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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Changes in the Ginans
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Changes in the Ginans
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19770

PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

star_munir wrote:
I think it is that Imam says to read das avtar in Ginans but not to believe in other false stories...;[from other sources]
Am I right or wrong ? as in this Farman also Imam told that all stories associated with Karbala and Imam Hussain are not completly correct. Its right that Imam Hussain was martyred but enemies not made insult of Ahl-e-Bayt...
YAM Munir
I am inclined to agree with you. Zanzibar at that time was very diverse and cosmopolitan and our Ismailis were subject to and influenced by a variety of story tellers, magicians etc.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19770

PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nagib wrote:
And if Pir Sadardin wrote the original wording but Jafferbhai is responsible for changing the wording, should we not change also the last verse to say boliya boliya master jafferbhay? That would be a nice recognition, wouldn't it icon_wink.gif
I hope you are referring to jafferbhai in a generic sense of an "intelligent" man and not a particular Jafferbhai.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mowla Ali Madad,

I am writing what I understood from the Farman of Imam on August 20, 1899 in Zanzibar.
Here I dont think that Imam is saying not to recite or read Ginans about das avtaar but not to believe in false stories asccociated with them as KmaherAli wrote English translation..I have this Farman in audio from what I heard...in Farman Imam said that..... hinduvo ni vatoo ilm maa parho cho tey wajabi nathi...dasva avtaar maa amara dada ni tareef parho. Ginan wacho, tema das avtaar no bayan chey tey wacho Qisa bayan maa jey magaj chey tey parho par tema beeji khoti watoo likhay li chey tey nahi parho.

Before this Imam also told that the story of Imam Hussain which we hear is not exactly correct as in Farman Imam told that "Ema Mullavo ni kaitlik banavat per chay."
Imam told that it is right that they martyred Imam Hussain but it is wrong that they made insult of Ahl-e-Bayat.

So now from this we can see that the history of Imam Hussain is not hundred percent correct than how could be stories asscocited with these 9 avtaars can be exactly correct or accurate. Like if any one will read it from begining he or she may find them scientifically incorrect as according to stories and legends the world is in ocean and water and was drown down in it so Hari take avtaar to save land and vedas etc.
But on the other hand we can find the truth here that it could be understood as per theory of Evolution. As Imam explained in mission conference that when all life on earth was in the form of fishes than Imam had to be in the form of fish to guide them.
There is also Farman to understand das avtaar from Islamic point of view and there is also waez of Alwaez Abu Ali on topic of das avtaar in which he explained it from Islamic and Scientific point of views.
Also at that period of time many Ismailis were unaware of meanings of Quran. So Sunni and Shia Mullah molvis used to misguide them so Imam in that Farman also told them clear not to follow them [Arabs and Moguls]
They themselves do not know anything, then what will they teach you? and to Follow the teachings of Pir Sadardin
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nagib



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
nagib wrote:
And if Pir Sadardin wrote the original wording but Jafferbhai is responsible for changing the wording, should we not change also the last verse to say boliya boliya master jafferbhay? That would be a nice recognition, wouldn t it icon_wink.gif
I hope you are referring to jafferbhai in a generic sense of an "intelligent" man and not a particular Jafferbhai.


Obviously, in the sense that one would use in English "Tom, Dick and Henry", as a generic name. Though -Jaffer- is good, I could have written Kassam bhay icon_wink.gif , I think there is also a farman that said if Jaffer did something, do not say Jaffer did, say that God allowed him to do... or something imilar...
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19770

PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nagib wrote:
Obviously, in the sense that o­ne would use in English "Tom, Dick and Henry", as a generic name. Though "Jaffer" is good, I could have written Kassam bhay icon_wink.gif , I think there is also a farman that said if Jaffer did something, don't say Jaffer did, say that God allowed him to do... or something imilar...
I was thinking perhaps you meant Jaffer as someone who thought himself better than the Pir and hence could change the words of the Ginan.
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kasamali



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

star_munir wrote:
In past I had posted views of Kamaluddin missionary on changings in Ginan in seprate topic ........
Now I am posting Views of Alwaez Zarina Kamaludin on topic of Ginan.
She said in her waez that .......Our Pir inorder to convince hindus said that there are avtars and Hari has come in His tenth avtar. In 1961 Imam made Farman in Pakistan to change the word of Hari into Ali. In 1891 Farman of Zanjbar Imam said not to recite about hinduism in Ginans, it was for that time when you were hindus Now leave 9 Avtars and talk about Ali...[/b]


If ' Starmunir' has correctly worded the above underlined message of Alwaeza Zarina Kamaluddin regarding Ginans, then in my honest opinion, Zarina has improperly interpreted the Farman of ISMS OF Zanjibar of 20th August 1899. does she want to convey that the concept of ' Das Avatar' has no reality and it was used as a artifice to lure the innocent Hindus to convert to Ismailis?

Please read the Farman again which I reproduce below:

" It is not proper to read Hinduism stories for Ilm knowledge ; at the time when you were Hindu, Pir Sadardin shown you the way. That time passed.

Now read praises of Maula and his descendent's, read praises of Hazar Imam, give up nine Avatars. In tenth Avatar, read praises of our forefather's,read Ginans, read description of tenth Avatar given in them."

All what ISMS wanted to covey to the Jamat that they should read about Ismaili Imams (10th Avatar) , read and study those Ginans where 'Ali's' description as tenth Avatar is given and read about the praises of the ' Imam of the Time.' And that is what is Ismailism is all about. He did not say that the concept of 10 Avatars was wrong or incorrect and that it was just used by Pirs for conversion purpose. There are no wordings in the Farman which even insinuates such a message.

If the same Farman is read further, ISMS even instructs the Jamat not to read stories related to 'Karbala' as they were of no use to Jamat. Let us see how that Farman proceeds:

" Read the essence out of events and stories, do not read wrong description, it is of no use now to describe the stories of 1200 years." ( Note: ISMS then refers to Muharam and Karbala, which part I have not given here)

Does that mean the event of karbala did not take place? All he wanted from the jamat they should concentrate on history of Ismaili Imams and the essence in general -- and about activities of 'the Imam of the Time' in particular.

Let me further explain, to the best of my understanding, as to why that Farman was made: Even in city like Bombay, where there were many waezeens in the period of early 1960's, I have not heard any waezin giving information to Jamat about Imamat during Fatimid or Almut period. Even though the book of 'Noorum Mubin' was in circulation at that time for last several years, to my best of knowledge, only one family out of 20 may have possessed it let alone was it read thoroughly.

If such was the condition in 1960 in city like Bombay, one can easily imagine what would have been the religious knowledge of Ismailism by the general jamat during 1899 at Zanzibar. So before interpreting this Farman of ISMS of 1899, one should take all such things into consideration and not to make any such meaning which was not intended there.

Well we all know that in his memoirs, ISMS has already mentioned divinity to Ram, Krishna and others.

Next take bold letters' part of Zarina's waez, provided they are actual representative words of the Waeza. To my best of knowledge and informations I gathered form others is that Hazar Imam visited Pakistan in later part of September 1960 and then in November 1964. He did not visit Pakistan in 1961. I request starmunir to check his notes of Zarina's waez.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad Kasam Ali,

As you wrote that:

"If' Starmunir' has correctly worded the above underlined message of Alwaeza Zarina Kamaluddin regarding Ginans, then in my honest opinion, Zarina has improperly interpreted the Farman of ISMS OF Zanjibar of 20th August 1899. does she want to convey that the concept of ' Das Avatar' has no reality and it was used as a artifice to lure the innocent Hindus to convert to Ismailis?"


If you think that I have not properly quoted the words and am writing wrong than you may check out it from waez cassette of Alwaez Zarina Kamaluddin on subject of Ginan. Also I would recommend you to listen to the waezes and lectures of Alwaez Kamluddin on topic of "Quran and Ginan".


As you wrote the English translation of Farman that


" It is not proper to read Hinduism stories for Ilm knowledge ; at the time when you were Hindu, Pir Sadardin shown you the way. That time passed.

Now read praises of Maula and his descendent's, read praises of Hazar Imam, give up nine Avatars. In tenth Avatar, read praises of our forefather's,read Ginans, read description of tenth Avatar given in them."

I would just like to confirm it from you that Imam said read description of tenth avtaar given in them or ten avtars given in them? As you have read in my earlier post in my views I wrote that there are false and illogical stories related to concept of Das Avtar thats why Imam told not to read false stories for knowledge read about 10 avtar in Ginan. So is it ten or tenth....?As there is also farman to study this concept from Islamic point of view and there is also waez of Abu Ali on concept of das avtar in which he tried explaining it from Islamic and Scientific [theory of evolution] point of view.
If it is tenth..than is it incorrect to recite the verses of Ginans with the names of Das Avtar as per Farman? as it is main topic of discussion here changings in Ginan.

you made request that,
"To my best of knowledge and informations I gathered form others is that Hazar Imam visited Pakistan in later part of September 1960 and then in November 1964. He did not visit Pakistan in 1961. I request starmunir to check his notes of Zarina's waez."

I will check it out again and within two or three days I will reply to you regarding this.


Last edited by star_munir on Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad Kasam Ali,
The topic of waez is "Message of Ginan",its by Zarina Kamaluddin and as volume was not clear in cassette I got, the year of Farman was either 1961 0r 1951 in Pakistan. As I am not sure but I think she said 1961 but you may check out both years.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My purpose of writting that was not for crticizing any ismaili missionary. I have wrote point of views of Bahadur Ali,Abu Ali, Kamaluddin and Zarina Kamaluddin so one may read different point of views of different missionaries on same topic. I just wrote what they said in their various waezes. The purpose was only to discuss different point of views. I am not against any of them nor I am saying all are right. No one is perfect and there can be differ of views and opinions and thats what I wrote.
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nagib



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The false information that Hazar Imam may have approved changes in the ginans has been discussed several times at various world Ismailia Assiations meeting [ITREB was named Ismailia Association before 1986] and each time it has been concluded that this was false news by people who wanted those changes. Each time it was concluded that Hazar Imam never wanted those changes.

I have read personaly some of the reports during that time [pre-1986] and at that time I also had copies but this is a long time ago and after all the moving the documents are not handy.

But it is always sad that documents disappear faster then false rumours.

Nagib
=====================
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Afreeda^-^



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok. umm.....u know on the home page of this web there is something call "Fair" and i was wondering y cant i play all the ginans? or is it just my computer? cuz i really wanna learn the ginan called Dur Deshthi Aayo. icon_exclaim.gif icon_confused.gif icon_confused.gif icon_confused.gif icon_confused.gif icon_confused.gif icon_confused.gif icon_confused.gif icon_confused.gif icon_confused.gif icon_confused.gif icon_question.gif [/code]
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ZAly



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please I think we are missing a very important point here. Christainity, Judaism, Islam are all God sent religions. Quran, Bible etc are all Divine scriptures. However Hinduism was not a religion sent by God, nor was Geeta a Divine scripture. <BR>We have to be very clear o&shy;n this. That is why I think it is necessary to make changes in the Ginans. In the past Ginans were used to convert Hindu Pagans to Islam. Now that we are Muslims we dont need to follow Hari, Krishan, Geeta, Vishnu. That is not a part of Islam, and it never was.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZAly wrote:
Please I think we are missing a very important point here. Christainity, Judaism, Islam are all God sent religions. Quran, Bible etc are all Divine scriptures. However Hinduism was not a religion sent by God, nor was Geeta a Divine scripture. <BR>We have to be very clear o&shy;n this. That is why I think it is necessary to make changes in the Ginans. In the past Ginans were used to convert Hindu Pagans to Islam. Now that we are Muslims we dont need to follow Hari, Krishan, Geeta, Vishnu. That is not a part of Islam, and it never was.


That is a very parochial view of Islam. Islam is universal in space and time. It is not restricted to a particular geographical area or a period of time. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah says in his memoir:

"All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe."
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so do you mean if it was just to convert hindus that means all were lie in Ginans so hindus may leave their religion and accept Islam?
Pir Shams in Garbi Nar Kasam Shah naa Farman...tells that He showed the mysteries of four veds and four kitabs in reciting verses of Ginans.
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kinnare786



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:09 pm    Post subject: Changing of words in ginan Reply with quote

The fact is that most of Ismailis do not communicate with populus outside our tariqa. I think reason is lack of knoweldge. We can simple go to site of Jamat Islami and other site. Ask them question and try to reason with them it will greatly benefit Ummah as a whole.
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ZAly



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAM

Can someone from Karachi please give me the email address of Alwaez Kamaluddin or Alwaeza Kamaluddin.

I am making a writeup on Momin Chetamani and would like to discuss and understand. I think Momin Chetamani beautifully describes the concept of Imamat, Creation, Evolution, basically all that our religion is based up.

Would be grateful if someone can help me with this and also get me the email address.
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Aamir19



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<P>YAM, <BR>Hi, how are you, I read your message regarding e-mail address of Al-waz Kamalludin.<BR>you contact "Tariqa &amp; Religious Education Board Karachi" they are help you.<BR><BR>thanks &amp; regards</P>
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dchandani



Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:12 am    Post subject: ginans /email adress for alvaez Reply with quote

alvaez Kamaludin's email adress is
zarkamal@cyber.net.pk
i hope this helps
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you would like, then you may also discuss the verses here.
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samirnoorali



Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:27 pm    Post subject: Uniting to Defend the Pir and Ginans Reply with quote

Dear Members:

I was very happy to see so many individuals who defended the Pirs and the Ginans from people who wish to change them. I am particularly happy to see that we will stand up for the Pir and maintain that his words are to be left alone in its original form. The importance of that is already given by numerous examples which you have all presented.

As times change the literature fades away, but you have all proven that even though times have changed that doesnít mean we have a right to change words that donít belong to us. If we changed the words of the Quran from:

Oh you who believe, obey Allah, and obey the Prophet, and the holders of authority from amongst you.

To

Oh you who believe, obey Allah, and obey the Prophet, and the Imams who are the people of the house.

Imagine then how Muslims from other sects would react? Imagine printing it and saying that this is far closer to our interpretation of the faith. Even though we would consider that closer to what we interpret the line to be, no orthodox Muslim would agree. Therefore reverse the situation and wonder how a follower of the Pir would feel if one changed the words of the ginans? They would feel exactly the same way.

Well then as many of you put it, the Pir is the successor of the Prophet, and so we are respecting him. At present, Karim is the Pir for all Ismailis.

Keep united in this matter because it is very important for the future. Never bend to those people who say that the ginans were conversion tools, that they contain Hindu elements, because for those of you who are well versed in ginans you will attest that the Pirs introduced concepts that are unique from Islam and Hinduism. No Hindu follows the manifestations of Aaron, Simon Peter, and Abu Talib. Nor do Sunnis accept Ali Allah. We see the Pirís interpretation of history as far more Islamic than what other sects interpret it to be. It is not that other schools of thought are right and we are catching up, but rather we are right and they are catching up.

So therefore these teaching conform to a unique blend of the pre-Islamic presence of Allah and the Islamic presence of Allah. In other words, the Pir has looked over history of many cultures and brought to us the linkages. These linkages bind Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

And Iím happy to see individuals in this forum stand up and say we are not afraid. We are not afraid of other people and their opinions. We are completely confident in our own teachings and that we can teach others rather than they teach us.

I think that diversity in our jamat is our greatest strength. Ismailis from Afghanistan, Syria, India, Pakistan, United States, Canada, UK, Asia, and elsewhere may speak different languages, come with different traditions, but at the end of the day we should love each other as equals under one faith. We should be open to one another and share our traditions and learn each otherís ways.

Now sometimes there is confusion between missionaries and Pirs. Look at the list of Pirs:

1. Pir Mohammad (the Prophet Mohammad)
2. Pir Hasan (grandson to the Prophet Mohammad)
3. Pir Kasam Shah
4. Pir Jafar Shah
5. Pir Zain ul Abadin
6. Pir Amir Ahmad
7. Pir Noordin (Satgur Noor)
8. Pir Indra Imammadin
9. Pir Mohammad Mansur
10. Pir Galabdin
11. Pir Abdul Majid
12. Pir Mustansirbillah
13. Pir Ahmad Hadi
14. Pir Hasham Shah
15. Pir Mohammad Shah
16. Pir Mahmud Shah
17. Pir Mohobdin
18. Pir Khalaqdin
19. Pir Abdul Mominin
20. Pir Islamdin
21. Pir Salehdin
22. Pir Salahdin
23. Pir Shamsdin
24. Pir Nasirdin
25. Pir Shahabudin
26. Pir Sadardin
27. Pir Hasan Kabirdin
28. Pir Tajdin
29. Pir Mustansirbillah (Pir Pandiyate Jawanmardi)
30. Pir Haidar Ali
31. Pir Aladdin
32. Pir Kasam Shah
33. Pir Nasir Mohammad
34. Pir Baba Aga Hasam Shah
35. Pir Mohammad Zaman
36. Pir Aga Aziz
37. Pir Mehrab Beg
38. Pir Ali Akbar Beg
39. Pir Aga Ali Asgar Beg
40. Pir Mirza Shah Hasan Ali
41. Pir Mirza Shah Kasam Ali
42. Pir Aga Shah Abul Hasan Ali
43. Pir Mirza Mohammad Bakir
44. Pir Sarkar Mata Salamat
45. Pir Aga Shah Hasan Ali
46. Pir Aga Shah Ali Shah Datar
47. Pir Aga Shah Khalillah
48. Pir Abul Hasan Shah
49. Pir Sultan Mohammad Shah
50. Pir Karim


This lineage shows that the current Pir is present in this world. So when we unite together we are not only considering Karim as Imam, but also as a Pir. This is very important. Without this understanding many individuals will feel it is perfectly fine to change the words of the ginans. But having seen your strong faith in the Pir on this forum, I am certain that you will continue to protect that which is dear to our history.

Let me once again say that Pirs are not the exclusive property of Khojas. That is not the case. Pirs are for every Ismaili, whether they be Afghani, Syrian, Arab, Asian, or European, etc.

There can be many missionaries in the world, but the Pir is unique. He is the manifestation of the Prophet. Remember the teachings of our forefathers. They taught us that Ali, Mohammad, and Allah are part of the same Noor. The same essence.

Keep up the good work, because this website, ismaili.net, had done a wonderful job preserving khojki text. It is unique, as no other website has come close over the years to provide us with such valuable information.
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KhojaIsmaili



Joined: 24 Jun 2009
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

samirnoorali, I don't see Pir Sabzaali on the list. Was he not our Pir? Please clarify.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KhojaIsmaili wrote:
samirnoorali, I don't see Pir Sabzaali on the list. Was he not our Pir? Please clarify.
There has been discussion on the status of Pir Subzali at:

Doctrines --> Pir and Prophet

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=651&start=0
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KhojaIsmaili wrote:
samirnoorali, I don't see Pir Sabzaali on the list. Was he not our Pir? Please clarify.

Samir,
There is a link about Pir Sabzaali in Ismaili.net, but let me tell you this in short here that pirs should be from "AHLE-BAIT"(Prophet Mohammed and Hazarat Ali') family and the title of pir should be granted from the Imam, for a example Pir Imamdin was not official pir but he was SAYED who wrote a great,valubale ginan " NAKALANKI GITA' and many more ginans.
Pir Sabzaali and pir Ismail Gangaji received pirs title after their death.
Nasir Khusaru and other great Ismaili dai were not from Ahle-Bait so we can not consider them as our Ismaili pirs.
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ShamsB



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
KhojaIsmaili wrote:
samirnoorali, I don't see Pir Sabzaali on the list. Was he not our Pir? Please clarify.

Samir,
There is a link about Pir Sabzaali in Ismaili.net, but let me tell you this in short here that pirs should be from "AHLE-BAIT"(Prophet Mohammed and Hazarat Ali') family and the title of pir should be granted from the Imam, for a example Pir Imamdin was not official pir but he was SAYED who wrote a great,valubale ginan " NAKALANKI GITA' and many more ginans.
Pir Sabzaali and pir Ismail Gangaji received pirs title after their death.
Nasir Khusaru and other great Ismaili dai were not from Ahle-Bait so we can not consider them as our Ismaili pirs.



It becomes easier if we use the arabic terms - Imam Mustawada for Pirs that are from Ahle Bayt and Pirs for titular pirs.
Imam Mustawadas (Pir Hasan, Pir Shams, Pir Satgur Noor etc) - who are living pirs - can only be from Ahle Bayt. Posthumous or Titular Pirs - are not Imam Mustawada.

Shams
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TheMaw



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Posts: 106

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:
It becomes easier if we use the arabic terms - Imam Mustawada for Pirs that are from Ahle Bayt and Pirs for titular pirs.
Mustawda "one who is entrusted with something" refers to those who are accorded the rank of imam but cannot pass it on to their decendants. This is why Hassan was al-Imam al-Mustawda and Hussayn was al-Imam al-Mustaqar (in whom the Imamate is resident, rather than entrusted).

Pir is used by Khojas for a Mustawda; Mustaqar is Shah or Hujjat ("proof").


Last edited by TheMaw on Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total
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ShamsB



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="TheMaw"][quote="ShamsB"]
agakhani wrote:
KhojaIsmaili wrote:
samirnoorali, It becomes easier if we use the arabic terms - Imam Mustawada for Pirs that are from Ahle Bayt and Pirs for titular pirs.
Mustawda "one who is entrusted with something" refers to those who are accorded the rank of imam but cannot pass it on to their decendants. This is why Hassan was al-Imam al-Mustawda and Hussayn was al-Imam al-Mustaqar (in whom the Imamate is resident, rather than entrusted).

Pir is used by Khojas for a Mustawda; Mustaqar is Shah or Hujjat ("proof").



Thank you..hopefully this helps clear the air between the Khojas and the rest of Ismailies when it comes to Nasir Khusraw and Pir Sadardeen and Pir Shams etc.

Shams
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TheMaw



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:
Thank you..hopefully this helps clear the air between the Khojas and the rest of Ismailies when it comes to Nasir Khusraw and Pir Sadardeen and Pir Shams etc.
I actually don't know what the statuses of Pir Sadruddin and Shams were. Pir is the Persian word that is the same as "shaykh" in Arabic: it means "Old Man", but respectfully. Nasir Khusraw, for example, was a "pir" but his actual rank in the Ismaili da3wah was first Missionary and then Chief Missionary to Khurasan. He was never equal to Husayn...

In the case of Pir Sadruddin and Pir Shams, I believe they were also high-ranking Missionary (da'i) but not Imam. Shams was sent - I believe by Imam Qasimshah - as a Missionary and so was Sadruddin.

This is no disrespect to any of the above figures. They were crucial and brilliant - Nizari saints, you could say. But they weren't Imams: here PIR means "Elder", not "Imam". Imams are members of the Ahl al-Bayt of rank, and most of them are Mustaqar. The names of most Mustawda Imams have not been recorded in our du'a, for example, and there are many who are only known through scholarship from the Middle Ages: siblings of the Mustaqar, usually.
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ShamsB



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheMaw wrote:
ShamsB wrote:
Thank you..hopefully this helps clear the air between the Khojas and the rest of Ismailies when it comes to Nasir Khusraw and Pir Sadardeen and Pir Shams etc.
I actually don't know what the statuses of Pir Sadruddin and Shams were. Pir is the Persian word that is the same as "shaykh" in Arabic: it means "Old Man", but respectfully. Nasir Khusraw, for example, was a "pir" but his actual rank in the Ismaili da3wah was first Missionary and then Chief Missionary to Khurasan. He was never equal to Husayn...

In the case of Pir Sadruddin and Pir Shams, I believe they were also high-ranking Missionary (da'i) but not Imam. Shams was sent - I believe by Imam Qasimshah - as a Missionary and so was Sadruddin.

This is no disrespect to any of the above figures. They were crucial and brilliant - Nizari saints, you could say. But they weren't Imams: here PIR means "Elder", not "Imam". Imams are members of the Ahl al-Bayt of rank, and most of them are Mustaqar. The names of most Mustawda Imams have not been recorded in our du'a, for example, and there are many who are only known through scholarship from the Middle Ages: siblings of the Mustaqar, usually.


Actually Pir Shams and his great(correct me here Kmaherali) grandson Pir Sadardeen and his sons Pir Hasan Kabirdeen and Pir Tajdin were Imam Mustawada - as per our old dua and the farmans of the Imams. I believe someone has published a list of all 50 pirs upto Hazar Imam in the previous postings. And all of them were Ahle Bayt - they did descend from the Holy Prophet being lineal offspring of Imam Jafar As Sadiq.
If you take a look at all the 50 pirs - with the exception of Pir Pandiyat E Jawan Mardi - (which was the book of Farmans oF Imam Mustan SirBillah II) - all the other 49 pirs were Ahle Bayt - even Pir Bibi Sarkar Maryam Khatun - the wife of Imam Khalliulah II, and the mother of Imam Aga Hassanali Shah was Ahle Bayt being the daughter of Imam Khallulah's paternal uncle.
In his will Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah appointed Shah Karim as the Imam and the Pir.
My statement just alluded to saying maybe if we start using the older arabic terminology for these figures we can maybe reduce the confusion and friction amongst the different traditions. Pir means 2 different things to different groups of folks and it is becoming a source of consternation.

Shams
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheMaw wrote:
In the case of Pir Sadruddin and Pir Shams, I believe they were also high-ranking Missionary (da'i) but not Imam. Shams was sent - I believe by Imam Qasimshah - as a Missionary and so was Sadruddin.

This is no disrespect to any of the above figures. They were crucial and brilliant - Nizari saints, you could say. But they weren't Imams: here PIR means "Elder", not "Imam". Imams are members of the Ahl al-Bayt of rank, and most of them are Mustaqar. The names of most Mustawda Imams have not been recorded in our du'a, for example, and there are many who are only known through scholarship from the Middle Ages: siblings of the Mustaqar, usually.


The rank of the appointed Pir is equivalent to that of Prophet Muhammad. All the Pirs are Ahl al-Bayt (descendants of the Prophet). They are the bearers of the Noor just as the Prophet. In our previous Du'a, we also recited the names of our Pirs. MHI at present is both the Imam and the Pir.

More on this at:

Doctrines --> Pir and Prophet

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=651&start=0
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agakhani



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Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:19 am    Post subject: let make it clear. Reply with quote

It seems to me, this topic getting in confusion aproach . below are some clerification from me:-
1, Pir and Imam are two different authorities.
2, Both should be from AHLE-BAIT family.
3, Both should be present on earth all the time.
4, Pirs always appointed by Imam of the time.
5, There were some pirs in past who were not granted "PIRATAN" from
Imam of their time but their Ginans are still spoken in Jamat Khanas.
These type pirs usally call SYED.
6, During the time of Imam Mustansiribillah and after Pir Tajdin a book
name "PANDIYATE JAWAMARDI" written by Imam Mustansiribillah was
Ismaili pir.
7, PIR is persian word and it means, old respectable/reputable person.
8. There is no 'Pir' word in Arabic language, because there is no " P" letter
in Arabic alphabet. You can use Al-Mustwad instead of Pir.
9, In Khoja tradition they believe that pir is apeareance from Lord
Brahma, and Imam's apeareace is from Lord Vishnu. There are too
many Ginans on this topic in Gujarati, Khojki and other Indo languages
for above reference.
10,Pir Sabzali and Mukhi Ismail Gangji received pir title after their death.
but they both were not form AHLE-Bait family, they received Pir title
because of their excellent Khidmat of Jamat and Imam.
11, There are big differences between QASIDA and GINANS.Ginans cover
almost all the fields and are loded with RUHANIAYAT, Qasida is Praise
of Allah.
12, There is a book in gujarati language which is now available ''PIR
PADHARYA AAPNE DWAR" written by wellknown missionary ALIBHAI
NANJI. In this book you can find history of our 50 pirs, list of the
ginans written by each pirs, their year of birth death. MOZIZA e.t.c. I
would recommend every one who know Gujarati, must have this book
in their library.
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