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Marriages
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pun_girl



Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:44 am    Post subject: Marriage with Non-Ismaili Reply with quote

I am a punjabi/sikh girl who will be engaged to an ismaili afghan. I too came across the same questions as you.... I didn't really receive too many answers though, as no one really heard of too many inter-religious marriages such as sikh with a muslim or hindu with a muslim. I have no problems converting as I tried to find out the full history on islam before I took the step to just convert for marriage. I didn't want to just convert only because of marriage.... but now that I have read several books and spoken with as many ppl as I could regarding islam and the religion, I truly want to convert within my heart. My bf's parents are aware that I am converting and are happy with that, my parents on the other hand are slowly accepting the fact that I will no matter what. Therefore I don't know if it is right or wrong (neither does his family), but as long as I am muslim than Yes I can marry an Ismaili (that is the understanding that his parents have given me). I am in search of ppl who have converted into islam and could give me any advice and maybe tell me a little about your experience. Thanks and God bless. icon_biggrin.gif
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5906

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can marry an Ismaili regardless of what religion you are from. You can keep your faith and marry and Ismaili, but of course if you believe in your heart that you want to become Ismaili you can convert.

In Islam marriage is not a religious act as fr example in Christianity, it is a social contract. Therefore an Ismaili can marry outside his religion, even to non-Muslim.

Hope this clears the misunderstanding.

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sampatel5



Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:17 pm    Post subject: Marriage to Non Ismailis Reply with quote

This is a very curly question to ask especially for people living in Western socities.What does a parent do?Does the parent let his child out of his life forever if he/she says no or say yes and have their child with them.In my opinion it is a very easy question to answer,how strong is your Iman.If your child insists then please let him/her marry outside but then it is up to you how you present your religion to the outsider which will compell them to change their mind.Dont forget as your child faces opposition from your Jamaat the other child also faces the same severe opposition from their family and friends.We tend to look at this issue from just our point of view but think of the other side of the coin as well.As you have hopes for your child so do the other parents.<BR>Then again it is as Mowla has deceided for them.Who are we mere grains of sand o&shy;n the beach of this world arguing about what has already been decieded by Mowla.So be firm in your Iman and present your way as best as you can within your limited capabilities and leave the rest to Mowla.May he grant them wisdom and see the light.<BR>Hazar Imam always insists that we should be ambassadors of Islam to the world.If you follow this farameen then you will find answers.YAM
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:36 am    Post subject: Re: Marriage with Non-Ismaili Reply with quote

pun_girl wrote:
I am a punjabi/sikh girl who will be engaged to an ismaili afghan. I too came across the same questions as you.... I didn't really receive too many answers though, as no one really heard of too many inter-religious marriages such as sikh with a muslim or hindu with a muslim. I have no problems converting as I tried to find out the full history on islam before I took the step to just convert for marriage. I didn't want to just convert only because of marriage.... but now that I have read several books and spoken with as many ppl as I could regarding islam and the religion, I truly want to convert within my heart. My bf's parents are aware that I am converting and are happy with that, my parents on the other hand are slowly accepting the fact that I will no matter what. Therefore I don't know if it is right or wrong (neither does his family), but as long as I am muslim than Yes I can marry an Ismaili (that is the understanding that his parents have given me). I am in search of ppl who have converted into islam and could give me any advice and maybe tell me a little about your experience. Thanks and God bless. icon_biggrin.gif


So you want to convert to Islam first and then to ismaili?

I think converting to Ismailism takes care of both.

Wish you all the best.

Shams
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smiles22



Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:14 am    Post subject: similiar question Reply with quote

I am currently in a serious relationship with a Hindu man. He is not all that religious and we have spoken about marriage on many occassions. I am a dedicated ismaili and as a woman want my children and husband to go with me to khane. He has said he is willing to learn about Ismailism and convert- however, he feels that he still wants to keep his Hindu religious b/c that is waht makes him him. And i completely understand. As a result he said if we should marry each other he would want me to learn about his religion as well and on rare occasions attend temple with him. I do notmind b/c i know what i am and I will never forsake my ismaili religion. Is this possible- can a non-ismaili convert and yet still attend their respective religions just for the sake of the concept that that is what they were born into? *confused*
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have visited temples, church, Gurdwara but that not made me non ismaili. Main thing is your belief.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:10 am    Post subject: Re: similiar question Reply with quote

smiles22 wrote:
I am currently in a serious relationship with a Hindu man. He is not all that religious and we have spoken about marriage on many occassions. I am a dedicated ismaili and as a woman want my children and husband to go with me to khane. He has said he is willing to learn about Ismailism and convert- however, he feels that he still wants to keep his Hindu religious b/c that is waht makes him him. And i completely understand. As a result he said if we should marry each other he would want me to learn about his religion as well and on rare occasions attend temple with him. I do notmind b/c i know what i am and I will never forsake my ismaili religion. Is this possible- can a non-ismaili convert and yet still attend their respective religions just for the sake of the concept that that is what they were born into? *confused*


Forsake the Ismaili faith???
I am sorry..i find that to be very blasphemous..
on the one hand..you claim to be a dedicated ismaili....and yet you forget what Ismailism is..
Complete and total submission to the Shah/Pir of the time.
Farman of the pir in a very simple ginan.

"Apni Naath Chodi Par Nathe Vevar na Kijiye".

Whilst I am happy to see that he isn't going to convert for the sake of marrying you (which is a lot of what i see these days, non ismailies converting, not because they have faith in Hazar Imam, but because they're married to an Ismaili and the only way they could marry that person was if they converted - that is a form of hypocrisy in my book) but
I have been following the Shemina Hirji Incident in Vancouver and am very saddened to hear that it could be a honor killing by her new husband's family who it is also rumored had their own daughter's throat slit in India for marrying out of the caste.
I have also been aware of other such incidents in our communities all across the world.
I've had a cousin shot because he wanted to get married to a sikh girl who was ready to convert, her family did not approve..so shot him.
We have ismaili girls in Dar Es Salaam marrying Ithna Asheri and Hindu boys almost every other month because they claim that the Non Ismaili boys are better able to provide financially for them.
But this is my opinion.
As MHI said in the 70's (and i paraphrase) what was once unacceptable is now tolerated and may soon become acceptable..i guess we're heading down that path.

Shams
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad Shams,
Can you tell about the incident you quoted : I have been following the Shemina Hirji Incident in Vancouver and am very saddened to hear that it could be a honor killing by her new husband's family who it is also rumored had their own daughter's throat slit in India for marrying out of the caste
And also explain more about this :
As MHI said in the 70's (and i paraphrase) what was once unacceptable is now tolerated and may soon become acceptable..i guess we're heading down that path.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Memoirs of Aga Khan

"As a good muslim I have never asked a christian to change her religion in order to marry Me, for the Islamic belief is that christians and jews and according to some tenets, zoroastrians and reformed hindu unitarians may marry muslims and retain their own religion. With no attempt on My part at influencing her mind, My present wife had already been converted to Islam while she lived in Cairo."
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khus



Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:31 pm    Post subject: My sitiuation -- thoughts welcomed Reply with quote

I have been spiritual and religious all my life but I could never relate to the other kids in JK. I had a friend for four years and he was a non-ismaili.

He had an interest in the Imam and wrote book reports on him for school assignments. He was my best friend. We started dating and fell in love. I knew him very well. Before getting married I knew he wasn't ready to convert just yet but I knew he would when he was ready. It was something he said he always wanted to do.

We did discuss religion and children prior to marrying. He was perfectly content with our children being Ismaili.

A year into the marriage he was ready to go through the process and I am glad he has made this decision on his own. My parents are worried about the social ramifications of this since a select few know we have married. My parents like my husband. He didn't practice a faith prior to this but his grandparents are sadden because he didn't take up Christianity. but both of our parents are happy for us.

I don't feel I am wrong for marrying a non-ismaili. It has strengthen my faith and renewed his. If this is his destiny to serve Allah, then who am I to reject the will of Allah.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:17 pm    Post subject: Re: My sitiuation -- thoughts welcomed Reply with quote

khus wrote:
I have been spiritual and religious all my life but I could never relate to the other kids in JK. I had a friend for four years and he was a non-ismaili.

He had an interest in the Imam and wrote book reports on him for school assignments. He was my best friend. We started dating and fell in love. I knew him very well. Before getting married I knew he wasn't ready to convert just yet but I knew he would when he was ready. It was something he said he always wanted to do.

We did discuss religion and children prior to marrying. He was perfectly content with our children being Ismaili.

A year into the marriage he was ready to go through the process and I am glad he has made this decision on his own. My parents are worried about the social ramifications of this since a select few know we have married. My parents like my husband. He didn't practice a faith prior to this but his grandparents are sadden because he didn't take up Christianity. but both of our parents are happy for us.

I don't feel I am wrong for marrying a non-ismaili. It has strengthen my faith and renewed his. If this is his destiny to serve Allah, then who am I to reject the will of Allah.



This is a prime instance where we are having the FAITH follow us versus US FOLLOW THE FAITH.

Whilst I am glad that he is converting...but god forbid..what happens if the marraige ends next year...will he still practise ismailism?
or is he in the process of hoodwinking mowlana hazar imam by taking a false baiyat?

I have seen many non ismailies become ismailies not out of CONVICTION..but out of CONVIENENCE..
(Farman of MHI - Ours is a Faith of Conviction..not one of convienence).
There are many instances, where folks become Ismailies from the Hindu Faith, or the Ithna Asheri Faith or even Sunni Islam or Christianity..and even whilst in the process of conversion..I have known them to attend the Imambaras or Church or the Hindu Temple..in a few situations it was after they were a "full fledged ismaili" and members of a majilis.

One thing all ismailies need to always keep in mind, that We have given Tan, Man and Dhan to the Imam of the time. As per the Ismaili/Muslim tenets...a Man can marry from the People of the book i.e. Jews, Christians and Other Muslims, a Woman can marry from the People of the House (Ahle Bayt) Only Other muslims..
and as our Tan, Man and Dhan belongs to the Imam, any steps taken outside the PANTH need to be blessed by him.
Did you think of asking his permission to marry?...

I hope and pray that your husband is one that is going to view the ISMAILI FAITH AS ONE OF CONVICTION over CONVIENECE and is not hoodwinking Mowlana Hazar Imam.

Shams
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

star_munir wrote:
Ya Ali Madad Shams,
Can you tell about the incident you quoted : I have been following the Shemina Hirji Incident in Vancouver and am very saddened to hear that it could be a honor killing by her new husband's family who it is also rumored had their own daughter's throat slit in India for marrying out of the caste
And also explain more about this :
As MHI said in the 70's (and i paraphrase) what was once unacceptable is now tolerated and may soon become acceptable..i guess we're heading down that path.


Ya Ali Madad Munir,

The details are slowly emerging on Shemina Hirji's new husband..Navindaur Paul Cheema, who is 34 years old, and has had a criminal past that is now coming into sight, it seems that no one even Shemina bothered to check him out thoroughly before marrying him, he had been convicted of kidnapping and death threats and had been in jail in Manitoba - he had threatened his fiancee at the time and had attempted to kidnap her on more than one occasion. What surprises me is that Shemina was a highly educated woman, and yet she seems to have made an error in judgement - it now becomes a secondary question as to what the motive behind the murder was.
The second question that arises in my mind, the intruders were so vicious that they killed Shemina, however the husband was only slightly injured, he was released on the same day from the hospital. If you were an intruder, who would you go after first? and why so savagely?

Anyways on to your next query....

The paraphrasing is from the Seerat Conference of 1976 held in Karachi, here is the exact quote:

"I have observed in the Western world a deeply changing pattern of human relations. The anchors of moral behaviour appear to have dragged to such depths that they no longer hold firm the ship of life. What was once wrong is now simply unconventional, and for the sake of individual freedom must be tolerated. What is tolerated soon becomes accepted. Contrarily, what was once right is now viewed as outdated, old-fashioned and is often the target of ridicule.

In the face of this changing world, which was once a universe to us and is now no more than an overcrowded island, confronted with a fundamental challenge to our understanding of time, surrounded by a foreign fleet of cultural and ideological ships which have broken loose, I ask, "Do we have a clear, firm and precise understanding of what Muslim Society is to be in times to come?" And if as I believe, the answer is uncertain, where else can we search then in the Holy Quran, and in the example of Allah's last and final Prophet?"

I am running into situations with our current ismaili Youth, to whom smoking Hookah and smoking and pot and alcohol use are all normal and acceptable as it is a norm in the Western World - doing as the Romans do.
I see parents accepting it because now we have become "liberated" and "educated" members of society and we fear being shunned and ostracized when we don't indulge in the ills of the Western Society..there is another Farman of London 1978 I believe (also a canadian farman) where MHI is very specific in telling us to stay away from these ills..however that is a farman we choose not to acknowledge it seems.

Premarital Sex and promiscuity is also on the rise in our community, not to forget extramarital affairs....Is this the way of Islam? is this the culture we brought over with us from India and Pakistan and Africa? or are we so engrossed with melding with the Western World that Our culture and our tradition and our customs are outdated and of no use to us.


We have reached a point where our youth don't even speak our own language....they don't seem to understand the ginans in Jamat Khana nor the Dua. They aren't able to grasp or communicate with the older generations, and in some instances their own parents....what are we heading towards?? English Ginans, Rap Songs? English Qasidahs?


MHI in recent years has been giving blessings for UNITY in THE FAMILY..>WHY?<, in his Golden Jubilee Address - he addressed a concern about the Elderly in Our community....where their own offspring are ostracising them and putting them in homes....

our youth is getting the wrong message and we are enforcing that message by not educating them or taking any action....

Sorry for going on a tangent...These days I am having major issues with folks that practise Ismailism out of convience versus conviction..when we have given Baiyat to the Imam to follow his Farmans unequivocally - there is NO QUESTIONING IN ISMAILISM...we seem to picking and choosing what we want to follow depending our mood and our needs....

as MSMS stated : AME DIVAS KAHIYE TO DIVAS ANE AME RAAT KAHIYE TO RAAT

Ya Ali Madad.

Shams
NOT SHAMSHU
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19634

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

July 16, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
Preparing for a Broken Home
By JAMES ANDREW MILLER

A FRIEND from business school, just engaged, boasted recently not about the virtues of his wife-to-be but about the Byzantine process he and she had gone through in constructing what he considered the finest of prenuptial agreements, as if there were some sort of poetry in the laborious detail involved in dividing assets and wealth. Months earlier, another friend, who had separated from her husband, told me she’d decided to go back with him, but only after the two of them had constructed a “post-nup” that left no doubt as to how their finances would be divided should they break up again.

I suppose both kinds of agreements are understandable in an era when so many marriages fail, but it seems sadly clear to me that both couples, for all their meticulous planning, had overlooked and ignored the most important point of all. Dividing up money and assets after a marriage falls apart can be a mess, but it’s often nothing compared with the agony and emotional torment of a custody battle — dividing up the children. Money is, after all, only money — you can make it back, you can do with less of it if you need to, you can even file for bankruptcy. But children are not commodities that can be replaced.

Thus, a proposal, based on observation and my own recent experience of divorce: Engaged couples should enter into a new kind of arrangement, one that has nothing to do with houses or cars or the Warhol on the wall but focuses on any children born of the marriage. If two people can contemplate, before they ever marry, the possibility of what Walter Winchell called “splitsville” and agree in advance how they would divide assets, they ought to also be able to make sane arrangements for dividing time with their children.

For divorced parents, the financial equation is set as soon as the court or the arbitrator signs the order. Bank accounts, investments and pensions are divided, and child support and alimony are assigned. While it is true that support can be altered based on changing circumstances, most financial cases are settled, and lives go on. Judges generally adhere to common formulas for how the property should be divided, so it’s possible to anticipate how your financial life will look after the marriage.

In the world of child custody, however, there are few certainties.

Two friends of mine who went through divorce recently were told that their soon-to-be-former spouses were “willing” to give them visiting rights every other weekend, plus one overnight stay per week. (The idea of “visiting” one’s own children, when it first comes up, can be terribly jarring.) Both were outraged and each has started what promises to be a long, expensive and emotionally draining court battle for more of the children’s time.

Such battles are often waged before judges who have unpredictable points of view about child custody. There are so many different types of custody schedules and ways of calculating what’s fair to parents and children alike, that fathers, especially, stand a good chance of getting stuck with a plan they don’t like — one that leaves them feeling like a second-class parent. Given crowded court schedules and a shortage of judges to hear cases, many custody battles can take up to a year or more to reach a conclusion.

Once a case is finally heard, neither parent can be certain of legal precedent or anything else that might steer the proceedings toward a mutually agreeable outcome. A custody evaluator or a judge can never understand a family’s situation or individual children as well as the parents themselves do. Some couples have found that by the time the court has heard their custody case, many of the precious dollars divided between them in their prenup have found their way to the lawyers.

Absent a pre-arranged custody plan, the children in a divorce almost always start one custody schedule and then, once a court order is signed, must adapt to a new one. Worse, they may find themselves being used by one side or the other (or both) as bargaining chips or even strategic weapons.

For a parent, being without one’s children at such a time, and having to watch from the sidelines as they are overtaken by anxiety and uncertainty, can make the custody battle by far the most traumatic aspect of the divorce experience.

With a custody schedule outlined before marriage, children could have a single structure for their new lives from the moment their parents separate. They would know where they will be and when, they wouldn’t have to witness their parents arguing about the details, and they might not be subjected to custody evaluations or, worse, be required to testify in court.

In some states, pre-arranged custody schedules might not hold up in court, and one parent or the other might argue that circumstances have changed too much since they entered the agreement. Even then, though, an agreement could serve as a great starting point for negotiations.

Most of the pain involved in my own divorce would have been reduced by some kind of agreement before marriage detailing a custody schedule for children. I was fortunate enough to secure joint custody of my three children. But I would say to any two people contemplating a future together that however icy it may seem on the surface to include children’s lives in legalistic affairs, a little coldness at the outset could help prevent glacially slow wars — wars directly involving the children — later on.

Besides, conversations about custody between two newly engaged people could give them both a window on what their future spouse will be like — and what he or she will expect as a parent. For a couple contemplating children, it is never too early to start discussing parenting roles.

Packing up the children’s backpacks and preparing them to be picked up by a former spouse can be agonizing even in the best of circumstances. Even a prenup that outlines a custody schedule could never change that. But it could at least shield children from unnecessary pain and relieve some of the hurt for the parents.

James Andrew Miller is the author of “Running in Place: Inside the Senate” and co-author of “Live From New York: An Uncensored History of Saturday Night Live.”
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mowla Ali Madad Shams and thanks for the details about the incident.

I dont believe that Jews and Christians are Ahle-kitab. As per what I think, generally muslims have idea that Islam is the only true religion, the religion of Christians and Jews were also religion of Allah and He revealed books on them but got corrupted and other religions are just man made. But I do not agree with it.

In verse 70 of Moman Chetamni Syed Imam Shah says, "All the religions that have been created, they all have Ali as their solvent. Hindu or Muslim may stay true to their principles, but in fact, there is only one God and that is Ali."
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

star_munir wrote:
Mowla Ali Madad Shams and thanks for the details about the incident.

I dont believe that Jews and Christians are Ahle-kitab. As per what I think, generally muslims have idea that Islam is the only true religion, the religion of Christians and Jews were also religion of Allah and He revealed books on them but got corrupted and other religions are just man made. But I do not agree with it.

In verse 70 of Moman Chetamni Syed Imam Shah says, "All the religions that have been created, they all have Ali as their solvent. Hindu or Muslim may stay true to their principles, but in fact, there is only one God and that is Ali."


Munir -

Just to update you - they have named the husband of shemina as a suspect in her murder..it was also reported that when he was arrested..he was planning to leave the country.

on the other front...As per the Muslim Doctrine, Jews and Christians are considered Ahl Kitab..and Males are permited to marry from those faiths.

Shams
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19634

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

July 16, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
When 3 Really Is a Crowd
By ELIZABETH MARQUARDT
Chicago

SOMETIMES when the earth shudders it doesn’t make a sound. That’s what happened in Harrisburg, Pa., recently.

On April 30, a state Superior Court panel ruled that a child can have three legal parents. The case, Jacob v. Shultz-Jacob, involved two lesbians who were the legal co-parents of two children conceived with sperm donated by a friend. The panel held that the sperm donor and both women were all liable for child support. Arthur S. Leonard, a professor at New York Law School, observed, “I’m unaware of any other state appellate court that has found that a child has, simultaneously, three adults who are financially obligated to the child’s support and are also entitled to visitation.”

The case follows a similar decision handed down by a provincial court in Ontario in January. In what appeared to be the first such ruling in any Western nation, the court ruled that a boy can legally have three parents. In that case the biological mother and father had parental rights and wished for the biological mother’s lesbian partner, who functions as the boy’s second mother, to have such rights as well.

The idea of assigning children three legal parents is not limited to North America. In 2005, expert commissions in Australia and New Zealand proposed that sperm or egg donors be allowed to “opt in” as a child’s third parent. That same year, scientists in Britain received state permission to create an embryo from the DNA of three adults, raising the real possibility that they all could be granted equal legal claims to the child if the embryo developed to term.

Astonishingly, few legal experts, politicians or social commentators have considered the enormous risks these rulings and proposals pose for children. Those who have noticed tend to say they are nothing new, because many children already grow up with several parent figures. But this fails to recognize that stepchildren and adopted children still have only two legal parents.

Supporters of the rulings argue that if two parents are good for children, aren’t three better? True, some three-parent petitions are brought by adults who appear deeply committed to the child in question. In the Ontario case, the two women and the father all seem devoted to the boy. But in Pennsylvania, the sperm donor, whom the children called “Papa,” was ordered to pay child support over his objections, and the lesbian co-mothers have already ended their relationship.

What is the harm if other American courts follow Pennsylvania’s example? For one thing, three-parent situations typically involve a couple and a third person living separately, meaning the child will get shuffled between homes, and this raises problems.

A few years ago, along with Norval Glenn, a sociologist at the University of Texas, I compiled the first nationwide study of children who grow up in so-called “good” divorces — that is, families in which both divorced parents stay involved in the child’s life and control their own conflict. We found that even these children must grow up traveling between two worlds, having to make sense on their own of the different values, beliefs and ways of living they find in each home. They have to grow up too soon. When a court assigns a child several parents, some of whom never intend to share a home, they consign that child, at best, to a “good” divorce situation.

Of course, sometimes the three adults might want to live together, which leads to a different set of concerns. As one advocate of polygamy argued in Newsweek, “If Heather can have two mommies, she should also be able to have two mommies and a daddy.” If more children are granted three legal parents, what is our rationale for denying these families the rights and protections of marriage? America, get ready for the group-marriage debate.

And these are merely the worries if the three parents cooperate. But, as the Pennsylvania case shows, they may not. Conflicts will undoubtedly arise when three parents confront the sticky, conflict-ridden reality of child-raising, often leading to a nasty, three-way custody battle. Even if they part amicably, they may still want to live in three different homes. In that case, how many homes should children travel between to satisfy the parenting needs of many adults?

Finally, why should courts stop at assigning children only three parents? Some situations involve a couple who wants the child, the sperm donor, the egg donor and the gestational surrogate who carries the pregnancy. If we allow three legal parents, why not five?

Fortunate children have many people who love them as much as their parents do. But in the best interests of children, no court should break open the rule of two when assigning legal parenthood.

Elizabeth Marquardt, a vice president of the Institute for American Values, is the author of the forthcoming “My Daddy’s Name Is Donor.”
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:
star_munir wrote:
Mowla Ali Madad Shams and thanks for the details about the incident.

I dont believe that Jews and Christians are Ahle-kitab. As per what I think, generally muslims have idea that Islam is the only true religion, the religion of Christians and Jews were also religion of Allah and He revealed books on them but got corrupted and other religions are just man made. But I do not agree with it.

In verse 70 of Moman Chetamni Syed Imam Shah says, "All the religions that have been created, they all have Ali as their solvent. Hindu or Muslim may stay true to their principles, but in fact, there is only one God and that is Ali."


Munir -

Just to update you - they have named the husband of shemina as a suspect in her murder..it was also reported that when he was arrested..he was planning to leave the country.

on the other front...As per the Muslim Doctrine, Jews and Christians are considered Ahl Kitab..and Males are permited to marry from those faiths.

Shams


thanks for the update.
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star_munir



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got to know this from Mr. XYZ and would like to share it with you.
( I would not like to mention the names)
A Ismaili girl from Mumbai fell in love with a hindu guy. Hindu boy also love the girl very much. Girl went to XYZ and cried and said she wish to marry only with Ismaili and the boy to whom she loves also wish from his heart to accept Ismailism so what to do? XYZ told her to give application in Tariqa board or do talk with members of Tariqa board so they may help you.
The application was not accepted either or the satisfactory answer was not given. Then XYZ himself went to Tariqa board to talk about it.
He told that the guy is nice and want to accept the faith.
He was given reply that it is not our policy.
XYZ asked hows that?
He was given reply that in past there were many incidents in which non ismailis pretended that they want to embrace Ismailism however their purpose was just to cause harm to ismailis or get information about Ismailism.
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star_munir



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Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XYZ replied that there are accidents on road also it not means that we should stop driving altogether. If that is the matter then you should do complete inquiry and then answer.
Love is blind and at this age people are usually very emotional and some times in dissapointment and frustrations they may do some thing which will be harmful for them also and their loss will also our loss.
He was given reply ok let her marry with Hindu. We dont reply the application so quickly. It may take several years in inquiry.
Girl was upset to hear this. She was in confustion what to do. As she can not wait for so many years in hope to get reply.
Girl married the hindu boy but as per Muslim traditions i.e, by Nikah and not saath pheras and hindu customs. Because they were told to do it in muslim style otherwise there may be problems for them as the guy had already given application for becoming Ismaili.
They are married and living happily. The guy gives dasond, say Ya Ali Madad but is not Ismaili officially.
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star_munir



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grandmother was pretending to be lost in prayer, but her prayer-beads were spinning at top speed. That meant she was either excited or upset.
Mother put the receiver down. "Some American girl in his office, she's coming to stay with us for a week." She sounded as if she had a deep foreboding.
Father had no such doubt. He knew the worst was to come.
He had been matching horoscopes for a year, but my brother Vivek had found a million excuses for not being able to visit India , call any of the chosen Iyer girls, or in any other way advance father's cause.
Father always wore four parallel lines of sacred ash on his forehead.
Now there were eight, so deep were the furrows of worry on his forehead. I sat in a corner, supposedly lost in a book, but furiously text-messaging my brother with a vivid description of the scene before me.


A few days later I stood outside the airport with father. He tried not to look directly at any American woman going past, and held up the card reading "Barbara". Finally a large woman stepped out, waved wildly and shouted "Hiiii! Mr. Aayyyezh, how ARE you?" Everyone turned and looked at us. Father shrank visibly before my eyes. Barbara took three long steps and covered father in a tight embrace. Father's jiggling out of it was too funny to watch. I could hear him whispering "Shiva Shiva!". She shouted "you must be Vijaantee?" "Yes, Vyjayanthi" I said with a smile. I imagined little half-Indian children calling me "Vijaantee aunty!". Suddenly,
my colorless existence in Madurai had perked up. For at least the next one week, life promised to be quite exciting.
Soon we were eating lunch at home. Barbara had changed into an even shorter skirt. The low neckline of her blouse was just in line with father's eyes.
He was glaring at mother as if she had conjured up Barbara just to torture him. Barbara was asking "You only have vegetarian food? Always??" as if the idea was shocking to her. "You know what really goes well with Indian food, especially chicken? Indian beer!" she said with a pleasant smile, seemingly oblivious to the apoplexy of the gentleman in front of her, or the choking sounds coming from mother. I had to quickly duck under the table to hide my giggles.Everyone tried to get the facts without asking the one question on all our minds: What was the exact nature of the relationship between Vivek and Barbara?

She brought out a laptop computer. "I have some pictures of Vivek" she said. All of us crowded around her. The first picture was quite innocuous.
Vivek was wearing shorts and standing alone on the beach. In the next photo, he had Barbara draped all over him. She was wearing a skimpy bikini and leaning across, with her hand lovingly circling his neck. Father got up, and flicked the towel off his shoulder. It was a gesture we in the family had learned to fear. He literally ran to the door and went out.
Barbara said "It must be hard for Mr. Aayyezh.
He must be missing his son." We didn't have the heart to tell her that if said son had been within reach, father would have lovingly wrung his neck.
My parents and grandmother apparently had reached an unspoken agreement.
They would deal with Vivek later. Right now Barbara was a foreigner, a lone woman, and needed to be treated as an honored guest. It must be said that Barbara didn't make that one bit easy. Soon mother wore a perpetual frown.
Father looked as though he could use some of that famous Indian beer.
Vivek had said he would be in a conference in Guatemala all week, and would be off both phone and email. But Barbara had long lovey-dovey conversations with two other men, one man named Steve and another named Keith. The rest of us strained to hear every interesting word. "I miss you!" she said to both. She also kept talking with us about Vivek, and about the places they'd visited together. She had pictures to prove it, too. It was all very confusing.

This was the best play I'd watched in a long time. It was even better than the day my cousin ran away with a Telugu Christian girl. My aunt had come howling through the door, though I noticed that she made it to the plushest sofa before falling in a faint. Father said that if it had been his child, the door would have been forever shut in his face. Aunt promptly revived and said "You'll know when it is your child!" How my aunt would rejoice if she knew of Barbara!

On day five of her visit, the family awoke to the awful sound of
Barbara's retching. The bathroom door was shut, the water was running, but far louder was the sound of Barbara crying and throwing up at the same time.
Mother and grandmother exchanged ominous glances. Barbara came out and her face was red. "I don't know why", she said, "I feel queasy in the mornings now." If she had seen as many Indian movies as I'd seen, she'd know why.
Mother was standing as if turned to stone. Was she supposed to react with the compassion reserved for pregnant women? With the criticism reserved for pregnant unmarried women? With the fear reserved for pregnant unmarried foreign women who could embroil one's son in a paternity suit?
Mother, who navigated familiar flows of married life with the skill of a champion oarsman, now seemed completely taken off her moorings.
She seemed to hope that if she didn't react it might all disappear
like a bad dream. I made a mental note to not leave home at all for the next week.Whatever my parents would say to Vivek when they finally got a-hold of him would be too interesting to miss. But they never got a chance. The day Barbara was to leave, we got a terse email from Vivek. "Sorry, still stuck in Guatemala . Just wanted to mention, another friend of mine, Sameera
Sheikh, needs a place to stay. She'll fly in from Hyderabad tomorrow at 10am . Sorry for the trouble."

So there we were, father and I, with a board saying "Sameera". At last a pretty young woman in salwar-khameez saw the board, gave the smallest of smiles, and walked quietly towards us. When she did 'Namaste' to father, I thought I saw his eyes mist up. She took my hand in the friendliest way and said "Hello, Vyjayanthi, I've heard so much about you." I fell in love with her. In the car father was unusually friendly. She and Vivek had been
in the same group of friends in Ohio University. She now worked as a Child Psychologist.
She didn't seem to be too bad at family psychology either. She took out a shawl for grandmother, a saree for mother and Hyderabadi bangles for me." Just some small things. I have to meet a professor at Madurai University and it's so nice of you to let me stay" she said. Everyone cheered up. Even grandmother smiled. At lunch she said "This is so nice. When I make sambar,
it comes out like chole, and my chole tastes just like sambar".
Mother was smiling. "Oh just watch for 2 days, you'll pick it up." Grandmother had never allowed a muslim to enter the kitchen.
But mother seemed to have taken charge, and decided she would bring in who ever she felt was worthy. Sameera circumspectly stayed out of the puja room, but on the third day, was stunned to see father inviting her in and telling her which idols had come to him from his father. "God is one" he said. Sameera nodded sagely.
By the fifth day, I could see the thought forming in the family's
collective brains. If this fellow had to choose his own bride, why
couldn't it be someone like Sameera? On the sixth day, when Vivek called from the airport saying he had cut short his Guatemala trip and was on his way home, all had a million things to discuss with him.
He arrived by taxi at a time when Sameera had gone to the University.
"So, how was Barbara's visit?" he asked blithely. "How do you know her?" mother asked sternly. "She's my secretary" he said. "She works very hard, and she'll do anything to help."
He turned and winked at me.

Oh, I got the plot now! By the time Sameera returned home that
evening, it was almost as if her joining the family was the elders' idea. "Don't
worry about anything", they said, "we'll talk with your parents."
On the wedding day a huge bouquet arrived from Barbara.
It said......


"Flight to India - $1500.
Indian kurta - $15.
Emetic to throw up - $1.
The look on your parents' faces - priceless" J
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:16 pm    Post subject: Re: similiar question Reply with quote

vasanji wrote:
ShamsB wrote:


Forsake the Ismaili faith???
I am sorry..i find that to be very blasphemous..
on the one hand..you claim to be a dedicated ismaili....and yet you forget what Ismailism is..
Complete and total submission to the Shah/Pir of the time.
Farman of the pir in a very simple ginan.

"Apni Naath Chodi Par Nathe Vevar na Kijiye".

Whilst I am happy to see that he isn't going to convert for the sake of marrying you (which is a lot of what i see these days, non ismailies converting, not because they have faith in Hazar Imam, but because they're married to an Ismaili and the only way they could marry that person was if they converted - that is a form of hypocrisy in my book) but
I have been following the Shemina Hirji Incident in Vancouver and am very saddened to hear that it could be a honor killing by her new husband's family who it is also rumored had their own daughter's throat slit in India for marrying out of the caste.
I have also been aware of other such incidents in our communities all across the world.
I've had a cousin shot because he wanted to get married to a sikh girl who was ready to convert, her family did not approve..so shot him.
We have ismaili girls in Dar Es Salaam marrying Ithna Asheri and Hindu boys almost every other month because they claim that the Non Ismaili boys are better able to provide financially for them.
But this is my opinion.
As MHI said in the 70's (and i paraphrase) what was once unacceptable is now tolerated and may soon become acceptable..i guess we're heading down that path.

Shams


Quote:

We have ismaili girls in Dar Es Salaam marrying Ithna Asheri and Hindu boys almost every other month because they claim that the Non Ismaili boys are better able to provide financially for them.


ShamsB, Here I am going to praise you for your frankness and use your
quoted statement for making a point by assuming a neutral point of view.

I see cooperation in JK exemplary. Many many good people. But I have
to tell you, indeed remind you of the Firman of Imam Sultan Mohammad
Shah that you khojas are jealous of each other ....

Why is it that the other community boys are better able to financially
provide for your girls ? Why is it that you are less capable than other?
It is because you do not cooperate. I have a lot of stories to tell but
not in public. If some council member or tariqa board person has the
shame and sense of responsibility, they contact me personally so that
I can tell them why you are where you are.

There is no lack of talent in the Ismaili community. We have a lot to give.
We have a lot to gain.

And if you dont rectify your situation soon enough, the Imam would find
followers from other communities. I will simply remind you of the
migration from Egypt to Iran where almost all the followers in Egypt
were shed and new started in Alamut and through the advance planned
missions to India and elsewhere.

Imam's firmans and example is quite clear. He works hard. He is frank
and humble. He is congenial. He is helpful. He thinks of others. True that
he has more resources, but each one of us has resources. If we dont have
cash, we may have a lot of ideas. It is not the Imam who is holding you
behind, it is you who are holding him behind. He praises you to encourage
you. But I am sure, he knows that you are not working as hard, as good
as you can. I dont want to mention specifics in the public, but I am telling
from a lot of experience.


Vasanji

Ya Ali Madad.

I am not in Dar es salaam btw..
however what i will say is that whilst on the one hand i agree with you..that we have no UNITY..no COOPERATION...are filled with intense envy and jealousy for our other ismaili brethern (a very khoja trait) and can not see anyone do better than us...but another thing that Hazar Imam keeps on pointing out..is POVERTY.
What is left in Dar es salaam, in the majority of the East African Ismaili Community is extremes..either the very rich..or the very poor..there is hardly a middle class left anymore....think of it this way...a family with a husband and a wife..husband barely educated beyond High School and Wife - at high school level...since they're from somewhat the old school..they have anywhere from 3-4 children...so the wife stays at home to raise the children..the husband makes about 400,000 shs a month...
House rent is 100,000 shs ...dasond is 50,000, school fees range from 80,000 per child to 100,000 per child...that isn't taking into account food or any other household expenses..this is the case across many many households in Tanzania. When sons finish Form 4..they rarely get good grades..as due to the financial situation at home..they haven't been able to study (you tell me..if you have an empty stomach...will you be able to concentrate on your education?).....and after form 4..they take a job working in someone's shop...at 200,000 shs per month..or a similar position.
If someone is bright..god forbid they belong to a poor family..because chances for further education are slim to nil...
this is what Hazar Imam refers to when He constantly mentions enabling environments...when He reminds those of us that are well off to help our poor brethern in the spirit of islam.
Charity begins at home....

If you go to Dar es salaam - as I had the opportunity to do so after a period of 10 years..you will be astounded to see the progress made by the Ithna Asheri Community...there are buildings and flats put up for their community members...their schools are on the upswing....even the Bohoras are progressing...

I agree with you in that We have NO unity....however are we doing anything about it..are we in the WEST..helping those in need...are we reaching out..
or are we saying..well..they don't cooperate...so we're not going to do anything about it...how are we improving the situation.
I am willing to work with people to put together a fund of sorts to help students and senior citizens in east africa cope..
just in Dar es salaam..we have a widow house on Darkhana premises that would love to get some help from us...there are folks living in the old resthouse across from Darkhana who have also been forsaken by their families....(most of whom now live in the WEST)....we can help them if we so desire..$10 a month goes a long way.

Sorry to ramble..but Tanzania has also faced a huge amount of braindrain..the majority of ismailies that come to the west on student visas do not return to tanzania to help build tanzania..i too am guilty of that....that is one reason we have been lagging behind.

Ya Ali Madad

ShamsB
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

September 20, 2007
25th Anniversary Mark Elusive for Many Couples
By SAM ROBERTS
Don’t stock up on silver anniversary cards. More than half the Americans who might have celebrated their 25th wedding anniversaries since 2000 were divorced, separated or widowed before reaching that milestone, according to the latest census survey, released yesterday.

For the first time at least since World War II, women and men who married in the late 1970s had a less than even chance of still being married 25 years later.

“We know that somewhere between 40 percent and 50 percent of marriages dissolve,” said Barbara Risman, executive officer of the Council on Contemporary Families, a research group. “Now, when people marry, everyone wonders, is this one of those marriages that will be around for awhile.”

But David Blankenhorn, president of the Institute for American Values, a marriage research and advocacy group, said he was struck that the percentage of people who celebrated their 15th anniversary had declined. “This seems to be saying more recent marriages are more fragile,” Mr. Blankenhorn said.

About 80 percent of first marriages that took place in the late 1950s lasted at least 15 years. Among people who married in the late 1980s for the first time, however, only 61 percent of the men and 57 percent of the women were married 15 years later.

Among currently married women, non-Hispanic whites were the only group in which a majority had marked their 15th anniversary.

The survey by the Census Bureau, in 2004, confirmed that most Americans eventually marry, but they are marrying later and are slightly more likely to marry more than once.

Those trends continued, although the latest numbers suggest an uptick in the divorce rate among people married in the most recent 20 years covered in the report, 1975-1994. The proportion of all Americans who have been divorced, about one in five, remained constant, however.

“Basically, it looks like we’re pretty much holding steady,” said Rose Kreieder, a Census Bureau demographer. “There are not radical differences.”

The survey of the civilian, non-institutionalized population found a number of disparities on the basis of race and ethnicity.

Among men over 15, the percentage who have never been married was 45 percent for blacks, 39 percent for Hispanics, 33 percent for Asians and 28 percent for whites.

Among women over 15, it was 44 percent for blacks, 30 percent for Hispanics, 23 percent for Asians and 22 percent for whites.

Among Americans married in the 1950s, about 70 percent were still married by their 25th anniversary. Only 49.5 percent of men and 46.4 percent of women who married in the late 1970s were married 25 years later.

In 2004, among people in their late 20s, a majority of men — 54 percent — had never married, and 41 percent of women had not. In 1996, the comparable figures were 49 percent among men and 35 percent among women.

In the latest analysis of people age 15 and older, 58 percent of women and 54 percent of men had married only once. In 1996, the figures were about 60 percent for women and 54 percent for men.

One statistical constant has been the so-called seven-year itch, as popularized in the 1950s play and film about errant husbands. Couples who separate do so, on average, after seven years and divorce after eight. The duration of first marriages that end in divorce appears to have increased slightly among men.

Among adults 25 and older who had been divorced, 52 percent of men and 44 percent of women were currently married.

On average, people who marry again typically do so in about three-and-a-half years. Second marriages that end in divorce last about 8.6 years for men and 7.2 years for women.

In 2004, 12 percent of men and 13 percent of women had married twice. Three percent each had married three or more times.

The oldest baby boomers recorded the highest divorce rates. Among people in their 50s, 38 percent of men and 41 percent of women had been divorced. In 1996, the comparable figures were 36 percent and 35 percent.

One factor that also affects the marriage trends is that people are living longer. As a result, the median age at which women in a first marriage were widowed rose from 57.8 in 1996 to 60.3 in 2004. Among men, the median age increased from 59.6 to 61.3.

Census results released last week also confirmed the finding by demographers earlier this year that more American women were living without a husband than with one. Among women 20 and older, 51.2 percent said that they were divorced, separated or their spouse was temporarily absent or that they had never been married when the American Community Survey was taken in 2006.
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