www.ismaili.net

Admin wrote:It is normal to be excited and sometimes hurt about religion. But I see lately a lot of anger in postings, in the discussions leading to personal attacks from all sides and foul language. Please lets be civilised and keep away from such behaviour which serve no purpose.

Your observation is right but you allowed the situation to spin out of control. You allowed that boy from karimabad to post derogatory statement. In first place you should have deleted or edited the post as you have been doing with my posts. Burden of blame is also on you.
I inquired about Allamah Saheb, I was told he is aged, still alive, and has not claimed to be imam. He has written more than 100 books on Ismailism and Ta'weel of Quran, you and Kmaherali and others have collection of his books. His material is widely used in waizes like late missionary Abu Ali. My simple question, Is any Satpunthi Ismaili in past 500 years have written 100+ books on Ismailism? If yes name it. On internet impression went all over that Ismailis do not respect their elders. That particular boy should debate the person who is challenging Satpunthi Ismailis and has posted lot of filth and disrespect for Imam and his family on U TUBE. I am sure he will not because he has no guts, he wants an easy plate farm.

ismaili103 wrote:

Your observation is right but you allowed the situation to spin out of control. You allowed that boy from karimabad to post derogatory statement. In first place you should have deleted or edited the post as you have been doing with my posts. Burden of blame is also on you.
I inquired about Allamah Saheb, I was told he is aged, still alive, and has not claimed to be imam. He has written more than 100 books on Ismailism and Ta'weel of Quran, you and Kmaherali and others have collection of his books. His material is widely used in waizes like late missionary Abu Ali. My simple question, Is any Satpunthi Ismaili in past 500 years have written 100+ books on Ismailism? If yes name it. On internet impression went all over that Ismailis do not respect their elders. That particular boy should debate the person who is challenging Satpunthi Ismailis and has posted lot of filth and disrespect for Imam and his family on U TUBE. I am sure he will not because he has no guts, he wants an easy plate farm.

Fitst of all, that anti ismaili mazhar shah aka 10+ Id's has disrespect Ismailism as well as Imam and his Farmans and Pirs and his Ginans,

So far in 1000+ post by his 10+ ID's his olnly agenda is to degrade ismailis of subcontinent origin as well as Imam and Pir ( Mazhar Shah has a specialization in disrespecting Pir)

If he think that he will use foul language for our Imam and Pir and no one bats an eye on him, so he is totally wrong. I will always beat him hard verbally.

And BTW hurry up , give me the answer of Imam sultan mohd shah will and plzz make an word or pdf file of the name of the books written by allama, if you can't then that means all the central asian ismailis are liar.

Might be 500 years ago any ismaili from subcontinent might written 5000 books on ismailism and over the time that books can't able survive.

I can easily send you many pics of Allama on PM where he was wearing JABBA and sitting on a seat in vest and shorts and kissing his so called murids hands and feet and doing disgusted things. But I'll not send you those pics because I don't want to waste my time on you anymore. Go and search his images on google images.

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote: You misunderstood me or twisting my statement. I am not involved in Shia Sunni conflict and not a part of killer bees. ARE YOU?
You did not answer my question, I asked, is soul created as Shia soul or Sunni soul?
Imam's words are golden but any Shia group or Sunni group listening to it!!

You can view diversity as conflict or you can view diversity as a source of strength. It is upto you. Diversity is inherent in creation. It is the nature of creation as explained by The Aga Khan IV which I quoted in my last post. Although we are all created from one soul - the Universal Soul, each individual part is different. The Quran States:

Verse (49:13) - English Translation

Pickthall: O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.

Each soul goes through many cycles of rebirth and therefore is a product of the past lives. Therefore when he is born a Shia his soul has Shite tendencies and if he was born a Sunni, the soul has Sunni tendencies. We are born according to our past Karma.

Beat verbally hard the person who is openly disrespecting Imam and his family members and Sutpunthi Ismailis on U TUBE, if you have guts and courage answer him. He is challenging openly. You need just soft play ground to show your heroism.
If any sutpunthi has written 5000 thousand books name the writer, this shows how informed you are. These are childish statements and a weeping joke. You last your credibility.
I believe Hazar Imam. Obey Allah, Obey Rasul and Ulil Amr as mentioned in Du'a, Has Imam mentioned wrong in Da'a, which you recite every day, may be not THAT'S WHY YOU ARE ILL INFORMED. Imam is every thing including pir BUT NOT ALLAH. It is nice to see you keep counting MY IDs, Mr. momin momin 103 and ismaili 103 and KARIM JIVANI. ( I forgot he is your teacher) Oops.
E

Which Mulla told you that Islam does not believe in reincarnation?

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote:Wahdat is translated in Kasrat and Kasrat is diversity in all natural phenomenon. That diversity descends in human beings. Natural diversity does not licence to kill each other on conceptual grounds.
Shia /Sunni conflict is not because of natural diversity but it is doctrinal and conceptual
You quoted Quranic verse, TRUE, but Allah divided ALL HUMAN BEINGS in nations and tribes so that they recognize each other and not cut throats. No where in ayat Allah indicated that humans are divided in Shia and Sunni sects.
A passing remark, Islam does not believe in re incarnation as Hindus does.

The intention of diversity is to make the world a better place so that we can learn from each other, otherwise if we were all alike it would be a boring place. Diversity was not created to kill and destroy but those who have political motivations can manipulate the diversity to satisfy their own agendas.

Those with intellects will be able to make the connection between tribes and sects/faiths.

Which Mulla told you that Islam does not believe in reincarnation?

ismaili103 wrote:

Beat verbally hard the person who is openly disrespecting Imam and his family members and Sutpunthi Ismailis on U TUBE, if you have guts and courage answer him. He is challenging openly. You need just soft play ground to show your heroism.
If any sutpunthi has written 5000 thousand books name the writer, this shows how informed you are. These are childish statements and a weeping joke. You last your credibility.
I believe Hazar Imam. Obey Allah, Obey Rasul and Ulil Amr as mentioned in Du'a, Has Imam mentioned wrong in Da'a, which you recite every day, may be not THAT'S WHY YOU ARE ILL INFORMED. Imam is every thing including pir BUT NOT ALLAH. It is nice to see you keep counting MY IDs, Mr. momin momin 103 and ismaili 103 and KARIM JIVANI. ( I forgot he is your teacher) Oops.
E

There are lacs of fake videos and content about Imam available on internet, I don't even give attention to them, neither I know their email, fb id etc to debate with them.

I don't even care about what they are saying on internet, non ismailis love and enjoy those videos and even share those videos just like you non ismaili enjoy those fake videos about Imam, thats why you know that there are so many videos about our Imam on internet.

I know two person sundus hashwani( zznoor ) and advocate mazhar shah from chicago .

Did you even know the meaning of " Might be" , I said might be 500 years ago any ismaili from subcontinent wrote 5000 books, I never said that he or she had wrote 5000 books , so stop pretend to be so innocent to no able to understand simple English.

I believe in Hazir Imam, and Hazir Imam is only one, Imam is Noor and that Noor is Allah, Imam changes his body in every era.

Hurry up, answer the question about Imam Sultan Moh'd Shah's will,.

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote:As usual you dodged my important paragraph. Let me remind you. I wrote," It was you who in posts have refuted that 1000 years old philosophy that is of Fatimid period is not applicable in modern era, and asked you who are Huddud e Din now a days as you favored the statement of Rashidah.

Rashida in her article did not mention any Fatimid Hududs. She just mentioned one hudud - the Hujjah of the Imam, which was Bibi Khadija. The same notion of Hujja is applicable even today and is called the Pir. So she did not mention any outdated concepts.

shivaathervedi wrote: Regarding Bibi Khadijah I used references from Shia history where as your reference is Sunni point of view.
I think some insane Muslim will accept that Bibi was spiritual Mentor of Prophet. It is other way round. Just to prove your point that she was spiritual Mentor of Prophet, you people have no choice but to declare she was 15 years older than Prophet.
You did not shed light on 80,000 camels in possession of Bibi, True or False?
What about Waraqah ben Nawfal, was he an Ismaili Dai? Any historical proof.
Did Islam started to progress because of her and became universal Religion? You dogged these above questions!

Bibi Khadija is universally known to have been 15 years older than the Prophet. Any source whether Shia or Sunni will confirm that fact. Our Ismaili historians have also said that.

She did provide the sources from which she got the figure of 80,000 camels. Whether it is accurate or not, we know that she was a very wealthy woman. Most historians accept that.

About Waraqa based on her sources she writes:

"The dimension given in the esoteric literature is very different. Hadrat Khadija was the Hujjat of the Lord of the time and as such she was in charge of 30 dais who worked under her to spread the True Religion. Waraqah ibn Nawfal, her cousin was actually one of the dais working under her supervision."

I have no reason to doubt the above.

She supported the Prophet both materially and spiritually and therefore her contribution to Islam was vital.

shivaathervedi wrote:I BELIEVE PROPHET MUHAMMAD WAS NOT A PIR AND PROPHETHOOD IS ABOVE PIRATAN.

Admin wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote:I BELIEVE PROPHET MUHAMMAD WAS NOT A PIR AND PROPHETHOOD IS ABOVE PIRATAN.

Your belief is your belief. You can not impose your beliefs to people who know.

Many people believe that prophet Muhammad was not a Pir or was not a Prophet. That would certainly not change whatever God made of Prophet Muhammad, he was.

That's it. Your personal opinion is irrelevant.

As a matter of principle, it is very difficult to debate based on sources and information and knowledge with people who do not have the basic reasoning power needed to understand sources and knowledge. I congratulate K.M. for trying with so much patience though.

Regarding 5000 books, you wrote might be, when you were not sure why you tried to misguide readers. If we count each ginan as a book, still that number will not cross 900 books in 600 years by 33 Pirs and sadaats.
You wear glasses, double check your eye sigh #s. In many of my posts I have written piratan is in our system, so what is this all fuss about will of MSMS. I BELIEVE PROPHET MUHAMMAD WAS NOT A PIR AND PROPHETHOOD IS ABOVE PIRATAN

ismaili103 wrote:

Regarding 5000 books, you wrote might be, when you were not sure why you tried to misguide readers. If we count each ginan as a book, still that number will not cross 900 books in 600 years by 33 Pirs and sadaats.
You wear glasses, double check your eye sigh #s. In many of my posts I have written piratan is in our system, so what is this all fuss about will of MSMS. I BELIEVE PROPHET MUHAMMAD WAS NOT A PIR AND PROPHETHOOD IS ABOVE PIRATAN

Oh my God, another unfounded claim by you,

Missionary kada ruda, one of the greatest of all time ismaili missionary, Imam Sultan Mohd many time gave his e.g in his many farmans. Kada Ruda wrote in his book that our Pirs wrote more than 10 million verses of ginans, but we lost more than 90% of the work because of the war, natural calmaties , migration etc.

100 million verse can easily made more than 50000 books.

BTW I never wore glasses in my life, but I will wore one someday.

Imams will matters, Imam clearly wrote that Shah Karim is your 50th Pir, so who was the first pir, mohammad was the first pir thats it. You dada was also recited name of mohammad as first pir in his dua, even syrian ismailis recited the same Gujarati dua as confirmed by admin, so you have nothing to say. Now come well prepared.

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote: Navroji Dumasia in his book wrote published in 1939 name 'Aga Khan and his Ancesters' that at time of marriage Bibi Khadijah was almost of same age of Prophet, and Bibi Fatima and Hazrat Qasim were only children from Bibi. Al Hakim in Mustdrak has written that when Bibi married to Prophet she was 28 years old. Mostly Shia traditions narrate the same age at time of marriage. Do you believe Bibi had 6 childern from Prophet?.

The scholarship of Islam has improved significantly since 1939 especially in the Western World. All scholars of repute including Annemarie Schimmel have said that Bibi Khadija was much older than the Prophet. Abu Aly and other Ismaili scholars have said the same. I don't think that the number of children has any bearing upon her status.

shivaathervedi wrote: When Rashidah was discussing spirituality of Bibi, from where 80,000 camels got in and what was the connection of camels with spirituality..

The 80,000 camels was an indication of her wealth. She inherited a lot of wealth from her father and she managed her wealth wisely afterwards. In Islam there is nothing conflictual about being wealthy and spirituality, as long as the means are lawful.

shivaathervedi wrote: You wrote, Bibi was Hujjah/Hudd and there were 30 Dai's that is Hudud e Din
working under her and her cousin Waraqah ben Nawfal was one of Dai. But in history books it is mentioned Waraqah never adopted Islam.
If hujjat= Pir=Hudd, then who are these 30 special Dai's or Huddud e Din now a days? If not, means that 30 Huddud philosophy is not applicable, no more.

History is always based the the point of view of the person writing history. Based on the primary sources that Rashida quoted, Waraqa was a hanif and a dai.

There were 30 dais during that time. The time has changed today and perhaps we have more than 30 dais, but the concept of dais has not changed. They still function today either through our institutions or as silent dais (through example).

Missionary Kara Ruda was a great missionary. Will you mention the name of book written by him in which he claimed there were 10 million verses of ginans by Pirs, mention the page number. These can be published in say may be 100 volumes and not 50,000. RUDUKI wrote 1.2 million verses alone. Sachal Sarmast around one million verses.
I asked few questions about that Gujrati/Sindhi Du'a, so far Admin has not answered. When he will answer, I have few more for him, then you will have little fun.
In your recent photo I have seen you wearing glasses, Oops.
Tell me, when are you going to debate with that person on U TUBE and that will be fun for me.

kmaherali wrote:The Imam has used the word Dai in his Farman:

Pensez bien aux Dais dans le temps, et ceux qui sont partis seuls, sans savoir où ils allaient, sans savoir ce qu'ils allaient rencontrer, quelles allaient être les conditions de vie qu'ils allaient rencontrer. (Abidjan, Côte d'Ivoire, Le lundi 2 août 1965.)

Admin wrote:

kmaherali wrote:The Imam has used the word Dai in his Farman:

Pensez bien aux Dais dans le temps, et ceux qui sont partis seuls, sans savoir où ils allaient, sans savoir ce qu'ils allaient rencontrer, quelles allaient être les conditions de vie qu'ils allaient rencontrer. (Abidjan, Côte d'Ivoire, Le lundi 2 août 1965.)

I can vouch that the present Imam said in my presence in 2010 that "When the Farmans have been changed, the Dai'is have been hurt"

So the concept of Dai's is still alive today as much as it was in the past.

ismaili103 wrote:

Missionary Kara Ruda was a great missionary. Will you mention the name of book written by him in which he claimed there were 10 million verses of ginans by Pirs, mention the page number. These can be published in say may be 100 volumes and not 50,000. RUDUKI wrote 1.2 million verses alone. Sachal Sarmast around one million verses.
I asked few questions about that Gujrati/Sindhi Du'a, so far Admin has not answered. When he will answer, I have few more for him, then you will have little fun.

I listen that in one waez of late Abu Ali missionary 3 years ago, the waez was on Pirs life in which he also discussed about the saints and missionaries of Ismailism.

We are not talking about 2 lined sindhi peotry, many of the Pir Ginans have 10-12 lines in one verse. 100 volumes with 500 p.g thick book can't even contain more than 1 lakh verses, and here we are talking about 10 million ( 1 crore ) verses.

Might be you are following wrong person, keep searching me, Mai to ramta jogi hu, kabhi idher to kabhi udhr.

If I'll debate with that Afridi on email, then how come you get to know about it, there are two possibilities either that afridi is one of your another ID but on utube OR he is your friend and it's all your mili bhagat, CHOR KI DHARI MA TINKA Umm?

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote:Why Ismailis depend upon western scholars? Don't they have guts to go through primary sources in Arabic and Persian as Imam mentioned in his farman. I have seen mostly scholars follow translations by western scholars..

If you read Rashida's article you will find a quote from the Farman highlighting going yo primary sources. Her article is based on primary sources.

shivaathervedi wrote: When Ismailis say, they are Shias then they must follow Shia traditions. The number of children is important. There is variance in Shia and Sunni traditions..

Please explain how or why the number of children are important.

shivaathervedi wrote: No doubt Bibi was a wealthy business woman no match at that time, BUT again my question is what those 80,000 camel have to do with spirituality of Bibi?.

Being wealthy and at the same time being spiritual is indeed unique and challenging. It is easy to be spiritual if you have less wealth because don't have to deal with the negative aspects of wealth - power, fame, pride, attachment etc. But managing wealth and overcoming the negative aspects makes spirituality even more remarkable.

shivaathervedi wrote: The word Da'i is no more in use today same for Huddud e Din.

The Imam has used the word Dai in his Farman:

Pensez bien aux Dais dans le temps, et ceux qui sont partis seuls, sans savoir où ils allaient, sans savoir ce qu'ils allaient rencontrer, quelles allaient être les conditions de vie qu'ils allaient rencontrer. (Abidjan, Côte d'Ivoire, Le lundi 2 août 1965.)

Which google translates as:

Imagine the Dais in time, and those who have left alone, without knowing where they were going, without knowing what they were going to meet, what would be the living conditions they would encounter.

When Alwaiz Abu Ali passed away, and when he was last in Karachi. Yours 3 years back hearing of his waiz may be in dream!!
I asked you the name of book written by Missionary Kara Ruda and page number, this shows you are neither idhar nor udhar. Answer the real question.

You did not mentioned Rudiki and hit at 2 lines Sindhi poetry, the reason is you have little knowledge, just keep jumping up and down to show I am some body.

It is not through e mail but he will record the discussion and put on U TUBE so that it should be all over on inter net, he has already posted the tele #, it is a free call and on internet and a free ride.

ismaili103 wrote:

When Alwaiz Abu Ali passed away, and when he was last in Karachi. Yours 3 years back hearing of his waiz may be in dream!!
I asked you the name of book written by Missionary Kara Ruda and page number, this shows you are neither idhar nor udhar. Answer the real question.

You did not mentioned Rudiki and hit at 2 lines Sindhi poetry, the reason is you have little knowledge, just keep jumping up and down to show I am some body.

It is not through e mail but he will record the discussion and put on U TUBE so that it should be all over on inter net, he has already posted the tele #, it is a free call and on internet and a free ride.

Oh my God, I think I'm talking with difuse, you reached America but your mind is still somewhere in the mountains os C.A, do you even know the meaning of Mp3 , Mp4. I had listen Abu Ali's that Waez in my mobile phone 3 years ago, I have his many waezes save in my Phone. And I forgot that in which waez I listen that.

Rudiki, I guess his name was Rodaki, a famous Ismaili Poet, I'll love to read his writings if I will get any chance to read it in future. He was great Ismaili Poet but no one have any right to compare famouse poets, saints, syeds and dais with PIRS. Its like comparing Sahaba's with Prophet Muhammad S.A.S.

So you want me to call that guy and discuss with him so he can upload it on utube? Get a life, I don't want thousands of people view that conversation which can affect the lives of Ismailis in Pakistan, and when I'm talking about Ismailis, it includes ismailis of C.A origin living in Pakistan. When any Mullah minded try to hurt any Ismaili, he or she just hurt ismaili whether from gilgit, hunza, gujarat, sindh etc. 4 years ago there was a grenade attack on 2 JK in karachi, one was metrovile which has 90% of afghani, hunzai and chitrali population. I can discuss core and sensitive concepts of ismailism on ismaili.net without any fear because traffic on this web is very low and majority of the searchers don't know about this web.

DARD ABB JA KE UTHHA;
May be numbness is over, finally you are thinking about the lives of Ismailis. Let me remind you; Last year I pleaded you and your like minded to refrain from postings against one particular sect because there should be repercussions. I pointed out the event of Safurah, in early 80's what happened in Chitral, then in Gilgit, and lately in Metroyille and Karimabad JKs. NOW YOU HAVE REPEATED MY WORDINGS. Means you are realizing the danger. Individual skirmishes are in 100s where Ismailis were beaten. But at that time your horses were flying high and you kept posting statements like trun kutra and other insults. Imam is talking about Pluralism and
Reconciliation.
You wrote," On ismaili.net you post without fear because traffic is low and majority of researchers do not know about this web site." I do not think so, once Admins claimed there are thousands of visitors each day. But your HIGH LIGHT words are without Fear. So it shows you are scared to discuss issues with U TUBE guy for your personal protection. By the way he has discussed with many Ismailis and couple of Alwaizeen, and this is all on U TUBE. He is not threatening to kill Ismailis just discussing. Make up your mind, if you have knowledge and you are well prepared go ahead. You might have listened his discussions and decided not to indulge. No courage.
America ki yaad bahut satati hai tumhe(n), catch the flight 103 and fly.
Rudiki's mostly literature is destroyed very little left in Persian and you do not know the language, you even do not know your mother tongue that is Gujrati. I encourage you to learn Arabic and Persian.

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote: But at present Huddud e Din scheme is abolished in our Tariqa. Just mentioning of word Da'i has not revived the Huddud e Din system it was in pro Fatimid and post Fatimid Da'wat system. There is no place for Huddud e Din in Satpunthi literature.

Obviously the Huddud eDin scheme as that existing during the Fatimid period no longer exists today due to changed circumstances, but the Dawat still continues through the institutions and individuals - even through internet such as this forum.

shivaathervedi wrote: I am unable to understand what Imam meant," Imagine Dais in time, and those who have left alone, without knowing where they are going." Need complete farman to understand in what context was he explainig. Is this Farman included in G E of KIZ? ?

Yes this Farman is available in the KIZ but it is in French and you will need to translate into English using Google Translate or the help of people like the Admin who know French. This was just one example but the Imam has used the term Dai frequently especially in Mandlis (about which nothing can be said here).

shivaathervedi wrote: Regarding children of Bibi, there are 2 children mentioned in Shia tradition and in Sunni tradition there are 6 mentioned. What I wanted to point out out that Ismailis being Shias they should fallow Shia tradition about age of Bibi and her children. Question arises why Abu Ali Saheb adopted Sunni version?

You have not answered why the numbers matter., why should we follow the Shia tradition of numbers?

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote: You wrote," Why the numbers matter." Historically does. Ismailis are Shias, should follow Shia traditions, as Imam said we follow Tariqa e Ja'fariyah.

Where does it say in Ja'fariya Madhhab that the number of children of the Imams matter?