Français  |  Mission  |  About us  |  Disclaimer  |  Contact  |  What's new  |  FAQ  |  Search  | 

Welcome to The Heritage Web Site

-->
MY HERITAGE
New Heritage
Main Page
New Account
Set as Homepage
My Account
Logout
GOLDEN JUBILEE
Statistics
DIDARS
COMMUNICATE
Forums
Guestbook
Members List
Recommend Us
NEWS
Timelines
Ismaili History
Today in History
LEARN
Library
Youth's Corner
Ginans
FAIR
Gallery
Photo Album
Others


www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Ginan a conversion tool only or more?
FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups  ProfileProfile   
Login to check your private messagesLogin to check your private messages

Ginan a conversion tool only or more?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ismaili.net Forum Index -> Ginans
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
faisall667



Joined: 26 Sep 2004
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:20 am    Post subject: Ginan a conversion tool only or more? Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad everyone,

I got in an a tiny argument (debate) with someone at dandyia about ginans. The guy was like, we should write our own hymns and say it in Jamat Khana; and I explained to him that we do not have the authority to write such hymns. Then he questioned: "why? Ginans were only used to convert Hindus to Ismailis" I said that is true, but Ginans are more than that. I couldn't remember where I had read it, but I told him that "some people believe that they are the lost parts of Quran." We had to stop the debate, because my aunt called for me to take a picture. But my question is: "Is there a Farman, where it says that reciting and learning Ginans are as important as reading the Quran." I know that Hazir Imam has said a few farmans about Ginan and its importance, but I was wondering if He or Mawlana Sultan M. Shah have compared the two.

Thank you,

Faisal
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Ginan a conversion tool only or more? Reply with quote

faisall667 wrote:
Ya Ali Madad everyone,

I got in an a tiny argument (debate) with someone at dandyia about ginans. The guy was like, we should write our own hymns and say it in Jamat Khana; and I explained to him that we do not have the authority to write such hymns. Then he questioned: "why? Ginans were only used to convert Hindus to Ismailis" I said that is true, but Ginans are more than that. I couldn't remember where I had read it, but I told him that "some people believe that they are the lost parts of Quran." We had to stop the debate, because my aunt called for me to take a picture. But my question is: "Is there a Farman, where it says that reciting and learning Ginans are as important as reading the Quran." I know that Hazir Imam has said a few farmans about Ginan and its importance, but I was wondering if He or Mawlana Sultan M. Shah have compared the two.

Thank you,



Faisal


There are farmans of MSMS in regards to Ginans being the missing parts of the quran
If you do an analysis/study of ginans..eg. Anant Akhado..you will find corresponding verses in the Quran.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
faisall667



Joined: 26 Sep 2004
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad Shams,

Is there anyway you can pm me the farman?

Thanks,

Faisal
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are many Farmans by Hazir Imam and Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah on importance of Ginans. Its is foolishness to even think that Ginans were just conversion tool. If that would be the case then conversion was at time of Imam Kasim Shah by Pir Shams, Imam Islam Shah by Pir Sadardin etc..Then hundereds of years why still there is need of Ginans if it were just for conversion..Ginans are not just songs in Glory and Praise of our Imams. Its tafseer of Quran as per Farman.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
faisall667



Joined: 26 Sep 2004
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree Munir, but I would like to have a farman-comparing Ginans and Quran-to prove this to my new friend. There is a really good farman in the Ginan books where Hazir Imam emphasizes the importance of Ginans and thier meanings. But I want a farman comparing Ginan to Quran.

Thanx,

Faisal
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19607

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope these will help.

"If there were such faithful people among you who had read the Quran-
e Shariff and were well versed in Ginans as well, I would show each
and every verse of the Ginans in the Quran-e Shariff so that they
may explain to you. Alas, there is no such person."

- Imam SMS, Source: KIM, I:89 (quoted by Ali Asani in his TUI
handout)

"The Ginans that Pir Sadardin has bestowed upon you are the
quintessence of the Quran-e Shariff."
- Imam SMS, Source: Jangbar, July 5, 1899 (quoted by Ali Asani in
his TUI handout)

*The Holy Pirs have already given tawil and tafsir of Quran in the
Holy Ginans.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
faisall667



Joined: 26 Sep 2004
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you so much everyone.

Faisal
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imam has even said that Farmans of Imam are also like Ginans.
"My Farmans themselves are Ginans." (Usul-e-din)
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
BUIteacher23



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In our tariqah Dua and Dasond are mandatory when it comes to rituals. Ginans are not considered as compulsory as the former two in my most humble opinion(but this does not excuse us from reading and following the Quran). It summarizes what's in the Quran and was done so in order to convert those in India to Ismailism, but I view it as a form of oral tradition done through music. Some of the raagas and scales embedded in the music and melodies are believed to have special godly powers, as Hindus/India strongly believed so there is still that spiritual element to ginans which is why they are considered powerful in that sense.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BUIteacher23 wrote:
In our tariqah Dua and Dasond are mandatory when it comes to rituals. Ginans are not considered as compulsory as the former two in my most humble opinion(but this does not excuse us from reading and following the Quran). It summarizes what's in the Quran and was done so in order to convert those in India to Ismailism, but I view it as a form of oral tradition done through music. Some of the raagas and scales embedded in the music and melodies are believed to have special godly powers, as Hindus/India strongly believed so there is still that spiritual element to ginans which is why they are considered powerful in that sense.


Have you read the whole thread?
Farmans of the Imam were quoted above...
Have you studied Ginans and what the ginans say?

Btw..we don't follow the Quran but the Imam of the Time.


Shams
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
shirazkali



Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Huzur Vazir Dr. G. Allana in “Ginans of Ismaili Pirs” Vol 1, Pg. 39-41

“The Ginans can, broadly speaking, be divided into two categories. Some ginans were composed and recited to a congregation of Hindus, whom the Pirs and Sayeds were trying to convert from Hinduism into Islam. Others were addressed to those who had newly embraced Islam. In the ginans of the latter category, emphasis was laid on the cardinal principles of Islam, particularly on the Quran being the last Revelation of God to mankind, through his last Prophet Muhammad, on whom be the Peace of God. In this connection, it may be appropriate to quote a stanza from one of the ginans of Pir Hasan Kabiruddin, written in Siraiki dialect:

Eji Pir Sadruddin yara pare re Korana
Bahar jawe takun andar lana.
Shahne sunjano, apna Pir ne pichano

English verse Rendering

O brother,
Pir Sadruddin the Quran recites, behold;
Those who leave, he brings back to the fold.
Recognize the Shah and Pir, and the story is told.

All the Ismaili Imams, traditionally and historically, have laid emphasis in following the teachings laid down in the Holy Quran. For instance, in an eloquent chapter, entitled, “The Islamic Concept and My Role as Imam,” in his book Memoirs, His highness Sir Sultan Muhammad Shah Aga Khan writes, “It is said that we live, move, and have our being in God. We find this concept expressed often in the Quran , not in those words, of course, but just as beautifully and more tersely. . . To a certain extent I have found that the following verse of the Quran . . . has given assistance and understanding to myself and other Muslims. Allah is the light of the heaven and the earth. . . Allah guides to His light whom He pleases and Allah strikes out parables for men, and Allah all things both know”. (Chapter XXIV – Light: 35) . . . Let us than study the duties of man, as the great majority interpret them, according to the verses of the Quran and the Traditions of the Prophet. . .”

The Present Imam of the Ismailis, his Highness Shah Karim al-Husayni, in his Presidential address in Karachi in 1976, at the time of the international Conference on Seerat, said, “I ask, do we have a clear, firm and precious understanding of what Muslim society is to be in times to come? And if, as I believe, the answer is uncertain, where else can we search than in the Holy Quran, and in the example of Allah’s last and final Prophet?. . . We have knowledge that Islam is Allah’s final message, the Quran His final book and Muhammad his last Prophet.” ”
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19607

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a book on the Qur'an and the Ginans at:

http://www.kamalzar.com/pages/b43.htm

Introduction at:

http://simerg.com/literary-readings/quran-and-ginan-quranic-teachings-in-the-ginan/
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19607

PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Recieved
=======

This farman is supported by the Quran itself. Also e

Farman Number 31, Zanzibar 1st July 1899:

Tamaaraa vaaste ilm chhe te “Ginaan” chhe

Kuraan e Sharif ne terso varas thayaa chhe, te mulke arab ni vasi maatte chhe, ginaan ne saatso varas thayaa chhe, tamaaraa maatte ginaan chhe, te upar chaaljo.

Quran e Sharif is one thousand three hundred years old. That is for the people of the Arab nation. Ginans are seven hundred years old. Ginans are for you and you should follow this path.

Farman Number 33 Zanzibar 5th July 1899:

Tamne Pir Sadardin e je ginaan rachi aapyaa chhe temaa kuraan nu saar tatva kaaddhine hindustaan ni bhaashaa maa sambhaddaaviyaa chhe.

The ginans Pir Sadardeen composed for you have the real essence of the Quran. He has made them for you in the Indian languages.


"We have made it (the Quran) easy to understand and in your own tongue (language) may you take heed." 44:58

[44:58] We have thus clarified it in your language, that they may take heed.

Chapter (14) sūrat ib'rāhīm (Abraham)

Pickthall: And We never sent a messenger save with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them. Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Wise.


Yusuf Ali: We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ismaili.net Forum Index -> Ginans All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.1 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group




Fatal error: Call to a member function Execute() on a non-object in /home/heritage/web/webdocs/html/includes/pnSession.php on line 400