e. " There is no Compulsion in Religion"; They rejected this verse for the same reason or the muslims had become strong and did not need to co-exist equally & peacefully with the jews, christians and others. So, they(majority) promoted the superiority of Islam over all and look where they are today!

The majoritarians will use this verse these days when cornered about the violent nature of Majority Islam (Truth) and cite - thru corner of their mouths:
"In Islam, there is no Compulsion in Religion."

I always stand by what I write!
If the Sharia'h is immutable for all eternity then why did 180 scholars at the end of the first International Islamic Conference in Jordan condemned the principle of accusations of apostasy and the legalization of the assassination of Muslims for religious reasons.

They tossed a teaching of the Prophet (Sunnah) which according to them constitutes their Sharia law and their version of islam or Madzhab. The Sharia'h of Apostasy is based on this Authenticated hadith followed by all Sunnis.
"If anyone leaves Islam, KILL HIM"
It is the same source that gives them their Namaz.

Reminds me of a deranged individual and his ranting:
"Nobody can change sharia'h"


http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=8831

Ya Ali Madad kmaherali

You stated:

Morg wrote: 7.how does the ismailis look on the imami line from musa kazim ibn jaafar saadiq and further to mahdi ? (the ithna ashari line)?

We consider them as imposters at best.

i[/quote]

Your opinion may be incorrect. Consider the conclusion to 'Proofs for the Imamah of Imam Ismai'l ibn Ja'far' (http://www.nuralimam.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=51):

"IX. Conclusions

What, then, are we to make of the famous hadith of the Prophet:

&#1587;&#1610;&#1603;&#1608;&#1606; &#1576;&#1593;&#1583;&#1610; &#1575;&#1579;&#1606;&#1575; &#1593;&#1588;&#1585; &#1582;&#1604;&#1610;&#1601;&#1577;
“There will be, after me, twelve successors.”

Nothing that we have said in the previous pages invalidates Imam Musas’s Imamah; it only shows that, on its own, the Twelver line cannot function properly. There needs to be a manifest Imam in every age in order to guide the people. But there are two kinds of Imams, as has been explained by Imam as-Sadiq:

&#1604;&#1575; &#1576;&#1583; &#1601;&#1610; &#1603;&#1604; &#1586; &#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1605;&#1606; &#1571;&#1605;&#1575;&#1605;&#1610;&#1606;: &#1571;&#1581;&#1583;&#1607;&#1605;&#1575; &#1606;&#1575;&#1591;&#1602; &#1608; &#1575;&#1604;&#1575;&#1582;&#1585; &#1589;&#1575;&#1605;&#1578;
In every age, there are two Imams: one speaking [natiq], the other silent [samit].

That speaking Imam now is Mawlana Hadir Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni. But this does not negate the existence of Imam Muhammad ibn Hasan al-Askari as a hidden, silent Imam. The hadith of twelve successors validates that lineage of Imams.

The Ismaili Imams have themselves validated this line by their own participation in the Twelver Ni’matullahi Sufi order. This is narrated by Imam Hasan Ali Shah Aga Khan I in his autobiography, Ibrat al-Afza, acknowledges the Ni’matullahi Shaykh Mast ‘Ali Shah as his spiritual preceptor. To dismiss this as an act of taqiyyah, especially at a time where the Imam was actually quite powerful (so powerful that he helped the British conquer Sind), would be absurd. Rather, it makes more sense that the Ismaili Imams (in spite of whatever the Ismaili community may think) were well aware of the dual-nature of Imamah, and accepted the truth of both lines. The problem is that neither community accepts this, and immediately goes into panic mode the moment it is brought up (in spite of Imam as-Sadiq saying there are always two Imams, though they do not both speak at the same time). We see from history that the Ismaili Imams and the Twelver Imams were never manifest at the same time; that within a short time after the Twelver Mahdi went into Occultation, the Ismaili Mahdi came out of Occultation. Imam Mustansir bi Allah II orders obedience to “the Imam, the servant of Allah (Abd Allah) al-Mahdi” in his Pandiyat-i Javanmardi. Imam Hasan ala dhikrihi salam says that he is the caliph (representative) of the hidden Imam. It is clear that the way to true ma’rifah is the recognition of both lines of Imamah, rather then to fall into an empty-headed sectarianism that follows one to the exclusion of others. Both have nass. Both are to be followed. In the absence of the Twelfth Imam, it is the Ismaili Imam of the age who is to be followed for the people of the tariqah, while the people of shari’ah will follow the shari’ah in the way taught by the Twelve Imams. The people of haqiqah, on the other hand, will recognize the truth of the words of the great commentator on the Sufi Ibn ‘Arabi, Abu al-‘Ala al-Effendi:

The Real, in terms of His Essence as described by Attributes and Names, is not manifest to anybody except through the path of theophany (mujali) and existential theophanic forms (mazahir), the forms which constitute the universe. But the Real is manifest to every heart, and He is manifest to the heart of the saint in a special way: there, He is manifest in the forms of beliefs the one who possesses this [saintly] heart…True knowledge (ma`rifah) of the Real is that you do not limit (tuqayyid) Him to a specific form, so that you dispute about it and deny every other form. No, true knowledge is that you absolutely free Him (tatlaquhi itlaq&#257;n) [to appear] in every existential form equally, meaning that He appears in the form of every religious belief equally. The forms of existence are infinite, and so your knowledge of Him can never end (`Afifi 2:147).

Such a person will live by the words of Ibn ‘Arabi himself, when he writes:

My heart has become capable of every form: it is a pasture for gazelles and a convent for Christian monks, and a temple for idols and the pilgrim's Ka'ba and the tables of the Tora and the book of the Koran. I follow the religion of Love: whatever way Love's camels take, that is my religion and my faith"