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Can any one tell me what the position of HI regarding the homosexuality is? Is it allowed to leave this type of life? If some one has this behavior then what should he do?
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Ya Aly Madad Chimmed,

I do not know about homosexuality in particular but our Ginans have explained

"Kaam(lust) Krodh(rage/anger) jena gat mahe zaher jaagiya

Tene jity jity daav sarve haariya"

Meaning- If lust and anger is made manifest in a persons body, that person looses every winning hand he had.


"Jeni maya mamta marae, kaam krodh sehjae paraharae"

Whoever is successful in eliminating permanently his attachment to the material world, has not problems with controlling lust and anger.


"Kanchan anae kaamini aadi ubhi mara saamini"

Money and femininity(worldly blessing) blocks me from my beloved (Mowla).

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Sexual desire is not unusual for a man or woman but what you allow to manifest in your physical being is what you have to answer for.

in the past year, I have come across a lot of gays in my professional life and I have come to accept them as part of the team, community and even friends. I have come to realize that they are people who are the way they are.... they were born with such emotions and feelings... so who are we to complain about gods will and creation?<BR><BR>

lakhania wrote:in the past year, I have come across a lot of gays in my professional life and I have come to accept them as part of the team, community and even friends. I have come to realize that they are people who are the way they are.... they were born with such emotions and feelings... so who are we to complain about gods will and creation?

There is a ginan kadi that goes

Aash to ek alakh ni kijae
avar sarvae aash nirash


Wish should be for the only Infinite (Aly) One
all other wishes will cause unhappiness

Reflect on this and the homosexuality issue dissapears into the background of illusion we call life on earth

I was once Ismaili, now a Christian for the past 5 years. The bible says that God said to Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. Homosexuality goes against God's plan. God put a man and a woman on earth, not 2 men or 2 women. Homosexuality is sin and it can be overcome. You are not born like that. Pray to God to forgive you and to set you free from this sin - he will do it - i've seen it happen in other peoples lives. Think of it this way, if everyone was homosexual - how would we be "fruitful and multiply"? It totally goes against God's plan for mankind. Hope this helps!

I have a question

if a man makes love to a man he is called homosexual.

How would masturbation fit in the picture?

It does not lead to procreation.

It is sexual acting out behavior practiced by a person upon him or herself which means the same sex. So is everyone who masturbates homosexual or lesbian.

When you reflect you will realize that the physical is one thing and the spirit is something else altogether.

All of this is an indulgence of the mind in material desire and sense pleasure, nothing else.

As Ismailies we have access to a much higher realm than this through our Imam.

If we start to look for him in our spirit then these questions fade into nothingness.

The entire creation is contingent to our perception and without that perceptual sense it is as if none of it was ever created.

When we elevate ourselves spiritually we recognize the illusion life really is, and this awareness helps deal with questions like these.

Shamsu,

That makes an excellent philosophy to lead an immortal life on this planet. It is true that when one reflects, he/she will realize that the physical is one thing and the spirit is something else altogether. Yet we cannot totally ignore these sublime questions, I mean think about it, although we may try to elevate ourselves spiritually yet the fact of the matter is that we are bound into this clay mound with responsibilities and rights for a particular time period.

As muslims we must have that strong belief in the life hereafter and must practice Tawakal here on earth, yet we are indeed responsible for a whole lot on earth too. I mean think about it wealth is a purely material and physical entity, then why is stealing a sin? Why do we regard it to be corrupting our souls and spirits? Because in essence it enseeds in us a desire for the material world, the illusion.

One of the responsibilities of the institutions of family and religion, as cited by sociologists and anthropologists, all around the world, is to monitor a person's sexual behaviour. Be it be masturbation, homosexuality, or heterosexuality or any other aspect of our social behaviour, our religion and culture condemns self indulgence and excess of all as it leads to greed and lust (thus corrupting the spirit). Even Dasoond implies the same philosophy, we as Ismailis give more because we believe in community strength, progress and well being.

I fully agree with your philosophy, but my point is that you can't altogether seperate the spiritual being from the physical existence. Hence the Zahiri part is very important, almost crucial for ordinary people like us,for batuni elevation. Especially in the light of the recent trends when quite a few Ismailis are converting to other religions, such as christianity, mainly because they fail to realize where to draw the line.

Regards,
Saadi

what does the quaran say about homosexuality?

Quranic References

There are five references in the Qur'an which have been cited as referring to gay and lesbian behavior. Some obviously deal with effeminate men and "masculine women." The two main references to homosexual behavior are:

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk." Qur'an 26:165

Both references relate to gay sexual activities; lesbian practices are not mentioned in the Qur'an.

Lut is referred to as "Lot" in the Hebrew Scriptures. This passage is an apparent reference to the activities at Sodom and Gamorah.(http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh.htm#sodom) It seems to imply that there was no homosexual behavior before it first appeared in Sodom. This is a uniquely Islamic concept; it does not appear in Jewish or Christian beliefs. The passage also links the sin of Sodom (the reason for its destruction) to homosexuality.

References from Hadiths

The Hadith are collections of sayings attributed to Muhammad. Many Hadiths (ahadith) discuss liwat (sexual intercourse between males). Two examples are:

When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes."

"Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to." (in reference to the active and passive partners in gay sexual intercourse)

There is at least one mention of lesbian behavior mentioned in the Hadith:

"Sihaq (lesbian sexual activity) of women is zina (illegitimate sexual intercourse) among them."

Traditionalist orthodox Muslims generally claim that the Hadith literature contains the authentic sayings of Muhammad. Many liberal Muslims doubt their authenticity. The latter might point out that during the times of the first Caliphs, Muslims did not know what to do with individuals guilty of "liwat/lutiyya". No sahabi (companion) of Muhammad could quote a saying or decision of Muhammad relating to this question.

so then based on what the Quaran says, we have our answer that God does not approve of homosexuality and that it is sin.

In Canada, almost all provinces now allow marriage between homosexuels. It won't be long before they also allow incestual marriage and marriage with animals. What was considered once an abheration is now considered normal. What was considered once normal is now considered way of the past.

The concept of the family unit is being redefined. The age long tradition of marriage and divine laws as defined by God in various Abrahamic faith's books is changing to be replaced by the human laws. Who know where it will stop now that the border has been crossed.

Nagib
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its unfortunate that mankind have no fear or respect of God anymore and that 2 homesexuals are being allowed to legally marry. if God says its sin, then its wrong. i mean, Saadi has even quoted the Quaran where it says that it is wrong. people seem to take what they want to believe from the Quaran/Bible (whatever they follow) and not everything that it says. if you are a true muslim or a true christian or a true whatever then follow it 100%. if you really believe in the Quaran and that what is written in the Quaran is Gods word then you will believe everything it says.

Salina wrote:its unfortunate that mankind have no fear or respect of God anymore and that 2 homesexuals are being allowed to legally marry. if God says its sin, then its wrong. i mean, Saadi has even quoted the Quaran where it says that it is wrong. people seem to take what they want to believe from the Quaran/Bible (whatever they follow) and not everything that it says. if you are a true muslim or a true christian or a true whatever then follow it 100%. if you really believe in the Quaran and that what is written in the Quaran is Gods word then you will believe everything it says.

So, according to you - ismailis should believe that Homos should be STONED to death as prescribed in the quran?

i guess i would if i believed/followed the Quaran.

Salina wrote:i guess i would if i believed/followed the Quaran.

Dear Salina,

Pls read again what you have written. You seem to be unsure with comments like "i guess... if...."

It appears you are not sure.
Pls make up you mind on how best it is to follow the quran. The decision to STONE the homosexuals or not will depend - as does all matters of Islam -on how the quran is interpreted and, surely there is more than one interpretations.

Could you Pls explain your position.

Dear Guest,

You are forgetting a very important condition thats goes in hand with the stoning punishment. The condition being that four adult male eye witnesses to such a lewd activity must testify, if not then the sexual activity is not proved and hence no stoning is justified.

If you are approaching the matter from a standard setting or opinion establishing angle, then I must admit that , yes in todays world it is becoming increasingly difficult to be uncompromising about such issues. For example, as muslims we are directed to chop off the hand of a thief, but so many people around us nick up small items at malls, stores, here and there and we nowhere come near to even suggesting the prescribed punishment for this appearantly harmless gimmick

But in my opinion, we must take guidance and direction from the famous hadith, the essence of which implies that when you witness a wrong doing , plunge physically to eradicate it. If out numbered (over powered) by wrong doers than resolve to condemn it verbally. If even that is not feasible than atleast solemnly know in your heart that it is wrong and refrain yourself and those you are answerable for (your children, your family members etc) from it

I agree that it is impossible to cut off all interaction with those who take up such eccentric lifestyles but there has to be a fine line between approving of them as individuals and of approving to their behaviour/mannerisms/lifestyle. You may not aggessively communicate your disapproval, (maybe you never communicate it to the person at all, because his/her sexual orientation is really their private matter), but at the same time I think we should refrain from an attitude that may suggest that we 'encourage' such activity. This is really for our own future generations sake.

See the point is if we continue to erase the limits outlined by our religion very soon we technically will transgress out of its circle. We have to hold on to our values for not just our sakes but also for our children. It is really us who decide what values our children will carry. For the others, I take heed from the last Ayat of Surah-e-Alkafaroon:

"La kum deenakum, waliya deen"

Regards,
Saadi

saadi wrote:Dear Guest,

You are forgetting a very important condition thats goes in hand with the stoning punishment. The condition being that four adult male eye witnesses to such a lewd activity must testify, if not then the sexual activity is not proved and hence no stoning is justified.

If you are approaching the matter from a standard setting or opinion establishing angle, then I must admit that , yes in todays world it is becoming increasingly difficult to be uncompromising about such issues. For example, as muslims we are directed to chop off the hand of a thief, but so many people around us nick up small items at malls, stores, here and there and we nowhere come near to even suggesting the prescribed punishment for this appearantly harmless gimmick

But in my opinion, we must take guidance and direction from the famous hadith, the essence of which implies that when you witness a wrong doing , plunge physically to eradicate it. If out numbered (over powered) by wrong doers than resolve to condemn it verbally. If even that is not feasible than atleast solemnly know in your heart that it is wrong and refrain yourself and those you are answerable for (your children, your family members etc) from it

I agree that it is impossible to cut off all interaction with those who take up such eccentric lifestyles but there has to be a fine line between approving of them as individuals and of approving to their behaviour/mannerisms/lifestyle. You may not aggessively communicate your disapproval, (maybe you never communicate it to the person at all, because his/her sexual orientation is really their private matter), but at the same time I think we should refrain from an attitude that may suggest that we 'encourage' such activity. This is really for our own future generations sake.

See the point is if we continue to erase the limits outlined by our religion very soon we technically will transgress out of its circle. We have to hold on to our values for not just our sakes but also for our children. It is really us who decide what values our children will carry. For the others, I take heed from the last Ayat of Surah-e-Alkafaroon:

"La kum deenakum, waliya deen"

Regards,
Saadi

Dear saadi,

You are mixing up a few things here.
FIRST - we are talking about homosexuality and not adultery (zina) where four witnesses (adult, male, muslim and sane) are reqd. to corroborate an act of zina.

Imagine a woman filing charges of Rape (zina) has to provide FOUR witnesses - adult, male, sane & muslim in order to proceed with the charges. If she cannot then the chages are dropped, the man goes scot free, and the suspicion falls upon the women as having lied and she - herself may be charged of adultery - subject to STONING.

You are welcome to verify the above.

SECONDLY,
We are shia immami ismailis; so, why are you referring to hadiths /sunnah that have been compiled by Sunni scholars? It is good to know these hadiths but one should be aware that ismailis do not follow the hadiths enumerated by Sunni scholars. Even the 12'er shias follow hadiths that have been referenced by their 12 Imams.

THIRDLY,
Ismailis follow guidance of the Imam on matters of what constitutes proper quranic & sunnah interpretaton; and, we - as ismailis follow the caveat "There is no Compulsion in Relgion" in deeds and not as mere ornamentation to quote where it serves purpose only.

As such - rehabilitation and moral suasion & examples would serve as a remedial to any 'deviant behaviour' and not EXTREME measures as STONING.
Doesn't the holy quran say:
"Taking the life of even One human being is akin to killing all mankind".

Dear Guest,
how can there be more than one interpretation? if something is black, its black. if its white, its white. theres no grey. why would god write something (a message to his people - the quaran) that has many interpretations. its either sin or not sin. its either evil or good. whats written is written. there can only be one truth. everything else must be a lie. i agree with Saadi.

Salina wrote:Dear Guest,
"how can there be more than one interpretation"?

Because God asks us to REFLECT and not to blindly follow or do taqleed:

[Al Quran 30:21] And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.

And, that is why use of AQL/Intellect is the foundation of Ismaili tariqa; unlike the other madhabs where the rule is - HEAR & OBEY or blindly do the taqleed of their scholars.

Salina wrote:Dear Guest,

"if something is black, its black. if its white, its white. theres no grey. why would god write something (a message to his people - the quaran) that has many interpretations. its either sin or not sin. its either evil or good. whats written is written. there can only be one truth. everything else must be a lie. i agree with Saadi."

Dear salina,
You are suggesting a verse by verse implementation of the quran in its literal context which is not the Ismailian doctrines.

According to you:

1) All homos s/b STONED or killed.
2) All adulterers s/b STONED or killed.
3) All apostates (those who leave religion) must be KILLED.
4) All blasphemers must be KILLED.
5) Those caught drinking the third time must be KILLED.
6) Those caught stealing to feed their hungry family must have their limbs cut-off.
7) If someone kills your brother, you kill his because eye for an eye(qisas) is halal.
8)Slavery or taking of female concubines as booty of war is halal.
9) Slay the idolater whereever ye may find them - this is halal.
10) etc, etc.

Dear salina,
The above - in its literal interpretation NULLIFIES the Quranic values of `adl, ihsan, rahmah and hikmah (justice, benevolence, compassion and wisdom) besides those of equality, human dignity and brotherhood. It is these values which are more fundamental to Islam and ISMAILISM than anything else.

Islam cannot be merely based on some selected aspects of Shari`ah law like dress code for women and other restrictions on them, hudud laws (laws of punishments), blasphemy law, personal law and so on. These laws were based on the interpretation of the Quranic verses in the then prevailing cultural ethos and hence need to be re-thought to accommodate modern problems.

In all islamic countries especially those that have chosen to govern by sharia, the quranic values as mentioned above are totally ABSENT. All one sees are rituals and 7th century laws in abundance.

[Al Quran 29:55]..every day He manifests Himself in yet another (wondrous) way.

Good Luck to you.

Anonymous wrote: [Al Quran 29:55]..every day He manifests Himself in yet another (wondrous) way.

The correct verse number is Al Quran 55:29.
Sorry.

Ya Aly Madad

Heard this recently

During the time when money was being collected to make Aligarh college into Aligarh Muslim University There was a certain amount of money donated by Gay and Lesbian Groups.
The Mullahs were baffled about what to do so they presented this problem in front of Imam SMS and he asked them to apply that money towards the construction of toilets and bathrooms in the university.

Interesting glimpse of the Aql of Aql-E Qul Imam.

By the way the mounting of man on man is referred to in "Sufi path of Love" Mowlana rumi has asked a rhetorical question----->

"How long will u let satan hump you?"

I believe it refers to our infatuation with this illusory world and its misery inducing attachments.

"Duniya ek nathari stri jevi cche aene jaldithi kaadhi mukvi joiyae" Imam SMS

The world is like a promiscuous woman. she should be quickly taken out and let go.

when this woman enters our heart it is like a lesbean relationship. Cos all our hearts are women and Mowla is the only man

Fellas we need to stop thinking in our physical bodies completely to be able to understand some of the secrets of the Quran.

Who am I to say anything anyway. Please excuse any mistakes but do point them out for everyones benefit..

Ya Aly Madad

It is good to see that this topic has created so many interesting discussions. Thank you for giving so many point of view and interesting and various cotes such as from Qur’an. Now in my opinion if our Hazer Imam has not mentioned any thing about it even though it is very much a current issue that means that for Him this issue is not very critical. We should do what ever our conscience tells us to do.

We should not forget that as far as the Ismailis are concerned, the Imam is the ultimate authority with regards to the true and correct interpratations of the quranic verses.

Also, the Quran was compiled during the time of the first 3 Caliphs of Islam, and hence, there is no way to authenticate all that has been quoted in the Quran or for that matter say that whatever has been said in the Quran is totally unbiased. ( This is also true for all other books of relegion including Bible, Geeta, Torah...etc. Over time, a lot of the teachings in these books have been manipulated in some form or the other by certain vested interest during their time and over the course of history, and hence, nothing is totally true or 100 % unbiased)

What we should not forget is that for us Ismailis, the Imam is the Boltu Quran.

Also, Ismailism teaches us treat every individual with equal respect, just as we would like others to treat us. One should not judge others based on their cast, creed, colour, relegion or belief (including sexual orientation) Everyone should be treated with dignity, love and respect.

Finally, one should not forget that God has created every individual unique in their own respect. Therfore, one should accept this fact, and come to terms with the reality.

Regards,

hi ya'll. i think this is a really interesting topic, and im really glad ya'll started it, because i've been curious about it for a while also. anyways, i just wanted to say i do believe in the Quran, and I do think it's highly important, but as an Ismaili, my beliefs come from the Imam. Since the Imam hasn't specifically said anything about gays/lesbians, I don't think there is anything wrong with it or that it's a sin. However, He has said that we should try to follow the norms and way of life of the country we live in, and even though im not promoting or demoting gays/lesbians in any way, i don't think we have any right to say that it's right or not. Besides, I've always been taught that we are nobody to judge other human beings- only God can do that, and in that case, whether you think being a gay/lesbian is a sin or not, you should still treat everyone equally. okay, bye =)

good point nargisk3

on the day of judgement we have to answer for our thoughts words and deeds

just as others have to account for theirs.

let us first clean up our deeds and let other do the same with theirs, or not its up to them what they do.

and as far as judgement goes if we have any understanding of the capacity to forgive that our mowla has we would rest easy for eternity.

The crowning glory of ismailism I think is to clean up your act even when u know for a fact that u will be forgiven no matter what you do.

I honestly believe:
There is no sin I can commit that my Mowla in his Immense mercy will not forgive.

I will go one step further and say There is no sin I can commit, that my Mowla in his Immense mercy has not already forgiven.

Now the beauty of it all is that out of pure love for him, knowing the above to be a fact, I proceed to abstain from all sin.

This is what makes Ismailism I think the crowning glory that towers over all others.

I am describing my own personal beliefs and my own understanding of what Ismailism mean to me personally.

please forgive me if what i have posted above offends anyone elses belief or convictions.

SHAMS

DELETED

In Islam and for that matter in EVERYreligion homosexulaity is condemded. Homosexuality is not a new concept, rather it goes back to the time of Phrophet David(Dawud)A.S. There was a certain town in which there were all homosexuals. Allah told Phrophet David to help them change their ways but when they did not listen, Allah sent his wrath down upon them. Also, homosexulaity does go against the law of nature or the law of God. Although homosexuality is condemded in Islam, it does not however mean that we should go around and pass judgement towards those who are homosexuals. This individuals may have been born like this due to the actions of their previous life and that takes us back to the role of Karma. So, what we can say is that yes homosexuality is condemded in many religions but, to pass judgement towards others is not our look out.

Hi Amin. I've often heard the story of the town of homosexuals during the time of Prophet David. I was just wondering if anyone knows where I can get references about this story so I can validate it?

Dear nargis ya aly madad,

It is mentioned in the Quran with reference to Prophet Lut.

Hi all,<BR><BR>I had gone through all the comments & discussion that was going o&shy;n over this issue & really wanted to contribute something to it. I just came across M.H.I's Sirat Conference Speech where HI has very eloquently expressed the current situation of ethical issues. I would recommend everyone to go through it even if you & must have gone through it before. The answer to our concern over this matter would be found out there. What should be our moral duty in this regard would be answered well too.<BR><BR>Kind Regards<BR>The Alchemist