Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:03 pm Post subject: wuzu
[4.43] O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.
If I'm not mistaken, this quranic verse talks about physical purification before prayers (wuzu/ablution) why is it that wuzu is not enforced upon us ismailis? Is there a farman that talks about this?
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: wuzu
hpatel wrote:
[4.43] O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.
If I'm not mistaken, this quranic verse talks about physical purification before prayers (wuzu/ablution) why is it that wuzu is not enforced upon us ismailis? Is there a farman that talks about this?
Farman of MSMS and MHI,
we should go to Jamat Khana having clean and simple clothes..and a clean heart. It is very important to have a clean heart versus washing our hands and feet..
Ginan of Pir.
Kapda Dhove so Kiya huva..dil dhove so paave..
another thing..i've noticed that you're quoting the quran in a lot of places on this board...
as an ismaili, the Quran holds little or no relevance for me.
The farman of the Imam supercedes the Quran.
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:03 am Post subject: Re: wuzu
ShamsB wrote:
Farman of MSMS and MHI,
we should go to Jamat Khana having clean and simple clothes..and a clean heart. It is very important to have a clean heart versus washing our hands and feet..
Ginan of Pir.
Kapda Dhove so Kiya huva..dil dhove so paave..
another thing..i've noticed that you're quoting the quran in a lot of places on this board...
as an ismaili, the Quran holds little or no relevance for me.
The farman of the Imam supercedes the Quran.
Shams
Brother ShamsB, I hope you have boldfaced your "me" up there. You absolutely cannot tell any Ismaili that Quran holds little or no relevance to them. It is for each individual to decide.
If brother hpatel is looking for clear and direct answer on why Ismailis do not do traditional sunnah based wazu, then you have given him a very good reply.
this is my interpretation of abandoning of formal wudu.
In times of Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) only source of water inside the city was water inside the containers. Water did not flow as it does now a days out of the tabs or shower. So it made lot of sense at that time to pick up water three times to clean different parts of you body.
In 21st century you stand under a shower, use fragranced soaps, and clean up really well. you drive and live in airconditioned envoirnment, as compared to living in deserts of Arabia. I think if i take shower in the morning, use deodorants and colognes, work all day, and come to Jamat khana in evening im still doind much better then somebody living in a desert walking to the mosque.
We can not compare our selves with spritual purity of Rasool Allah and his companions. So please dont take me wrong.
Although we should all still do whatever we can to make sure we clean up physically b4 coming to JK. Or b4 Praying at home to that matter.
another thing..i've noticed that you're quoting the quran in a lot of places on this board...
as an ismaili, the Quran holds little or no relevance for me.
The farman of the Imam supercedes the Quran.
i think your statement needs correction.
The farman of Imam comes first, and it interpretates the Quran for us. Whether we understand the meaning of Farmans or not we follow it any way. Quran holds relevance to you or not it has nothing to do with your being Ismaili.
Ismailis that i know follow Quran through Imams guidance.
Anybody who quotes Quran should only be appreciated as most of us Khojas are too lazy to read it. Atleast somebody is taking the initiative.
I think its our lack of knowledge about the Quran sometimes that scares us. We hide our head in sand by saying Quran is irrelivent.
Please correct me if im wrong.
I think ShamsB meant to say that as an Ismaili, for him there is more importance of Farmans and Ginans.
Now this topic is already discussed in the same section "customs and traditions" under same topic but different spelling "Wazzu" There is answer for this question there too you may also refer to that.
another thing..i've noticed that you're quoting the quran in a lot of places on this board...
as an ismaili, the Quran holds little or no relevance for me.
The farman of the Imam supercedes the Quran.
i think your statement needs correction.
The farman of Imam comes first, and it interpretates the Quran for us. Whether we understand the meaning of Farmans or not we follow it any way. Quran holds relevance to you or not it has nothing to do with your being Ismaili.
Ismailis that i know follow Quran through Imams guidance.
Anybody who quotes Quran should only be appreciated as most of us Khojas are too lazy to read it. Atleast somebody is taking the initiative.
I think its our lack of knowledge about the Quran sometimes that scares us. We hide our head in sand by saying Quran is irrelivent.
Please correct me if im wrong.
well then I hide my head in the sand.
The quran hold little or no relevance for me as i have the living and present Imam
I have given my tan, man and dhan to the Imam.
we should follow the farmans of the Imam because that is what i have given baiyat to do.
Look, the words of God came first, regardless of age and time, they were revealed to all the Prophets. Quran as a compiled book came second, it was even compiled on the direction of someone who was not selected by the God (although he claimed that he was khalifatul Allah). So in a sense, you are right. But you don't have to show rigidness in your views towards your own brothers in faith. Not everyone knows and understands things the way you do, so do not look at everyone with the same eye. Heck even the people in Muhammad's time didn't look at things the way they should have been but we have to take our history along regardless. If you wish others see the "right way" then make them, before you ignore them by hiding your head in the sand. Note that you're talking about shariati matters here so I would keep things in context if possible.
I think folks (here) have to understand a few things (even though there believes or foundations are/may not be of Islam) nevertheless if you are Ismaili than you must be Muslim first.
An Ismaili is a Muslim first.
Now in a nutshell: in the Shia Tradition/Interpretation of Islam, The Nobel Quran confers the authority of The Imam as the holder of the authority. If you give no value to Quran, than you have no basis to claim what The Imam or His authority is.
I think the views us as of ShamsB and others alike incubate the ideas or questions that are littered on this site, i.e. Ismailis not considered Muslims, Hinduism in Ismaili, Ismaili bashing, and on and on.
Now I have said my peace, this is what I can share about my thoughts and practices to hpatel’s post. Well, I shower everyday and I shower the second time right before I head out to JK (and some occasions even afterwards too but that is an another thread it self!).
In some far in deselect places in the desserts of Middle East where the water is in short or no supply there is a dedicated stone instead of water that is used for Wadu(if you are Arabic)/Wazzu(Persian, Paki and others).
There is a protocol for the Wadu/Wazzu, the way and steps of performing it, that I don’t think most people in JKs or let alone on this site, with out googling can tell you how.
I think folks (here) have to understand a few things (even though there believes or foundations are/may not be of Islam) nevertheless if you are Ismaili than you must be Muslim first.
An Ismaili is a Muslim first.
Now in a nutshell: in the Shia Tradition/Interpretation of Islam, The Nobel Quran confers the authority of The Imam as the holder of the authority. If you give no value to Quran, than you have no basis to claim what The Imam or His authority is.
I think the views us as of ShamsB and others alike incubate the ideas or questions that are littered on this site, i.e. Ismailis not considered Muslims, Hinduism in Ismaili, Ismaili bashing, and on and on.
Now I have said my peace, this is what I can share about my thoughts and practices to hpatel’s post. Well, I shower everyday and I shower the second time right before I head out to JK (and some occasions even afterwards too but that is an another thread it self!).
In some far in deselect places in the desserts of Middle East where the water is in short or no supply there is a dedicated stone instead of water that is used for Wadu(if you are Arabic)/Wazzu(Persian, Paki and others).
There is a protocol for the Wadu/Wazzu, the way and steps of performing it, that I don’t think most people in JKs or let alone on this site, with out googling can tell you how.
In MY opinion..ismailies are the only muslims..as they are the only ones that have actually followed the guidance of the prophet. i.e. followed the IMAM.
The Imam's authority for me doesn't come from the Qu'ran..neither is he dependant on the Quran.
..
Remember the IMAM was ALWAYS THERE..from the DAY OF CREATION and will be THERE to the DAY OF JUDGEMENT, the Qu'ran came after the Imam.
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: wuzu
hpatel wrote:
[4.43] O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.
If I'm not mistaken, this quranic verse talks about physical purification before prayers (wuzu/ablution) why is it that wuzu is not enforced upon us ismailis? Is there a farman that talks about this?
btw..
please show me where wazu is mentioned..or that we should wash our hands and feet outside Jamat Khana..
all it refers to is taking a bath..or washing one's self...before prayer..or if one can't find water..using the earth. Wazu isn't mentioned here.
I just reread it clearly!
So Wazu isn't enforced upon us..however we have been told to go to Jamat Khana clean and with clean and simple clothes.
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: wuzu
ShamsB wrote:
hpatel wrote:
[4.43] O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.
If I'm not mistaken, this quranic verse talks about physical purification before prayers (wuzu/ablution) why is it that wuzu is not enforced upon us ismailis? Is there a farman that talks about this?
btw..
please show me where wazu is mentioned..or that we should wash our hands and feet outside Jamat Khana..
all it refers to is taking a bath..or washing one's self...before prayer..or if one can't find water..using the earth. Wazu isn't mentioned here.
I just reread it clearly!
So Wazu isn't enforced upon us..however we have been told to go to Jamat Khana clean and with clean and simple clothes.
Shams
The quran often times does not directly refer to things. This was just my interpretation of this verse. The part which pertains to wazu was:"until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands;" Also i never said that wazu is or should be enforced upon us I simply asked why it is not necessary for us ismailis.
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: wuzu
hpatel wrote:
ShamsB wrote:
hpatel wrote:
[4.43] O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.
If I'm not mistaken, this quranic verse talks about physical purification before prayers (wuzu/ablution) why is it that wuzu is not enforced upon us ismailis? Is there a farman that talks about this?
btw..
please show me where wazu is mentioned..or that we should wash our hands and feet outside Jamat Khana..
all it refers to is taking a bath..or washing one's self...before prayer..or if one can't find water..using the earth. Wazu isn't mentioned here.
I just reread it clearly!
So Wazu isn't enforced upon us..however we have been told to go to Jamat Khana clean and with clean and simple clothes.
Shams
The quran often times does not directly refer to things. This was just my interpretation of this verse. The part which pertains to wazu was:"until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands;" Also i never said that wazu is or should be enforced upon us I simply asked why it is not necessary for us ismailis.
so..Wuzu isn't necessary for us..(the act of washing OUTSIDE the Jamat Khana) however...we have farmans of MHI and MSMS that instruct us to come to jamat khana in a clean condition and in simple and clean clothes.
We should take a bath/shower before going to Jamat Khana and dress in clean and simple clothes to show respect for not only the status of Jamat Khana and to follow the Farman..but also for our fellow Ismaili brothers and sisters.
In MY opinion..ismailies are the only muslims..as they are the only ones that have actually followed the guidance of the prophet. i.e. followed the IMAM.
The Imam's authority for me doesn't come from the Qu'ran..neither is he dependant on the Quran.
..
Remember the IMAM was ALWAYS THERE..from the DAY OF CREATION and will be THERE to the DAY OF JUDGEMENT, the Qu'ran came after the Imam.
Let’s make this elementary and see where it leads us and I think it is a very important discussion that warrants some time to be spent on.
What tells you that the Imam(s) have the authority? Or What constitutes the legitimacy of the Imam(s)?
What tells you that the Imam(s) have the authority? Or What constitutes the legitimacy of the Imam(s)?
It is totally out of context/thread but since you're at it, let me ask you this:
Who gave permissions to Abu Bakr to take upon himself the role of a leader of the Ummah while Ali was washing Prophets body for burial?
Who gave permissions to Abu Bakr to call in a meeting of few like minded individuals (minus Ali) to elect himself the leader?
Who then gave permissions to Abu Bakr to select Umar as a next leader of the Ummah? This without consulting Ali once again or even calling in a vote of his own people.
Any idea why Hasan and Hussein were protecting Uthman when the angry mob of another clan came to kill Uthman for his incompetencies?
Any idea why Ali chose to become the fourth caliph but decided not to take the title as choosen by Uthman? (instead he reversed it to what Umar had).
Shian-e Ali always knew the authority of the Imam, they always knew the legitimacy of the Imam. Just look around the politics of the current day and age then track yourself backwards and you'll get the idea of why they never accepted Ali as the rightful hereditary Imam from Ahl-e bait and Hashami clan.
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