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dress code

 
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79378503



Joined: 19 Aug 2009
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:05 pm    Post subject: dress code Reply with quote

I am a teen who is only trying to understand this faith and its customs. How should women dress to JK?

Last edited by 79378503 on Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total
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Biryani



Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 232
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You’re getting angry and upset by other people’s dress style in Jamat Khana??

You must be hell of a staunch wardrobe critic...arn't ya?

First, I wanna know if that’s your phone number or ID bar code number on your neck or something…before we tell us if there is any dress code in Jamat Khana,…if there is any, other than what common sense will tell ya…
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TheMaw



Joined: 14 Feb 2009
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biryani wrote:
You’re getting angry and upset by other people’s dress style in Jamat Khana??
No, he gets angry and upset by how women dress. Don't gloss that bit over, now.

What, are they wearing a thong on bottom and no top? We don't veil, you know. Our current Imam said, "Mon grand-père a été le premier à inciter les femmes à quitter le voile. Le Coran établit une nette différence entre les femmes-esclaves - celles qui n'existent que dans le regard des hommes, par leurs parures - et les femmes libres. Les femmes doivent être libres, de nos jours, responsables de leur conduite. Il n'est pas question de se cacher, pas plus que de se parer."

In English, that means: "My Grandfather was the first to push women to cease veiling. The Qur'an established a crucial difference between female slaves - those who exist only through the regard of men, for their desires - and free women. Women have [all] became free, in our time, responsible for their conduct. There is no issue of hiding oneself or making oneself look good anymore."

There is no matter of dress, only of conduct. With slavery abolished, all women are free and there is no longer a need to obsess over differences in dress that distinguished those independent women (who veiled themselves) from those who are owned (who were made to look sexy).

The distinction no longer exists. Wear what is comfortable and pleasing and reasonably modest. Unless someone's nipples are showing (male OR female), what is the problem?
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheMaw wrote:
Biryani wrote:
You’re getting angry and upset by other people’s dress style in Jamat Khana??
No, he gets angry and upset by how women dress. Don't gloss that bit over, now.

What, are they wearing a thong on bottom and no top? We don't veil, you know. Our current Imam said, "Mon grand-père a été le premier à inciter les femmes à quitter le voile. Le Coran établit une nette différence entre les femmes-esclaves - celles qui n'existent que dans le regard des hommes, par leurs parures - et les femmes libres. Les femmes doivent être libres, de nos jours, responsables de leur conduite. Il n'est pas question de se cacher, pas plus que de se parer."

In English, that means: "My Grandfather was the first to push women to cease veiling. The Qur'an established a crucial difference between female slaves - those who exist only through the regard of men, for their desires - and free women. Women have [all] became free, in our time, responsible for their conduct. There is no issue of hiding oneself or making oneself look good anymore."

There is no matter of dress, only of conduct. With slavery abolished, all women are free and there is no longer a need to obsess over differences in dress that distinguished those independent women (who veiled themselves) from those who are owned (who were made to look sexy).

The distinction no longer exists. Wear what is comfortable and pleasing and reasonably modest. Unless someone's nipples are showing (male OR female), what is the problem?


I think it's about more than the nipples showing....what if a dress is too short from the bottom.........
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Biryani



Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 232
Location: London

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheMaw wrote:
Biryani wrote:
You’re getting angry and upset by other people’s dress style in Jamat Khana??
No, he gets angry and upset by how women dress. Don't gloss that bit over, now.

There is no matter of dress, only of conduct. With slavery abolished, all women are free and there is no longer a need to obsess over differences in dress that distinguished those independent women (who veiled themselves) from those who are owned (who were made to look sexy).


So women are not people? Or are they above the male people now due to your so called liberation from some sorta victimhood of men’s dominance from some past times or something. Why “women” have to be pacifically distinguished from “people”….would you have pointed out if it was about men and if had called them people?…I guess not. and I wonder, what this Slavery, as generally understood of, has anything to do with women’s dressing anywhere nowadays…

How someone dresses is part of his/her conduct… at professional work environments there is sometimes strict dress codes and violating them has its repercussion…up to termination for disorderly conduct…if someone goes naked in public…or with just bare minimum as just in underwear…or topless, he or she will be thrown out and banned from there or even arrested depending upon situation. So inappropriate dressing in public is part of your conduct…

It’s pretty much a common sense around the world in any given society and culture or religion about how to dress in religious settings…that is modestly. And if someone is not… then it’s their problem and I won’t hurt myself by getting angry…Anger is man's ultimate enemy.

Speaking of this thing that is called Veil or Pardah…I personally don’t think that there is such a thing that exist or should exist…in the context of it’s current meaning. I mean whatever it is that word refers to is illegitimate, irrational, and probably the most annoying factor that is wrongly associated with the faith of Islam by some people and we should not give it any credit to be attached with our religion in any direct or indirect way by even acknowledging of such a miscarriage of reality. It can be just a social custom whoever wants to have whatever that is…
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:48 am    Post subject: Re: dress code Reply with quote

79378503 wrote:
I am a teen who is only trying to understand this faith and its customs. How should women dress to JK? I see alot of dress styles that make me angry and upset when i go to Khane.

No there is not a dress code what to wear and what not to wear in JK! but every one should need to wear decent and appropriate dress.
I still remember that one Mukhiani Saheba requested my brother's wife not to wear a particular Saree in Jamat Khana in Pakistan and she just obeyed her request without any hesitation or any fight, but now a days Mukhi/Kamadias can not dare to tell anyone not to wear any dress which make angry and upset to the Jamati members like you and me.
unfortunately now a days women dressing like they are going in any fashion show or in cat walk show not for the pray in Jamat Khanas.
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prince_visram



Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 188

PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Various Ginans on Clothing && Dressing:

Ginan: Qalaam-e-Mowla

jeene aap tanku(n) vaaraa, rab zaad vase us man saaree;
e bhalaa hae usathee, jo laal maannak pehene or pehene kapadde zarataaree;
khudaa to nee-at ne deel dekhe, na dekhe surat or libaas;
atalas pahene to keeyaa huvaa, or keeyaa huvaa jo pehene karabaas......214

The ones who have controlled their bodies, the remembrance of the Lord resides in their hearts entirely. They are better than the ones who adore themselves with rubies and jewels and who wear expensive clothes. God sees the intentions and the heart, He does not see the face or the clothing. So what if one wears silk clothing and so what if one wears high quality (designer!) clothes.

Ginan: Suno Suno Momano Sun Man Laavanaa


aalam koee bujhe naahee(n), sab jaahel ho jaave jee;
elam ku(n) koee bujhe naahee(n),
sab leebaas kapadde pahechhaane jee;
reshamee kapadde pahen-kar aave, use khudaa kar maane jee;
ye dase baateeaa(n) sahee kar bujho, cheto bhaaee saveraa jee;
duneeaa me(n) se barakat mohobat sharam esee dase baateeaa(n) chaleeyaa(n),
tab keeaamat kee neesaanee jee;
peer shamas kala(n)dar eeyu(n) kaheaa,
aayaa kaaem shaahaa kaa vaaraa jee...............................12

No learned man will understand, and all will become ignorant. No one will understand knowledge, but all will recognise just clothes and dress. They will consider the one who comes dressed in silken clothes to be God.

Understand properly these ten things, and take heed in good time, o brother. When the ten things, such as prosperity, love and modesty have entirely departed from the world, then the sign of the Resurrection appears. Peer Shams the Qalandar says: the time of the Lord of the Resurrection has come.

From the story of Tara Rani && Harischandra in various Ginans

"The queen discarded her most precious jewellary and adopted most simple religious dress. She then went to the stable and took the most valuable horse Hanslo and left for the place of worship. On that day the king followed her discreetly as she left."

[I] Ginan: Vaavso Tevu(n) Lunnso [\I]

Eji Gali-naa vastra vege vaari-e,
sri Bharam aasanne peri nav avi-e;
tethi dev lok alagaa chhe,
bhaai gali Gandhi-ne ttaalli-e 4

Meaning:

Do not wear clothes dyed in 'Gali', when visiting the seat of the Creator (place of worship) because then the angels will keep away from you.

Brothers, keep away from this dirty gali.

Explanation:

'Gali' ia a type of bark from which dye is made. It yields good colour, but brings out a very pungent smell. Syyed Imaamshaah is explaining that wearing such clothes in Jamaat Khaanaa is not advisable, because they keep away all the good spirits.
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79378503



Joined: 19 Aug 2009
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You’re getting angry and upset by other people’s dress style in Jamat Khana??

You must be hell of a staunch wardrobe critic...arn't ya?

First, I wanna know if that’s your phone number or ID bar code number on your neck or something…before we tell us if there is any dress code in Jamat Khana,…if there is any, other than what common sense will tell ya…


Some obviously have not understood my question....

why do women come to jk in clothing that is above their knees and elbows when i was taught in mission class that the Imam's grandfather said that when you go to JK you should wear clothing above your knees and elbows...

some of you have understood my question and agree with my point, others are still ignorant to the issue


Last edited by 79378503 on Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total
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Biryani



Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 232
Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the Prisoner number 79383503,

It’s not an issue...except for some people it may be a personal issue of making up an issue out of non-issue tissues …

Without getting further in details on such a non-issue tissue...I will just say that you will probably have to go to a lot of more mission classes in life to make it a non issue for yourself…
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79378503



Joined: 19 Aug 2009
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies,
it has helped me understand a little more about my faith and its traditions.mI will continue to find answer to more of my questions and hopefully i will get them answered by some of you on this site.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:37 am    Post subject: stop accuse any one. Reply with quote

[quote="Biryani"]To the Prisoner number 79383503,
Biryani will you please stop to accuse anybody, I certainly beleive this teen is not a prisoner.
This forum is for everybody so please stop to discourage this teen or any new comer to join in this forum and let them ask any question they may have, I know you have lot of knowledge!!!!
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Biryani



Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 232
Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Mr. / Ms. agakhani,

Well, I was just trying to put little jokes in our discussion…of course I know that he/she is not a prisoner of anything, except life….aren’t we all?

Anyways, even if you were just being sarcastic, I just wanna say that I do not have knowledge anymore than what an average Joe does.

One important thing, on which I might be right or wrong, is that a lot of us take the teachings of our faith, including Farmans of Hazar Imam, Hazrat Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah’s and of previous Imams’ and Hadiths of Prophet Muhammad and Quran Sharif without considering to account the context of time, place and other relevancies that could make a big difference in the interpretations of those teachings.

A piece of guideline can be totally out of line if applied in the wrong time and the wrong place and to the people of different backgrounds. Though, some things are never meant to be changed or altered but some things definitely are more dynamic and sensitive.
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prince_visram



Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 188

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biryani wrote:
Dear Mr. / Ms. agakhani,

Well, I was just trying to put little jokes in our discussion…of course I know that he/she is not a prisoner of anything, except life….aren’t we all?

Anyways, even if you were just being sarcastic, I just wanna say that I do not have knowledge anymore than what an average Joe does.

One important thing, on which I might be right or wrong, is that a lot of us take the teachings of our faith, including Farmans of Hazar Imam, Hazrat Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah’s and of previous Imams’ and Hadiths of Prophet Muhammad and Quran Sharif without considering to account the context of time, place and other relevancies that could make a big difference in the interpretations of those teachings.

A piece of guideline can be totally out of line if applied in the wrong time and the wrong place and to the people of different backgrounds. Though, some things are never meant to be changed or altered but some things definitely are more dynamic and sensitive.


Yes, but by telling such "jokes" I am sure some may take it seriously - I definitely could not tell what you meant by "prisoner".. I found that quite offensive. Also, lets just stick to the point to avoid such discussions. Please don't take me wrong,

Prince_Visram
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mazharshah



Joined: 18 Oct 2018
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am in favor of dress code. Preferably white dress. The dress should be appropriate covering body. It depends upon mukhi/kamdias. In 1967, Imam sent a special blessing letter to Momina jamait of Aminabad Hyderabad Sindh, adoring and appreciating jamait's wearing of white dress (ladies and gents) while attending prayers. This all happened because of mukhi's command.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19770

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is an anecdote about a woman presenting herself to the present Imam without sleeves during a mehmani. The anecdote is given below from Mumtaz Tajdin's "201 - Sweet Anecdotes of Four Beloved Imams " (page 115 ) and it can be accessed at:

http://ismaili.net/source/books/225anecdotes.pdf

(29) On 2nd September, 1979, Hazar Imam visited London to grace didar and other religious works in the Olympia Hall. During a mehamani, three young sisters joined together. Two among them were clad in ritual attires, but the third sister had put on a sleeveless shirt. The Imam blessed the two sister one after another and when the third sister came, the Imam said, “Today, you go to church.” She was bewildered and came down and drove a car to reach the church as per Imam’s orders.

She came in a big church and participated in the rites. Then, she joined the ladies queue with folded hands. They were moving towards the statue of Jesus Christ. When she came near it, the priest obstructed her and said, “Those ladies are allowed to appear before our Lord Jesus Christ who had worn a shirt having full sleeves.”

Being frustrated, she wept and condemned herself that, “My Imam is a Christ of Christs, who indirectly imparted me that in his presence, my shirt must have full sleeves.” She apologized and appeared before the Imam in a saintly dress in another mehmani. She sought remission and the Imam blessed her with Khanavadan and became happy.
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swamidada



Joined: 19 Aug 2019
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With reference to Mumtaz's anecdote on dress code, I heard 2 similar type of events during Pakistan visit in 1964.
It happened during mahmani in Garden jamaitkhana, when 2 young girls with nylon dress appeared before Hazar Imam for blessings, Imam sent them back to come in proper dress for blessings.

Also, it happened during Dhaka visit, when during mahmani a lady came in front of Imam wearing a dress showing her body, Imam sent her back saying I shall not give you blessings wearing this kind of dress.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5936

PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also a similar event happened in the early 1970s' in Paris during Mehmani. These are event to take lesson from. It is sad that some do not understand that Imam will not put his hand on their bare shoulders to give blessings. Simple and respectable dress is not only part of our faith but also part of logic of any faith.
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swamidada



Joined: 19 Aug 2019
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think LIF and ITREB leadership should make it compulsory that in the presence of Hazar Imam at Dedaar, Mahmani, Baitul Khayal Bol, and at religious gatherings murids should wear simple WHITE DRESSES.
In 1967, Hazar Imam sent special blessings to Aminabad momina jamait, Hyderabad Sindh, for their excellent discipline and wearing white dress while attending majalis and at prayer timings.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19770

PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The dress code should apply to Jamat Khana attendance first where the Imam is always present.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5936

PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In 1986 visit of Hazar Imam with Begum Salimah in USA, there was a meeting in Houston with some the ladies of the jamat and they were all white dress. I was not there (I am a man) but it was reported to me that during that meeting Begum Salimah told them, why are you all in white dress, your Imam wants to see you in happy and lively colours, I hope before going to Didar you will change for colourful dresses.
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swamidada



Joined: 19 Aug 2019
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
The dress code should apply to Jamat Khana attendance first where the Imam is always present.


Reproducing quote from my post:
In 1967, Hazar Imam sent special blessings to Aminabad momina jamait, Hyderabad Sindh, for their excellent discipline and wearing white dress while attending majalis and at prayer timings.
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