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Allah and the Nur of Allah
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arshad1988



Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, Kmaherali, that was a great way of putting it! So do you mean, when you say that when one recognizes the essence, is that through seeing the noor by each individual? How about when one knows what is there but has not actually seen it? For example, if one does not recognize or has not seen the noor, but by learning about Hazar Imam and knowing that He is seen like that, is it bad for that person to worship the body? Do you know what I mean? Like I'm sure there are many Ismailis there that look at Mowla and have not seen the noor, does that mean it is bad to attach His body to His Spirit?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arshad1988 wrote:

So do you mean, when you say that when one recognizes the essence, is that through seeing the noor by each individual? How about when one knows what is there but has not actually seen it? For example, if one does not recognize or has not seen the noor, but by learning about Hazar Imam and knowing that He is seen like that, is it bad for that person to worship the body?

So long as it is construed as a symbol of the Essence - the object of worship, and helps you remember and obey Him it is not bad. After all the avatars are the medium between humanity and God.

Just think of the experience of Al- Muayyad in the physical presence of Imam. Whereas he was awe-struck in the physical presence of the Imam, the others around him felt nothing because they did not have the recognition of the Imam.
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arshad1988



Joined: 12 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So since we think of the Shah as the mazhar of the essence, and the Pir as the mazhar of the Murshid or guide, when we say Jamatkhane is the house of Mowla Bapa, are we referring to the house of the Pir? As when others say a mosque is the house of God, they are referring to the object of devotion, the Shah, but we are referring to our guide, the Pir? As different sects or religions have their own murshid or guides?
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arshad1988 wrote:
So since we think of the Shah as the mazhar of the essence, and the Pir as the mazhar of the Murshid or guide, when we say Jamatkhane is the house of Mowla Bapa, are we referring to the house of the Pir? As when others say a mosque is the house of God, they are referring to the object of devotion, the Shah, but we are referring to our guide, the Pir? As different sects or religions have their own murshid or guides?


Jamatkhana is the House of the Shah - the Pir him/herself goes into Jamat Khana to pray - Imam Aga Ali Shah whilst Pir was known to come to Jamat Khana and recite Dua with the Jamats as was Pir Shihahbuddin Shah.

The majority of our allegiances are given to the Mursheed - who is the Pir - we are Murids of the Pir - who has promised in exchange for our allegiance to lead us to the Imam.

Shams
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arshad1988 wrote:
So since we think of the Shah as the mazhar of the essence, and the Pir as the mazhar of the Murshid or guide, when we say Jamatkhane is the house of Mowla Bapa, are we referring to the house of the Pir? As when others say a mosque is the house of God, they are referring to the object of devotion, the Shah, but we are referring to our guide, the Pir? As different sects or religions have their own murshid or guides?


In an Anant Akhado (Ashaji) verse the Pir says:

Aashaajee Gur-Gat-Gangaa maanhe ame-j betthaa
partak Gur-Nar avtaar jee
kamaavo je tamaaree rojee
te maanhe-thee dasond aalo..............Haree anant..348

Oh Lord We are entirely present in the Gur-Gat-Gangaa
(Jamatkhana)
and we are the everpresent Manifestation of the Lord in
the form of Gur-Nar(Shah-Pir)
earn your livelihood (daily bread)
and from it submit the tithe
Haree You are eternal...

The physical aspect of the JamatKhana comprises of the Gur either personally being present as alluded by Shamsh or in the form of his guidance - Ginans and Farmans, Gat which is the congregation and the Gangaa (River Ganges) - symbolic of the presence of purifying rituals.

The GurNar i.e, the Imam is always present there spiritually.
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arshad1988



Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:


In an Anant Akhado (Ashaji) verse the Pir says:

Aashaajee Gur-Gat-Gangaa maanhe ame-j betthaa
partak Gur-Nar avtaar jee
kamaavo je tamaaree rojee
te maanhe-thee dasond aalo..............Haree anant..348

Oh Lord We are entirely present in the Gur-Gat-Gangaa
(Jamatkhana)
and we are the everpresent Manifestation of the Lord in
the form of Gur-Nar(Shah-Pir)
earn your livelihood (daily bread)
and from it submit the tithe
Haree You are eternal...

The physical aspect of the JamatKhana comprises of the Gur either personally being present as alluded by Shamsh or in the form of his guidance - Ginans and Farmans, Gat which is the congregation and the Gangaa (River Ganges) - symbolic of the presence of purifying rituals.

The GurNar i.e, the Imam is always present there spiritually.



In the verse referred to above, Pir says
"Oh Lord We are entirely present in the Gur-Gat-Gangaa
(Jamatkhana)
and we are the everpresent Manifestation of the Lord in
the form of Gur-Nar(Shah-Pir)..."

who is Pir referring to when he says 'we are the...' ? Is it Himself? Or Himself and Imam of the time? Pir is saying "O Lord" and then says "...we are the everpresent Manifestation fo the Lord" - is this alluding to the essence and mazhar of the essence? And how are these two different?

So when we say that Mowla is everpresent in Jamatkhane, we mean that since we have recognized Him he is there, as really Mowla is everywhere right?
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arshad1988



Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wanted to clarify, when Pir says "Gur-Gat-Gangaa", as Kmaharali, you said one of the physical aspect of Jamatkhane refers to Gur being there presently. Gur-Nar refers to Shah-Pir ie Imam, so what does Gur alone signify? Pir? Shah? or both again?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20458

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arshad1988 wrote:

who is Pir referring to when he says 'we are the...' ? Is it Himself? Or Himself and Imam of the time? Pir is saying "O Lord" and then says "...we are the everpresent Manifestation fo the Lord" - is this alluding to the essence and mazhar of the essence? And how are these two different?

So when we say that Mowla is everpresent in Jamatkhane, we mean that since we have recognized Him he is there, as really Mowla is everywhere right?


Ginans are poetic in their expression, the statement Ashajee can also mean 'O respectable' and the subject and object can vary. In this particular verse the Pir is saying on behalf of the Imam, just like the Bhagavad Gita composed by Vidur Vyaas (considerd as the Pir in our tradition) speaks on behalf of Lord Krishna. Yes the Imam as the Mazhar of the Essence. Yes but even more so in JamatKhana.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arshad1988 wrote:
Just wanted to clarify, when Pir says "Gur-Gat-Gangaa", as Kmaharali, you said one of the physical aspect of Jamatkhane refers to Gur being there presently. Gur-Nar refers to Shah-Pir ie Imam, so what does Gur alone signify? Pir? Shah? or both again?

GurNar can also be the Gur but not viceversa. At times the GurNar appoints someone else from the Ahl al-Bayt to function as the Gur.

In this context the Gur is the Murshid(Guide) and if you consider the present Imam, it is the Intercessor/Guide aspect and NOT the Essence - the object of devotion.
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arshad1988



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have heard this quote:

"If it were not for thee, We would not have created the universe. But if it were not for Ali, We would have not created Thee"

Has anyone else heard this quote? I think it's an Ayatul Qudsi. I think this resembles what you were telling me kmaharali, with some of what kandani said, in that from the essence came the universal intellect, and from that came creation. Am I correct? So from Nabhi Muhammad(saws), emanated creation, or the Universal Soul? Or that the essence created the universe. Which one is it, ie did creation stem from the essence of the universal intellect?

Also, this quote is implying there is someone else besides Mowla Ali(as) and Prophet Muhammad(saws). Or is this just the style of Arabic?

So if I'm correct, all of this universe, along with all other creation is part of the univeral soul. And, I guess, some way it is connected to the essence through the universal intellect. We just have to do some soul-searching. So in a way, is this what we mean that Allah(swt) is ahad, or one. Because, in reality, there is nothing but the essence?
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arshad1988



Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, just wondering, the Universal Soul does not have Nur, but the Essence and the Universal Intellect have Nur, correct?
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arshad1988



Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have heard somewhere, in a waez I think, not 100% sure though, that Allah and Nur of Allah are not the same. The person compared Allah to the sun, and Nur of Allah to the sunlight. The sunlight comes from the sun, or is a manifestation of epiphany of the sun, just like how we say Imam is manifestation or epiphany of Allah. The Essence is the source. Is this correct?

It's funny, I just read the quote at the main page before I posted this:

God said: "I could not be contained in the heavens and the earth, but could be contained in the heart of a true believer. [Soofi/SA5]
-- Prophet Mohamed

So I guess I answered my own question. When a momin annihalates his soul into the Divine, he becomes one with the Divine, or Essence. Hence, the Universal Soul does not contain Nur, but can become the Nur or Source, I guess. Right? I just remembered that posting you made kmaharali, an article which had something to the effect of "Repeating the name of the Beloved, I became the Beloved" .

Ya Ali Madad
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arshad1988 wrote:
I have heard somewhere, in a waez I think, not 100% sure though, that Allah and Nur of Allah are not the same. The person compared Allah to the sun, and Nur of Allah to the sunlight. The sunlight comes from the sun, or is a manifestation of epiphany of the sun, just like how we say Imam is manifestation or epiphany of Allah. The Essence is the source. Is this correct?

It's funny, I just read the quote at the main page before I posted this:

God said: "I could not be contained in the heavens and the earth, but could be contained in the heart of a true believer. [Soofi/SA5]
-- Prophet Mohamed

So I guess I answered my own question. When a momin annihalates his soul into the Divine, he becomes one with the Divine, or Essence. Hence, the Universal Soul does not contain Nur, but can become the Nur or Source, I guess. Right? I just remembered that posting you made kmaharali, an article which had something to the effect of "Repeating the name of the Beloved, I became the Beloved" .

Ya Ali Madad


The article is from Mystical Dimensions of Islam i believe - anne marie schimmel...
To me personally - the nur of allah - the essence is what i call allah and that is what i call the noor of ali - i.e the noor of Imamah...

Pir in Ginan says- Allah Ehi Imam..

Will respond to the other post in a few days or so...

Shams
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arshad1988 wrote:
I have heard this quote:

"If it were not for thee, We would not have created the universe. But if it were not for Ali, We would have not created Thee"


I would interpret the 'thee' above to mean Man the crown of creation. Creation is meant for us, we are not meant for creation. The purpose of creation is to provide us with the conditions to elevate ourselves and realize our potential to become the Essence - Ali. Hence Ali becomes the cause of our existence.

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah says in The Memoirs:

"It is said that we live, move and have our being in God. We find this concept expressed often in the Koran, not in those words of course, but just as beautifully and more tersely. But when we realize the meaning of this saying, we are already preparing ourselves for the gift of the power of direct experience.
arshad1988 wrote:

Has anyone else heard this quote? I think it's an Ayatul Qudsi. I think this resembles what you were telling me kmaharali, with some of what kandani said, in that from the essence came the universal intellect, and from that came creation. Am I correct? So from Nabhi Muhammad(saws), emanated creation, or the Universal Soul? Or that the essence created the universe. Which one is it, ie did creation stem from the essence of the universal intellect? "


In the Saloko Naano verse below Pir Sadardeen states:

satgur kahere nure meendar samaareeyaa
ane nure rachyo aasmaan
te nur maanhethee nur pragatteeyaa
tenu satgur chhe naam re.........................10


The True Guide says: The world originated from the light, and the heavens were created from the light. From the (primordial) light, light manifested. It's name is the True Guide(Pir).

The above verse indicates that the Light created the universe and is manifested in the True Guide - the Pir (Nabi Muhammad).

In The Memoirs, MSMS says:

"There is a fundamental difference between the Jewish idea of creation and that of Islam. The creation according to Islam is not a unique act in a given time but a perpetual and constant event; and God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought. Outside His will, outside His thought, all is nothing, even the things which seem to us absolutely self-evident such as space and time. Allah alone wishes: the Universe exists; and all manifestations are as a witness of the Divine will."

His thought and will above implies that the Universal Intellect creates and sustains the Universe.

Just as the individual body is the expression of the individual soul, the Universe is the expression of the Universal Soul.

In The Memoirs, MSMS compares the Essence(Absolute) with the Universe in the excerpt below.

"Thus Islam's basic principle can only be defined as mono-realism and not as monotheism. Consider, for example, the opening declaration of every Islamic prayer: "Allah-o-Akbar". What does that mean? There can be no doubt that the second word of the declaration likens the character of Allah to a matrix which contains all and gives existence to the infinite, to space, to time, to the Universe, to all active and passive forces imaginable, to life and to the soul. Imam Hassan has explained the Islamic doctrine of God and the Universe by analogy with the sun and its reflection in the pool of a fountain; there is certainly a reflection or image of the sun, but with what poverty and with what little reality; how small and pale is the likeness between this impalpable image and the immense, blazing, white-hot glory of the celestial sphere itself. Allah is the sun; and the Universe, as we know it in all its magnitude, and time, with its power, are nothing more than the reflection of the Absolute in the mirror of the fountain."
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arshad1988 wrote:
Also, just wondering, the Universal Soul does not have Nur, but the Essence and the Universal Intellect have Nur, correct?

The 'soul' and 'Nur' are not objects out there, rather they are terms we use to denote our essential Divine nature and our relationship to the Source - Essence.

The Universal Soul is created, informed and sustained by the Nur and hence in this respect is a reflection of it.

There is a Quranic Ayat: "Allahu Nuru Samawati wal Ardh" - "Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth".
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arshad1988



Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:

I won't speak for others but according to my understanding the Shah is the Mazhar of the Essence - the highest metaphysical state from which every other existence comes fortht. The Pir is the Mazhar of the Universal Intellect and the creation is the Universal Soul.

Since the Essence encompasses everything, the Shah is also the Pir - the bearer of the Universal Intellect. However he may choose the delegate the function of the Pir to another member of Ahl al-Bayt. This has happened in our history.



Kmaherali, I know this is your interpretation of the meanings of the Shah/Essence, and the Pir/Universal Intellect. However, in the previous thread I posted from the IIS website, under teachings of Nasir Khusraw, it says:

"To our author, the world of religion is composed of two parts, one spiritual and one physical. The spiritual world, which is beyond time and space, consists of the Universal Intellect and the Universal Soul"

Is this in sync with your views as well, as the article does not specify what these two stand for?



Also, to clarify, everything in this universe, me, you, every atom in this universe and the next, is part of the Universal Soul?


We can kind of think of this as a fraction or piece of pie,

The Essence, contains the whole piece, the Universal Intellect is some part of the whole, and within that part of the Universal Intellect contains the Universal Soul. Ultimately, if we know ourselves, we can find God, and become the whole, as I've heard that each of us contains the Nur, it's just that we have to find it.

Ya Ali Madad
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20458

PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arshad1988 wrote:


"To our author, the world of religion is composed of two parts, one spiritual and one physical. The spiritual world, which is beyond time and space, consists of the Universal Intellect and the Universal Soul"

Is this in sync with your views as well, as the article does not specify what these two stand for?


It is not in sync with my views. The metaphysics is dependant upon the current philosophical and scientific outlook. At present the current scientific outlook depicts matter and spirit as one. MHI in one of his speeches says" Islam does not deal in dichotomies but all encompassing unity. Matter and spirit are one....
arshad1988 wrote:

Also, to clarify, everything in this universe, me, you, every atom in this universe and the next, is part of the Universal Soul?

Yes, Mowlana Rumi in his Mathnavi states:

"He (the Pir) was made acquainted with the (material) form of every existent being, before this Universal Soul became fettered (by materiality)."(Mathnavi 2:170)

Which echoes MHI's Farman: "The soul is created and given a physical form."
arshad1988 wrote:

We can kind of think of this as a fraction or piece of pie,

The Essence, contains the whole piece, the Universal Intellect is some part of the whole, and within that part of the Universal Intellect contains the Universal Soul. Ultimately, if we know ourselves, we can find God, and become the whole, as I've heard that each of us contains the Nur, it's just that we have to find it.

Ya Ali Madad

I woul say a facet of the whole rather than part, because as you say we as humans through the correct application of our intellects can grow into the whole, i.e. the microcosm can become the macrocosm.


In addition I would like to mention below some interesting verses on the nature of Piratan from the Mathnavi of Mowlana Rumi.

To you it is a wall, to them it is a door; to you a stone, to (those) venerated ones a pearl.

What you see plainly in the mirror—the Pir sees more than that in the brick.
The Pirs are they whose spirits, before this world existed, were in the Sea of (Divine) bounty.

Before (the creation of) this body they passed (many) lifetimes; before the sowing they took up (harvested) the wheat. 170 They have received the spirit before (the creation of) the form; they have bored the pearls before (the creation of) the sea.


(Whilst) consultation was going on as to bringing mankind into existence, their spirits were in the Sea of (Divine) Omnipotence up to the throat.

When the angels were opposing that (creation of man), they (the Pirs) were secretly clapping their hands (in derision) at the angels.

He (the Pir) was made acquainted with the (material) form of every existent being, before this Universal Soul became fettered (by materiality)
.(Mathnavi 2:166 onwards)

Below is an excerpt from the late alwaez Shamshuddin Bandali Hajii's book: Nooe en Ala Noor about a Qasida on the continuity of Imamat by Dai Fidai Khurasani and was published and edited by the Russian scholar Semenov.

A "QASIDA"
Poet KHAKI ALEYMA RAHEMA has contributed a highly instructive "QASIDA" on the DIVINE "NOORANI" Aspect of HAZARAT MOWLA MURTAZA ALI. The Qasida was originally composed by the poet in Persian and later translated into English and Gujerati.

It was first printed in 1929 in the Quarterly magazine 'IRAN' published in Russia.

Poet Rahema has explained in his Qasida a very deep philosophy of "JAMA," of "THE MAZAHARE ALLAH," and of THE DIVINE "NOOR" that has Manifested in Different Physical GARBS during the different Ages as the "EVERLIVING GUIDE."

THE ALI
MOWLA MURTAZA ALI (A.S.)

ALI was in Existence when this world did not exist;
HE brought into being the 'ARSH' (HEAVENS) and the 'FARSH' (EARTH) by HIS Power.

ALI is the 'One,' Eternal and Omnipresent; but HIS Substance is Hidden from those who are spiritually blind or short sighted.

ALI is the Mystery of what is Hidden in Expression if this could be Revealed; HE is Manifest in the Hidden and in the Open.

ALI is the One Whom we should know as the Mighty and the Creator of Might; He has no equal, and is Unique in HIS Nature.

ALI Forgives and Cancels human sins; He Forgives the mistakes of the old and of the young.

ALI was the Master of Jab'riil and of Salman; HE as the Mighty Prince has Overpowered sixty demons.

ALI is Mentioned in Surat Fatiha; HE is the Meaning of the letters, Alif, Lam, and Mim.

ALI has Sent down the Torah and the New Testament; the Glory of ALI is Revealed even in the Suhuf of Abraham. Go and read in the Koran the Ayat about

the "Posterity" (Dhurriyye) - inquire about the meaning of the expression, "One after Another."

I will tell the Names of the Descendants of ALI, One after Another, If thou will listen to me.

ALI was SETH in the time of ADAM, though HE was Hidden from the eyes of the unworthy.

ALI came in the Dress of SEM, unbelievers cannot understand the Mystery of this

matter.

ALI was MELCHISEDECH (MALEKUSALAAM); HE on Whose Existence the being of the World

depends.

ALI was in the Dress of MALKAN; HE Who Gives the things of the world their souls.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA-I-ISLAM; and there is no one equal to HIM.

ALI HIMSELF was the Holy AARON Who Showed the White Hand (Yed-i-bayza) to Moses.

ALI was SIMON PETER; know this, HE from Whose Luminous Countenance the Light came into existence

ALI was in the Dress of ADNAN; HE Who Became Manifest for us, undoubtedly.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA MA'AADS'; from HIS Light our eyes receive the power of seeing.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA NIZAR; HE Who Guards us carefully.

ALI was in the Dress of MUIZZ; HE Whose Name thou repeatest everywhere with reverence.

ALI was in Dress of MOWLA ILYAS; HE in Whose Name both worlds came into existence.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA MUDRIK; HE, by Whose Order all things exist.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA MALIK by Whom is Established the kingdom of the world.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA KHUZAYMA; I really know HIM as the Greatest One..

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA KENANA; HE Who from the letters KAF and NUN has created

the world — 'KUN FAY KUN' means 'BE' and it Became.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA NAZAR; He, in Whose Name the necessity for the world appeared.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA MALIK; HE Who will be Master of the Day of Resurrection.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA FAHR; HE, by Whose Union the thirsty receive as much as a sea.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA LUWA; HE Whose Blessings appear in all chings.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA GHALIB; HE, Who Enlightens the hearts of HIS followers.

All was in the Dress of MOWLA MURRA; HE, Whose Virtues are with us.

ALI was in the Dress of KA'B; HE, in Whose Name the KA'BA was built.

ALI was in the Name of MOWLA KILAB; HE Who Created flowers, delicate and beautiful.

ALI was in the Dress of ABDUL-MANAF: HE, by Whom mankind was created.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA HASHIM; HE Who Guides the faithful to the fulfilment of their prayers.

ALI was in the Dress of ABDUL-MUTTALIB; HE Who now Grants us our prayers.

ALI was HIMSELF ABU-TALIB; Know it, Know it for certain as there is no doubt about this.

ALI was seen as ALI HIMSELF by the world; Solver of our difficulties in this world.

ALT was in the Dress of MOWLA HUSSEIN; HE Who Created the beauty of the world.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA ZAYN-L-A3IDLN; HE Who Accepts the devotion of the worthy.

ALI was in the Dress of Mowla 3AQIR; HE by Whom the stages of Spiritual Knowledge are shorter and easier for the seeker.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA JAFFER; let the faithful possess true sincerity.

ALI was in the Dress of ISMAIL; HE by Whom the difference between the truth and untruth has become manifest.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA MUHAMMED; HE from Whom the rays of the true light began to shine.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA WAFI AHMED; true to the meaning of HIS Name, HE Who is the Solution of all our difficulties.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA TAQUI; HE Whose Glory is sung by all things.

ALI was One Whose Name was RAZI ABDULLAH; HE Whose looking upon an ordinary stone makes it a jewel.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA MAHEDI MUHAMMED; HE in Whose Name the dead were made alive.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA MUHAMMAD QAIM; keep HIS Name permanently in the heart.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA MANSUR; HE Who Gives helo to the righteous.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA MUIZZ; HE Who has Given dignity to the devoted.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA AZIZ; HE Whose Like the world did not know.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA HAKIM; and from that time Wisdom became manifest.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA ZAHIR; this statement we are making in complete Certainty.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA MUSTANSIR BILLAH; HE Who Gives help to the poor and mendicant.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA NIZAR; do not doubt in this if thou are farsighted.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA HADI; He Who Leads all the faithful.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA MUHTADI also; HE Who Revealed to us the Hidden Mystery.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA QAHIR; Let HIS Anger overcome the wicked.

By Name HASAN'ALA ZIKRIHIS-SALAM, HE will Give us today and tomorrow all that we pray for.

ALI was in the Dress of ZIYAU'DIN (ala) MUHAMED; HE by Whose Will the light of the sun and moon shines.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA JALALUDDIN HASSAN; HE Whose is HIS endless Glory.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA ALAU'D-DIN MUHAMMED; HE Who Made to descend the Suras YASIN and TAHA.

ALI was in the Dress of Mowla RUKNU'D-DIN HASSAN KHURSHAH; HE, by Whose Mercy we are reasonable creatures.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA SHAMSIDDEEN MUHAMMED; by HIS Grace and Mercy Shams-Tabriz and Jalaluddin Rumi enlightened the world with high Spiritual Knowledge.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA QASIM SHAH; HE by Whose Blessings the work of DA'WA continued in various parts of the world.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA SHAH ISLAM SHAH; HE by Whose Order the world is enlighcened with the TRUTH.

ALI was in the Dress of MCWLA MUHAMMAD BIN ISLAM SHAH; from HIS Name ILM enlightens us.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA AL-MUSTANSIRI-BILLAH; by Whose Grace, spiritual and material rewards are gifted to faithfuls.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA SHAH ABDIS-SALAAM; by HIS Mercy DA'WA of the FAITH became progressive and continued.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA SHAH GHAREEB MESRZA; HE Who Kindles Light of IMAN in the heart of the Momins.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA SHAH ABUZAR ALI; HE by Whose Blessings the faithfuls are imparted with boundless Prosperity.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA SHAH MURAD MEERZA; HE by Whose Grace works of DA'WA expanded to a high extent.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA ZULFIQAR ALI; HE Who is the Master of the Universes.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA SHAH NOORIDDEEN ALI; HE Who is the LIGHT of both Worlds.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA SHAH KHALILIL-LAHIALI; HE Who is the Master of Momins and the Saviour of the Faith

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA SHAH NIZAR; HE Who Protects the Faith of HIS faithfuls.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA SAYYID ALI; HE Who is the All-Knowing, the One and Single.

ALI was in the Dress of HASSANALI SHAH; HE Who is the IMAM of all, today and tomorrow.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA SHAH KASIMALI; HE Who is the Distributor of Paradise and of the Hell on the Resurrection Day.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA ABU'L HASSANALI SHAH; Know it, HE Whose Light Possesses the whole world.

ALI was in the Dress of SHAH KHALILU'L-LAH; HE by Whose Order both worlds came into existence.

ALI was in the Dress of MOWLA SHAH HASAN ALI; HE by Whose Wisdom all things exist.

ALI SHAH was really ALI HIMSELF; from HIS Name our eyes became enlightened.

ALI is SULTAN MUHAMMAD SHAH; HE by Whose Order both worlds exist. HIS Wisdom absorbs both worlds; HIS Substance is eternal, of the Only King.

(Please note: the Oasida of poet Khaki Khorashani Rahema ends here with the Holy Name and Dress of ALI up to the time of MOWLANA SULTAN MUHAMMED SHAH. The Author has added what follows.)

MOWLA SULTAN MUHAMMED SHAH (THE ALI) Changed HIS Dress. HE Manifested in the Dress of MOWLA SHAH KARIM AL-HUSSEINY HAZER IMAM. "NOOR-EN-ALLAH NOOR," "LIGHT UPON LIGHT," The DIVINE LIGHT - ALI-MURTA2A is Mowla SHAH KARIM AL-HUSSEINY HAZER DIAM; HE by Whose Order both Worlds exist.

SHAH KARIM AL-HUSSEINY HAZER IMAM is the Centre of All Creation.
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zubin_chagani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:30 am    Post subject: interesting!! Reply with quote

well its very interesting to know that so many people have different opinion on allah n nur of allah

for me

allah n nur of allah is one and the same bcoz allah himself mentioned in quran that " he is nur " and he is zahir/batin
and in the same verse of surah nur he says light upon light which is outstanding example of allahs mercy i.e imam e zaman

and again its the same verse where allah says "he guides to his light whoever he wants to "

see its very easy to read quran,but its very hard to understand the holy quran.

so its like light[prophet's/imams] after light [ prophet's/imams ]
quran also say that there wont b any prophets after prophet mohd[pbuh] but he also said in the same quran that "even tough people try to shun this light by their mouth allah has different plans, he wants to complete his light "


now it is very obvious to say that v can see nur in hazar imam but i dont think that s the case

to see the nur in imam or even in single tiniest living thing u shud have a strong iman

there are numerous ginans to help my statement bcoz even our pirs said that widout iman there is no worship in the same way i think if anybody wanna see the nur of allah in this world or in imam in particular he shud reach to that destination [marifat]


i try my best to stay on right path and sometimes i even get a vision/dream of h.imam but thats jus the beginning i know i hve a long distance to travel not by walking but by doing bandagi which i always forget


finally im realli very proud to b a part of this forum and gain knowledge abt our religion

i have seen kandani's post, roxi's , meherali's[reminds me of akbarali meherallly icon_lol.gif ] , unnalhaq's and even admins and all my spritual bro's and sis's including zubaih mohd, thnx for sharing guyz


ya ali madad
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20458

PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some pertinent Farmans on this subject....

"You are aware that all rivers in the world ultimately merge with the ocean. Once having merged with the ocean it can no longer be called a river. In the same way, we (Imams) are a Divine Ocean. The final and ultimate destination of your soul is in this ocean, that is, it is in Us." (Kach Nagalpur, Nov 28, 1903)

"We send you our blessings that your soul may attain the Union with the Nur-e-Imamah" (Karachi, Jan 8, 1912)

"If you consider us as your Lord, Master and Creator, shouldn't you then obey anything that we command?" (Zanzibar, Aug 22, 1905)

"Live in this world, and while living in this world, do good deeds. A momin can also be in union with the Ultimate in this world." (Dar es Salaam, Mar 9, 1925)
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ismaili Teachings on the Oneness of God (Tawhid): Beyond Personalist Theism and Modern Atheism

http://ismailignosis.com/2016/01/22/ismaili-teachings-on-the-oneness-of-god-tawhid-beyond-personalist-theism-and-modern-atheism/
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saying of Imam al-Baqir

"The world, al-Baqir maintains, cannot exist even for a moment without the Imam who is the Hujja of God. If the Imam were to be taken away from the earth even for an hour, the earth would swallow up its inhabitants just as the sea swallows its people. ‘We [the Imams] are,’ al-Baqir says, ‘the Hujja [proof] of God and His Gate. We are the tongue as well as the face of God; we are the eyes of God [guarding] His creation and we are the responsible guardians (wulat al-amir) of God on earth.’ Al-Baqir adds that God is worshipped through the Imams and it is through them that God is known and declared as One..."

- Arzina Lalani, Early Shi'i Thought: the Teachings of Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (New York: I.B. Tauris, 2000): 83
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arlenebatada



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imam al-Baqir (a.s.) said:
"Accepting tawhid means to recognize that Allah who cannot be seen with eyes.. He is creator of things and is aware of everything; He is hidden from the beginning as He has explained Himself. You should know that we (the Imams) are the one who are the expression and meaning of tawhid; Allah created us from His light; and gave the matters of people to us; and we can do what we feel like with His permission and saying; and He wishes what we wish; and we wish what He wishes; our will is His will; He gave us this status and class; and gave us glory amongst His people; and declared us as his hujjat (proof) in his state. If anyone rejects our glories, or rejects our saying; he has in reality rejected the signs of Allah... Whosoever recognizes Allah with these properties, he has accepted tawhid; because these properties are according to what is stated in Qur'an, and that is this saying of Allah"

Imam Zain al-'Abideen (a.s.) looked at Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) and asked a group of people
"Who is he?"
They replied, "O! Son of Prophet , he is your son".
Imam asked "Who am I?"
They replied, "You are his father, Imam 'Ali bin Hussain (Imam Zain al-'Abideen's true name)"

Thus Imam recited few words.. immediately Imam al-Baqir (a.s.) turned into Imam Zain al- 'Abideen (a.s) and Imam Zainul al-'Abideen (a.s.) became Imam al-Baqir (a.s).
Upon observing this, all the companions started reciting "La ila ha illallah".

Imam Zain al-'Abideen (a.s) said, "Do not be surprised at the supremacy of Allah. I am Muhammad and Muhammad is from 'Ali."

Imam Muhammed al-Baqir (a.s.) then explained, "O! People, do not be surprised to see the 'Amr Allah (Order of Allah)', I am Muhammad and 'Ali is in my (Muhammad's) appearance. We are all the same, from one 'Noor' and our souls are 'Amr Allah (Order of Allah)'. Our first was Muhammad, our middle one was Muhammad and our last one is also Muhammad, in fact we are all Muhammad."

Upon listening this, they all went down in prostration and uttered "We all believe in your authority- also in your hidden attributes, in your clear miracles and we submit to your eloquent status and high ranks."

Imam said, "Rise from prostration and lift your faces, now you truly recognize us and have succeeded! You have witnessed the facts and perfected your beliefs and by doing so you have found means of reaching Allah. Be aware! by Allah, Do not show these signs to the one who have weak-beliefs and are among 'muqassareen'- What you have observed today from my son and myself. If you are going to narrate what you have seen today then people will not admit it and make ridicule of you."

They replied "We have understood it and we will obey you."

Imam said "Now go away since you achieved comprehensive guidance." And they went away.

(Bihar al-anwar:26/13, 2)

Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.s) said:
"I and 'Ali are one and the same light.."
(Fayd al-Kashani's Walaya, Reason & Inspiration in Islam, 463)

Pir Sadardin (r.a) writes:
Sami raja nure Muhammad te nur Ali Murtaza..
O Lord! The nur of Muhammad is the nur of Murtada 'Ali

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (a.s) said:
"I am the Light of both Hazrat 'Ali and the Prophet (Muhammad). Though young in age I am exalted."
( 1 Sep 1885, Bombay)
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20458

PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a related book: The Noor En Allah Noor - in PDF at:

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/15494
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is Nur?

Is it an awareness, realization, feeling, belief that it is present? Or there is some extraordinary experience where you find yourself immersing in the Nur and you can experience it first hand (a magical experience)?

There are a lot of documents/papers like Noor-en-Noor that talk about the presence of the Nur. But I have not come across any that truly describe Nur.

Would appreciate if someone can share some thoughts on this.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nur literally means light. Light enables one to see objects around and hence can serve as a symbol of concepts that may be comprehensible or not but which convey the notion of purity, perfection , wholeness and something that gives meaning and awareness to existence.

Hence the Qur'an uses it as a symbol of God the incomprehensible and unknowable entity which is the source of creation - Alluhu nuru samati wal ardh (Allah is the Light of the heavens uand the earth).

The Imam being the Mazhar or Hujjah is the Bearere of the Nur and hence is the embodiment of this perfection and wholeness and all 'qualities' of God are encompassed in him.
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks kmaherali
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FreeLancer



Joined: 13 Feb 2018
Posts: 182

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Noor is a mystery as the Soul is. Infact Noor and Soul are same. Allah says in Quran that you (human beings) have been given little knowledge.
Allah, Rasul, Imam, Pirs and Hujjats have not described or defined the real nature of Noor or Soul. In Ginanic literature the word Noor is used in different ways. Imams have explained the Noor in terms of light (just for explanation).
Quran says: WE MADE FROM WATER EVERY THING, WILL THEY NOT THEN BELIEVE. Surah Al Ambiya', Ayat # 30. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah in his farman has used the phrase "NOOR NU PAANI" means water of Noor.
In the famous Ayat e Noor, Quran says: ALLAH IS THE NOOR OF HEAVENS AND EARTH. It should ne noted that the word 'SAMAWAAT' is in plural form and the word 'AL ARDH" is singular. Why the word AL ARDH is in singular form when in universe there are unlimited earths?
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Freelancer, I did not expect to get this response on this forum. I'm quite impressed. Thanks much for sharing your thoughts.

The most interesting were the first couple lines:

"The Noor is a mystery as the Soul is. Infact Noor and Soul are same. Allah says in Quran that you (human beings) have been given little knowledge.
Allah, Rasul, Imam, Pirs and Hujjats have not described or defined the real nature of Noor or Soul."

I'm on the same page with you on this.

The Intellect we can consciously recognize as we see it in action within the physical domain. We can compare ourselves to animals and distinguish that we have higher level of Intellect compared to animals.

Now a lot of reference in world religions and more so in Ismailism is on the Soul. Has anyone been able to feel their Soul? How do we really know if the Soul even exists? Hence, the mystery - what is Nur?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20458

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:

In the famous Ayat e Noor, Quran says: ALLAH IS THE NOOR OF HEAVENS AND EARTH. It should ne noted that the word 'SAMAWAAT' is in plural form and the word 'AL ARDH" is singular. Why the word AL ARDH is in singular form when in universe there are unlimited earths?
Interesting observation! In my opinion al-ardh (the earth) is a symbol of the material existence which is common to everyone and shared by everyone. Hence a table, chair, food etc are recognized by everyone.

Samawaati (the heavens) are the symbols of non-physical existences that individuals experience as they make spiritual journey towards the experience of Light. These existences are not available to everyone. Only for those who are progressing on the spiritual journey. Each person will have his/her heavenly existence depending upon his progress. Hence there can be infinitely many such existences.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sheri wrote:

Now a lot of reference in world religions and more so in Ismailism is on the Soul. Has anyone been able to feel their Soul? How do we really know if the Soul even exists? Hence, the mystery - what is Nur?
In an esoteric tradition there are matters that cannot be known at an ordinary level and hence cannot be discussed. As is stated in Granth: Buj Niranjan:

re tu(n)hee maaraa saachaa saaee(n)yaa(n) piyujee tu(n)hee
niraalaa nira(n)jan kahee-e(n),
niraalee kahee-e(n) kuchh baata re;
gu(n)ge sapanaa paae-aa,
samaja samaja pachhataa ya re..................................I

O You, my True Lord, You are indeed my Beloved
Mysterious is the indescriptible, and mysterious are all it's descriptions and allusions. It is like a dumb person experiencing a beautiful dream and is regretful not being able to describe it to others.

As our Imam also tells us, it is futile to discuss higher experiences to those who are not initiated and hence do not have the experience. And for those who have made progress, they know it and hence no need to explain to them.
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