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Marriages
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

star_munir wrote:
What do I think is that one can not be ismaili and nonismaili at the same time.
One can not follow Islam and Christanity both religions and follow the both at same time as both are different from each other. Thats true Muslims as well as chirstians both believe Jesus but the concept is totally different.
Its not possible that a child recite Dua and Ginan in Jk than on Sunday go to Church for worship.
If you are thinking that child will have freedom to have any religion than this will confuse the child as he or she will not be mature enough to select it and if you think when child will mature than he or she will accept any religion so what before that? Will he or she without any religion till that period of time?


I am in agreement with Star Munir, because one can't be an ismaili and a non ismaili at the same time...
when one takes baiyat one chooses to follow the Imam with tan, man and dhan..and we have numerous farmans of the imam telling us to follow him and him only...we can't say..i'll try this and try that and whichever leads me to salvation i'll follow..
not only that..christianity esp catholocism accepts christ as the son of god ..visavis god himself..and as muslims..as ismailies we are taught that christ couldn't have been the son of god..let alone god...due to the human concept of father/son not being at the level of allah...(farman of the imam)..and then there is the catholic issue of revering Mary...whilst we accept mary...the mother of christ as a "sati"...we can't attach the same reverence to her..and don't worship her..
think of the confusion that the child will experience..
and once one gives baiyat..one can't follow anyone else...and without giving baiyat one can't come into jamatkhana...
someone mentioned that ismailies don't forbid intercaste marraiges..i believe..( I could be wrong) that for one to marry outside the faith..one needs permission and blessing from mowlana hazar imam before doing that since we are his spiritual children and murids..
i know that it is permissible for Ismaili/Muslim Men to marry women from Ahl Kitab..(the people of the book) i.e. christians, jews and other muslims...
however for Ismaili/Muslim women..they can only marry other muslims...

Also we have a very simple ginan ..Gat maahe avine..
where the verse states:
"Apni Naath Chodi, Par Nathe Vevar na kije"...

i should be the last person typing this..as i live where there are no ismaili women to speak of..so i don't know what i'll do when it comes time to get married..
to Visitor..I am sorry that your marraige to an ismaili didn't work...but not all ismaili men are like that..so please don't stereotype us with that paint brush..i wish you all the best.

Shams.
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Visitor



Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAM Shams and Star Munir,

My kids are not going to receive Baiyat until they decide they want to. As for Confusion of faith, it's better to get right answers then be taught how to hate the other religions or casts. Or mislead by wrong information just because the parents don’t understand other peoples faith. My husband and myself will provide them with answers as truthfully as you can.

As for worshipping Mother Mary, She was a mother or a Prophet, as How Bibi Fatima was. We respect her in no different way as Christians respect Bibi Fatima. They emphasis that women should be more respected and loved and treated as equal. Even we believe that Mothers are second best to God. I don't believe that Christians believe in Mother Mary as God and that's why they Worship her. They pray to her to ask favors from God. Like how my grandmaa used to tell me to pray to Bibi Fatima because she was Prophet Muhamad's Favorite.

One way we are taught that God doesn't have children but the other way we are told that we all are God's children. Some with special powers and some not. We all have Noor, be it an Ismailis or Plants. God put his breath in us and that's how human's where created. Numerous places in Quran mentions this too. Some of us believe Mowla Bapa is God himself, some of us believe that he has Allah's Noor and he is representing him. Some Christians believe Jesus to be God and some believe that he represents God, he is the means to get to God. In either cases both religions believe in same God/Allah in different forms.

As I mentioned earlier, We create the differences and create different religions. Allah wanted one true religion and he sent different prophets to different parts of this world, with his messages. People made religions based on different Prophets.

Ismailism is now very open and everything is on the Net... Starting from Dua to ginans to Firmans. If one wants to find, they can find anything they want related to Ismailism. As I had mentioned earlier that just because you come to khane morning and night, achieve big big Hoda's in khane, doesn't make you a perfect Ismaili or a Human. I will pray to Allah that my Kids learn to Love and respect all and not try to hurt others.

I am sorry if my initial email sounds like I am discriminating against Ismaili Man. :-) I don't. My Chacha's Mama's and My Father, are all Ismailis. I love them very dearly and I would never think that all Ismaili Man are same as one. I fell in Love with a Man who is not Ismaili, I married him with Mukhi Sahebs blessings and I am happy. Shukhar! I would not decide any other way just because he is not Ismaili. If one is happy, one can make others happy and try to follow Hakikati road of life.

YAM

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al-azhar



Joined: 30 Oct 2004
Posts: 52
Location: Burnaby, B.C. Canada

PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:39 pm    Post subject: Bayat now? Reply with quote

Let the kids reject the Bayat when they can make their own decision. Taking the Bayat to the Imam now means a lot them then you think. It is something they can decide later in their lives as to what it means. Then they can make their own decision.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:16 am    Post subject: The current Isa Reply with quote

one of the titles that is given to our current Imam is

"Isa-e-Zaman"

The Isa of the time.

All christians do pray to our Imam without knowing it of course.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Visitor wrote:
YAM Shams and Star Munir,

My kids are not going to receive Baiyat until they decide they want to. As for Confusion of faith, it's better to get right answers then be taught how to hate the other religions or casts. Or mislead by wrong information just because the parents don’t understand other peoples faith. My husband and myself will provide them with answers as truthfully as you can.

YAM

Visitor


YAM

If they aren't going to receive Baiyat..than they can't come into Jamat Khana and practice Ismailism...as we all know in order for one to come inside jamatkhana whilst prayers are going on you have to be an Ismaili..you have to take an oath to the imam.

you can't be an ismaili on a trial basis icon_smile.gif
I am not saying that what you are doing is wrong..and don't mean to offend..all i am try to say is that be careful because i have friends that have tried this approach..and it hasn't worked....
we as ismailies accept that all other faiths to lead to god...
the christian faith doesn't...and that's going to cause a dilemma in their minds..on the one hand you will take pains to educate them on the ismaili faith..and then they'll to to sunday school and get an opposing view..
the majority of the ismaili faith is practised as a batini faith..the internet doesn't suffice for that..yes it provides information but that's about it...
our faith is very personal..it is individualisitic..only the practice of it is communal..each one of us has a unique connection to the Noor ...that isn't replicated in any other faith...in order for us to achieve salvation we have to earn it..in the christian faith salvation is very easy..just accept christ...
I wish you the best of luck.

Shams.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19270

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:02 pm    Post subject: Bayat and Intermarriage Reply with quote

Doing Bayat does not necessarily make someone a good Ismaili. How many Ismailis really are faithful to the Bayat?

On the other hand we have many examples of individuals who converted to Ismailism through personal quest and who have turned out to be good Ismailis. For example, Nasr Khusraw was not born an Ismaili but he adopted Ismailism after personal search and understanding.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, this is not an ideal situation. We are trying to make the best of the situation given that intermarriages are a reality.

Provided the parents have an understanding that the child will have the ultimate choice as she becomes old and understanding, I do not see that as being something impossible to work out if there is will and commitment on the part of the parents.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem here is that one can not be ismaili and nonismaili at the same time. Christians believe Jesus as son of God physically and according to ismailism we must repect every faith but that not means that we also worship and say prayers of other religion.
Example there are ismailis who believe Ram as Imam Pre Ali but you may not will see an ismaili asking prayers infront of idol of Ram in temple. Same is the case here. Ismailism believe in Alive Imam. We have Imam for Guidance. One can not follow two religions at same time. Thats correct that every religion teaches to do good and avoid bad work.Islam also teaches peace and love and so is christanity like it is in Bible "Love your enemies,do good to those who hate you,bless those who curse you,pray for those who mistreat you."
We may find many simlarities between Christanity and Islam. We may also celebrate their festivals inorder to have good relations and friendship but due to major difference in fundamental believes and concept we cant say that both are same or one can become Ismaili and Christian both at the same time. Its some thing thats impossible.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:45 am    Post subject: Re: Bayat and Intermarriage Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
Doing Bayat does not necessarily make someone a good Ismaili. How many Ismailis really are faithful to the Bayat?

On the other hand we have many examples of individuals who converted to Ismailism through personal quest and who have turned out to be good Ismailis. For example, Nasr Khusraw was not born an Ismaili but he adopted Ismailism after personal search and understanding.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, this is not an ideal situation. We are trying to make the best of the situation given that intermarriages are a reality.

Provided the parents have an understanding that the child will have the ultimate choice as she becomes old and understanding, I do not see that as being something impossible to work out if there is will and commitment on the part of the parents.


I don't think that the question star munir and I are raising is whether one is a good human being or a good ismaili or a bad ismaili by virtue of baiyat..
I think the question is whether you can be an ismaili and a catholic at the same time..and then choose when you grow up..i believe you can be taught about the ismaili faith..just like khusraw..who "adopted" the ismaili faith..i don't think you can practice 2 faiths at the same time..as Visitor is suggesting..we have been told in numerous farmans of MSMS that we shouldn't have 2 fathers...
Whilst as an ismaili i do believe all religions do lead to god and all religions preach good..i don't pray to other deities except the noor of allah...christianity on the other hand accepts and holds christ to be the son of god...
catholicism goes one step further it deitifies Mary..the mother of christ..(to your point Visitor)whom we also hold as holy and pure..but we don't pray to her...we accept her as a Sati and go from there..we also don't have jamat khanas with pictures of Bibi Fatima in them..or have a rosary to bibi fatima or have shrines all over the world to her where we go and pray to her....we pray to the Noor..or to the manifestation that would be Imam of the time.
Christianity accepts Christ as God incarnate..we don't..that is a huge conflict that you will be creating in your children's minds..
as an ismaili we are clear as to who is permitted in Jamat Khana during prayer times..those that have given baiyat..without your children giving baiyat are you going to bring them to jamat khana thus breaking a prime tenet of the faith?..we are a sufi tariqah to an extent and the oath of allegiance is the prime basis of membership..remember giving baiyat one says..I give tan, man and dhan to the imam..and it is the imam that has said in a farman
"Ismailism is a faith of CONVICTION not one of CONVIENENCE".
another example..catholicism or for that matter most forms of christianity permit the eating of pork which is haram in islam..how are you going to address that issue?...because that will come up..trust me i speak from experience...
Christianity preaches salvation to all that accept christ..
ismailism says salvation needs to be earned..how are you going address that?
I apologize if i offended anyone and for my bad spelling and punctuations...

Shams....
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19270

PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:42 am    Post subject: Re: Bayat and Intermarriage Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:

I don't think that the question star munir and I are raising is whether one is a good human being or a good ismaili or a bad ismaili by virtue of baiyat..
I think the question is whether you can be an ismaili and a catholic at the same time..and then choose when you grow up..i believe you can be taught about the ismaili faith..just like khusraw..who "adopted" the ismaili faith..i don't think you can practice 2 faiths at the same time..as Visitor is suggesting..we have been told in numerous farmans of MSMS that we shouldn't have 2 fathers...

YAM,

Visitor stated that the child will be baptised as a Christian and be exposed to Ismaili faith. This is just like we taking Bayat as Ismailis and being exposed to other faiths. I do not think that the Visitor meant practicing both faiths simultaneously.

Mind you we are talking of an infant. Hopefully as it grows and questions her beliefs, she will have an opportunity to compare the two faiths and then have the opportunity to decide which is the correct faith which will suit her intellectual, emotional and social outlook. In this process, the parental love and cooperation as well as their role model behaviour will be critical.
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Visitor



Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yam Everyone,

I am not offended at all. I have actually thought of all the questions that you've asked and many many more up to a point what happens if I die before they decide, if they decide, to become Ismaili or not.

The whole problem is that we have many differences, as you mentioned one - eating Pork, between us and Catholics. I don't eat Pork because I was told and taught it is Haram. I learnt later on that this is because Pigs are the dirtiest animals and carry many sicknesses. That made more sense to me in practical way then just accepting it blind foldedly that this is Haram. I will never be able to control, in this part of the world, for them not to eat pork. I know Many Ismaili kids and adults eating pork, drinking alcohol, playing "friendly Gambling" such as lotos, and smoking. All this is Haram in Ismailism and Islam. If one individual wants to do something, no matter how much you try and teach them as an ismaili or nonismaili, they will go ahead and do it.

I am sure we all can come up with million and one reasons why material things are important in life and forgetting the real spiritual aspect of it. Being Ismaili is an honor. How many of do really honor that? See, if I become like a horse who is only allowed to look in to one direction and concentrate on just Ismailism being the true religion and the rest are sinners. I will never find inner peace. I will be condemning others. I have chosen not to. I am keeping a broad mind and I am trying to be happy and let others be happy too.

If I see my Child never going in to drugs, stealing, drinking and becoming an alcoholic, gambling his/her life's earning away, be a hurtful and mean person who is selfish and centered... I will be satisfied.

If I see my child praying to God, Trying to do Good in Church or in the world, helps people in need, makes everyone laugh and spread love, I will consider any punishment from Allah as a blessing too. I will know that I have someone of my own who is nice and Loving. Not angry and hateful.

I might be jumping at different topics and I might not completely explain what I am trying to say. I am typing this at work. I will try better next time icon_smile.gif
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unnalhaq



Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:29 pm    Post subject: Marriages Reply with quote

It is very simple, there is no Mohammed with out Christ, and there is no Christ with out Abraham. At most of the time people forget that. It is the abundance of IGNORANCE and lack of INTELLECT. Also whatever happened to some thing called PLURALISM?

Last edited by unnalhaq on Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19270

PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: The current Isa Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
one of the titles that is given to our current Imam is

"Isa-e-Zaman"

The Isa of the time.

All christians do pray to our Imam without knowing it of course.

The following footnote in The Second Coming of Christ explains the meaning of Isa. It is believed that Jesus got this name from the wise men from India who visited him at the time of his birth. Nabi Isa also spent considerable period of his adolescense travelling in India.

In Pali (and in Sanskrit), Isa (pronounced ee-sha) means "lord, owner, ruler" - as does the related word Issara (Pali version of Ishvara)....

Jesus' name is pronounced and spelled in different ways in various languages, but it has the same meaning. In the Koran ( written in Arabic), the name used for Jesus is Isa or Issa - the same as in the Tibetian texts discovered by Notovitch. Only through changes by speakers in many lands did his name come to be pronounced Jesus. That English word is relatively modern; prior to the sixteenth century it was not spelled with a "J" but with an "I," as in Latin and Greek (Iesous). Even today, in Spanish, though spelled with a "J," Jesus is pronounced "Hay-soos."

The Biblical account, given in the Gospels of Luke and Mathew, is that both Mary and Joseph were instructed by an angel that the divine child was to be named Yeshua, "savior" (in Greek, Iesous; in English, Jesus): "....thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins" (Mathew 1:21). The Hebrew word Yeshua is a contraction of Yehoshua, "Yahweh (Jenovah, the Creator) is salvation." However, the language of daily use for Jesus and his fellow Galileans was not Hebrew, but the related dialect Aramaic, in which his name would have been pronounced "Eshu." Thus, strangely enough, the name predicted for Jesus by the angel, and given to him by his family, was remarkably akin to the more ancient Sanskrit name bestowed by the Wise Men. Aside from the phonetic similarities, there is an underlying unity of meaning of the words Isha and Yeshua - the two appellations bestowed on the one revered by millions as "Lord and Savior."
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Visitor



Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAM... I am back icon_cool.gif

I would like to say Shamsb that there is still nothing wrong having a place where people actually go to pray. Would I prefer to visit a Casino, Club, or a mall or even a dinner party where people are gossiping, as opposed to visiting a Holy Mary’s Shrine where you can actually see Love in people’s eyes? I would choose the shrine. Not because I am worshipping her, but I would say a Salwat or two for her and let "her be blessed by Allah again". As long as there is goodness existing in a place, God exists there too. I personally would love to see more people at places where they pray, pray to anyone, as long as they are praying and not hurting others or themselves.

Yes, Holy Mary is Glorified by Christians. I think all Mothers should be Glorified not only Mother Mary. Just because God Has given every mother a special power to give birth and bear all the pain. How many times do we go to our Mum and say that she is a miraculous Woman by being a mother?

Annalhaq has made a very good point. If people voluntarily seek knowledge and try to see past man made rules of religions, all religions are very similar and beautiful.

kmaherali... That's Great information! I never knew half of that. My husband read your notes and he also said that he has learnt quite a bit of that in his young days. Thanks for sharing!!

As for being an Ismaili and non-ismaili at the same time... Honestly, every person who is doing any good did, is doing Ibadat. You lift a broken glass from the Road so that it doesn't hurt anyone; you actually are doing Ibadat and worshiping God at that time. I remember this from my Mission Classes when I was young. Ibadat is Ibadat, Allah accepts everyone's Good deeds. These good deeds don't have religion attached to it. Our Du'a, Firmans, Ginan's and Quasidas teach us the same Ibadat concepts. The Most important thing is to be a nice person from inside. You can belong to any religion, but if you are a nice person, you are Allah's Momin.If you want to be a true Ismaili, change what's inside your heart then change what's outside. Everyone is part of Ismailism, some realize and some don't.

I know they won't come to khane... It's ok. Most of my cousin's..., don't want to go to khane be it morning or evening. And when they go, it's not purely for praying, But fashion, meeting people and and then some prayers. I will consider myself Luck if they even eat with us one meal a day so that we can say Shukhar together as a family.

As I mentioned earlier, sorry to repeat, as long as there is Love, respect and Unity between our Families, they will do Ibadat. I have confidence. Parents who don't have Unity, cause confussion, anger and hate in childrens life not religions.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Visitor wrote:
YAM... I am back icon_cool.gif

I know they won't come to khane... It's ok. Most of my cousin's..., don't want to go to khane be it morning or evening. And when they go, it's not purely for praying, But fashion, meeting people and and then some prayers. I will consider myself Luck if they even eat with us one meal a day so that we can say Shukhar together as a family.

As I mentioned earlier, sorry to repeat, as long as there is Love, respect and Unity between our Families, they will do Ibadat. I have confidence. Parents who don't have Unity, cause confussion, anger and hate in childrens life not religions.


YAM Visitor...
great to have you back..
just to let you know i am not disagreeing with how you're choosing to raise your kids..i am actually in awe of you to a certain extent where you stood up and choose someone to spend the rest of your life with that respects your faith and allows you free practise.
I also agree with you in regards to the current jamat khana being a place of fashion, of gossip, of show boating, of ismailies competing against ismailies as to who bids higher for awal sufro etc..the gist of why most of us attend jamat khana is gone...
i have friends and family that have gone down the route that you've gone down..and like i mentioned before due to the logistics of where i live..(tundra of north america) i probably will end up marrying out of the faith...
and i've firsthand seen some of the challenges raised by such unions..and forwarning you was my goal...
I commend you on the choices that you've made and i wish you all the best in raising good kids...
like i've said in another post relating to homosexuality..i'd rather have a homosexual who's a good human being than an "ismaili" who's a bad human being..afterall who am i to judge?...as christ has said himself..let he who is without sin cast the first stone...
with warm regards and ya ali madat.

ShamsB
From the cold Tundra icon_smile.gif
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Visitor



Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad Shams,

Thanks for your complements.... They are much appreciated icon_smile.gif

I can not say what's going to happen in future, no matter how much my husband or myself plan. The only thing we can do is pray to God to hold our Hands and help us go through any difficulties we may face in our lives. Nothing is guaranteed in life.

I do aprreciate your feed back, questions and concerns. Some of the questions raised are very valid and I found I had to answer them more for myself then others. I should actually Thank you for that.

Hope you do find the Love Of your Life and your Souls mate icon_smile.gif

Visitor
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19270

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:14 am    Post subject: Polygamy Reply with quote

The following article which appeared in today's Calgary Herald discusses issues surrounding polygamy in Canada.

An uneven playing field
Polygamy won't happen in this country

Mahfooz Kanwar
For The Calgary Herald

Monday, January 31, 2005



Multiple marriages, commonly referred to as polygamy, have been either tolerated or practised now and then by all major cultures with the blessing of their religions. Now, Canada finds itself at the centre of a debate over whether polygamy should be allowed here.

First, let's sort out the definitions: Polygamy is a marital practice of having more than one wife or more than one husband at the same time. Polygyny means having more than one wife at the same time. And polyandry is a marital practice of having more than one husband at the same time.

Unlike polygyny, polyandry has never been accepted or practised by any major culture, and all major religions have opposed it. Some tribes, however, have practised polyandry. For example, the Toda family system in southern India, and the Andarie family system in northern India do so now.

Polygyny does not raise as many eyebrows as polyandry does, apparently because of male domination of cultural traditions and religions. Since men have traditionally dominated the social institutions of marriage, family and religion, they have made rules that favoured them.

In practically all societies, men seem to have suppressed women. Many major religions seem to lend support to men in this process of control over women. Religion has been a significant tool for "the establishment" to control the populace. Hence the acceptance of polygyny and rejection of polyandry, for no religion accommodates polyandry.

Some male custodians of religion brainwash women to accept polygyny. The two most prominent current examples are Muslims and a splinter group of Mormons.

Both have historic roots.

At the advent of Islam more than 1,400 years ago, the imbalanced sex ratio, created mainly by wars, necessitated the allowance of polygyny. The imbalance of sex ratio in those days was roughly four women to one man. Therefore, men were allowed to marry up to four women at the same time -- to give women the security and dignity of married life.

In today's world, however, that situation does not exist and it is argued that those Muslims who practise polygyny are misinterpreting Islam. Further, in this era of enlightenment, polygyny not only makes no sense, but is against the law in Canada. There is simply no place for either polygyny or polyandry in Canada.

The second group practising polygyny is the splinter group of Mormons. Since 1892, they have avoided laws against polygyny in Canada and the U.S. by registering only one marriage, while keeping the other wives approved by their faith. Since there is no law against common-law unions and adultery in Canada, they have been able to justify their practice of multiple wives at the same time. However, their practice of polygyny is expected to be challenged in Canada in the near future.

Canada is a secular state with a constitution that is enshrined with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which protects the human rights of all Canadians, including women. Polygyny is a system of marriage that violates women's rights. We don't live in countries, such as Saudi Arabia and Iran, where the women's rights seem to be violated through polygyny, muta marriage and concubinage.
More...

...Continued
Some Canadians seem to be apprehensive Muslims and breakaway Mormons may use their religions to justify polygyny with a religious freedom argument. This is highly unlikely. A large number of Muslim countries have outlawed polygyny; it has not caused upheaval in those countries.

Some Mormons have misused polygyny by encouraging their multiple wives to depend on welfare. Disallowing them to practise polygyny will act to close that loophole.

Besides polygyny, there are many religious practices that the Charter would not protect. For instance, some orthodox Hindus believe in suttee (in which a widow immolates herself.) That would never be accepted in Canada.

Some Islamic laws may never be accepted in secular Canada. For example, one man is as good as two women in witnessing; a son inherits twice as much as a daughter; alimony is largely missing in Islam; divorced Muslim women get custody of their sons under eight years of age and daughters before they reach puberty (after which fathers get custody automatically); Islam commands husbands to discipline their wives, including beating them; wives are considered inferior to their husbands. All of these sharia dictums can be challenged successfully in Canada.

In relation to Judaism, I understand there is a law in Israel which recognizes rape of married women as a ground for divorce if their husbands wish to use it. That is unlikely to be accepted in Canada.
Therefore, polygyny is highly unlikely to be accepted in the land of (human) rights and freedoms.

Mahfooz Kanwar teaches at Mount Royal College.
© The Calgary Herald 2005
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:02 am    Post subject: Marriage and Health Reply with quote

Marital strife raises women's death rate
Married men had half the risk of dying

Charlie Fidelman
CanWest News Service


February 19, 2005

Suffering marital strain in silence increases women's risk of death by four times compared to women who are unhappy but show their feelings, according to research released Friday.

The unusual findings came as a surprise.

"Holy cow, what is this? It's such a large relative risk -- 400 per cent," epidemiologist Elaine Eaker said Friday in a telephone interview after presenting her findings at the American Heart Association's Second International Conference on Women, Heart Disease and Stroke, held in Orlando, Fla.

This is the first time that marital unhappiness has been linked to the development of heart disease and death, said Eaker, who is the lead investigator.

The findings came from the Framingham Offspring Study, a large and ongoing study tracking the prevalence of cardiovascular disease and other social and demographic characteristics such as marital strain in the Framingham, Mass., community.

Eaker collected marital discord data with researchers from Boston University.

The study included 1,769 men and 1,913 women age 18 to 77. Most participants -- 1,493 men and 1,501 women -- were married or "living in a marital situation."

The study confirmed that the married men live longer than the single.

"Not surprisingly, men have the better end of the deal," Eaker said. "Married men had half the risks of dying from all causes than unmarried men."

But marriage had no effect on a woman's survival.

Two types of strain proved harmful to both spouses.

Men whose wives came home upset because of work were more than twice as likely to develop heart disease.

Women who avoided conflict with their spouses, always keeping their feelings hidden, fared even worse.

"They died . . . we're convinced there is an effect," Eaker said.

It's not known why self-silencing increased their death risk by four times, but the study lends credence to the mind-body connection in health, she said.

Women who keep their emotions hidden are also more prone to depression.

"We found it not only related to depression but also to death," Eaker said. "What we need to explore is what self-silencing is doing to the body to create such a negative outcome."

Not all stress is bad, says cardiologist George Honos of the Heart and Stroke Foundation.

"But long-term exposure to stress, anger and repressed hostility is bad," Honos said.

A team led by psychiatrist Brian Baker of the University of Toronto showed that marriage affects blood pressure.

"We're not sure of the exact feature, but marriage seems to soothe the blood pressure, especially after a bad day," said Baker, a psychiatrist who only treats cardiac patients.

But women with heart disease and marital distress were more likely to have heart attacks and the outcome was much worse, he added.

Heart disease kills 38 per cent of Canadians.
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unnalhaq



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Marriages Reply with quote

saadi wrote:
Dear friends,

I'd like to know your opinion regarding the following issue:
"Do you believe it is okay for an Ismaili to marry a Non-Ismaili?"

It is not very common for Ismailis to marry outside the community yet what if one falls for a person outside the community? As I was going through some other forums, many of us are not even clear about how one converts to Ismailism, also if we are not ready to give up our faith then I think its not justified to expect it from the others. So in your opinion is it okay to marry outside the community (to a muslim of another sect), after all we are all Muslims, rite?

Let me present a situtation: "Is it okay for an Ismaili guy to marry a Sunni Girl?"
A: Yes I approve of it
B: It is okay only if the girl converts to Ismailism
C: It is okay only if the kids follow Ismailism in future
D: No it is absolutely unacceptable

Regards,
Saadi

Saddi, what is the tally 1-A and the rest can't vote, must be from Florida! Or are Democrats.
Put me down for A: Yes I approve of it.
I also looked at another post of "A Hindu marrying an Ismaili" AND did not find as much of a conviction as this one. Perhaps, it’s the predisposition to Hindus, my point being of Khija-Ismailis.


Last edited by unnalhaq on Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total
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unnalhaq



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know there is a family, in, Illinois, that holds an informal gathering of mixed spouses (ismaili and non-ismaili) and converted spouses (ismaili and converted ismailis after marriage). If you need more info you can PM me and I can give you their info.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marital Stress: Bad For a Woman's Heart
by Mary Calvagna, MS

Men and women are not the same; and this notion carries through to health issues. For example, when a woman under the age of 70 has a heart attack, she has a worse prognosis than a man of the same age. The reason for this disparity, however, is not yet understood.

A commonly held belief is that a man's stress is experienced at work and a woman's stress is experienced at home. Previous studies of men have found that work stress is associated with an increase in heart disease and poorer health outcomes after a heart attack. Speculation into the role of stress in the home led researchers to focus on marital stress as well as work stress when they studied women and heart attacks. Their results were published in an issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association.

Work Stress Versus Marital Stress
Researchers studied 279 females who were hospitalized after experiencing a heart attack. For five years after the initial attack, records were kept on any recurrences of coronary events, such as another heart attack, a revascularization procedure, or death from heart disease. In addition, researchers assessed marriage and work stress levels in the women using specialized questionnaires and structured interviews.

The results were quite significant. Severe marital stress was highly correlated with risk of a recurrent cardiac event; these women had a threefold higher risk than women with mild or no marital stress. Work stress, however, did not increase a woman's risk for a recurrent event.

The authors of the study speculated on possible explanations for these findings. Due to emotional strain and a perceived lack of support from her partner, a woman may not be motivated to stick with healthful lifestyle behaviors, or may not seek out medical support. Another factor may be the potentially damaging effects of negative emotional states and stress on the way the body functions physiologically.

Communicate Your Way to Less Stress
Whatever the mechanism, it seems clear that marital stress is bad for a woman's heart, both emotionally and physically. Working to alleviate stress in a marriage is a good step toward health and happiness. Many experts believe that communication is the foundation for a good marriage.

The Families Worldwide Organization provides some ideas about what you and your spouse can do to help build effective communication. Some of the tips include:


Listen as well as talk; Communication is a two-way street.
Work on hearing what your spouse is communicating. You may not be receiving the message that your partner is trying to convey.
Restate what you think your partner has said to ensure that what you think you heard was what was intended. This will help with your understanding.
Be sensitive to the nonverbal messages as well as the ones expressed in words. Although they can be confusing, they can also send important messages.
Take time out to talk. Put the kids to bed, turn off the television, unplug the phone. Make it a priority.
Just be there. Sometimes it is comfort enough to have someone to lean on or someone to listen.

RESOURCES:

American Heart Association
http://www.americanheart.org

Improving Communication Skills
Michigan State University
http://www.couns.msu.edu

Sources:

Orth-Gomér K. et al. Marital stress worsens prognosis in women with coronary heart disease. Journal of the American Medical Association2000; 284(23)3008-3014.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can Marriage Help You Live Longer?

by Krisha McCoy, MS

Research shows that marriage contributes to good health, and people who are healthier tend to live longer. Married men and women are less likely to have drinking problems, commit suicide, and develop mental problems. They also tend to eat more healthfully and exercise more frequently. What is it about marriage that leads to a longer, healthier life? Is marriage a means to achieving better health?

Men, Marriage, and Mortality

Some researchers suggest that the health benefits of marriage are stronger for men than women. A study published in the American Journal of Sociology found that 88% of married men live to the age of 65, while only 63% of never-married men, 65% of divorced men, and 69% of widowed men live to that age. The marriage benefit was not as substantial for women in this study: it found that 92% of married, 81% of never-married, 82% of divorced, and 90% of widowed women live to the age of 65.

The reason for this discrepancy isn’t entirely clear, but some researchers think it’s partly because single men are more likely than single women to engage in risky behavior—fast driving, skydiving, and binge drinking, for example. Also, women are more likely than men to have a strong social network, whether or not they are married, and social support is associated with better health and a longer life.

The Health Benefits of Marriage

The reason that married people tend to be healthier and live longer than unmarried people is complex and not fully understood. Some researchers point to the “marriage protection hypothesis,” which attributes the health benefits of marriage to the social, psychological, economic, and environmental effects of marriage. Others theorize that healthy people are simply more likely to get married. But, most researchers fall somewhere in between: they believe that, while it is true that healthy people may be more likely to get married, marriage itself is associated certain health benefits that can increase your chances of living a long, healthy life.

Just living with someone can be good for your health. People who live with a spouse—or anyone else, for that matter—have a better chance of getting care in times of illness. Also, spouses tend to promote healthful behaviors and discourage unhealthful ones, making married people more likely to eat healthfully and exercise, and less likely to smoke and excessively drink.

Another reason married men and women tend to live longer has to do with money. Married couples tend to have higher incomes, save more, and get more Social Security when they retire than unmarried individuals. Studies have shown that wealthier people have more access to health care and information, and are less likely to smoke, drink, eat poorly, and be sedentary.

Good Versus Bad Marriages

So, does just being married mean you will be healthier and live longer? Recent studies say that it depends on whether your marriage is good or bad. Research has shown that while a good marriage may offer health benefits, a bad marriage can actually be detrimental to your health.

A study in the December 11, 2000 issue of the Archives of Internal Medicine found that staying in a bad marriage was associated with increased blood pressure, while a good marriage was associated with decreased blood pressure. Another study in the September 2003 issue of Health Psychology found that, compared to women who reported satisfying marriages, women who were dissatisfied with their marriages were more likely to develop cardiovascular risk factors over time. These studies indicate that marital stress and dissatisfaction can put you at risk for adverse health outcomes.

Do You Need to Be Married to Be Healthy?

If you are married or are planning on becoming married, the best advice is to choose wisely when deciding who you want to spend your life with and work hard to make your marriage a strong one. If you aren’t married, you can still practice good health habits. Eat well, get plenty of exercise, keep tabs on your health, and build a strong, supportive social network.

RESOURCES:

American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy
http://www.aamft.org/index_nm.asp

Sources:

Baker B, Paquette M, Szalai JP, et al. The influence of marital adjustment on 3-year left ventricular mass and ambulatory blood pressure in milk hypertension. Archives of Internal Medicine. 2000;160:3453-3458.

Coombs RH. Marital status and personal well-being: a literature review. Family Relations. 1991;40:97-102.

Final Mortality Data for 1996 Sets New Records: Highest Life Expectancy and Lowest Infant Mortality Rate. National Center for Health Statistics website.
Available at: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/releases/98facts/finmort.htm.
Accessed September 10, 2003.

Gallo LC, Troxel WM, Matthews KA, Kuller LH. Marital status and quality in middle-aged women: associations with levels and trajectories of cardiovascular risk factors. Health Psychology. 2003;22.

Goldman N. Mortality differentials: selection and causation. Internation Encyclopedia of the Social and Behavioral Sciences. 2001:10068-10070.

Health, Marriage, and Longer Life for Men. RAND Center for the Study of Aging website.
Available at: http://www.rand.org/publications/RB/RB5018/#fnB0.
Accessed September 11, 2003.

Lilliard LA, Waite LJ. ‘Til death do us part: marital disruption and mortality. American Journal of Sociology. 1995;100:1131-1156.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unhappy Marriage? Wait a Few Years

The great secret of a successful marriage is to treat all disasters as incidents and none of the incidents as disasters.
-Sir Harold Nicolson


From "A Bad Economy Is Good for Your Health?" by Sharon Linnéa:

In a surprising turnaround on conventional wisdom, researcher Linda J. Waite has found that unhappily married couples who divorce are no happier in the long run than their counterparts who remain married. This is because nearly two thirds of the couples who are unhappy in their marriages—even extremely so—describe their marriage as happy five years later, while unhappy people who divorce are most likely to still be unhappy. This seems to be true with couples who stayed together even when faced with problems as serious as infidelity or drug use. In fact, the more extreme the unhappiness, the more likely the marriage was to turn around. Of those who rated their marriage very unhappy, 8 out of 10 had found success with the same spouse five years later.

In some cases it’s because the couples actively worked to solve the problems—for example, they sought counseling. In some they simply waited out the problem—the children grew up, a spouse landed a job—and in some the husband and wife took responsibility for finding happiness in other venues than the marriage. Yet the researchers also point out that most of the couples that describe themselves as unhappy in their marriages thought of those same marriages as happy five years earlier—and likely would again. In other words, most marriages go through prolonged periods of difficulty, but if the partners are committed to commitment as well as to each other, they are likely to come out happy with their relationship as years go by.
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Krim



Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 11:53 am    Post subject: Marriage Reply with quote

Got the Answer.. Thanks

Last edited by Krim on Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:24 am, edited 2 times in total
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Krim



Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 12:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Marriages Reply with quote

Got the Answer.. Thanks

Last edited by Krim on Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total
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unnalhaq



Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krim, as you said it is your opinion. One's opinion does not necessarily have to be right or wrong. You must have your own justification (conviction) to your own opinion, just as long as you are not forcing your opinion onto others...
I think it may not be a bad idea to read the past posts to help you further refine or have a second look!
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Krim



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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:35 pm    Post subject: YES or NO Reply with quote

Got the Answer.. Thanks

Last edited by Krim on Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:24 am, edited 2 times in total
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ThisWorldSucks



Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

marrying out of Ismaili community is considered as disgrace to the community.... ppl rebel against the person who has any interest outside the community in some other comunity.... such people are not considered true followers of Agha Khan but in fact if u realize being a true follower of Agha Khan's teachings is not really a big issue but yeah if ur true to the teachings of Allah, i.e. Quran... then u wont be having any problems....
if Princess Zahrah (pRince Karim's daighter) can get married to a practicing christian, then y not an 'ordinary' Ismaili? no Ismaili has got the guts to raise this issue... Y? becoz ur not allowed to talk against the heritage, but follow the excuses that are laid down in case of any failure on part of ur leader.... he is a human being like all of us, nuthing special, he fails too...

Bow to ur Imam and Ali... and Allah will ask u on the Day of Judgement for the 'SHIRK' that ur indulging into...

only if Ismailis had the brains to think... it wudnt have been the case... following an ordinary man when it is clearly stated in Quran that everyword of Allah in Quran has been perfected for us to follow until the Day of Judgement.... and even if Hazrat Ali was appointed by Hazrat Muhammad (p.b.u.h), it was only to guide the people by giving reference from the Quran...! not to change it! no one had the authority to change Quran not even Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h).....

THINK!!! and THINK LOGICALLY!!!

OR

the best thing you can do is to come up with excuses...

OR

say that u cannot tell everything bout ur religion... of course U CANT...! COZ YOUR NOT SURE BOUT IT!!!!
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Krim



Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad.

Well I didn`t get the answer of my Question????






ThisWorldSucks wrote:
marrying out of Ismaili community is considered as disgrace to the community.... ppl rebel against the person who has any interest outside the community in some other comunity.... such people are not considered true followers of Agha Khan but in fact if u realize being a true follower of Agha Khan's teachings is not really a big issue but yeah if ur true to the teachings of Allah, i.e. Quran... then u wont be having any problems....
if Princess Zahrah (pRince Karim's daighter) can get married to a practicing christian, then y not an 'ordinary' Ismaili? no Ismaili has got the guts to raise this issue... Y? becoz ur not allowed to talk against the heritage, but follow the excuses that are laid down in case of any failure on part of ur leader.... he is a human being like all of us, nuthing special, he fails too...

Bow to ur Imam and Ali... and Allah will ask u on the Day of Judgement for the 'SHIRK' that ur indulging into...

only if Ismailis had the brains to think... it wudnt have been the case... following an ordinary man when it is clearly stated in Quran that everyword of Allah in Quran has been perfected for us to follow until the Day of Judgement.... and even if Hazrat Ali was appointed by Hazrat Muhammad (p.b.u.h), it was only to guide the people by giving reference from the Quran...! not to change it! no one had the authority to change Quran not even Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h).....

THINK!!! and THINK LOGICALLY!!!

OR

the best thing you can do is to come up with excuses...

OR

say that u cannot tell everything bout ur religion... of course U CANT...! COZ YOUR NOT SURE BOUT IT!!!!
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unnalhaq



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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 1:57 am    Post subject: Re: YES or NO Reply with quote

Krim wrote:
Ya Ali Madad,

Well i went through message from Saadi also red some replies. some says there is no problem in getting married to other community girl and some says its against ismaili community.... iam confused now.
i have heard that its good to bring other community people into our community...iam not sure if this is rite or not..?
also if she agrees to join our community n follow our culture.
so can anyone explain me. is there a problem in getting married to other community girl even though if she agrees to join our community n follow our culture. y?is it so are there any farman on it.
and if there is no problem, then as our Imam given any farman on it.

i would appreciate ur replies.

Bai-Bai.


It is important that you must read all of the replies not just some. I know it is a daunting task but if you are seeking answers you must read.
Now having said that, it seems that you are mixing culture into religion; How come? That is the primary mistake. The religion is religion and the culture is culture. I know in some cultures, the culture is overbearing of the religion and something that you as a human being must contend with.
If you are looking to marry someone who would have your cultural values then it is very simple marry someone from your culture. If you are trying to implant (or transplant) your culture beyond the national (regional) boundaries then that can result in cultural conflict or to use The Imam’s words form recent speech in NY, “conflict of ignorance”.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coming back from the brink of divorce
'Retrouvaille' weekends let couples reconnect

Graeme Morton
Calgary Herald


Sunday, February 04, 2007


In modern North American society, we routinely pitch out disposable razors, diapers . . . even cellphones.

With a divorce rate flirting with 40 per cent in Canada, it would appear we can add many marriages to that toss-away list.

For those willing to give their marriage one more solid shot before throwing in the towel, Retrouvaille could be the lifeline they're reaching for.

Launched in Quebec in the 1970s, the Retrouvaille (rediscovery in French) program has now spread across North America and beyond.

Catholic in origin, the program is open to men and women of any, or no, faith background.

"There is some spiritual content, but it's not our intent to convert people to one particular denomination," says Renee Fietz, who co-ordinates the Calgary program with her husband Don.

"And it's not a situation where we profess to have all the answers or where we vow to make your marriage perfect. That's not realistic. We've all struggled," she says.

In Retrouvaille, couples commit to spend one full weekend with others who find themselves in similar straights. They stay at a local hotel and are guided by three "peer ministry" couples who've been through Retrouvaille themselves, and a local Catholic priest.

"My role is to present the theoretical aspect of what they're going to be talking about," says Father John Petravicius.

"I think the practice of faith is a major element in a marriage working out," he adds, "but first and foremost, the human situation has to be developed. If that doesn't develop, there's no possibility for growth."

For Alyre and Velma (last name withheld for privacy), married for 24 years and parents of three children, Retrouvaille is playing a key role in how they see each other and their marriage.

"We were pretty young when we met. I thought he was going to be my knight in shining armour; he was going to solve all my problems," remembers Velma.

They had taken their issues to counsellors, both individually and as a couple.

"We really looked at this (Retrouvaille) as our last chance to keep it together," says Velma.

Don Fietz said the key is to supply struggling couples with the tools and backup support to start talking, really communicating on a deep level instead of exchanging shallow small talk.

"The 'honeymoon' period in many marriages doesn't last very long, perhaps a year. The level of communication declines to include the weather, the kids . . . whatever it takes to keep the household going day-to-day, but nothing of any substance," he says.

"There's this feeling of people leading a 'single married' lifestyle, each going in their own direction . . . of it all slipping away."

During a Retrouvaille weekend, from Friday night to Sunday evening, couples commit to totally focus on their marriages. There's no going home to the distractions of children, job pressures or hobbies.

Alyre and Velma joined 33 other couples at the last Calgary weekend in September.

"What helps is that it is not a situation where you are spilling your guts, airing all the problems in your marriage in front of a group of strangers," says Alyre.

"The building, or rebuilding, of communication is between you and your spouse. But at the same time, it's reassuring to see that you're not alone, that other couples are having problems, too," he says.

Through a series of guided exercises, the couples are encouraged begin to break down walls, often cemented by back-and-forth criticism, that build up over the years.

"The biggest thing for me was beginning to see issues from her perspective. It lets you get inside your partner's head and understand where they are coming from," says Alyre.

Renee Fietz says body language often illustrates the progress, or lack of it, a couple is making on their issues.

"On Friday night, they're often sitting stiffly next to each other. By Sunday afternoon, they're usually a lot closer together," she adds.

Retrouvaille isn't an easy, one-shot fix.

It's demanding, introspective work and the Fietzes admit some couples who take the course still end up in divorce court.

But for those who break through barriers on the weekend, there are exercises to take home and an extensive mentoring followup program to cement the skills learned.

"We felt we got a fresh start on our marriage," says Alyre. "I learned it's not a matter of assigning blame; that I'm the only one I can work on and fix."

For Alyre and Velma, that followup is on hold for the time being.

Soon after they completed their Retrouvaille weekend last fall, an illness robbed Velma of her hearing. She's undergoing a series of medical procedures to restore that faculty.

"We believe it was meant to happen because we were not listening to each other or to God," Velma says of her hearing loss.

"I've since realized that silence isn't so bad; it actually allows you to think and to hear God speak."

The next Calgary Retrouvaille weekend is set for Feb. 16 to 18.

More information is available by calling 218-5504 or at helpourmarriage.com

gmorton@theherald.canwest.com

© The Calgary Herald 2007
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