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Changes in the Ginans
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No_problem



Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: let make it clear. Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
It seems to me, this topic getting in confusion aproach . below are some clerification from me:-
1, Pir and Imam are two different authorities.
2, Both should be from AHLE-BAIT family.
3, Both should be present on earth all the time.
4, Pirs always appointed by Imam of the time.
5, There were some pirs in past who were not granted "PIRATAN" from
Imam of their time but their Ginans are still spoken in Jamat Khanas.
These type pirs usally call SYED.
6, During the time of Imam Mustansiribillah and after Pir Tajdin a book
name "PANDIYATE JAWAMARDI" written by Imam Mustansiribillah was
Ismaili pir.
7, PIR is persian word and it means, old respectable/reputable person.
8. There is no 'Pir' word in Arabic language, because there is no " P" letter
in Arabic alphabet. You can use Al-Mustwad instead of Pir.
9, In Khoja tradition they believe that pir is apeareance from Lord
Brahma, and Imam's apeareace is from Lord Vishnu. There are too
many Ginans on this topic in Gujarati, Khojki and other Indo languages
for above reference.
10,Pir Sabzali and Mukhi Ismail Gangji received pir title after their death.
but they both were not form AHLE-Bait family, they received Pir title
because of their excellent Khidmat of Jamat and Imam.
11, There are big differences between QASIDA and GINANS.Ginans cover
almost all the fields and are loded with RUHANIAYAT, Qasida is Praise
of Allah.
12, There is a book in gujarati language which is now available ''PIR
PADHARYA AAPNE DWAR" written by wellknown missionary ALIBHAI
NANJI. In this book you can find history of our 50 pirs, list of the
ginans written by each pirs, their year of birth death. MOZIZA e.t.c. I
would recommend every one who know Gujarati, must have this book
in their library.


I think some of the points in the above post are not accurate.

It is indeed, Pir and Imam are 2 different concepts and the fundamental and central principle in Ismaili Tariqah is the continuous presence of the Imam of the time.

In Arabic the word Pir is not used, however, the reason is not because of the non-existence of the letter "P"! Actually in Arabic the letter "B" is used for both "B" and "P" so the non-existence of "P" is not a problem. The actual reason is because there were no people called Pirs in Arabic Ismaili tradition however there were Dais, Hujjas, Imam Mustawdah, etc.

Imam Mustawdah means a person who is not Imam of the time but a person who may be known to some people as the Imam so that to protect the real Imam at times when the security of the Imam was not guaranteed.

There were some Dais who played significant roles in Ismaili history and they are called in Arabic with titles such as Dais or Hujjas. For example, Qadi Numan, Kermani, Sijistani, Ibn Hawshab, Abu Abdullah Al-Shi'i, Hassan Sabbah, Rashid din Sinan, Nassir Khusro, Al-Haj Khudr, etc. They have done distinguished work in our history but they have not been known as Pirs in Arabic heritage.

Most of those Dais played roles similar to the Pirs of the Indian subcontinent. For example Ibn Hawshab converted large population in Yemen to the Ismaili faith, Abu Abdullah al-Shi'i did similar in North Africa, and Nassir Khusro in Central Asia, etc. Also most of them left works in Ismaili faith either in the form of Qasida or text books or both.

I notice from the list of 50 Pirs mentioned in a previous post that there were only 6 Pirs before Pir Satgur Noor which would means that a Pir was not present at all times, contrary to the Imam of the time who is ever present.

Also it is important to mention that the difference between Ginan and Qasida is not as you mentioned for Qasidas cover many topics and not only praise of Allah. The Qasidas focus on the love and praise of the Imam of the time as well as spirituality and some Arabic and Farsi Qasidas have been written by Imams or Imam's brother, etc. To my best knowledge Hazar Imam has not distinguished between Qasidas and Ginans.

Thank you.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: let make it clear. Reply with quote

No_problem wrote:
agakhani wrote:
It seems to me, this topic getting in confusion aproach . below are some clerification from me:-
1, Pir and Imam are two different authorities.
2, Both should be from AHLE-BAIT family.
3, Both should be present on earth all the time.
4, Pirs always appointed by Imam of the time.
5, There were some pirs in past who were not granted "PIRATAN" from
Imam of their time but their Ginans are still spoken in Jamat Khanas.
These type pirs usally call SYED.
6, During the time of Imam Mustansiribillah and after Pir Tajdin a book
name "PANDIYATE JAWAMARDI" written by Imam Mustansiribillah was
Ismaili pir.
7, PIR is persian word and it means, old respectable/reputable person.
8. There is no 'Pir' word in Arabic language, because there is no " P" letter
in Arabic alphabet. You can use Al-Mustwad instead of Pir.
9, In Khoja tradition they believe that pir is apeareance from Lord
Brahma, and Imam's apeareace is from Lord Vishnu. There are too
many Ginans on this topic in Gujarati, Khojki and other Indo languages
for above reference.
10,Pir Sabzali and Mukhi Ismail Gangji received pir title after their death.
but they both were not form AHLE-Bait family, they received Pir title
because of their excellent Khidmat of Jamat and Imam.
11, There are big differences between QASIDA and GINANS.Ginans cover
almost all the fields and are loded with RUHANIAYAT, Qasida is Praise
of Allah.
12, There is a book in gujarati language which is now available ''PIR
PADHARYA AAPNE DWAR" written by wellknown missionary ALIBHAI
NANJI. In this book you can find history of our 50 pirs, list of the
ginans written by each pirs, their year of birth death. MOZIZA e.t.c. I
would recommend every one who know Gujarati, must have this book
in their library.


I think some of the points in the above post are not accurate.

It is indeed, Pir and Imam are 2 different concepts and the fundamental and central principle in Ismaili Tariqah is the continuous presence of the Imam of the time.

In Arabic the word Pir is not used, however, the reason is not because of the non-existence of the letter "P"! Actually in Arabic the letter "B" is used for both "B" and "P" so the non-existence of "P" is not a problem. The actual reason is because there were no people called Pirs in Arabic Ismaili tradition however there were Dais, Hujjas, Imam Mustawdah, etc.

Imam Mustawdah means a person who is not Imam of the time but a person who may be known to some people as the Imam so that to protect the real Imam at times when the security of the Imam was not guaranteed.

There were some Dais who played significant roles in Ismaili history and they are called in Arabic with titles such as Dais or Hujjas. For example, Qadi Numan, Kermani, Sijistani, Ibn Hawshab, Abu Abdullah Al-Shi'i, Hassan Sabbah, Rashid din Sinan, Nassir Khusro, Al-Haj Khudr, etc. They have done distinguished work in our history but they have not been known as Pirs in Arabic heritage.

Most of those Dais played roles similar to the Pirs of the Indian subcontinent. For example Ibn Hawshab converted large population in Yemen to the Ismaili faith, Abu Abdullah al-Shi'i did similar in North Africa, and Nassir Khusro in Central Asia, etc. Also most of them left works in Ismaili faith either in the form of Qasida or text books or both.

I notice from the list of 50 Pirs mentioned in a previous post that there were only 6 Pirs before Pir Satgur Noor which would means that a Pir was not present at all times, contrary to the Imam of the time who is ever present.

Also it is important to mention that the difference between Ginan and Qasida is not as you mentioned for Qasidas cover many topics and not only praise of Allah. The Qasidas focus on the love and praise of the Imam of the time as well as spirituality and some Arabic and Farsi Qasidas have been written by Imams or Imam's brother, etc. To my best knowledge Hazar Imam has not distinguished between Qasidas and Ginans.

Thank you.


Actually there is a list of 50 pirs - it has been posted on this topic - if you'd go back and read - you'd discover the names of all 50 pirs.

Shams
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20042

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: let make it clear. Reply with quote

No_problem wrote:


I notice from the list of 50 Pirs mentioned in a previous post that there were only 6 Pirs before Pir Satgur Noor which would means that a Pir was not present at all times, contrary to the Imam of the time who is ever present.



The Light of Piratan is always present. Sometimes it is combined in the Imam and at other times it expresses itself in a separate person. Pir Hasan Kabideen who is the bearer of the Light mentions about his existence in other Yugas in the verses of the Anant Akhado below.

Aashaajee Jug kartaa maanhe ek kalaa rachaayaa
tees maanhe ham-kun jaanno jee
beejaa jug maanhe Veejeshthann kaheeyen
sobee ham avtaar........................Haree anant..374

Oh Lord During the era of Kerta the Lord created a manifestation
I(Pir Hassan Kabirdin) was that manifestation (as Gur
Brahma)
In the Treta Jug the manifestation was called
Veejeshthann
even that was my manifestation
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Jug Dwaapur maanhe Veedur-vyaas kaheeyen
sobee ham-kun jaanno jee
Kal-jug maanhe ham-hi jaanno
sohee Rasul naam........................Haree anant..375

Oh Lord In the Dwaapur Jug the name of the manifestation of Gur
Brahma was Veedur-vyaas
Even He was our form
In the Kal-jug we are the manifestation of Gur Brahma
and it is the same light of the Messenger(Prophet
Muhammed)
Haree You are eternal...

Veedur Vyaas composed the Gita.

In a verse of the Ginan Sab Gat Sami Maro Bharpur Betthaa Pir Sadardeen says:

ejee pahele dha(n)dhukaar maa(n)he nabee muhammed mustaphaa sohee guru ja(m)pudeep maa(n)he aayaa ek jeeyo..............20

O momins: In the beginning and in the void, Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide (Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:17 am    Post subject: Re: let make it clear. Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:
No_problem wrote:
agakhani wrote:
It seems to me, this topic getting in confusion aproach . below are some clerification from me:-
1, Pir and Imam are two different authorities.
2, Both should be from AHLE-BAIT family.
3, Both should be present on earth all the time.
4, Pirs always appointed by Imam of the time.
5, There were some pirs in past who were not granted "PIRATAN" from
Imam of their time but their Ginans are still spoken in Jamat Khanas.
These type pirs usally call SYED.
6, During the time of Imam Mustansiribillah and after Pir Tajdin a book
name "PANDIYATE JAWAMARDI" written by Imam Mustansiribillah was
Ismaili pir.
7, PIR is persian word and it means, old respectable/reputable person.
8. There is no 'Pir' word in Arabic language, because there is no " P" letter
in Arabic alphabet. You can use Al-Mustwad instead of Pir.
9, In Khoja tradition they believe that pir is apeareance from Lord
Brahma, and Imam's apeareace is from Lord Vishnu. There are too
many Ginans on this topic in Gujarati, Khojki and other Indo languages
for above reference.
10,Pir Sabzali and Mukhi Ismail Gangji received pir title after their death.
but they both were not form AHLE-Bait family, they received Pir title
because of their excellent Khidmat of Jamat and Imam.
11, There are big differences between QASIDA and GINANS.Ginans cover
almost all the fields and are loded with RUHANIAYAT, Qasida is Praise
of Allah.
12, There is a book in gujarati language which is now available ''PIR
PADHARYA AAPNE DWAR" written by wellknown missionary ALIBHAI
NANJI. In this book you can find history of our 50 pirs, list of the
ginans written by each pirs, their year of birth death. MOZIZA e.t.c. I
would recommend every one who know Gujarati, must have this book
in their library.


I think some of the points in the above post are not accurate.

It is indeed, Pir and Imam are 2 different concepts and the fundamental and central principle in Ismaili Tariqah is the continuous presence of the Imam of the time.

In Arabic the word Pir is not used, however, the reason is not because of the non-existence of the letter "P"! Actually in Arabic the letter "B" is used for both "B" and "P" so the non-existence of "P" is not a problem. The actual reason is because there were no people called Pirs in Arabic Ismaili tradition however there were Dais, Hujjas, Imam Mustawdah, etc.

Imam Mustawdah means a person who is not Imam of the time but a person who may be known to some people as the Imam so that to protect the real Imam at times when the security of the Imam was not guaranteed.

There were some Dais who played significant roles in Ismaili history and they are called in Arabic with titles such as Dais or Hujjas. For example, Qadi Numan, Kermani, Sijistani, Ibn Hawshab, Abu Abdullah Al-Shi'i, Hassan Sabbah, Rashid din Sinan, Nassir Khusro, Al-Haj Khudr, etc. They have done distinguished work in our history but they have not been known as Pirs in Arabic heritage.

Most of those Dais played roles similar to the Pirs of the Indian subcontinent. For example Ibn Hawshab converted large population in Yemen to the Ismaili faith, Abu Abdullah al-Shi'i did similar in North Africa, and Nassir Khusro in Central Asia, etc. Also most of them left works in Ismaili faith either in the form of Qasida or text books or both.

I notice from the list of 50 Pirs mentioned in a previous post that there were only 6 Pirs before Pir Satgur Noor which would means that a Pir was not present at all times, contrary to the Imam of the time who is ever present.

Also it is important to mention that the difference between Ginan and Qasida is not as you mentioned for Qasidas cover many topics and not only praise of Allah. The Qasidas focus on the love and praise of the Imam of the time as well as spirituality and some Arabic and Farsi Qasidas have been written by Imams or Imam's brother, etc. To my best knowledge Hazar Imam has not distinguished between Qasidas and Ginans.

Thank you.


Actually there is a list of 50 pirs - it has been posted on this topic - if you'd go back and read - you'd discover the names of all 50 pirs.

Shams

NO_PROBLEM,
YOUR CORRECTIONS ARE WELL NOTED FROM MY SIDE.
The above clerification was taken from many books and waez it may be not accurate as you mention.
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No_problem



Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: let make it clear. Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:


Actually there is a list of 50 pirs - it has been posted on this topic - if you'd go back and read - you'd discover the names of all 50 pirs.

Shams


Yes this is the list I mentioned. The confusion comes from the fact that the list doesn't seem logical. For example, there is a period of some 700-800 years between the first and 6th Pirs (in the same period there were about 26 Imams) and also the list shows that 44 Pirs lived in the last 600-700 years (23 Imams lived in this period). So this list doesn't seem accurate.


kmaherali wrote:


The Light of Piratan is always present. Sometimes it is combined in the Imam and at other times it expresses itself in a separate person. Pir Hasan Kabideen who is the bearer of the Light mentions about his existence in other Yugas in the verses of the Anant Akhado below.

Aashaajee Jug kartaa maanhe ek kalaa rachaayaa
tees maanhe ham-kun jaanno jee
beejaa jug maanhe Veejeshthann kaheeyen
sobee ham avtaar........................Haree anant..374

Oh Lord During the era of Kerta the Lord created a manifestation
I(Pir Hassan Kabirdin) was that manifestation (as Gur
Brahma)
In the Treta Jug the manifestation was called
Veejeshthann
even that was my manifestation
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Jug Dwaapur maanhe Veedur-vyaas kaheeyen
sobee ham-kun jaanno jee
Kal-jug maanhe ham-hi jaanno
sohee Rasul naam........................Haree anant..375

Oh Lord In the Dwaapur Jug the name of the manifestation of Gur
Brahma was Veedur-vyaas
Even He was our form
In the Kal-jug we are the manifestation of Gur Brahma
and it is the same light of the Messenger(Prophet
Muhammed)
Haree You are eternal...

Veedur Vyaas composed the Gita.

In a verse of the Ginan Sab Gat Sami Maro Bharpur Betthaa Pir Sadardeen says:

ejee pahele dha(n)dhukaar maa(n)he nabee muhammed mustaphaa sohee guru ja(m)pudeep maa(n)he aayaa ek jeeyo..............20

O momins: In the beginning and in the void, Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide (Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.


I guess Pir Hasan Kabideen meant existence of the position of Pir rather than himself (like we say all Imams are same Noor).

The translation of the first Ginan doesn't seem to be accurate. For example Gur Brahma is not mentioned in the Ginan.

The translation of the Ginan of Pir Sadardin, doesn't seem to be accurate as the Indian Subcontinent is not mentioned and he sound to have meant the Prophet rather than the Pir. Please forgive my poor Gujarati if my comments are wrong.

Iím not trying to argue but trying to understand the concept. Iíve the utmost respect and love for the Pirs and in particular Iím fascinated by story and Ginans of Pir Sadardin who is such a great personality in our history.

Thank you.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:29 pm    Post subject: Re: let make it clear. Reply with quote

No_problem wrote:
ShamsB wrote:


Actually there is a list of 50 pirs - it has been posted on this topic - if you'd go back and read - you'd discover the names of all 50 pirs.

Shams


Yes this is the list I mentioned. The confusion comes from the fact that the list doesn't seem logical. For example, there is a period of some 700-800 years between the first and 6th Pirs (in the same period there were about 26 Imams) and also the list shows that 44 Pirs lived in the last 600-700 years (23 Imams lived in this period). So this list doesn't seem accurate.


kmaherali wrote:


The Light of Piratan is always present. Sometimes it is combined in the Imam and at other times it expresses itself in a separate person. Pir Hasan Kabideen who is the bearer of the Light mentions about his existence in other Yugas in the verses of the Anant Akhado below.

Aashaajee Jug kartaa maanhe ek kalaa rachaayaa
tees maanhe ham-kun jaanno jee
beejaa jug maanhe Veejeshthann kaheeyen
sobee ham avtaar........................Haree anant..374

Oh Lord During the era of Kerta the Lord created a manifestation
I(Pir Hassan Kabirdin) was that manifestation (as Gur
Brahma)
In the Treta Jug the manifestation was called
Veejeshthann
even that was my manifestation
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Jug Dwaapur maanhe Veedur-vyaas kaheeyen
sobee ham-kun jaanno jee
Kal-jug maanhe ham-hi jaanno
sohee Rasul naam........................Haree anant..375

Oh Lord In the Dwaapur Jug the name of the manifestation of Gur
Brahma was Veedur-vyaas
Even He was our form
In the Kal-jug we are the manifestation of Gur Brahma
and it is the same light of the Messenger(Prophet
Muhammed)
Haree You are eternal...

Veedur Vyaas composed the Gita.

In a verse of the Ginan Sab Gat Sami Maro Bharpur Betthaa Pir Sadardeen says:

ejee pahele dha(n)dhukaar maa(n)he nabee muhammed mustaphaa sohee guru ja(m)pudeep maa(n)he aayaa ek jeeyo..............20

O momins: In the beginning and in the void, Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide (Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.


I guess Pir Hasan Kabideen meant existence of the position of Pir rather than himself (like we say all Imams are same Noor).

The translation of the first Ginan doesn't seem to be accurate. For example Gur Brahma is not mentioned in the Ginan.

The translation of the Ginan of Pir Sadardin, doesn't seem to be accurate as the Indian Subcontinent is not mentioned and he sound to have meant the Prophet rather than the Pir. Please forgive my poor Gujarati if my comments are wrong.

Iím not trying to argue but trying to understand the concept. Iíve the utmost respect and love for the Pirs and in particular Iím fascinated by story and Ginans of Pir Sadardin who is such a great personality in our history.

Thank you.


So in those periods - the Imams played the role of the Shah and Pir - you might want to read Ismaili History by AbuAli or get your hands on a copy of the old dua -that has a comprehensive list of the pirs.

The original words in the ginans did have Guru Brahma - i'd recommend rereading all the posts on this topic and you'll get answers to your questions.

Shams
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the year of publication of book ''PIR
PADHARYA AAPNE DWAR" ? Is there detailed history of all Pirs in this book?
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What is the year of publication of book ''PIR
PADHARYA AAPNE DWAR" ? Is there detailed history of all Pirs in this book?


Yes, it contain detail history of our 50 pirs including current pir Shah Karim and also INDRA IMAMDIN ( as you mention in one of your recent post) not only this but it has also the history other Syeds and Sadats who were not our appointed pirs but who has composed ginans like Syed ImamShah,Syed Noor Mohd Shah, Syed Gulmali Shah, Imam Begum and many more and that is why this book is so important.
I have latest version called 'Golden Jubilee edition' of PIR PADHARYA AAPNE DWAR 1-2 it was published in year 2007 but original and first publication year of this book was 1986.

FYI:- This book ( may be older version) also available in Garden Jamat Khana library borrow from there if you do not want to purchase it because it is a old book and I think it may be not available in Pakistan. Here in USA it is still available, please let me know if you interested to purchase
( I am not a book seller) it is a great book it has already many editions and every family should have it.


Last edited by agakhani on Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot for information. I will try to look for the book. If it will not be available than, I will email you and let you know.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In 1891 Farman of Zanjbar Imam said not to recite about hinduism in Ginans, it was for that time when you were hindus Now leave 9 Avtars and talk about Ali...
I wish to read/know proper extract of Imam SMS above farman,only then I may form my opinion on this subject.Please anyone can give few line extract of this Farman?
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5970

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Farman said leave the 9 Avtars and concentrate on the 10th Avatar.

Basically the Farman says the same things that Pirs said in all their Ginans and Grants.

This is why Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah said that Farmans and Ginans are the same and also that if we had studied properly the Ginans he would not have needed to make these Farmans.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20042

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:
In 1891 Farman of Zanjbar Imam said not to recite about hinduism in Ginans, it was for that time when you were hindus Now leave 9 Avtars and talk about Ali...
I wish to read/know proper extract of Imam SMS above farman,only then I may form my opinion on this subject.Please anyone can give few line extract of this Farman?

"It is not appropriate that you should discuss matters pertaining to Hinduism as an aspect of knowledge. When you were Hindus, Pir Sadardin showed you the way. That time has now gone.

Now you should praise Mowla and his progeny. Read about the praises of HazarImam. Now abandon 9 manifestations ( nav avtar). Read about the praises of the 10th manifestation which is comprised of our forefathers. Read the Ginans wherein the 10th manifestation is explained."
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Admin:
Devotional literature is not same as Imam's Farman.

In regards to Hazar Imam's guidance of 1961 n later on Ginans and Qasidas.

ISHQ GINAN PEE.MAAN PIRO PAR
SHAYAD SHAQUE YA NARAZGI ALI AUR USKE ASABO PAR.
YEH SHAYAD MOMIN KI DHARMIK BHAVNA HO SAKTI HAI
USKA IMAAN NAHI?
IMAAN AISA RAKHO 'SIRF ALI ALI AUR EK HOJA ALI ALI'
HUKAM ALI KA HO AUR HAMARA JAWAB HO AMEEN.

As for Imam SMS Farman of 1898:

DEVI DEVTA GUFA PARVAT AUR PECHLE NAV AVAATAR
KE CHAKKER MEE, SAMBHALO KE KAHI AAP KI ATMA LAKH CHORIYASI
CHAKKER ME NAA AAJA WEH.
BANDH KARO YE BANIYE KI DUKAN AUR
KHOL DO ALI ALI SUPER MARKET.OFFLINE YA ONLINE.

Taking 360 different names of God is like asking the moon
for sunlight and taking ALI's name is like asking the sun for
sunlight.

ALI KO PYAAR KARO.ALI KO KHUSH KARO.
KABHI BHI ALI KO NARAZ MUT KARO
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I am not forgetting that Sultan Mohammad Shah made one farman on
DAS AVATAR; 10 INCARNATIONS (not exact texts of farman as SMS made but it was some like this):- every one should know about 10 incarnations and instructed to learn it as Islamic principals
in this farman Mowla insisted us to to know more about 10 incarnations if it has some thing wrong to know about Das avatar then he would not have made this farman'
Imam Hakim once declared himself in front ofcrowd that he is 10 incarnation!! where no Hindus were present in that crowd.

In my opinion it is nothing wrong to know more about 9 incarnations specially for those readers who have interest to learn more about different religions then they must need to read and know about 10 incarnations AFTER ALL INCARNATION IS A THEORY OF EVOLUTION.
FYI:- Sultan Mohammed Shah once declared him self as a 'Krishna' in Mathura and told that I had played RAAS - GARBAS many times with Gopis in this place
that proves a lot i.e.that incarnations were true and real.


Last edited by agakhani on Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:03 am, edited 2 times in total
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star_munir



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:
To Admin:
Devotional literature is not same as Imam's Farman.

In regards to Hazar Imam's guidance of 1961 n later on Ginans and Qasidas.

ISHQ GINAN PEE.MAAN PIRO PAR
SHAYAD SHAQUE YA NARAZGI ALI AUR USKE ASABO PAR.
YEH SHAYAD MOMIN KI DHARMIK BHAVNA HO SAKTI HAI
USKA IMAAN NAHI?
IMAAN AISA RAKHO 'SIRF ALI ALI AUR EK HOJA ALI ALI'
HUKAM ALI KA HO AUR HAMARA JAWAB HO AMEEN.

As for Imam SMS Farman of 1898:

DEVI DEVTA GUFA PARVAT AUR PECHLE NAV AVAATAR
KE CHAKKER MEE, SAMBHALO KE KAHI AAP KI ATMA LAKH CHORIYASI
CHAKKER ME NAA AAJA WEH.
BANDH KARO YE BANIYE KI DUKAN AUR
KHOL DO ALI ALI SUPER MARKET.OFFLINE YA ONLINE.

Taking 360 different names of God is like asking the moon
for sunlight and taking ALI's name is like asking the sun for
sunlight.

ALI KO PYAAR KARO.ALI KO KHUSH KARO.
KABHI BHI ALI KO NARAZ MUT KARO


Farmans are like Ginans, full of wisdom and divine knowledge. Secondly, Hindus do not worship 360 gods.

I think few lines of Farman quoted, can not help to develop understanding on this topic. You will need to read this complete Farman and see das avtar is not the only thing quoted by Imam in that particular farman, there were different other aspects mentioned by Him. Read that to understand the context.
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star_munir



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
If I am not forgetting that Sultan Mohammad Shah made one farman on
DAS AVATAR; 10 INCARNATIONS (not exact texts of farman as SMS made but it was some like this):- every one should know about 10 incarnations and instructed to learn it as Islamic principals
in this farman Mowla insisted us to to know more about 10 incarnations if it has some thing wrong to know about Das avatar then he would not have made this farman'
Imam Hakim once declared himself in front ofcrowd that he is 10 incarnation!! where no Hindus were present in that crowd.

In my opinion it is nothing wrong to know more about 9 incarnations and for those readers who has interest to learn more about different religions then they should know 10 incarnations.


According to Karim Maherali, Once Mowlana Hazir Imam was being told by Alwaez Amlani (who was granted an audience with the Imam) that we are being accused of being Hindus because of the Ginanic references to Hindu ideas. To which Hazir Imam said that Moses is mentioned in Quran, Jesus is mentioned in Quran, and we do not become Jews or Christians as a result.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hindus do not worship 360 gods.

That may be right but if you study Hinduism then you find that Hindu religion have many Devi Devtas, their some devtas are not real but just made up by imagination like their " Santoshi Ma" never born on this earth but she is worshipped. 33 karor devtas are mentioned in Hindu scriptures and it is also quoted in our holy ginans as well.
Chalo man lete hai ki; not 360 but they have many devi devatas that is for sure, Hindu worshipping almost every things starting from snakes, trees, plants, sun, moon, fire and don't surprise even living human being!! they already made a temple of filmi star Amitabh Bacchan and some devotee worshipping him daily;even though he claimed that he is a just ordinary human being.
Hindu religion have three main devas 1, Brahma 2, Vishnu and 3, Mahesh the remaining are angels.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To say that Amitabh Bhachan is recognised as a god by hinduism because some believe in him as such is far fetch. Krishan or Rama never stated that Amitabh Bachan has to be considered as a God. Nor did we read this in the Gita.

Gods in Hinduism are just forces of the nature, represented by symbols which may look human or not, it does not matter since all the gods (attributes) are iincorporate nside Krishna.

What you are saying is not different than a Hindu saying to other Hindu that there are 99 Gods in Islam and each are venerated by one or the other muslim under the name Khalak or raheman etc... this would be a ridicule concept isn't it. And Hindus may have called their angel of death as the Yumraj, some God of Death, so what is the difference. Don't Muslim have there own Angel of Death?

One should not consider as hinduism whatever hindus are writing about Hinduism, not more then one would consider as islam whatever Muslims are writing about their religion.
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star_munir



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
To say that Amitabh Bhachan is recognised as a god by hinduism because some believe in him as such is far fetch. Krishan or Rama never stated that Amitabh Bachan has to be considered as a God. Nor did we read this in the Gita.

Gods in Hinduism are just forces of the nature, represented by symbols which may look human or not, it does not matter since all the gods (attributes) are iincorporate nside Krishna.

What you are saying is not different than a Hindu saying to other Hindu that there are 99 Gods in Islam and each are venerated by one or the other muslim under the name Khalak or raheman etc... this would be a ridicule concept isn't it. And Hindus may have called their angel of death as the Yumraj, some God of Death, so what is the difference. Don't Muslim have there own Angel of Death?

One should not consider as hinduism whatever hindus are writing about Hinduism, not more then one would consider as islam whatever Muslims are writing about their religion.


Completely agree with you
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin,
You are mixing their (Hindu) deities with god even Hindus also believe that there is a only one God and he/she/it has no shape, it has no gender it is a just cosmic energy which is every where nobody can see it. But here in this thread we are talking about worshipping their different deities and it is not hidden that Hindus deities are many. I can count more than dozon.

About 99 God in Islam!!?? it really surprise me, be honest with you I never heard this sentence from any one else specially non Islamic buddy, whoever thing this way may be reffering about different names and attributes of Allah but in my opinion many peoples including Hindus also knows that considering more than one God in Islam is Shirk.

After studing Hinduism deeply and living almost 25 years in Hindu neighbourhood I found that Hindus are also consider some great living human being as a Devtas. if you read their religious literatures and studing Bhajans than you will definately find this word many times MANKHA DEV" "મનખા દેવ" MEANS "Human as a God". other words are Devatma, Punytma e.t.c which are also addressed to God and human being.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Muslims are mistaken when they accuse others of shirk when they also do shirk everyday by associating attributes to he who is above all else and above attribute. is this not in a way bringing God down to the level of human understanding? If this is the case, what is the difference betweeen hindus and muslims.

What is their diference with indus who worship some stones, many muslims do the same.

Mera Shah ko hindu na buje, musalman na ...
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zznoor



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
I think Muslims are mistaken when they accuse others of shirk when they also do shirk everyday by associating attributes to he who is above all else and above attribute. is this not in a way bringing God down to the level of human understanding? If this is the case, what is the difference betweeen hindus and muslims.

What is their diference with indus who worship some stones, many muslims do the same.

Mera Shah ko hindu na buje, musalman na ...


As a plain Muslim I fail to understand what is wrong with saying Allah has 99 attribute, that does not mean 99 Gods.

For example

Ar-Rahman means "most compassionate, the beneficent, the gracious"

For relevant Ayas using this attribute see †Q1:3, 17:110, 19:58,†
21:112, 27:30, 36:52, 50:33, 55:1, 59:22, 78:38

And

Al-Aliyy, meaning †The Most High
(not Hz Ali RA as Admin once posted)
For relevant Ayas using this attribute see Q 2:255, 4:34, 31:30, 42:4, 42:51


Please google "99 names of Allah"'for meaning of other attributes.

Also go to Quran translation with †comments such as Md. Asad's to read meaning of Ayas listed.

99 attributes †definitely does not mean Muslims worship 99 Gods.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
99 attributes definitely does not mean Muslims worship 99 Gods.


Absolutely right, and I wrote my concern above, I repeting here " About 99 God in Islam!!?? it really surprise me, be honest with you I never heard this sentence from any one else specially non Islamic buddy, whoever thing this way may be reffering about different names and attributes of Allah but in my opinion many peoples including Hindus also knows that considering more than one God in Islam is Shirk.

Quote:
What is their diference with indus who worship some stones, many muslims do the same.[/quote]

Admin,
You must be referring the 'Hazar e Aswad" a black stone in Kaaba , if yes then Muslim doesn't worship this stone but kiss it with respect because Prophet Mohammad also kissed it, in my opinion worshiping stone and kissing the stone with respect has big different ; kissing to stone is not shirk but as a Muslim worshiping stone is a deffinately shirk.
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star_munir



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aga Khani, its not the case of black stone. Many Muslims go and visit the shrines and prostrate there and pray there. Again its not limited to shrines. There are idols of "ego, wealth, fame" which are venerated.
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zznoor



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

.
Quote:
Abu Ali missionary said our Pirs were not Hindus but Aal -e-Rasool,Aulad -e-Ali and Nabi so do you think they will make any mistakes? If you think so therefore it means you have not "imaan" i.e, faith in your religion.

Abu Ali missionary said Are you afraid of muslims [Non ismaili muslims] ?


Majority of Muslims of all colors and tarikas do not know about their religion.
To insunate that Only non Ismali Muslims do not know about their religion is wrong

To claim that all "Aal -e-Rasool,Aulad -e-Ali and Nabi" are infallible would be wrong too.

There are thousands of Muslims claiming to be from progeny of Prophet. They are not infallible.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zznoor wrote:
.
There are thousands of Muslims claiming to be from progeny of Prophet. They are not infallible.


For once we agree. on this sentense.

I would say, not all from the progeny of the Prophet are infaillible but the Infaillibles after the time of the Prophet are all from the progeny of the Prophet and of Hazrat Ali.

As for me the only infailible I know today is the Pir and Imam of Ismailis, Noor Mowlana Shah Karim.

I know this statement is not easy to digest for the Shariatis.
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star_munir



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read minutes of Paris Conference as now they are available in heritage website. It mentions about categorization of Ginans and it publications. There is no guidance of publishing Ginans with Hindu elements mentioned there. So it appears, that such Ginans are not made available to jamat for recitation because of that reason. Also there were points related to sending Farmans to Imam for approval and seeking guidance regarding their publication.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a big debate on the matter between the Ismailia Association of that time as the Instructions of Hazar Imam at Paris Conference (1975) were mis-represented.

It was obvious that those who wanted the disappearance of the Ginans were drumming that the Indian vocabulary used in Ginans were "Hindu" elements. The condition that the Imam posed for any work to be identified as having "Hindu" elements was that after All Ismailia Association (now ITREB) agreed unanimously to this, the work should have been brought to the Imam for verification of the proposition. Something that the opponent of Ginans did not want to accept.

There were subsequent Conferences and Workshops where the Ginan subject was clarified. When I get the time, I will scan and put here the report by the Ismailia Association for Canada which will be very enlightening as to what Hazar Imam really said for the Paris Conference ans in particular that if anyone who thinks there were Hindu elements in Ginans, the Imam wanted to know why they were thinking that way and how they were defining "Hindu" elements.

Thanks for your patience.
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star_munir



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much admin for clarifications. I will wait to see the report by Ismailia Association for Canada. Thanks a lot
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Something that the opponent of Ginans did not want to accept.


I will love to know what Hazar Imam says about our wonderful ginans and the Hindu elements!

It is true that many Ismailis who think this way i.e. our ginas contains Hindu elements names of Hindu Devi Devtas and ginans are old e.t.c. therefore there is no need ginans at current time !! however their thinking is wrong, because they have not studied ginans deeply. but let me ask those peoples including some in this forum; SUN IS ALSO OLD I MEAN LOT MORE OLD THEN OUR GINANS WHY AREN'T YOU REFUSE TO TAKE ITS LIGHTS? SUN IS ALSO WAY OLD!! AND REFUSE TO ACCEPT OUR GINANS BECAUSE IT IS OLD?
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