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Changes in the Ginans
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sujjawal



Joined: 30 Jun 2014
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YA ALI MADAD!
I have been recently converted to the Shia Imami Ismaili tariqa from sunniism and have adopted Pir nasir khusrau's tradition and while in my study of khoja tadition I have seen in many of the ginans books which are beieng published by ITREB pakistan that verses regarding the topic of das avtar are not mentioned in ginan texts.terms like vishnu and maheshwar are also ommitted while term of bhirma(brahama) is retained.I am in a big confusion that whether Mowla doesnot want us to put emphasis on the concept of das avtar or it is not applicable this day.can anybody please guide me in this respect.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congratulation brother to join a Shiratan Mustkim path, a true path to reach to Allah' Noor.
Regarding changing in ginanic texts you are absolutely right, changes are made not only in Pakistan but I have seen in India, canada and USA so, nobody can blame Pakistan only.
But be honest with you as a diehard ginanic fan I have studied and observed deeply about the changes and my own thinking is; the most changes have been made in Pakistan, even though our current MHI never told us to changes any ginans, delete or ban any ginan.
now the question arise? whom to blame?
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5936

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks God, we have our Dasmo Avatar, Hazrat Ali whose Noor is guiding us through eternity.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as Ismaili imams farmans on ten incarnations is concern then let me tell you our 46,47 and 48th imams has accepted the 10 incarnations, same way imam Hakim also declared himself as tenth incarnation in his one khutba in presence of thousands peoples.
So none of Ismaili imams has denied it, matter of fact SMS once told the leaders that he was lord Krishna during Krishna era.
So, believing in ten incarnation is nothing wrong as long if you faith in it. However many Ismailis do not accept reincarnation theory because of their lake of knowledge or either they are heavily under inflence of Sunnies or other sects which do not beleive in reincarnation.
I will personally appreciate if you kindly give more information about your self at agakhani_78660@yahoo.com


Last edited by agakhani on Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
Thanks God, we have our Dasmo Avatar, Hazrat Ali whose Noor is guiding us through eternity.



To Admin [or any member who believe in incarnation, or specifically who say Imams are re-incarnation of previous Imam]: Can you guys please explain the concept of incarnation? How the incarnation happens? Is it considered the same soul but present in every Imams physical body? Please explain as I genuinely seek to understand. I know a lot of my friends and people whom I know as well believes in incarnation, but they don't consider Imams to be re-incarnation of previous Imams. I just need to understand if the same soul is incarnated in physical body's of Imam? Thank you.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5936

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imam is not a soul that incarnate or reincarnate, that would be consider a falacy in the eye of all Ismailis as acording to our Doctrines confirmed by our Imams, Imam is Noor and Noor does not incarnate in anyone, it Manifest itself in the Imam-e-Zaman.

We say Farmans of "Noor" Mowlana Shah Karim, the "Noor" part is important. It shows where the Divine Light Manifest.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
Imam is not a soul that incarnate or reincarnate, that would be consider a falacy in the eye of all Ismailis as acording to our Doctrines confirmed by our Imams, Imam is Noor and Noor does not incarnate in anyone, it Manifest itself in the Imam-e-Zaman.

We say Farmans of "Noor" Mowlana Shah Karim, the "Noor" part is important. It shows where the Divine Light Manifest.


thanks that's great.

Then I'd like you to briefly explain the concept of 10 incarnation [aka das avatar]. Does it not refer to incarnation? please.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tret,
Will you believe it if Admin or some one else give you explanation of Ten incarnations?
Ask this question to your self first, otherwise it will vain efforts by admin or some one else because ...... as per your bad old habit you will find mistakes in it, so how any one can trust a person who consider as an Ismaili but find mistakes in almost every other posts even in imams farmans and ginans!!??
bro first change your self and come out from the shadow of your narrow minds.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW:-
I do not want to waste my time to explain you 10 incarnation theory again and again which I already explained to you with the farman of SMS on incarnation.
For rigid, arrogant and preduice person like you lots of senior readers stoped to post in this forum and I know Admin do not know that, any way they are few but let me tell you about Shiraz Virani he is wharehouse gowdown of knowledge but because of you he has stoped to post as he used to post in this forum I think many true amd serious readers may be miss him as I do but this os all happened because you!! Ask this question your self? Are you really an Is----i or ????????????????.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:

Imam is not a soul that incarnate or reincarnate, that would be consider a falacy in the eye of all Ismailis as acording to our Doctrines confirmed by our Imams, Imam is Noor and Noor does not incarnate in anyone, it Manifest itself in the Imam-e-Zaman.

We say Farmans of "Noor" Mowlana Shah Karim, the "Noor" part is important. It shows where the Divine Light Manifest.



Yet most of members here says that Imams are incarnation of previous Imams and same soul that comes back.

this can't be true, because for a soul to be incarnated into another physical body, the person must die first, and then the soul can come back in someone else's body. But, that's not true with Imams. Imams are alive and the next Imam from amongst his male descended are also alive at the same time. So, the present Imam as well as the next Imam have their individual soul and hence logically we can conclude that Imams are NOT reincarnation, but rather Noor-e-Imamat is manifested in THEM. Or Imams are locus of manifestation of Noor-e-Imamat.
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 1257

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret said :

Quote:
Yet most of members here says that Imams are incarnation of previous Imams and same soul that comes back.

this can't be true, because for a soul to be incarnated into another physical body, the person must die first, and then the soul can come back in someone else's body. But, that's not true with Imams. Imams are alive and the next Imam from amongst his male descended are also alive at the same time. So, the present Imam as well as the next Imam have their individual soul and hence logically we can conclude that Imams are NOT reincarnation, but rather Noor-e-Imamat is manifested in THEM. Or Imams are locus of manifestation of Noor-e-Imamat.


You answered your own question and that to quite beautifully icon_smile.gif
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shiraz.virani wrote:
tret said :

Quote:
Yet most of members here says that Imams are incarnation of previous Imams and same soul that comes back.

this can't be true, because for a soul to be incarnated into another physical body, the person must die first, and then the soul can come back in someone else's body. But, that's not true with Imams. Imams are alive and the next Imam from amongst his male descended are also alive at the same time. So, the present Imam as well as the next Imam have their individual soul and hence logically we can conclude that Imams are NOT reincarnation, but rather Noor-e-Imamat is manifested in THEM. Or Imams are locus of manifestation of Noor-e-Imamat.


You answered your own question and that to quite beautifully icon_smile.gif


thanks Shiraz brother.

I was merely expressing my understanding. I know that some members don't agree with me on this point, and I just wanted to clarify this.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To every one in this forum,

Half knowledge is dangerous and tough to digest.

Only, I can say you folks, first read Ismaili literature thoroughly including ginans before you put your any interpretation on any thing, your interpretation may be wrong! who knows? and wrong interpretation always misguides readers.
In my thinking reincarnation ( forget about Imam's reincarnation because it is tough to answer for me as per my little knowledge) is possible there are many Yogis in Himalayas they can enter in the body of live human being and also can leave whenever they want to, its calls 'PAR KAYA PRAVESH"[/b] for a proof I have many to suggest you guys but read Paul Burton's well known book "In search of secret India" and you will find what I am talking about.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
To every one in this forum,

Half knowledge is dangerous and tough to digest.

Only, I can say you folks, first read Ismaili literature thoroughly including ginans before you put your any interpretation on any thing, your interpretation may be wrong! who knows? and wrong interpretation always misguides readers.
In my thinking reincarnation ( forget about Imam's reincarnation because it is tough to answer for me as per my little knowledge) is possible there are many Yogis in Himalayas they can enter in the body of live human being and also can leave whenever they want to, its calls 'PAR KAYA PRAVESH"[/b] for a proof I have many to suggest you guys but read Paul Burton's well known book "In search of secret India" and you will find what I am talking about.


My question is specific about Imams' reincarnation [concept of das avatar maybe?].
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin,
I am really glad to know that you have plan to put some changed farmans, Paris Conference and some ginans which has been changed by some one (?)?? But changes has been made that is for sure! Who made these changes? which is still unknown but many ginan lovers point finger towards Pakistan Ismailia Association. ITREB.
I can not belive that higher authority leaders lets this kind changes happened!! and intentially spread wrong information amongst jamats even al waez like you just mentioned in your above post!,but the most thing which hurts me is ; they gives the references of MHI! for a example and I know that, none of our imams SMS or current imams ever told us to make changes in ginans.
But like ; Mazahar and Nuseri without their knowledge says these changes are permitted by imams i.e. replace the word Hari to Ali, but where, when, which day and date? They do not have answer.
I will really appreciate if you kindly put the brief details about your meeting between MHI and Amir Ali Amlani on ginans so that some dudes keep their mouth shuts.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5936

PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:10 pm    Post subject: Our Modern Ginanic Literature Reply with quote

The First part of the report is attached here in PDF format.

This is the paper presented at the Ismailia Association International Review Meeting in Nairobi, Kenya 1980 by the Ismailia Association for Canada. The paper explains how some parts of the report by Rupani of the Paris Conference 1975 has created some mis-representations and how some Ginans books printed by sister Ismailia Association went in fact against the decisions of the Conference. (Ismailia Association Pakistan has not been named specifically but its 2 botched publications on Ginan are named in the title page of the report Appendix 1)

The report is endorsed by President Amirali P. Haji of the Ismailia Association for Canada who attended the Conference in Paris in 1975.

The First part of the report is attached here in PDF format.

The second part, Appendix 1, Review Sheets will be added as soon as the scans are completed. -the second part provides a comparative analysis and comments on some major changes that have taken places in Ginans book published after the Paris Conference.1975 outside the directives of the Imam.

Go to the link below to download both PDF files (10 MB size each)

http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/31647

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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19761

PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Our Modern Ginanic Literature Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
The second part, Appendix 1, Review Sheets will be added as soon as the scans are completed. -the second part provides a comparative analysis and comments on some major changes that have taken places in Ginans book published after the Paris Conference.1975 outside the directives of the Imam.
Very comprehensive and well researched document. I look forward to reading the Review Sheets. Thanks for sharing.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5936

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The total number of page in the report is almost 200 pages. Indeed a very well researched paper. The second part should be scanned by the end of next long week-end.

The important fact about this 1980 report is that is is endorsed by the president of the Ismailia Association Canada who attended the 1975 Paris Conference. Each of the remaining pages of part two is an eye opener.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
The total number of page in the report is almost 200 pages. Indeed a very well researched paper. The second part should be scanned by the end of next long week-end.

The important fact about this 1980 report is that is is endorsed by the president of the Ismailia Association Canada who attended the 1975 Paris Conference. Each of the remaining pages of part two is an eye opener.


This is entirely revolving around the topic of printing of ginans, right? Or there are other elements of Paris Conference that are in there also?
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fayaz006



Joined: 17 Jul 2014
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="tret"]
Admin wrote:
The total number of page in the report is almost 200 pages. Indeed a very well researched paper. The second part should be scanned by the end of next long week-end.


This is entirely revolving around the topic of printing of ginans, right? Or there are other elements of Paris Conference that are in there also?


It appears there is more to it than that. From the report i gather that the one of the objectives of the Paris Conference was to (Change, Modify, Update) ginans of Category C since some Ismailia Associations had requested it. However there needed to be consensus on the changes before printing the ginans, rather changes were made unilaterally. Also category A and B ginans were to be left unchanged. The report claims that they were changed as well. Its a pretty damning report which raises more questions.

Why were the changes accepted and became widespread in lieu of the report?
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The report covers only the one page dedicated to Ginans in the report of the Paris Conference 1975.

There was another report in 1969 where I read that at that meeting Pakistan Association was already challenged to produce any evidence that the Imam wanted the changes in Ginans and the conclusion was that this was not from the Imam at all but from one single individual who told that to the Ismailia Association Pakistan.

I am trying to get hold of that 1969 Conference report also. That Conference also discussed the matter of uniformity in the Dua. The last day of the Conference was attended by Hazar Imam who left angry because of the bitter differences amongst the Ismailia Associations and because one of them did not agree with the initial text of the Dua which Shah Karim brought to the Jamat in 1956 with a Talika sent by the then Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah. But that discussion will fall under another thread, not this one.

All of those historical Conference where Imam Chairs and which brings together all of our Institutions are of extreme importance. Some of those well known under Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah were the Dar es Salaam Mission Conference in 1945 and the Evian 1952 Conference.

We will create a thread to discuss the outcome of those international conferences once few of those minutes or correspondences pertaining to those are available to us.

If you have any of interest, please send to heritage@ismaili.net with the appropriate title. Thanks you.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19761

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin,

Can you change the name of this thread to "Changes in the Ginans". At present the spelling does not reflect the importance of the content. Some may be disuaded by the wrong spelling.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="fayaz006"]
tret wrote:
Admin wrote:
The total number of page in the report is almost 200 pages. Indeed a very well researched paper. The second part should be scanned by the end of next long week-end.


This is entirely revolving around the topic of printing of ginans, right? Or there are other elements of Paris Conference that are in there also?


It appears there is more to it than that. From the report i gather that the one of the objectives of the Paris Conference was to (Change, Modify, Update) ginans of Category C since some Ismailia Associations had requested it. However there needed to be consensus on the changes before printing the ginans, rather changes were made unilaterally. Also category A and B ginans were to be left unchanged. The report claims that they were changed as well. Its a pretty damning report which raises more questions.

Why were the changes accepted and became widespread in lieu of the report?



My understanding was that category C to be collected and used for research purposes.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There was another report in 1969 where I read that at that meeting Pakistan Association was already challenged to produce any evidence that the Imam wanted the changes in Ginans and the conclusion was that this was not from the Imam at all but from one single individual who told that to the Ismailia Association Pakistan.


And that single person's name easily can find in Part -1 & Part -2. if you use your common scene.
He must be scornful person towards ginanic literature!!.
Where is Appendix -1 ? I am waiting for it with keen interest.

Admin, will you please kindly give a brief detail about your meeting with Al-waez Amlani, I am look forward to read about that along with other materials as you promise to put in next weekend. if it is not appropriate to put here in forum then you can PM or e-mail it.
agakhani_78660@yahoo.com

Now! Beware be ready to answer about your wrong accusations you have made so far underneath Paris conference resolutions!! which were never executed at all in other countries but only in Pakistan.
Thanks admin for bringing the truth which was hidden behind the curtain for a long time.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad:
This is my personal opinion and I am not siding with anybody but aligning with truth as conceived by me.
Firstly our religion is top light n not 'top heavy'.
what we have in our Jk is is more n more than enough.
For an haqiqati just few lines of important farmans and two words from ALI
can take care till eternity.
In any school exam papers are set from sylaabus of each classes from book the children or student. That is enough for him to graduate all along the way.
nevertheless each school has library of say minimum 10000 book to read n refer.
No questions is asked from those book.
Simalarly I feel may 50-70 ginans are more more than enough with hi spiritual content for an ismaili to remember fully n recite along with singer.
thousand of it does not make much value addition to one progress in religion n faith.
we do have dua( ayats of Quran), farmans n IBAADAT. as well
( salad,main course n dessert).
If starters in a meal spread are say 6 items instead of twenty still the meal spread is elegant.
Khojas do have dramik bhavna/religous sentiments for Ginans.

PLEASE NOTE ALL PROPHETS/PIRS WERE SEND FOR THAT PERIOD N PURPOSE TO SERVE CAUSE OF ALI.
they were for those mandate n wrote what was best in those times n circumstances.
theirs mandate was to bring them to ALI/Imam
and Then words of ALI as first person/farmans take over.
if ginans were segregated and confined to different uses,It was great for jamat.
If i was one of leaders then I may give weight age of 1 ginan:5 fARMAN
FOR REGULAR reading.
the words of pir/prophets are second person praising of telling about first person.
Just read n believe in H.aLI KHUTBA E BAHYAN lines,do you need 1000 ginans to to believe the same thing.

In India the desi starters in any meal are mostly oily n spicy. Too much of it and not enjoying fresh salad spread,main course n dessert can get one an acidity in the stomach.
I wish that personal words of ALI to guide me to eternity much more than
third person words to guide me to eternity.

SAMAJDARO KO ISHARA KAAFI HAI.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5936

PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:

Just read n believe in H.aLI KHUTBA E BAHYAN lines,do you need 1000 ginans to to believe the same thing.


You are wrong, one line of a ginan is enough for us and one line of farman is also enough for us.

"Ahl Ali Islam Shah Raja, Allah ehi Imam..."
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Admin:Ya Ali Madad.
Let me assume that along with others(us) are right for a while.
Your own admission states that just half a ginan is enough to achieve the desired conviction of ALI from it.So in reality 999.5 ginans does not add more value to what is already achieved.If they say 900 ood are confined to store room n library.It is a very fair action in the year 2015.
Please remember ginans are part of traditions on not our tariqa.So a rational sense person must try to understand how much percentage of it should be there.
If a person wants to attend a party does he desire an invitation directly from the host or invitation copy(should be valid) ages old allowing entry to party thru via media.
Farman are first person message in current period,while sayings of prophet n appointed pirs were more important for those time.( essence may be eternal),It is still a message from third person.

A question to those from us.
If you are having a well balanced protein rich healthy breakfast,lunch and dinner daily.
How many vitamin pills does one needs in month to supplement one's energy?.
with above quality of meal?
None can be needed?.
60 per month is more than enough?
1000 pills need to swallowed per month?( one can land up in either hospital or grave yard).
Please note ginan are par excellence baatin views of Quran written in melodious form to bring/deliver a believer to Imam, then HE n HE TAKES
over absolutely.
traditions for a given period( Ali can set that period) supplement our tariqa.as vitamin pills are supplement to food, subject to that food not being with enough protein for energy
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no reasoning in your post, you are confusing the spiritual world and the material world. These are worlds apart and you are trying to say bot are bound by the same laws, those that you have put in place for yourself and for all other human being of the universe.


Let each person believe as he wants, Hazar Imam said our faith is an individual faith, our link is directly with the Imam, we do not need people interfering in our relation with our Imam in which no one, even other Ismailis, have any the right to interfere!
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Admin:Ya Ali Madad.
There is no confusion.
Firstly the scholars and leaders must know the proper definition of what is tariqa n traditions.

What is to be 'followed' n what is to be 'uphold ed'.
Spiritual n material coexist at all times.so examples n analogy can be given from science n day to day life such as meals,food to make an explanation simpler.

Our dua/tasbih,farmans n ibaadat are staple food ( ruhani khorak) for the soul while ginan/qasidas being traditions are supplementary and very hi quality complementary food for the soul.
So what is needed how much is prerogative of ALI thru religious board now.
In matters of tariqa MHI will have final say.
Khojas out of passion for ginans feel utmost weight age to it for salvation.
700 year back the other staple food for soul was so prevalent to the new inspired ismailis ,with the time when Imam is personally there tariqa overrules the tradition.
If a ginan is archived for good there is a reason to it.
just one example where where haqiaqti quoted from it n a non ismaili
debating over the word of samband,samdhi ( relation/inlaws).10 pages of it.
One cannot make as ismaili from western world by giving him ginans but out of Quran,farmans n effect of ibaadat and works of our imam n institutions n jamat need to known more n presented better n better.
If one is just stuck to ginans( Quran beautifully explained) may get stuck upto haqiqati level n may miss the opportunity toward Marifa/towhid.

I feel if our faith is strengthened by farman of living Imam much more than third person( prophet/pirs) telling about HIM n fourth persons (scholars like noman, farhad,tusi) who never made one ismaili with heavy doctrines.
In this 85% of pages are filled from zahiri angle of last two, which may not have qualitative value addition to increase one's faith ,but a times it reflects confusion.
education n exams are given n taken in classrooms n not libraries.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said, you are really confused....
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