Changings in ginan

Guest · Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2003 5:43 pm Post subject: Changings in ginan

YAM,<BR>I want to ask a question that why so many words from ginans are changed in pakistan e.g<BR>hari is changed into Ali.Is it due to farman of Hazr Imam or not?According to Kamaludin missionary we must use the words that are changed by tariqa board from ginansBut Bahadur Ali and Abu Ali missionary are saying in their waez to use original words of ginan. In India and in U.S.A there is not much changings in ginans.[/b]

rahimjumani

As I heard in many lectures that in 1975, at "Paris Confrence" Imam gives special instruction to a team of Scholars to bring about necessary changes and repalce Islamic words intead of Hindi words in Ginan. After bringing necessary changes team reported to Hazir Imam and then later it all were publishe.

nagib · Joined: 01 Feb 2003 Posts: 294

I have read the minutes of the Paris Conference and there is nothing which says that Changes have been approved at that time or later by Hazar Imam. Some ismailia Associations {pakistan/India] went ahead and made the changes but without approval from the Imam... There was a big fuss about this in later years at subsequent meetings. But nowadays, people do not respect anything, not the wording of ginans by Pirs nor even the wordings in Imam's sayings...

Nagib

shamsu · Joined: 15 Apr 2003 Posts: 646

Just wanted to express my thoughts on the subject.

Who are we (mortals) to change the eternal word of our spiritual mother the PIR of the time.

All creation started with a word of the creator.

Our spiritual life is based on a word (BOL) given by the Imam.

Our identification in the physical world is with a word i.e. the Name on our birth certificates.

It is our word that we give to the Imam in the first khoba during Kangwa.

It is the word of the Imam that we get in Ka'kan.

How do we feel when someone changes our words in a statement to someone else?

The difference is simply the same as the difference between TRUE and FALSE.

The only entity that can change Pirs word is the Pir of the time.

Just as no one, other than myself, can change my word.

Kmoosa · Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 7

I also noticed, that even in Anant Akhado many here in Canada would not let you recite certain versus as they were based on Hindi theology. I personaly don't think that we should change any of the wording from it's original quote's.

shamsu · Joined: 15 Apr 2003 Posts: 646

Deen Islam is eternal.

Every faith uses it's own terms (words) to understand eternity.

This doesn't change the eternal truth.

If I say hari, how is that any different from Aly? The word hari means HE who lives in everyone. Now is that not true of Aly.

The word swami is used by a devoted wife to refer to her husband. It could mean protector, owner, leader. Is that a whole lot different from Mowla which means protector.

The word Vishnu comes from vishwa=universe and anu=atom He who exists in every atom of the universe.

Hazar Imam= Ever present Imam. Present everywhere. In every atom of the universe.

In light of the above understanding Is not Vishnu=Hazar Imam?

So how is the original ginan inaccurate?
It is not.
It has never been inaccurate.
It is the ignorance and weak Iman of the murids that makes them see eternal truths as Hindu theology and hence the censorship of original verses.

star_munir · Joined: 21 Apr 2003 Posts: 1602

YAM
Thank you very much to all of you.As we all know that many words are changed from ginans.Many verses of ginans are not allowed to recite in Jk of India and Pak.How can we stop these changings or what we can do to preserve original ginans for future generations.

salimwali_mohd · Joined: 30 May 2003 Posts: 10

As far as my knowledge is that the changes is made due to circumstanses like some say that if my name is some thing who have authority to change his name? the answer is that initially our name was as well in hindu type but as we meture in religion we find that our religion is based on Islam so now we put our kids name on islamic way. Same as when these ginan was written at that time these words was used but now as you know that our ginan is in the course of BA degree and if the same words will be written then they (Sunni) get a chance to say that Ismailis are not Muslim they are HINDUS so on that basis and Imams Farman, only few words and few paat of the whole ginan treasure was discontinue. I hope that will be understable.
Salim

shamsu · Joined: 15 Apr 2003 Posts: 646

star_munir · Joined: 21 Apr 2003 Posts: 1602

Bahadur Ali Missionary said in his waez that there are verses About Jesus Christ in Quran Have you ever heard some one saying that it is chiristianity no.There are verses about Hazrat Mosa .
Now if there is Ginan about Harichandar Raja and Pahellaj why you are saying it is of hinduism and not of our religion.

gasajoo · Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 7 Location: London,UK

hi and YAMs<BR><BR>Can any of your readers help me find the ginan called Chandrabann?

shamsu · Joined: 15 Apr 2003 Posts: 646

This is a ginan written by pir shams

it is on page 105 of a blue hard cover book pavitra ginan sangra part 2

It may be available from Missionary Daredias Gift Store in Houston next to Savoy.

I am sorry I could not find the tel number or email addresses of his sons Nizar or Nazim.

If you know someone in houston they could easily get his tel number and email, its on his business card. I know he ships orders to people.

I would reccommend getting BUK Khangi Farman book of Imam SMS in Gujrati from him too.

star_munir · Joined: 21 Apr 2003 Posts: 1602

These are some point of views of missionaries regarding changes in Ginan:
Alwaez Kamaluddin: There is not rigidity in Ginans. There can be changes in Ginan therefore follow and recite Ginans as published by Tariqa Board and changings are made as per Guidance of Imam.

Bahadur Ali missionary: There is name of Moses and Jesus in Quran so is that chirstanity? Not its Islam than why if there is name of Harishchandra and Pahelaj in Ginan than people call it hinduism?
[therefore no need of changing orignal words of Ginan]

Alwaez Abu Ali Missionary:
Abu Ali missionary is totally against in changing words of Ginan. If there is word "swami" in orignal than not to recite it "Mowla" Follow the exact word for instance Rab and Allah means same but if there is word in Quran "Rab" than one must not recite it "Allah" saying that both means same therefore no difference...So same if in Ginan it is Swami than say Swami if it is Mowla than say Mowla.
Abu Ali missionary said our Pirs were not Hindus but Aal -e-Rasool,Aulad -e-Ali and Nabi so do you think they will make any mistakes? If you think so therefore it means you have not "imaan" i.e, faith in your religion.
Abu Ali missionary said Are you afraid of muslims [Non ismaili muslims] ?
They themselev don know about religion. If you dont want to believe this religion than better leave Ismailism but dont make changings in it.

star_munir · Joined: 21 Apr 2003 Posts: 1602

continue from last post.....Abu Ali said According to Imam Ginans are wonderful tradition and Imam want us to preserve it for future Generations not to destroy it or make changings in it. He pointed out a Ginan which has original 15 verses but in book of Ginan of Tariqa board for Pakistan there are only 4 verses. Rest is taken out. Whats this??
The same is India..they are making it unauthentic.
Every nation of the world is tring its best to preseve their ancient literature in their orignal forms but ismailis are such that they wants to change it.......

kmaherali · Joined: 27 Mar 2003 Posts: 9915

This reminds me of an incidence that was related to me of MHI's visit to Pakistan where he attended a performance of Abida Parveen wherein she recited the Ginan "Aye raheman raheman". MHI had a mulaqat with the Jamat after that and the Jamat recited the same Ginan. MHI remarked that it was a better rendering and that it cooled his eyes!

My concern is also about there not being sufficient time to recite all the verses of a Ginan in JKs. Usually only 3 or 4 verses are recited because of time constraints. What about the rest. Perhaps in Mandlis efforts may be made to encourage recitation of whole Ginans else we will lose some of our tradition! Also we should compile a taped version of all Ginans for future generations.

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