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Das Avatar
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mazharshah



Joined: 18 Oct 2018
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote:

Regarding golden age, I quoted from an article. Which you confirmed by quoting Ginan. Of course this is meant symbolic form of peace without worries. As it is said, goat and a lion drank water from same pond, and lion not attacking weak animal for lunch.
You mean you don't agree with the articles that you post! That means you don't have conviction, you are posting for convenience and to create nuisance.

Are animals capable of higher consciousness that the Golden Age points to. The article says that people of Satya and Treta Yuga were deities. Were in the article does it say animals. Mind you, it is an article and not a poem so we are not talking about symbols.


That article I posted for general information. Mythical stories generally depend on symbols and allegorical explanations. The phrase 'Golden Age' is allegorical and not 100% real. None of any society in any given period of time be 100% pure without crime and disturbance. No ancient culture is without its mythology. Myths are folklore, folk tales, folk stories of legends. Modern brain will hardly accept that God will come to planet Earth in forms of fish, tortroise, pig to save Mother Earth and fist fight with devils.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 23136

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazharshah wrote:
That article I posted for general information. Mythical stories generally depend on symbols and allegorical explanations. The phrase 'Golden Age' is allegorical and not 100% real. None of any society in any given period of time be 100% pure without crime and disturbance. No ancient culture is without its mythology. Myths are folklore, folk tales, folk stories of legends. Modern brain will hardly accept that God will come to planet Earth in forms of fish, tortroise, pig to save Mother Earth and fist fight with devils.
Normally when someone posts an article, it is the case that he agrees with it and does not post for the sake of posting to mislead.The article itself did not portray the Golden Age as a myth but rather it presented it as a fact. Of course no age is perfect and hence the need for Avatars to assume appropriate forms to bring about positive changes. God being God can assume any form suitable to the needs of the time.
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mazharshah



Joined: 18 Oct 2018
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote:
That article I posted for general information. Mythical stories generally depend on symbols and allegorical explanations. The phrase 'Golden Age' is allegorical and not 100% real. None of any society in any given period of time be 100% pure without crime and disturbance. No ancient culture is without its mythology. Myths are folklore, folk tales, folk stories of legends. Modern brain will hardly accept that God will come to planet Earth in forms of fish, tortroise, pig to save Mother Earth and fist fight with devils.
Normally when someone posts an article, it is the case that he agrees with it and does not post for the sake of posting to mislead.The article itself did not portray the Golden Age as a myth but rather it presented it as a fact. Of course no age is perfect and hence the need for Avatars to assume appropriate forms to bring about positive changes. God being God can assume any form suitable to the needs of the time.


You wrote:
The article itself did not portray the Golden Age as a myth but rather it presented it as a fact. Of course no age is perfect.

There are 2 parts of above post negating each other. First part says ' the golden age was not myth but was real' and other part says 'of course no age is perfect'!! When no age is perfect then how come the Satya yoga was perfect. There was the devil who stole vedas and disappear with his companions.
Nirinjin is Aruup, then how come he adopts Ruup?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 23136

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazharshah wrote:
There are 2 parts of above post negating each other. First part says ' the golden age was not myth but was real' and other part says 'of course no age is perfect'!! When no age is perfect then how come the Satya yoga was perfect. There was the devil who stole vedas and disappear with his companions.Nirinjin is Aruup, then how come he adopts Ruup?
Perfection is of course in relative sense. There is no absolute perfection. What Satya Yuga represents, is the higher mental capacities which can be used to promote civilization and which can also be used for negative purposes. In esoteric philosophy the negative tendencies are there to be overcome and hence spiritual strength and progress is derived.

Pahelaaj was abused in his childhood by the devil (his father). However he withstood the hardships with patience which enabled him to attain the status of the master of the five crores.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 6246

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:42 pm    Post subject: Various versions of Das Avatar Granth Reply with quote

I want to document the existence of various Das Avatars Granths and shorter Ginans here, beside the obvious. I may have stated some of this in the past.

We used to have the Das Avatar Moto of Pir Sadardin which was used and well known in the community, the one quoted by our Imam in the British Court and in the handwritten affidavit of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah in 1908 at the British Court during Haji Bibi Case.

Beside, there was a longer Das Avatar of Syed Imam Shah and Late Dr Gulshan Khakee usd a manuscript she found in Pirana for her Thesis at Harvard (http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/29102) In manuscript hs0108 of AD 1841 found in Sinugra area, there is the tenth chapter of the Das Avatar of Syed Imam Shah, it has 527 verses.

Gulshan Khakee also wrote on the Nano Das Avatar of Pir Shams. (So one days we were bound to find the "Moto" version of Pir Shams. We can also find the same Nano Das Avatar of Pir Shams in hs0202 dated AD 1871. It has 4 pages and 10 chapters.

I was surprised to find the Moto Das Avatar of Pir Hasan Kabirdin in Khojki manuscript hs0022 dated 1875 which beloged to some Mukhi Alarakhiya Samji of Mumbai in that time, the Dasmu Avatar part has 524 verses.

I though the Imamshahis would know about it. I was wrong, I asked to few of their "scholars" but none of them knew. The fact that this work was known as "Moto" may point to the fact that Pir Hasan Kabirdin also wrote a "Nano" version.

Then, Gujarati manuscript hs0375 found in Ahmedabad area and completed in Samvat 1823 (AD 1767) has a work described as MOTO Das Avatar of Pir Shams in 582 verses.

I intend to write extensively on various versions of the Das Avatar.


Last edited by Admin on Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 23136

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That all the Pirs have related extensively on Das Avatars, says a great deal about the veracity of it. It couldn't just be a conversion tool as the critics have alleged.
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shivatrivedi



Joined: 02 Nov 2018
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
That all the Pirs have related extensively on Das Avatars, says a great deal about the veracity of it. It couldn't just be a conversion tool as the critics have alleged.


With reference to KIM, MSMS has said FORGET 9 AVTARS AND PRAISE MOWLA ALI. Question is why he reminded us to forget 9 Avtars? Mission of Pirs completed and Piratan merged with Imamat, THERE IS NO MASS CONVERSIONS NOW A DAYS. Ginans on 10 Avtars are not recited in JKs on Hidayat of Imam. These Ginans according to 1969 Ginan workshop are meant for research and not necessary to follow. Why there are 3 different versions, long medium, and small. It is important to obey Hidayat of Imam of the time. DUS AVTARS ARE NOT INCLUDED IN ISMAILI ARTICLES OF FAITH. Literary and intellectual discussion is fine. This is my opinion as every one has right of his/her opinion.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 23136

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivatrivedi wrote:
With reference to KIM, MSMS has said FORGET 9 AVTARS AND PRAISE MOWLA ALI. Question is why he reminded us to forget 9 Avtars?
If we follow the current Imam/Avatar, that does not mean that the previous Avatars did not exist or they have no history.
shivatrivedi wrote:
Mission of Pirs completed and Piratan merged with Imamat, THERE IS NO MASS CONVERSIONS NOW A DAYS. Ginans on 10 Avtars are not recited in JKs on Hidayat of Imam. These Ginans according to 1969 Ginan workshop are meant for research and not necessary to follow. Why there are 3 different versions, long medium, and small. It is important to obey Hidayat of Imam of the time. DUS AVTARS ARE NOT INCLUDED IN ISMAILI ARTICLES OF FAITH. Literary and intellectual discussion is fine. This is my opinion as every one has right of his/her opinion.
You are entitled to your opinion, so long as you are respectful for others' opinions as well.

The Imam is the Gurnar or ShahPir hence the Iamat and Piratan are always merged. However the Imam may choose to delegate the role of Piratan to another member of the Ahl al-Bayt such as in the past.

Obviously no one is asked to follow the previous Avatars. All they are asked is to acknowledge that there is a recorded history of them as a continuation of the line of Imamat and the impact they had upon history. There is a Farman of MSMS that we have to study the philosophy of Das Avatars. This Farman has never been superseded.

The fact that the Ginans about Das Avatars are there at least for research shows that they have historical and intellectual relevance, otherwsie they would have been completely discarded.


Last edited by kmaherali on Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 6246

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
There is a Farman of MSMS that we have to study the philosophy of Das Avatars. This Farman has never been superseded.


Not to forget that in a handwritten affidavit signed by Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah in the British Court, the concept of Das Avatar is mentioned among the important tenets of the Ismaili faith.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 6246

PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:48 pm    Post subject: Das Avatar dans l'Ismailism et la continuitee de l'Imamat Reply with quote

The Concept of Das Avatar and the continuity of Imamat has been discussed in this monograph of early 1980s' with lists of Imams, tables etc.. sources mainly in Ginans and Granths. Of importance, names of many Imams BEFORE the Das Avatar have been given from ginanic sources, well before the time of the Hindus icon_wink.gif

Link to the monograph is:

http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/files/imamat-et-das-avatar-nagib.pdf

While text is in French, lists and tables can be read by all. Here is an example but there is much more if the PDF link above:







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Aakash



Joined: 27 Mar 2018
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:02 pm    Post subject: Anyone got DAS Avatar nano written in Gujarati please, Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad,
I am really getting wonderful knowledge by these post, thanks to all.
May I kindly request, if anyone of you can get me the meaning of some difficult words in Das Avatar Nano by Pir Sadardin.
I got the meaning book but it is in Marathi language and I can’t read Marathi
Kindly help me to get a copy as I really in need of it.

I will be very much grateful
Awaiting reply.


Last edited by Aakash on Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total
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KayBur



Joined: 26 May 2021
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at the necessary book on E-Bay, very often there are rare, vintage and other unusual things that cannot be found on the shelves of ordinary stores.
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Aakash



Joined: 27 Mar 2018
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks for reply,

I am looking for meaning of some difficult words in Das Avatar

If any one got a book with meaning please let me know.
Or
If any one can transfer from Marathi to Gujarati or English as I got the meaning book in Marathi Language.
Kind regards
Aakash
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