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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Changes in the Ginans
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Changes in the Ginans
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 6063

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to forget that the Farman of the present Imam says Ginans have to be kept for generations to come.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad.
In a Taraqati frame work of Imamat.All acts and direction by a board having any consequence is fully vetted by MHI and under his guidance n direction.
If any changes are there it is healthy for the Jamat.
Just because of many who may have passion for the quantity(not quality) of Ginans dislike the board and it member but like MHI.
It is same like liking Rasulillah not liking ALI in spite of verbal declaration.
Then what is the difference between a doomed Shariati n rebel or annoyed Tariqati.

Firstly we have to study the period ,time n circumstances how the Pirs
inspired the local people in those times.

What elements went into their Sufi compositions presently called as Ginans.
Many Ginan which are not inspiring faith at desired level but sound like religious stories n philosophy needed to re looked at present times.

What Nasir Khusraw did was he wrote his academics n philosophy seperately and wrote short Qasidas inspiring Faith few of them separately.

He had a fine secular education back ground before he started preaching.

I remember an incident when a late Alwaez in Andheri jamatkhana said
on his reservations of changes in Ginans.

He said if the word' Hari 'kept in original form instead of Ali.
He said in urdu/hindi. " kya unko kutte (dogs)will to bite them.

He was aiming at the board/association ,but directly n vocally refuse to accept MHI strict guidance/order.

Same sentiments ( dharmik bhavna n not Imaan) is there in members who cherish his memories n advocate for Ginans with Zahiri understanding.( shallow or deep).

Somebody has earlier posted that many sects are still there of earlier may be Khojas who got attached to our Pirs n their memories.

Noorani mandate for Pir's N Dai's was to inspire then to Follow Imam of the time and not follow them in toto.

Please differentiate when MHI uses the word Tariqa and precisely the
word "traditions'.
Tariqa is to be followed n traditions is to up holded.

All the Sufi material is like variety of quality starter in a Lavish meal spread.
It is like an interim syllabus to reach the Farmans n move forward with them.

What Ginans visavis other Material of Traditions MHI know best.
For us it is just one n one word 'Aamin' and no unwarranted debate.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One should not speak of subjects that one does not understand. And please stop attributing sentences to the Imam when He has not said anything of that sort.

The time where people blindly believed anything that someone said if he added "Imam said this and that", is gone since a long long time. Changing "Hari" in "Ali" is a fallacy from the realm of propaganda, it has nothing to do with Imam's guidance.

And I hope you can see the stupidity of replacing "Ali rupe Hari awyia" (God came as Ali) by "Ali rupe Ali awiya" (Ali came as Ali")
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad

Please leave it to MHI his prerogative in matters of Tariqat .
Try to understand the value n weight age of tradition material
and our Tariqa.
Has anybody done a 360 degrees analysis of Ginans n Pirantan activity
around 700 years back ?
We are living in year 2013.
Ours is dynamic n living faith.
So modifications of any syllabus is can b ongoing process for any excellence is to be achieved.

Sometime I feel this website is deeply attached to Waez's and conviction
(100% Zahiri) of that person.

Ginan Qasidas etc by Pir's are supplementary in our Tariqa.

As I have tried to make it simple by comparing to starters in a lavish meal.
Farmans being the main course.

Suppose in a region 5 starters served all fried ones and owner removes
2 heavy fried ones from it and add one more with Baked dry fruits starter from other region to make
the meal more healthy and appealing.(5-2+1=4) (lesser cholesterol)

In a meal of many courses one does not go GaGa over starters n some
over starting course of Salads.
I am keeping myself on hold for saying more on Ginans as few matured bloggers carry overt Dharmik Bhavna (religious sentiments) for it.
BTW.
Recently I explained by lavish meal comparison theory to senior Bhagats in Gujarati n hindi mix in my JK.They complimented me and told me that I should tell the whole Jamaat over the mike.

Ginan ni rajniti/politics bandh karo anee

ALI BOLO ALI BOLO MUNIWAR BHAIYEE.

please somebody complete this verse with next two lines
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Admin



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are not going to subscribed to your views on Ginans. Your views are completely disconnected from Hazar Imam's Farmans on Ginans and the Ismaili understanding of the Status of Hujjat ul Imam, Pir.

Our Present Pir according to the same Will of Sultan Muhammad Shah is Mowlana Shah Karim. He is the Pir of ALL Ismailis according to the same will. Some accept him as such, some compare him to Dai's of the past.


Lets agree to disagree, you have come again and again since a long time to try unsuccessfully to discredit Ismaili Pirs and their Ginans. Put an end to this game. One does not become "Nuseri" by calling himself with such a name.

If Ali is central to your belief, He is also central to the beliefs of Satpanthi Ismailis and our Ginans.

If you do not know that Satpanth and Sirat al Mustakeem is the same, there is nothing much we can do about it.

This is not the place to insult Ismaili Ginans, there are other Fora more appropriate for this.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ginans are wonderful and unique heritage. But when I read minutes of Paris Conference, all ginans were classified into three categories. It does not talk about publication of ginans in third category at all ! But it talks about sending compilation of all such ginans at IIS.

As for Pakistan, it is still understandable that the prevailing atmosphere of orthodoxy could be the reason of not having such Ginans. In Pak, religious extremism has taken deep roots. But in secular country of India, the condition is totally opposite. Despite of all freedom, still there is more restriction for such Ginans in India.

I would however like to know whether in Canda or in African countries is there still recitation of Ginans with theme of das avatars or not?

Paris Conference minutes also talk about sending transcript of Farmans to Imam for approval and seeking His guidance for publication. Although Farman is Farman as soon as Imam speaks it. Some time back I had a talk with an alwaez working in Tariqa board. I asked him why Golden Jubilee Farmans are still not published. He replied me before blaming tariqa board, tell me is there any other tariqa board in the world which has published it? The reason is simply they are not authorized to publish it. However, Farman are made available in JK but they have not got guidance regarding publishing it.
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a_27826



Joined: 03 Jan 2010
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Location: Da es salaam

PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
please stop attributing sentences to the Imam when He has not said anything of that sort.

The time where people blindly believed anything that someone said if he added "Imam said this and that", is gone since a long long time.


If i am not wrong, Ismailism is all about Imams and their firmans.

But you are not allowing firmans to be posted here and hence "Imam said this and that"

How are we going to discuss any thing about our faith without quoting Imam's firmans ?

Is it because you are not legally allowed to allow firmans to be posted ?

Or you support the theory that since firmans are for Ismails only, so non Ismailis should not have access to them ?
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Admin



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Ismailism is about Farmans. I would say there is no Ismailism without Farmans. Farman-bardari [Following the Farmans] make the difference between been an Ismaili or a not being an Ismaili. People who block Ismailis from having Farmans are either idiots or enemies of the Imam. farmans are made to be known and followed.

I am not against posting on the web one sentence from a Farman if it is a general Farman. In fact when the Imam makes a general Farman where so many people have gather, all of the various government agencies are taping the Farmans and they are not Ismailis, whichever the country the Farman is made in. And in some countries, it is easier to get a copy from some corrupt gov. clerk than from ITREB. Indeed it would be unwise to think that governments of various countries do not wish to know what the Imam say to his Murids as this would affect them perhaps. They penetrate the hall (electronically of otherwise) and many time you would notice a van nearby with antennas. Just go see them after Didar. You would be surprised of what they can give you...

But Ismailis are the people to whom Farmans are made so let the the Farmans remain between themselves, in their houses, not on a public space like the www.

That is one reason I would never feel comfortable having Farmans other than general, even short sentences here. Let us discuss public knowledge here. What is for the field of personal search deep into the world of your soul has to remain between the Imam and his Murid.

I agree that this approach handicaps the discussion. Myself I am in that situation many time where there are very clear Farmans that I know of, of which I have listened the tape or of which I have attended and heard personally but I can not quote here though people put pressure on me to quote them. Sometimes you have to trust people. If you know someone is generally well informed on a subject such as Farmans, you will have to trust. If not, there will be plenty of opportunities in life to find the truth or even one day to ask the Imam.

For example since many years I have a question in my mind about a typo in some old farmans transcript made in East Africa about Ikhwan al Sufi and Ikhwan al Safa. I am waiting since 1974 to ask this question to the Imam directly. One day, I know, I will have that opportunity.
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a_27826



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
Yes Ismailism is about Farmans. I would say there is no Ismailism without Farmans. Farman-bardari [Following the Farmans] make the difference between been an Ismaili or a not being an Ismaili. People who block Ismailis from having Farmans are either idiots or enemies of the Imam. farmans are made to be known and followed.

I am not against posting on the web one sentence from a Farman if it is a general Farman. In fact when the Imam makes a general Farman where so many people have gather, all of the various government agencies are taping the Farmans and they are not Ismailis, whichever the country the Farman is made in. And in some countries, it is easier to get a copy from some corrupt gov. clerk than from ITREB. Indeed it would be unwise to think that governments of various countries do not wish to know what the Imam say to his Murids as this would affect them perhaps. They penetrate the hall (electronically of otherwise) and many time you would notice a van nearby with antennas. Just go see them after Didar. You would be surprised of what they can give you...

But Ismailis are the people to whom Farmans are made so let the the Farmans remain between themselves, in their houses, not on a public space like the www.

That is one reason I would never feel comfortable having Farmans other than general, even short sentences here. Let us discuss public knowledge here. What is for the field of personal search deep into the world of your soul has to remain between the Imam and his Murid.

I agree that this approach handicaps the discussion. Myself I am in that situation many time where there are very clear Farmans that I know of, of which I have listened the tape or of which I have attended and heard personally but I can not quote here though people put pressure on me to quote them. Sometimes you have to trust people. If you know someone is generally well informed on a subject such as Farmans, you will have to trust. If not, there will be plenty of opportunities in life to find the truth or even one day to ask the Imam.

For example since many years I have a question in my mind about a typo in some old farmans transcript made in East Africa about Ikhwan al Sufi and Ikhwan al Safa. I am waiting since 1974 to ask this question to the Imam directly. One day, I know, I will have that opportunity.


Why I asked this because its easy for enemies to know what Imam said than the followers of the Imam.

Akber Merally website has published the Word (Isme Azam/bol) given by the Imam to his BK members.

NOTE:

I am not implying the "Word" should be published here, but just worried about the guidance through farmans are unnecessarily not reaching enough to the ismailis through text.

In JK, Mukhi saheb decides which firmans to be recited.

On individual basis I can not study all the firmans.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2059
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as USA concerned no bro, das avtar ginan is not recited in Jk matter of fact maNY Ismaili do not belive in 10 incarnations but in Texas I found many they are accepting das avtar theory.
By the way I already wrote about Nuseri that he does not belive in ginans and our piratan concept at all. It is very sad for him if he claims his self as an ismali. Do not you belive this?! then you have to go long way bit read his very first post! sorry for spelling mistakes becauze I am using my cell phone, Munir.
One more thing that I have observed that he has some kind of mentally distribution or phonological distributions. I hope and wish he does not have this but this is my inner feeling that he has some kind of this illness I hope I am wrong but his all posts tells about this and that is the only one reason I do not read his any post lately. Do not hou believe this? Then go back and read what Admin wrote about him!?


Last edited by agakhani on Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total
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nuseri



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Agakhani:Ya Ali Madad.
You would be better off with Farmans of MHI said in our period of livng for next few decades n centuries (FOLLOW THE TARIQA) rather than get emotionally n academically attached to material of traditions( supplementory interim material) 700 years old.Altough it is very much valid
in essence if baatin is understood of It(IT IS NOT OVER N ABOVE THE FARMANS).
Your is simple open n shut case of 'grapes are sour'.
when a person make analysis that does not mean he is against that material but advocating it be less in quantity and selective quality to speed up inspiration from it.Times have changed.
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star_munir



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad, thanks for letting me know about U.S. In U.S.A I think mostly jamat comprises of Indians and Pakistanis and in India and Pakistan such Ginans are not recited. In India, even recitation of Chogadia on Thursday is no more in practice. I would like to know about Canada and African countries. I had seen one Ginan book published in Africa, where Ginans were written unedited. But that was old book. I would like to know whether are they still reading/reciting the Ginans with exact same words or the one which were edited.
As for Nuseri..you are right that quality matters but quantity matters alot too. Being selective in approach would mean limiting the knowledge.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some people have problems with Ginans written 800 years ago by the Imam Mustawda but the same people do not have problems with Qasidas written a thousands years ago by some Dai's.

The fact remains that the Ginan tradition expands from the Declaration of Qiyamah in Alamut. A Farman to all beings of the Universe, that did not exist in that form a thousand years ago and though we also respect some of the Dai's converted to Ismailism from their Ithnashri birth religion, we also realise that these Dai's could not and never did inspire themselves from the Declaration of Mowlana Hassan Alazikrihis-Salam which came much later, in 1164.

Now if these Dai's would have been able to cover more ground on Ismailism and expand and inspire themselves from Mowlana Hakim's Declaration of His own tenth Manifestation on Earth, that would have been of importance to bridge the gap.

Now obviously we give more importance to those dai's that had access to other Declaration of Imamat such as those contained in the Khutbat al Bayyan, The Khutbat al Tatanjiyah of Hazrat Ali or the Ummul Kitab of Imam Muhammad Baqir.

We also give importance to works other than Ginans when they are written by our "Imam Mustawda", our "Pirs" such as the book of Pir Shabuddin Shah recommended by Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah.

And again Farmans are our Pirs as they come from the Light of the Imam. Farmans such as "Pir" Pandiyat Jawanmardi icon_wink.gif
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nuseri



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Admin:Ya Ali Madad.

(aap kabhi moula ali madad bologe? .Aap to uksi shayad zarurat nahi ,kyoki moti moti kitab jo hai aap ke paas)

I will take two of your postings
1.You seem to vent your frustration and almost lodge a protest note for the board or concerned leaders.
Please note in current times every word or act of MHI can have reaction
as does his legitimate signatures on the Farmans.
As almost all of are Jamaat are in Zahiri frame of toughts so all haqiqati
words n act are desired by us from the Imam at Tariqat level.
I also do feel that many farman I need to study more is not avbl to me.
The board within best of their ability is having material avbl for readings
in JK.
I do also have question to IIS who is spending millions of pounds on research on what Sufi of the past wrote n undermining the that sufism
is very much alive even in present Imam's time.
you also face similar handicap in maintaining your website.on what
is to published n what is to be deleted.
If you are true Momin speak to him in your heart.
ALI does what he desires,he has sent me to your site rather than IIS.

As for your posting on Dai etc.

To whom did MHI said as Foremost thinkers amongst Ismailis.
Back ground is less important in preaching but education love n ability
to receive Noorani Hidayat and express n inspire the masses then.
His strategy was different and is reflected in many many millions holding
thier Faith since last 1000 years in poverty n no direct contact n vision
of Imam at Zahiri level.
Have you closely studied the Diawat n Pirantan actvity of different

stalwarts.The Dai did not established strict monetary obligations,whilst
Pir wrote length n length on it and increased by 25% in poor regions of India. He knew that Imam and his directions would take over on that issue.
Did you observed the back ground of Salman Faras N Nasir Khusraw.
They were both Marfati momins n came from Farsi background one as
Zorastrian n one as 12er.( any matching done thru their dates)

One would never know it is was soul of Salman re lived to serve again at that great magnitude.

Sufi with Noorani Hidayat do need any periodic or landmark sermons
to follow or uphold they are as living Farmans in eyes of Ali at Marifat level.

Even in recent times is the likes of Corbin n Anne Marie Schimel have done Baatin Interpretation of Ismaili works.as they understood the Baatin

While we Ismails are are still looking Imam at Zahiri level and trying to
find exotic arabic word that a entity par excellence should have known before preaching.

AAP TO ABUALI KI AUDIO CASSETE KE CHAKKAR ME KHUD GHAN CHAKKAR
BAN GAYE HO.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no clue what is the reference to Abuali in your post. he was a great missionary and a great Dai.

He was not infallible and I agreed with him on many issues and I also disagreed with many issues. He was not my mentor.

Why bring him into the discussion all the time. I can't understand why he is so disturbing to you nor do I think think anyone here is interested in your understanding (or lack of it) of what Abuali said or thought. let him rest in peace.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Nuseri...Zahir and batin both are important. Remember batin can not exist without Zahir. We believe in Imam that is Zahir (Present) with us Physically. We perform Zahiri practices...What is jura, chaanta, dua (though they have deep esoteric meanings) but they are zahir....So talking about batin is good but you can altogether delete Zahir...
And always remember if you change Zahir so batin will be changed. Manipulating words can result in entire different meanings. Words are really powerful


Last edited by star_munir on Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total
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star_munir



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Admin,
I would be grateful if you answer these questions. As you mentioned that Ismailia Association of Canada was strongly against editing of Ginans, do they still hold the same view point at current or not? As per your understanding and opinion why most of the ITREB, following footsteps of Pakistan and India allowed editing of Ginans?
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Admin



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What can I tell. Nowadays people are also editing Farmans and saying that Hazar Imam thinks in French and speaks in English and therefore they have to edit. What we hear directly from Hazar Imam is changed to say something different and send back to us re-interpreted by people who feel they know a better English.

In front of Jamat, they call the Imam respectfully as "Bapa" but when in front of the Imam, they contradict him hin the most revolting maner and between themselves they call him the "talio". Hazar Imam watch all this. he is just too Raheman and too Rahim. He forgives everyone. He knows these people will fall by themselves as rotten apples.

Those who do not have respect for the Hujat ul-Imam change the Ginans and those who do not have respect for Hazar Imam change His Farmans. The Jamat does not react and therefore more changes in both Ginans and Farmans. And therefore the Jamat is the loser at the end. That is called Divine Justice.

Hazar Imam says when Farmans have been changed, the Dai' have been hurt. Imam does not say the Jamat has been hurt. The Jamat does not care.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is difficult to understand how is it possible that leaders are afraid from jamat but not from Imam. Secondly, Imam can terminate any leader if He wish. Afterall Imam is the final and supreme authority. It is Imam who appoints leaders and not leaders who appoint Imam. Therefore, they can not control any thing as they wish in presence of Hazir and Moujood Imam. Leaders often justify by quoting words of Imam that He is well aware of what institutions are doing and they further clarify that from time to time they get guidance from Imam. You have mentioned that jamat is loser as it is accepting whatever leaders are saying. But if incase all leaders are wrong then Imam could send his guidance directly to jamat instead of giving it to leaders. For example, if Imam says in Jamat do NOT edit the Ginans do you think any leader or jamati member can dare to go against it. When Arabic dua was introduced, many leaders and jamati members were not happy. But because of farman of Imam, jamat obeyed it and they stopped saying Asal Dua composed by Pir Sadardin. Again leaders are appointed by Imam and He can terminate them also.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What can I tell. Nowadays people are also editing Farmans and saying that Hazar Imam thinks in French and speaks in English and therefore they have to edit. What we hear directly from Hazar Imam is changed to say something different and send back to us re-interpreted by people who feel they know a better English.

Very interesting information for me Admin, be honest with you I was not aware about this changing !!!
What will be next in changing movements? 1st it was ginans/granths and second now a days in Farmans of MHI what will be third changing movements?

Quote:
Therefore, they can not control any thing as they wish in presence of Hazir and Moujood Imam.


They (leaders) will find another way to make Jamat unaware of Imam's farmans!I think we can not blame each and every leaders who made changes or hiding the real farmans of hazar Imam, in pat there were some honest khidmatgar who used to pass whatever Imam convey to his jamats, they didn't makes any changes at all! period. so I personally believes that there may be some honest jamati leaders who may not like changes in Ginans and Farmans.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:

Very interesting information for me Admin, be honest with you I was not aware about this changing !!!


For example 1994 London, UK where Hazar Imam made 2 general farmans (Didar and Darbar) and there were more than 100 changes when those 2 farmans were released to the Jamat. I myself compared the tape with the "official" transcript and was horrified.

Then again, this happens all the time. You may have heard in G.J. Imam said in London that he tells leaders but he is not sure the leaders tell the Jamat. The whole sentence was removed in the released version. In October 2000 Karachi Farman, the whole paragraph on 72 sects of Islam was removed from the Farman and replaced with some reference to pluralism. etc.. So when people do not respect even the Farmans, how will they respect the Ginans?
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad:
As i said earlier that we are all Haqiqati members of the forum are Nuseri.
Nuseri was a clan/tribe and not an individual person.

In those time Asabs(leaders) around H.Ali branded Nuseri of being a stubborn n disobedient Tariqati for his conviction of H.Ali and his utterance.
Nevetheless He proved his Haqiqat n was praised n endorsed by many Imams.

So let leaders do their job.ALI knows everything.

We should not try to micro monitor the words of MHI.

For example if any eminent uses the word 'Shariat'. Somebody may purposely mis interpret it

Then in country with those primitive laws can thru their court
of law(flaw) can send summons to that person to appear in the court of law in their country and even harass n arrest that person upon arrival or later.
They can create legal nightmare for non issues.

Official Ex Parte Death sentence are issued in many Shariati countries
on a author called Salman Rudhsie ( despite being not a citizen of that country) for publishing a particular novel.

Asabo ki Ali ki Tariqat per chord do.

Hume to Ali ki Haqiqat ki khush nasabi hai.

GILA GIBAT BANDH KARO
AB TO SIRF ALI ALI KARO
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star_munir



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is mentioned in Ginan that people will discard traditions:
“The right Guru’s Farman will not be heeded and everyone will do as they please including not giving dasond and discarding their religious traditions.” (Moman Chetamni by Syed Imam Shah, Paath 53)
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It appears that there is gap in the information that we have. Just like earlier there was difference in Sajdahs in Pak and Africa. Later the matter was resolved and now there is similar sajdah every where.
Admin shared that with regards to changes in Ginans, Ismailia association for Canada highly opposed it and admin will share report of it. However, Ismailia association of Pak did not agree with that of Canada. The question that now comes in my mind is was there any verdict given by Imam on this issue after the report sent by Ismaili Association for Canada. Is there any documentation of it available?
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:
Ya Ali Madad:
As i said earlier that we are all Haqiqati members of the forum are Nuseri.
Nuseri was a clan/tribe and not an individual person.

In those time Asabs(leaders) around H.Ali branded Nuseri of being a stubborn n disobedient Tariqati for his conviction of H.Ali and his utterance.
Nevetheless He proved his Haqiqat n was praised n endorsed by many Imams.

So let leaders do their job.ALI knows everything.

We should not try to micro monitor the words of MHI.


For example if any eminent uses the word 'Shariat'. Somebody may purposely mis interpret it

Then in country with those primitive laws can thru their court
of law(flaw) can send summons to that person to appear in the court of law in their country and even harass n arrest that person upon arrival or later.
They can create legal nightmare for non issues.

Official Ex Parte Death sentence are issued in many Shariati countries
on a author called Salman Rudhsie ( despite being not a citizen of that country) for publishing a particular novel.

Asabo ki Ali ki Tariqat per chord do.

Hume to Ali ki Haqiqat ki khush nasabi hai.

GILA GIBAT BANDH KARO
AB TO SIRF ALI ALI KARO


Its true that Nuseri is a clan..although the one referred by Imam was the person. It would be wrong to categorized the clan of Nuseri as being haqiqati. It is important to understand the difference between nuseri clan and Ismailis..In past there have been different conflicts between Syrian Ismailis and Nuseris.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali madad:

I am aware of that.

What I meant here was that every Haqiqati must identify/feel or inspire to be like Nuseri.

During the time of H.Ali the clan which lived in those time had absolute FAITH in Ali.

The clan word was used to 'feel good' as few of the readers have assumed

that I have taken the sole franchise of that name.

This was inspire that there were many Nuseris present in the time of H.Ali.
If I were to say you are like 'Nuseri.'

Does that make my statement null n void because there cant be two or more Nuseris.

Some time too much academics tries to undermine the essence at Zahiri level.
Possessing a Data and Imaan can two different things many a times.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Ali Asani, the team of Lalji Devraj had to burry 3500 manuscripts of Ginans, which they had used as the bases for their edition. According to Ali Asani, about 300 Ginans were not included in the official corpus because the contents were inappropriate for the direction in which Khoja Ismaili identity was evolving.

Any comments or view points on it???
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 6063

PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He is basing his assumption from Ivanow who wrote that the 6 books of Ginans published by Mukhi Lalji Devraj were based on 3,500 manuscripts collected at that time. I am not sure where he is getting all his other funny ideas but I would certainly not trust blindly his scholarly capacity in the field of Ginans.

Most of that stock of manuscripts was put in a safe room in Mumbay for a long time but the manuscripts were mostly very old, eaten and decayed and were probably disposed off at some point in time as their content was safe with the publications in Khojki script.
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star_munir



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Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much for the clarification.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad.
I observed that changes were very healthy in Ginans.
I do wish some could happen more.
for example.
the qasida
Dum hume ALI ALI.
It just takes one high platform.
there is matching verse in one of the Ginans
'Sami ne japo Saas o Saas".

During those time word sami was need of the hour.If the word Sami
is changed to ALI.it would sound more enriching inspite of essence of both being the same.
As ginan are part of traditions being subject to minor modification by Imamat.
Why this Ginan was left out for modification.
"right dialing is very important"
and via code dailing can be slower at times.
Does this message reaches to concerned person at Tariqa board,who may be sly readers of the forum.
I am making a humble but true observation and not criticizing the Ginans.

Please give your observation in healthy spirit.
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