Ismailism does not prohibit intercast marriage, and neither does it encourage it.
On the contrary, the decision to marry, whether within the Ismaili community or outside it, is in fact a matter of personal choic( or cultural or family preference). What is important however, is for both the Ismaili and Non-Ismaili spouse to decide as to which or whose relegion should their children owe allegiance to.
Children of inter-cast marriage should not be subjected to the torment of deciding as to which relegion do they actually belong to. At the same time, parents of intercast marriage should ensure that irrespective of whatever religion they choose for their kids, the kids are infact given a proper and sound understanding of the purpose and practice of their adopted relegion. What is important here is for the parents to make an informed and a rational decision on behalf of their children.
Islam does not question the legitimacy of other monothiastic faiths like Christianity or Judaism. In fact the follower of Islam and Ismailsm are required to consider and treat people of other faiths as their equals.
God does not accquire any benefit from choices that human beings make with regards to what relegion they choose to practice. On the contrary, it is the other way around. Human beings should ensure that whatever relegion they choose to practice, should be one which is the most complete, practical and intellectually appealing.
God is not dependent on us. It is we who are dependent on Him.
Marriages
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noorani_786
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:05 am
- Location: Tx
I completely agree with nagib : in Ismailim, or in Islam I should say, Marriage is a contract between two person's and not a religious contract. Bearing that in mind, I think marrying a non-muslim is in no way going against your faith. Now that religion is out of the question, I do believe marrying a non-muslim, will make a already complicated life even more complicated. I am sure very challenging, sensitive and thought-provoking issues will crop up that will make you question your beliefs and cause dicussions, which will lead into arguments causing heart-aches. But then doesn't a man go through such an ordeal whenever he crosses any unknow territory? Ofcourse he does. So should man remain o­nly within the realms of what he knows and what he "thinks" is right. Ofcourse not. It is by going into unknown territories that we learn more about who we truly are. Am I am sure shams will agree with me that although he went through much pain he came out a man who was more mature and with more knowledge and wisdom about life. But then if he were go back would he go through the same experience again knowing he will learn what he has learned? Ofcourse not. lol. So, in my opnioun I don't think the learning and wisdom gained at the end is worth the pain and heart-ache. But then I am not the o­ne who's in love. So what do i know. So, to summarize, o­nly you can make the decision. But it is definelty not plain-o "wrong" to marry a non-muslim. That much I can say.
I think this is just nuts!!!
Ok, Lets agree on one thing first. That is as a Muslim you belive everything is God's creation. Also, now take your blinders off and see. That without Christ there is no Mohammed, without Abraham there is no Christ!; So if someone tells you who to marry or not, is just foolish.
Last edited by unnalhaq on Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Marriages
Marry whom ever you desire. Don't let Khoja bigotry rule your life. I have noticed that Khojas in everyday lives have a certain attitude towards other raises specially even whites I have on occasions replied to them as “...so, don't bother showing up at darbar/deedar time because it might shocked them...the Imam is white!" Saadi Dear friends, I'd like to know your opinion regarding the following issue: "Do you believe it is okay for an Ismaili to marry a Non-Ismaili?" <BR><BR>It is not very common for Ismailis to marry outside the community yet what if o­ne falls for a person outside the community? As I was going through some other forums, many of us are not even clear about how o­ne converts to Ismailism, also if we are not ready to give up our faith then I think its not justified to expect it from the others. So in your opinion is it okay to marry outside the community (to a muslim of another sect), after all we are all Muslims, rite? <BR><BR>Let me present a situtation: "Is it okay for an Ismaili guy to marry a Sunni Girl?"<BR>A: Yes I approve of it <BR>B: It is okay o­nly if the girl converts to Ismailism <BR>C: It is okay o­nly if the kids follow Ismailism in future<BR>D: No it is absolutely unacceptable<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Saadi[/quote]
Last edited by unnalhaq on Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah on Marriage
The following is an extract from "Memoirs" on the concept of marriage in Ismailism.
Much of the work of the Ismaili councils and of the Imam's representatives nowadays is purely social, and is concerned with the proper contractual arrangement of matters such as marriage and divorce. On the subject I should perhaps say that nowhere in the world where Ismailis are now settled is there any persecution of them or interference with their faith and customs, except if and when the general laws of the country are contrary to institutions, such as plurality of wives. It is generally overlooked that among Ismailis no one can take a second wife or divorce his first wife for a whim or-as is sometimes falsely imagined in the West-some frivolous or erratic pretext. There are usually, to our way of thinking, some very good reasons for either action. To beget children is a very proper need and desire in every marriage; if after many years of married life there is still no issue, often a wife herself longs to see her home brightened by the presence of children with all the laughter, hope, joy and deep contentment that they bring with them. In other instances there is so profound a difference of character that a divorce is found to be the best solution for the happiness of both parties. But in every case whether a second wife is taken or a divorce is granted-the various councils or (where there are no councils) the representatives of the Imam have an absolute duty to safeguard the interests of the wife; if a second wife is taken, it is a matter of seeing that full financial protection is assured to the first wife, or if there is a divorce, of seeing that there is a generous, adequate and seemly monetary settlement. It is important that it should be realized among non-Muslims that the Islamic view of the institution of marriage-and of all that relates to it, divorce, plurality of wives and so on-is a question solely of contract, of consent and of definite and mutually accepted responsibilities. The sacramental concept of marriage is not Islam's; therefore except indirectly there is no question of its religious significance, and there is no religious ceremony to invest it with the solemnity and the symbolism which appertain to marriage in other religions like Christianity and Hinduism. It is exactly analogous to-in the West -an entirely civil and secular marriage in a registry office or before a judge. Prayers of course can be offered-prayers for happiness, prosperity and good health-but there can be no religious ritual beyond these, and they indeed are solely a matter of personal choice. There is therefore no kind of marriage in Islam, or among the Ismailis, except the marriage of mutual consent and mutual understanding. And as I have indicated, much of the work of the Ismaili councils and of the Imam's representatives in all our Ismaili communities is to see that marriages are properly registered and to ensure that divorce, though not a sin, is so executed that the interests of neither party suffer from it, that as much protection as possible is given to women, and most of all, that the maintenance of young children is safeguarded.
Much of the work of the Ismaili councils and of the Imam's representatives nowadays is purely social, and is concerned with the proper contractual arrangement of matters such as marriage and divorce. On the subject I should perhaps say that nowhere in the world where Ismailis are now settled is there any persecution of them or interference with their faith and customs, except if and when the general laws of the country are contrary to institutions, such as plurality of wives. It is generally overlooked that among Ismailis no one can take a second wife or divorce his first wife for a whim or-as is sometimes falsely imagined in the West-some frivolous or erratic pretext. There are usually, to our way of thinking, some very good reasons for either action. To beget children is a very proper need and desire in every marriage; if after many years of married life there is still no issue, often a wife herself longs to see her home brightened by the presence of children with all the laughter, hope, joy and deep contentment that they bring with them. In other instances there is so profound a difference of character that a divorce is found to be the best solution for the happiness of both parties. But in every case whether a second wife is taken or a divorce is granted-the various councils or (where there are no councils) the representatives of the Imam have an absolute duty to safeguard the interests of the wife; if a second wife is taken, it is a matter of seeing that full financial protection is assured to the first wife, or if there is a divorce, of seeing that there is a generous, adequate and seemly monetary settlement. It is important that it should be realized among non-Muslims that the Islamic view of the institution of marriage-and of all that relates to it, divorce, plurality of wives and so on-is a question solely of contract, of consent and of definite and mutually accepted responsibilities. The sacramental concept of marriage is not Islam's; therefore except indirectly there is no question of its religious significance, and there is no religious ceremony to invest it with the solemnity and the symbolism which appertain to marriage in other religions like Christianity and Hinduism. It is exactly analogous to-in the West -an entirely civil and secular marriage in a registry office or before a judge. Prayers of course can be offered-prayers for happiness, prosperity and good health-but there can be no religious ritual beyond these, and they indeed are solely a matter of personal choice. There is therefore no kind of marriage in Islam, or among the Ismailis, except the marriage of mutual consent and mutual understanding. And as I have indicated, much of the work of the Ismaili councils and of the Imam's representatives in all our Ismaili communities is to see that marriages are properly registered and to ensure that divorce, though not a sin, is so executed that the interests of neither party suffer from it, that as much protection as possible is given to women, and most of all, that the maintenance of young children is safeguarded.
I totally think then there is no need for religion. If it is not necessary for you to teach your child and bring him up in the same religion as yours then there is no religion. All of you probably have parents who are both ismailis. So there is no sin if you dont pass your religion to your child. Now suppose my partner is an ahtheist. Drinks, eats pork doesnt believe in god. I knew all this before marriage. Now she tells the child her side of the story, I tell the child mine. So then the child is free from sin and has a choice to believe in god or not. Then how can god blame him for not believing in god. So then there is no one religion which is right, drinking and eating pork can be made right, we can change watever we want. God doesnt exist and we are on a free ride over here. Now if you say that everyone is questionable for their ownselves, comon be realistic you live in this world, why are the parents of the child responsible for all what he does. And it is proven by science that what a parent does there is a 90% chance the child will follow that. And so the parent should be blamed for putting the child in that situation or shouldnt he/she. So basically Mowla is saying its all fine. I think its all contradicting. If this would have been happening along time ago ismailism would have vanished from the planet. I have seen hardly any ismailis or know any ismaili from the last generation who married a non-ismaili. But now from our generation its every one......everyone wants to marry a non-ismaili. I think its just a trend.
Statistics on Inter-marriage
Different faiths no barrier to marriage
CanWest News Service
Monday, December 27, 2004
Religion is no longer the issue it once was for couples considering marriage.
The Association for Canadian Studies in Montreal says a survey conducted this year by the Department of Heritage "pointed to significant openness on the part of the majority of Canadians to marry across religious, ethnic and language lines."
"Religion is far less of an obstacle than it would have been two or three decades ago," said Jack Jedwab, the association's executive director.
Statistics Canada results released recently showed almost six in 10 Catholics and Protestants tended to marry within their own faiths, while almost seven in 10 Jews married outside of their faith.
Among Muslims, Buddhists and members of other non-Christian faiths, almost eight of 10 married others who are part of non-Christian minorities.
© The Calgary Herald 2004
CanWest News Service
Monday, December 27, 2004
Religion is no longer the issue it once was for couples considering marriage.
The Association for Canadian Studies in Montreal says a survey conducted this year by the Department of Heritage "pointed to significant openness on the part of the majority of Canadians to marry across religious, ethnic and language lines."
"Religion is far less of an obstacle than it would have been two or three decades ago," said Jack Jedwab, the association's executive director.
Statistics Canada results released recently showed almost six in 10 Catholics and Protestants tended to marry within their own faiths, while almost seven in 10 Jews married outside of their faith.
Among Muslims, Buddhists and members of other non-Christian faiths, almost eight of 10 married others who are part of non-Christian minorities.
© The Calgary Herald 2004
YAM,
I was married to an Ismaili, who's father was Allijah, Brother was Mukhi and his Brother In Law was a Tribunal Council Member. Ha has 4 degrees from different Universities. The proposal was from Heaven, for my mum. The marriage lasted 2 yrs. He was Abusive, Controlling, committed adultery and couldn't keep a job for more then a yr.
Now, I am married to A Christian, Catholic. We've been in the relationship for more then 5 yrs. He respects me, my family, my faith and above all, he adores Mowla Bapa. He loves his Parents and loves his religion too. He won't convert as he has been brought up in his faith and has been following it for 30 yrs, just like me. This would hurt his family. All religions teach us not to hurt our parents.
The point is, people make religious differences, religions don't make people different. If you look at the Spiritual meaning of all man made religions, it is all same. Be good to yourself and others. Believe in God, Allah. Every religion teaches us not judge others, that's God's Job.
Talk with your partner and discuss things about each other's faith in open. Make decisions before hand that could affect not only you but your family, who has been there longer then your relationship. And above all, respect and love each other as Mowla says. Maintain Unity. Build bridges and spread love.
I apologize in advance if I have offended anyone. Ya Ali Madad
I was married to an Ismaili, who's father was Allijah, Brother was Mukhi and his Brother In Law was a Tribunal Council Member. Ha has 4 degrees from different Universities. The proposal was from Heaven, for my mum. The marriage lasted 2 yrs. He was Abusive, Controlling, committed adultery and couldn't keep a job for more then a yr.
Now, I am married to A Christian, Catholic. We've been in the relationship for more then 5 yrs. He respects me, my family, my faith and above all, he adores Mowla Bapa. He loves his Parents and loves his religion too. He won't convert as he has been brought up in his faith and has been following it for 30 yrs, just like me. This would hurt his family. All religions teach us not to hurt our parents.
The point is, people make religious differences, religions don't make people different. If you look at the Spiritual meaning of all man made religions, it is all same. Be good to yourself and others. Believe in God, Allah. Every religion teaches us not judge others, that's God's Job.
Talk with your partner and discuss things about each other's faith in open. Make decisions before hand that could affect not only you but your family, who has been there longer then your relationship. And above all, respect and love each other as Mowla says. Maintain Unity. Build bridges and spread love.
I apologize in advance if I have offended anyone. Ya Ali Madad
Last edited by Visitor on Thu Dec 30, 2004 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Intermarriage - Visitors Experience
Interesting experience Visitor! I am wondering whether you have any children and how you plan on raising them. Did you make any pre-nuptial agreement on this?
YAM kmaherali,
No, we don't have children yet. Inshallah when we do, they will be baptised as Catholic Christians. They will be exposed to Ismailism too. My husband or myself have no problems explaining the differences and the benefits of having Faith and believing in God, Allah. When they are at a mature age they will choose the religion they want to follow.
We've discussed this with both sides of the family. My parents and other family members are ok with what we've chosen. The simple reason being, they will be exposed to both sides of religion.
I would like my kids to be exposed to all different religions so that they can appreciate more Ismailism as we do believe all religions lead to one - Ismaili Muslim. We believe in Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses, Jesus, Muhamad (Salwat) and many more ... as our Holy Prophets.
No, we don't have children yet. Inshallah when we do, they will be baptised as Catholic Christians. They will be exposed to Ismailism too. My husband or myself have no problems explaining the differences and the benefits of having Faith and believing in God, Allah. When they are at a mature age they will choose the religion they want to follow.
We've discussed this with both sides of the family. My parents and other family members are ok with what we've chosen. The simple reason being, they will be exposed to both sides of religion.
I would like my kids to be exposed to all different religions so that they can appreciate more Ismailism as we do believe all religions lead to one - Ismaili Muslim. We believe in Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses, Jesus, Muhamad (Salwat) and many more ... as our Holy Prophets.
An enlightened and mature way of looking at the situation...Visitor wrote:YAM kmaherali,
No, we don't have children yet. Inshallah when we do, they will be baptised as Catholic Christians. They will be exposed to Ismailism too. My husband or myself have no problems explaining the differences and the benefits of having Faith and believing in God, Allah. When they are at a mature age they will choose the religion they want to follow.
We've discussed this with both sides of the family. My parents and other family members are ok with what we've chosen. The simple reason being, they will be exposed to both sides of religion.
I would like my kids to be exposed to all different religions so that they can appreciate more Ismailism as we do believe all religions lead to one - Ismaili Muslim. We believe in Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses, Jesus, Muhamad (Salwat) and many more ... as our Holy Prophets.
My personal view is that so long as the basic ethical principles which are shared between all faiths, are instilled and nurtured in an environment of tolerance, respect and love then the child will be led to choose the right path for him/herself. A faith that is based upon personal search is more likely to endure as opposed to one that is "drummed in" so to speak.
The following statement of MHI expresses the common ethos of Abrahamic tradition to nurture each life to it's full potential.
"The shared destiny of the ethos of the Abrahamic tradition that unites Christians, Jews and Muslims is governed by the duty of loving care to help nurture each life that is born to its God-given potential". [Houston Speech 2002]
Last edited by kmaherali on Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
What do I think is that one can not be ismaili and nonismaili at the same time.
One can not follow Islam and Christanity both religions and follow the both at same time as both are different from each other. Thats true Muslims as well as chirstians both believe Jesus but the concept is totally different.
Its not possible that a child recite Dua and Ginan in Jk than on Sunday go to Church for worship.
If you are thinking that child will have freedom to have any religion than this will confuse the child as he or she will not be mature enough to select it and if you think when child will mature than he or she will accept any religion so what before that? Will he or she without any religion till that period of time?
One can not follow Islam and Christanity both religions and follow the both at same time as both are different from each other. Thats true Muslims as well as chirstians both believe Jesus but the concept is totally different.
Its not possible that a child recite Dua and Ginan in Jk than on Sunday go to Church for worship.
If you are thinking that child will have freedom to have any religion than this will confuse the child as he or she will not be mature enough to select it and if you think when child will mature than he or she will accept any religion so what before that? Will he or she without any religion till that period of time?
YAM Munir,
Obviously an ideal situation would be that there should not be inter marriages. However that is not the reality. As demonstrated in this case a relationship between the two Ismailis did not work out and the female decided to get married to a non Ismaili. So how to deal with situations like that? Should they not have children at all?
On the other hand we have Ismaili children who are raised in relationships without love and a great deal of tension between parents. Consequently they are not exposed to correct practice of faith. Is that better?
In this particular case a child will be initiated into one faith but will have an exposure and understanding of both and will be allowed to decide for him/herself which to choose as an adult. In the meantime she will be instilled with common ethical principles predicated upon dasond (or tithe). In my opinion if it works, then it would be an ideal way to instil pluralism in a new generation. That is, the ability to think across faiths.
Obviously an ideal situation would be that there should not be inter marriages. However that is not the reality. As demonstrated in this case a relationship between the two Ismailis did not work out and the female decided to get married to a non Ismaili. So how to deal with situations like that? Should they not have children at all?
On the other hand we have Ismaili children who are raised in relationships without love and a great deal of tension between parents. Consequently they are not exposed to correct practice of faith. Is that better?
In this particular case a child will be initiated into one faith but will have an exposure and understanding of both and will be allowed to decide for him/herself which to choose as an adult. In the meantime she will be instilled with common ethical principles predicated upon dasond (or tithe). In my opinion if it works, then it would be an ideal way to instil pluralism in a new generation. That is, the ability to think across faiths.
I am in agreement with Star Munir, because one can't be an ismaili and a non ismaili at the same time...star_munir wrote:What do I think is that one can not be ismaili and nonismaili at the same time.
One can not follow Islam and Christanity both religions and follow the both at same time as both are different from each other. Thats true Muslims as well as chirstians both believe Jesus but the concept is totally different.
Its not possible that a child recite Dua and Ginan in Jk than on Sunday go to Church for worship.
If you are thinking that child will have freedom to have any religion than this will confuse the child as he or she will not be mature enough to select it and if you think when child will mature than he or she will accept any religion so what before that? Will he or she without any religion till that period of time?
when one takes baiyat one chooses to follow the Imam with tan, man and dhan..and we have numerous farmans of the imam telling us to follow him and him only...we can't say..i'll try this and try that and whichever leads me to salvation i'll follow..
not only that..christianity esp catholocism accepts christ as the son of god ..visavis god himself..and as muslims..as ismailies we are taught that christ couldn't have been the son of god..let alone god...due to the human concept of father/son not being at the level of allah...(farman of the imam)..and then there is the catholic issue of revering Mary...whilst we accept mary...the mother of christ as a "sati"...we can't attach the same reverence to her..and don't worship her..
think of the confusion that the child will experience..
and once one gives baiyat..one can't follow anyone else...and without giving baiyat one can't come into jamatkhana...
someone mentioned that ismailies don't forbid intercaste marraiges..i believe..( I could be wrong) that for one to marry outside the faith..one needs permission and blessing from mowlana hazar imam before doing that since we are his spiritual children and murids..
i know that it is permissible for Ismaili/Muslim Men to marry women from Ahl Kitab..(the people of the book) i.e. christians, jews and other muslims...
however for Ismaili/Muslim women..they can only marry other muslims...
Also we have a very simple ginan ..Gat maahe avine..
where the verse states:
"Apni Naath Chodi, Par Nathe Vevar na kije"...
i should be the last person typing this..as i live where there are no ismaili women to speak of..so i don't know what i'll do when it comes time to get married..
to Visitor..I am sorry that your marraige to an ismaili didn't work...but not all ismaili men are like that..so please don't stereotype us with that paint brush..i wish you all the best.
Shams.
YAM Shams and Star Munir,
My kids are not going to receive Baiyat until they decide they want to. As for Confusion of faith, it's better to get right answers then be taught how to hate the other religions or casts. Or mislead by wrong information just because the parents don’t understand other peoples faith. My husband and myself will provide them with answers as truthfully as you can.
As for worshipping Mother Mary, She was a mother or a Prophet, as How Bibi Fatima was. We respect her in no different way as Christians respect Bibi Fatima. They emphasis that women should be more respected and loved and treated as equal. Even we believe that Mothers are second best to God. I don't believe that Christians believe in Mother Mary as God and that's why they Worship her. They pray to her to ask favors from God. Like how my grandmaa used to tell me to pray to Bibi Fatima because she was Prophet Muhamad's Favorite.
One way we are taught that God doesn't have children but the other way we are told that we all are God's children. Some with special powers and some not. We all have Noor, be it an Ismailis or Plants. God put his breath in us and that's how human's where created. Numerous places in Quran mentions this too. Some of us believe Mowla Bapa is God himself, some of us believe that he has Allah's Noor and he is representing him. Some Christians believe Jesus to be God and some believe that he represents God, he is the means to get to God. In either cases both religions believe in same God/Allah in different forms.
As I mentioned earlier, We create the differences and create different religions. Allah wanted one true religion and he sent different prophets to different parts of this world, with his messages. People made religions based on different Prophets.
Ismailism is now very open and everything is on the Net... Starting from Dua to ginans to Firmans. If one wants to find, they can find anything they want related to Ismailism. As I had mentioned earlier that just because you come to khane morning and night, achieve big big Hoda's in khane, doesn't make you a perfect Ismaili or a Human. I will pray to Allah that my Kids learn to Love and respect all and not try to hurt others.
I am sorry if my initial email sounds like I am discriminating against Ismaili Man. :-) I don't. My Chacha's Mama's and My Father, are all Ismailis. I love them very dearly and I would never think that all Ismaili Man are same as one. I fell in Love with a Man who is not Ismaili, I married him with Mukhi Sahebs blessings and I am happy. Shukhar! I would not decide any other way just because he is not Ismaili. If one is happy, one can make others happy and try to follow Hakikati road of life.
YAM
Visitor
My kids are not going to receive Baiyat until they decide they want to. As for Confusion of faith, it's better to get right answers then be taught how to hate the other religions or casts. Or mislead by wrong information just because the parents don’t understand other peoples faith. My husband and myself will provide them with answers as truthfully as you can.
As for worshipping Mother Mary, She was a mother or a Prophet, as How Bibi Fatima was. We respect her in no different way as Christians respect Bibi Fatima. They emphasis that women should be more respected and loved and treated as equal. Even we believe that Mothers are second best to God. I don't believe that Christians believe in Mother Mary as God and that's why they Worship her. They pray to her to ask favors from God. Like how my grandmaa used to tell me to pray to Bibi Fatima because she was Prophet Muhamad's Favorite.
One way we are taught that God doesn't have children but the other way we are told that we all are God's children. Some with special powers and some not. We all have Noor, be it an Ismailis or Plants. God put his breath in us and that's how human's where created. Numerous places in Quran mentions this too. Some of us believe Mowla Bapa is God himself, some of us believe that he has Allah's Noor and he is representing him. Some Christians believe Jesus to be God and some believe that he represents God, he is the means to get to God. In either cases both religions believe in same God/Allah in different forms.
As I mentioned earlier, We create the differences and create different religions. Allah wanted one true religion and he sent different prophets to different parts of this world, with his messages. People made religions based on different Prophets.
Ismailism is now very open and everything is on the Net... Starting from Dua to ginans to Firmans. If one wants to find, they can find anything they want related to Ismailism. As I had mentioned earlier that just because you come to khane morning and night, achieve big big Hoda's in khane, doesn't make you a perfect Ismaili or a Human. I will pray to Allah that my Kids learn to Love and respect all and not try to hurt others.
I am sorry if my initial email sounds like I am discriminating against Ismaili Man. :-) I don't. My Chacha's Mama's and My Father, are all Ismailis. I love them very dearly and I would never think that all Ismaili Man are same as one. I fell in Love with a Man who is not Ismaili, I married him with Mukhi Sahebs blessings and I am happy. Shukhar! I would not decide any other way just because he is not Ismaili. If one is happy, one can make others happy and try to follow Hakikati road of life.
YAM
Visitor
Bayat now?
Let the kids reject the Bayat when they can make their own decision. Taking the Bayat to the Imam now means a lot them then you think. It is something they can decide later in their lives as to what it means. Then they can make their own decision.
The current Isa
one of the titles that is given to our current Imam is
"Isa-e-Zaman"
The Isa of the time.
All christians do pray to our Imam without knowing it of course.
"Isa-e-Zaman"
The Isa of the time.
All christians do pray to our Imam without knowing it of course.
YAMVisitor wrote:YAM Shams and Star Munir,
My kids are not going to receive Baiyat until they decide they want to. As for Confusion of faith, it's better to get right answers then be taught how to hate the other religions or casts. Or mislead by wrong information just because the parents don’t understand other peoples faith. My husband and myself will provide them with answers as truthfully as you can.
YAM
Visitor
If they aren't going to receive Baiyat..than they can't come into Jamat Khana and practice Ismailism...as we all know in order for one to come inside jamatkhana whilst prayers are going on you have to be an Ismaili..you have to take an oath to the imam.
you can't be an ismaili on a trial basis
I am not saying that what you are doing is wrong..and don't mean to offend..all i am try to say is that be careful because i have friends that have tried this approach..and it hasn't worked....
we as ismailies accept that all other faiths to lead to god...
the christian faith doesn't...and that's going to cause a dilemma in their minds..on the one hand you will take pains to educate them on the ismaili faith..and then they'll to to sunday school and get an opposing view..
the majority of the ismaili faith is practised as a batini faith..the internet doesn't suffice for that..yes it provides information but that's about it...
our faith is very personal..it is individualisitic..only the practice of it is communal..each one of us has a unique connection to the Noor ...that isn't replicated in any other faith...in order for us to achieve salvation we have to earn it..in the christian faith salvation is very easy..just accept christ...
I wish you the best of luck.
Shams.
Bayat and Intermarriage
Doing Bayat does not necessarily make someone a good Ismaili. How many Ismailis really are faithful to the Bayat?
On the other hand we have many examples of individuals who converted to Ismailism through personal quest and who have turned out to be good Ismailis. For example, Nasr Khusraw was not born an Ismaili but he adopted Ismailism after personal search and understanding.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, this is not an ideal situation. We are trying to make the best of the situation given that intermarriages are a reality.
Provided the parents have an understanding that the child will have the ultimate choice as she becomes old and understanding, I do not see that as being something impossible to work out if there is will and commitment on the part of the parents.
On the other hand we have many examples of individuals who converted to Ismailism through personal quest and who have turned out to be good Ismailis. For example, Nasr Khusraw was not born an Ismaili but he adopted Ismailism after personal search and understanding.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, this is not an ideal situation. We are trying to make the best of the situation given that intermarriages are a reality.
Provided the parents have an understanding that the child will have the ultimate choice as she becomes old and understanding, I do not see that as being something impossible to work out if there is will and commitment on the part of the parents.
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star_munir
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The problem here is that one can not be ismaili and nonismaili at the same time. Christians believe Jesus as son of God physically and according to ismailism we must repect every faith but that not means that we also worship and say prayers of other religion.
Example there are ismailis who believe Ram as Imam Pre Ali but you may not will see an ismaili asking prayers infront of idol of Ram in temple. Same is the case here. Ismailism believe in Alive Imam. We have Imam for Guidance. One can not follow two religions at same time. Thats correct that every religion teaches to do good and avoid bad work.Islam also teaches peace and love and so is christanity like it is in Bible "Love your enemies,do good to those who hate you,bless those who curse you,pray for those who mistreat you."
We may find many simlarities between Christanity and Islam. We may also celebrate their festivals inorder to have good relations and friendship but due to major difference in fundamental believes and concept we cant say that both are same or one can become Ismaili and Christian both at the same time. Its some thing thats impossible.
Example there are ismailis who believe Ram as Imam Pre Ali but you may not will see an ismaili asking prayers infront of idol of Ram in temple. Same is the case here. Ismailism believe in Alive Imam. We have Imam for Guidance. One can not follow two religions at same time. Thats correct that every religion teaches to do good and avoid bad work.Islam also teaches peace and love and so is christanity like it is in Bible "Love your enemies,do good to those who hate you,bless those who curse you,pray for those who mistreat you."
We may find many simlarities between Christanity and Islam. We may also celebrate their festivals inorder to have good relations and friendship but due to major difference in fundamental believes and concept we cant say that both are same or one can become Ismaili and Christian both at the same time. Its some thing thats impossible.
Re: Bayat and Intermarriage
I don't think that the question star munir and I are raising is whether one is a good human being or a good ismaili or a bad ismaili by virtue of baiyat..kmaherali wrote:Doing Bayat does not necessarily make someone a good Ismaili. How many Ismailis really are faithful to the Bayat?
On the other hand we have many examples of individuals who converted to Ismailism through personal quest and who have turned out to be good Ismailis. For example, Nasr Khusraw was not born an Ismaili but he adopted Ismailism after personal search and understanding.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, this is not an ideal situation. We are trying to make the best of the situation given that intermarriages are a reality.
Provided the parents have an understanding that the child will have the ultimate choice as she becomes old and understanding, I do not see that as being something impossible to work out if there is will and commitment on the part of the parents.
I think the question is whether you can be an ismaili and a catholic at the same time..and then choose when you grow up..i believe you can be taught about the ismaili faith..just like khusraw..who "adopted" the ismaili faith..i don't think you can practice 2 faiths at the same time..as Visitor is suggesting..we have been told in numerous farmans of MSMS that we shouldn't have 2 fathers...
Whilst as an ismaili i do believe all religions do lead to god and all religions preach good..i don't pray to other deities except the noor of allah...christianity on the other hand accepts and holds christ to be the son of god...
catholicism goes one step further it deitifies Mary..the mother of christ..(to your point Visitor)whom we also hold as holy and pure..but we don't pray to her...we accept her as a Sati and go from there..we also don't have jamat khanas with pictures of Bibi Fatima in them..or have a rosary to bibi fatima or have shrines all over the world to her where we go and pray to her....we pray to the Noor..or to the manifestation that would be Imam of the time.
Christianity accepts Christ as God incarnate..we don't..that is a huge conflict that you will be creating in your children's minds..
as an ismaili we are clear as to who is permitted in Jamat Khana during prayer times..those that have given baiyat..without your children giving baiyat are you going to bring them to jamat khana thus breaking a prime tenet of the faith?..we are a sufi tariqah to an extent and the oath of allegiance is the prime basis of membership..remember giving baiyat one says..I give tan, man and dhan to the imam..and it is the imam that has said in a farman
"Ismailism is a faith of CONVICTION not one of CONVIENENCE".
another example..catholicism or for that matter most forms of christianity permit the eating of pork which is haram in islam..how are you going to address that issue?...because that will come up..trust me i speak from experience...
Christianity preaches salvation to all that accept christ..
ismailism says salvation needs to be earned..how are you going address that?
I apologize if i offended anyone and for my bad spelling and punctuations...
Shams....
Re: Bayat and Intermarriage
YAM,ShamsB wrote: I don't think that the question star munir and I are raising is whether one is a good human being or a good ismaili or a bad ismaili by virtue of baiyat..
I think the question is whether you can be an ismaili and a catholic at the same time..and then choose when you grow up..i believe you can be taught about the ismaili faith..just like khusraw..who "adopted" the ismaili faith..i don't think you can practice 2 faiths at the same time..as Visitor is suggesting..we have been told in numerous farmans of MSMS that we shouldn't have 2 fathers...
Visitor stated that the child will be baptised as a Christian and be exposed to Ismaili faith. This is just like we taking Bayat as Ismailis and being exposed to other faiths. I do not think that the Visitor meant practicing both faiths simultaneously.
Mind you we are talking of an infant. Hopefully as it grows and questions her beliefs, she will have an opportunity to compare the two faiths and then have the opportunity to decide which is the correct faith which will suit her intellectual, emotional and social outlook. In this process, the parental love and cooperation as well as their role model behaviour will be critical.
Yam Everyone,
I am not offended at all. I have actually thought of all the questions that you've asked and many many more up to a point what happens if I die before they decide, if they decide, to become Ismaili or not.
The whole problem is that we have many differences, as you mentioned one - eating Pork, between us and Catholics. I don't eat Pork because I was told and taught it is Haram. I learnt later on that this is because Pigs are the dirtiest animals and carry many sicknesses. That made more sense to me in practical way then just accepting it blind foldedly that this is Haram. I will never be able to control, in this part of the world, for them not to eat pork. I know Many Ismaili kids and adults eating pork, drinking alcohol, playing "friendly Gambling" such as lotos, and smoking. All this is Haram in Ismailism and Islam. If one individual wants to do something, no matter how much you try and teach them as an ismaili or nonismaili, they will go ahead and do it.
I am sure we all can come up with million and one reasons why material things are important in life and forgetting the real spiritual aspect of it. Being Ismaili is an honor. How many of do really honor that? See, if I become like a horse who is only allowed to look in to one direction and concentrate on just Ismailism being the true religion and the rest are sinners. I will never find inner peace. I will be condemning others. I have chosen not to. I am keeping a broad mind and I am trying to be happy and let others be happy too.
If I see my Child never going in to drugs, stealing, drinking and becoming an alcoholic, gambling his/her life's earning away, be a hurtful and mean person who is selfish and centered... I will be satisfied.
If I see my child praying to God, Trying to do Good in Church or in the world, helps people in need, makes everyone laugh and spread love, I will consider any punishment from Allah as a blessing too. I will know that I have someone of my own who is nice and Loving. Not angry and hateful.
I might be jumping at different topics and I might not completely explain what I am trying to say. I am typing this at work. I will try better next time
I am not offended at all. I have actually thought of all the questions that you've asked and many many more up to a point what happens if I die before they decide, if they decide, to become Ismaili or not.
The whole problem is that we have many differences, as you mentioned one - eating Pork, between us and Catholics. I don't eat Pork because I was told and taught it is Haram. I learnt later on that this is because Pigs are the dirtiest animals and carry many sicknesses. That made more sense to me in practical way then just accepting it blind foldedly that this is Haram. I will never be able to control, in this part of the world, for them not to eat pork. I know Many Ismaili kids and adults eating pork, drinking alcohol, playing "friendly Gambling" such as lotos, and smoking. All this is Haram in Ismailism and Islam. If one individual wants to do something, no matter how much you try and teach them as an ismaili or nonismaili, they will go ahead and do it.
I am sure we all can come up with million and one reasons why material things are important in life and forgetting the real spiritual aspect of it. Being Ismaili is an honor. How many of do really honor that? See, if I become like a horse who is only allowed to look in to one direction and concentrate on just Ismailism being the true religion and the rest are sinners. I will never find inner peace. I will be condemning others. I have chosen not to. I am keeping a broad mind and I am trying to be happy and let others be happy too.
If I see my Child never going in to drugs, stealing, drinking and becoming an alcoholic, gambling his/her life's earning away, be a hurtful and mean person who is selfish and centered... I will be satisfied.
If I see my child praying to God, Trying to do Good in Church or in the world, helps people in need, makes everyone laugh and spread love, I will consider any punishment from Allah as a blessing too. I will know that I have someone of my own who is nice and Loving. Not angry and hateful.
I might be jumping at different topics and I might not completely explain what I am trying to say. I am typing this at work. I will try better next time
Marriages
It is very simple, there is no Mohammed with out Christ, and there is no Christ with out Abraham. At most of the time people forget that. It is the abundance of IGNORANCE and lack of INTELLECT. Also whatever happened to some thing called PLURALISM?
Last edited by unnalhaq on Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The current Isa
The following footnote in The Second Coming of Christ explains the meaning of Isa. It is believed that Jesus got this name from the wise men from India who visited him at the time of his birth. Nabi Isa also spent considerable period of his adolescense travelling in India.shamsu wrote:one of the titles that is given to our current Imam is
"Isa-e-Zaman"
The Isa of the time.
All christians do pray to our Imam without knowing it of course.
In Pali (and in Sanskrit), Isa (pronounced ee-sha) means "lord, owner, ruler" - as does the related word Issara (Pali version of Ishvara)....
Jesus' name is pronounced and spelled in different ways in various languages, but it has the same meaning. In the Koran ( written in Arabic), the name used for Jesus is Isa or Issa - the same as in the Tibetian texts discovered by Notovitch. Only through changes by speakers in many lands did his name come to be pronounced Jesus. That English word is relatively modern; prior to the sixteenth century it was not spelled with a "J" but with an "I," as in Latin and Greek (Iesous). Even today, in Spanish, though spelled with a "J," Jesus is pronounced "Hay-soos."
The Biblical account, given in the Gospels of Luke and Mathew, is that both Mary and Joseph were instructed by an angel that the divine child was to be named Yeshua, "savior" (in Greek, Iesous; in English, Jesus): "....thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins" (Mathew 1:21). The Hebrew word Yeshua is a contraction of Yehoshua, "Yahweh (Jenovah, the Creator) is salvation." However, the language of daily use for Jesus and his fellow Galileans was not Hebrew, but the related dialect Aramaic, in which his name would have been pronounced "Eshu." Thus, strangely enough, the name predicted for Jesus by the angel, and given to him by his family, was remarkably akin to the more ancient Sanskrit name bestowed by the Wise Men. Aside from the phonetic similarities, there is an underlying unity of meaning of the words Isha and Yeshua - the two appellations bestowed on the one revered by millions as "Lord and Savior."
YAM... I am back 
I would like to say Shamsb that there is still nothing wrong having a place where people actually go to pray. Would I prefer to visit a Casino, Club, or a mall or even a dinner party where people are gossiping, as opposed to visiting a Holy Mary’s Shrine where you can actually see Love in people’s eyes? I would choose the shrine. Not because I am worshipping her, but I would say a Salwat or two for her and let "her be blessed by Allah again". As long as there is goodness existing in a place, God exists there too. I personally would love to see more people at places where they pray, pray to anyone, as long as they are praying and not hurting others or themselves.
Yes, Holy Mary is Glorified by Christians. I think all Mothers should be Glorified not only Mother Mary. Just because God Has given every mother a special power to give birth and bear all the pain. How many times do we go to our Mum and say that she is a miraculous Woman by being a mother?
Annalhaq has made a very good point. If people voluntarily seek knowledge and try to see past man made rules of religions, all religions are very similar and beautiful.
kmaherali... That's Great information! I never knew half of that. My husband read your notes and he also said that he has learnt quite a bit of that in his young days. Thanks for sharing!!
As for being an Ismaili and non-ismaili at the same time... Honestly, every person who is doing any good did, is doing Ibadat. You lift a broken glass from the Road so that it doesn't hurt anyone; you actually are doing Ibadat and worshiping God at that time. I remember this from my Mission Classes when I was young. Ibadat is Ibadat, Allah accepts everyone's Good deeds. These good deeds don't have religion attached to it. Our Du'a, Firmans, Ginan's and Quasidas teach us the same Ibadat concepts. The Most important thing is to be a nice person from inside. You can belong to any religion, but if you are a nice person, you are Allah's Momin.If you want to be a true Ismaili, change what's inside your heart then change what's outside. Everyone is part of Ismailism, some realize and some don't.
I know they won't come to khane... It's ok. Most of my cousin's..., don't want to go to khane be it morning or evening. And when they go, it's not purely for praying, But fashion, meeting people and and then some prayers. I will consider myself Luck if they even eat with us one meal a day so that we can say Shukhar together as a family.
As I mentioned earlier, sorry to repeat, as long as there is Love, respect and Unity between our Families, they will do Ibadat. I have confidence. Parents who don't have Unity, cause confussion, anger and hate in childrens life not religions.
I would like to say Shamsb that there is still nothing wrong having a place where people actually go to pray. Would I prefer to visit a Casino, Club, or a mall or even a dinner party where people are gossiping, as opposed to visiting a Holy Mary’s Shrine where you can actually see Love in people’s eyes? I would choose the shrine. Not because I am worshipping her, but I would say a Salwat or two for her and let "her be blessed by Allah again". As long as there is goodness existing in a place, God exists there too. I personally would love to see more people at places where they pray, pray to anyone, as long as they are praying and not hurting others or themselves.
Yes, Holy Mary is Glorified by Christians. I think all Mothers should be Glorified not only Mother Mary. Just because God Has given every mother a special power to give birth and bear all the pain. How many times do we go to our Mum and say that she is a miraculous Woman by being a mother?
Annalhaq has made a very good point. If people voluntarily seek knowledge and try to see past man made rules of religions, all religions are very similar and beautiful.
kmaherali... That's Great information! I never knew half of that. My husband read your notes and he also said that he has learnt quite a bit of that in his young days. Thanks for sharing!!
As for being an Ismaili and non-ismaili at the same time... Honestly, every person who is doing any good did, is doing Ibadat. You lift a broken glass from the Road so that it doesn't hurt anyone; you actually are doing Ibadat and worshiping God at that time. I remember this from my Mission Classes when I was young. Ibadat is Ibadat, Allah accepts everyone's Good deeds. These good deeds don't have religion attached to it. Our Du'a, Firmans, Ginan's and Quasidas teach us the same Ibadat concepts. The Most important thing is to be a nice person from inside. You can belong to any religion, but if you are a nice person, you are Allah's Momin.If you want to be a true Ismaili, change what's inside your heart then change what's outside. Everyone is part of Ismailism, some realize and some don't.
I know they won't come to khane... It's ok. Most of my cousin's..., don't want to go to khane be it morning or evening. And when they go, it's not purely for praying, But fashion, meeting people and and then some prayers. I will consider myself Luck if they even eat with us one meal a day so that we can say Shukhar together as a family.
As I mentioned earlier, sorry to repeat, as long as there is Love, respect and Unity between our Families, they will do Ibadat. I have confidence. Parents who don't have Unity, cause confussion, anger and hate in childrens life not religions.
YAM Visitor...Visitor wrote:YAM... I am back
I know they won't come to khane... It's ok. Most of my cousin's..., don't want to go to khane be it morning or evening. And when they go, it's not purely for praying, But fashion, meeting people and and then some prayers. I will consider myself Luck if they even eat with us one meal a day so that we can say Shukhar together as a family.
As I mentioned earlier, sorry to repeat, as long as there is Love, respect and Unity between our Families, they will do Ibadat. I have confidence. Parents who don't have Unity, cause confussion, anger and hate in childrens life not religions.
great to have you back..
just to let you know i am not disagreeing with how you're choosing to raise your kids..i am actually in awe of you to a certain extent where you stood up and choose someone to spend the rest of your life with that respects your faith and allows you free practise.
I also agree with you in regards to the current jamat khana being a place of fashion, of gossip, of show boating, of ismailies competing against ismailies as to who bids higher for awal sufro etc..the gist of why most of us attend jamat khana is gone...
i have friends and family that have gone down the route that you've gone down..and like i mentioned before due to the logistics of where i live..(tundra of north america) i probably will end up marrying out of the faith...
and i've firsthand seen some of the challenges raised by such unions..and forwarning you was my goal...
I commend you on the choices that you've made and i wish you all the best in raising good kids...
like i've said in another post relating to homosexuality..i'd rather have a homosexual who's a good human being than an "ismaili" who's a bad human being..afterall who am i to judge?...as christ has said himself..let he who is without sin cast the first stone...
with warm regards and ya ali madat.
ShamsB
From the cold Tundra
Ya Ali Madad Shams,
Thanks for your complements.... They are much appreciated
I can not say what's going to happen in future, no matter how much my husband or myself plan. The only thing we can do is pray to God to hold our Hands and help us go through any difficulties we may face in our lives. Nothing is guaranteed in life.
I do aprreciate your feed back, questions and concerns. Some of the questions raised are very valid and I found I had to answer them more for myself then others. I should actually Thank you for that.
Hope you do find the Love Of your Life and your Souls mate
Visitor
Thanks for your complements.... They are much appreciated
I can not say what's going to happen in future, no matter how much my husband or myself plan. The only thing we can do is pray to God to hold our Hands and help us go through any difficulties we may face in our lives. Nothing is guaranteed in life.
I do aprreciate your feed back, questions and concerns. Some of the questions raised are very valid and I found I had to answer them more for myself then others. I should actually Thank you for that.
Hope you do find the Love Of your Life and your Souls mate
Visitor