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Allah and the Nur of Allah
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kandani



Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:43 pm    Post subject: Allah and the Nur of Allah Reply with quote

Are Allah and the Nur of Allah the same thing?

It is said that the Imam is Epiphany of the Nur of Allah. Now, is the Nur of Allah and Allah the same thing? Or is Nur something that emanated/is from Allah.

According to me, the Nur of Allah is the Universal Intellect. This is equal to the Divine Word of Allah that was uttered to cause the Creation.

In my opinion, the Divine hierarchy is as follows:
Allah - The Unknowable God
Ali - The Universal Intellect
Muhammad - The Universal Soul

We can only know Allah through Ali and Muhammad. Since really, they make Allah manifest.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nur of Allah and Allah is same.According to Quran Nur is Allah. Dont think Mowla Ali,Nabi Mohammad and Allah as different.
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roxy



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Allah and the Nur of Allah Reply with quote

kandani wrote:
Are Allah and the Nur of Allah the same thing?

It is said that the Imam is Epiphany of the Nur of Allah. Now, is the Nur of Allah and Allah the same thing? Or is Nur something that emanated/is from Allah.

According to me, the Nur of Allah is the Universal Intellect. This is equal to the Divine Word of Allah that was uttered to cause the Creation.

In my opinion, the Divine hierarchy is as follows:
Allah - The Unknowable God
Ali - The Universal Intellect
Muhammad - The Universal Soul

We can only know Allah through Ali and Muhammad. Since really, they make Allah manifest.


Regarding Allah and Nur - Quran is clear - In the parable of light - The Olive Tree is the source of the Light. Besides this, Quran also reveals Lord is Allah and hence the Light is of the Lord's. So why do you ask questions when everything is very very clear.
It appears you reject the quran because you hate what quran has revealed.

You mention:
We can only know Allah through Ali and Muhammad. Since really, they make Allah manifest
--------
So without muhammad - Allah/Ali is not manifest ? Is this what you are trying to say?
Why do you ask questions when Quran is clear and Quran reveals he is the first and he is manifest ........ And why do you use the word "We"..... I am not a partner to your rumor mongering about Allah, which please note.

You mention:
In my opinion, the Divine hierarchy is as follows:
Allah - The Unknowable God
Ali - The Universal Intellect
Muhammad - The Universal Soul
-----------------------------------------
You mean to mention that Allah is depended on Muhammad for His Soul?
- if the answer is yes then Allah is not the First ?
Or do you mention there are two Allahs?
Where do you get such ideas?
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kandani



Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxy,

dont play stupid with me! You speak as if i'm dumb. And no, i am not rumour mongering, so STOP accusing everyone who doesnt agree with you of that.

As for the hierarchy i presnted, this is authorized by the Fatimid Imams as well as the Alamut Imams. So, no, this is NO rumour!
Read Henry Corbin, Allah first created the Universal Intellect aka "The Ali" aka Shri Vishnu. From the Universal Intellect, proceeded the Universal Soul aka "The Muhammad" aka Shri Brahma. All the material creation proceeded from the Universal Soul - ie: Brahma the Creator-God. This philosophy is also that of Plato. It has parallels also in the Jewish Kabbalah, and Hindu philosophy. Remember, Islam is a pluralistic faith, there is unity in a diversity of interpretations!

As for the interpretation of Sura Nur, each individual can interpret his own way, you have no monopoly over its interpretation.

In fact, i suggest you stop your rumour mongering!
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roxy



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kandani wrote:
Roxy,

dont play stupid with me! You speak as if i'm dumb. And no, i am not rumour mongering, so STOP accusing everyone who doesnt agree with you of that.

As for the hierarchy i presnted, this is authorized by the Fatimid Imams as well as the Alamut Imams. So, no, this is NO rumour!
Read Henry Corbin, Allah first created the Universal Intellect aka "The Ali" aka Shri Vishnu. From the Universal Intellect, proceeded the Universal Soul aka "The Muhammad" aka Shri Brahma. All the material creation proceeded from the Universal Soul - ie: Brahma the Creator-God. This philosophy is also that of Plato. It has parallels also in the Jewish Kabbalah, and Hindu philosophy. Remember, Islam is a pluralistic faith, there is unity in a diversity of interpretations!

As for the interpretation of Sura Nur, each individual can interpret his own way, you have no monopoly over its interpretation.

In fact, i suggest you stop your rumour mongering!


Let me cut in short:

You mention:
"Allah first created the Universal Intellect aka "The Ali" aka Shri Vishnu".
--------------------------------------
Quran reveals:
(1) Lord is Allah;
(2) Lord is He whose throne was over the water;
(3) History is important

and history reveals that Lord Vishnu's throne was over the water. Lord Vishnu is thus Allah and hence where is the question of Allah creating an Allah ?

You also mention:
Read Henry Corbin
----------------------------
you can well understand that your following henry corbin guidance is leading to many allahs. I suggest you read the farmans of mawlana hazar imam. Quran also reveals only allah is the creator and allah is one.
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kandani



Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2003 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"2) Lord is He whose throne was over the water; "

- yes, the "THRONE" was over the water. Let me ask you, what is the "THRONE"? The Throne is the Imam. The Throne has also been equated to the Universal Intellect. Therefore, the Imam is the Epiphany of the Universal Intellect.

"nd history reveals that Lord Vishnu's throne was over the water. Lord Vishnu is thus Allah"
- no, Lord Vishnu was over the water. Vishnu was a fish, the fish was in water. Therefore, Lord Vishnu - Universal Intellect - Imam is the THRONE of Allah.

"the last Imam of the Cycle, the Qaim or Resurrector, having completed the work of the Seventh Day and erected the THRONE THAT HE HIMSELF IS 'IN PERSON' "- Henry Corbin, Cyclical Time and Ismaili Gnosis

Allah is the Unlimited, Ultimate, Unknowable Origin. Allah has no attributes, as He is beyond them. Therefore, the Allah cannot take any form or manifestation. However, all the attributes of Allah actually apply to the Universal Intellect. And the Imam is the epiphany of these attributes as relative to men.

“Divine Intellect, ` Aql-i kulli, at the same time transcend and inform human intellect. It is this Intellect which makes it possible to the man to tend towards two goals dictated by the faith, that is to say: that it should reflect on the environment that Allah gave him, and that it should know itself. It is the Light of the intellect which distinguishes the human integral one from the human-animal, and the fact of developing this intellect requires a free will. The man of faith which omits to continue intellectual research, will have only one limited comprehension of the creation of Allah. Indeed, it is the intellect of the man who allows him to widen his vision of this creation.” (Agha Khan IV 1985: 11)
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roxy



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2003 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kandani,

To cut you in short
----------------------

You mention:
Let me ask you, what is the "THRONE"? The Throne is the Imam.
----------
Please note, Allah's interpretation is final. So throne means throne and Imam means Imam. OK. History reveals Lord Vishnu's throne was over the water. You do not have authority to term allah's interpretation as incorrect. What is there is there. OK.

By the way who told you that the quran/history is hocus pocus? Taking into account what you mentioned it is possible next time you may term praying as eating, going to movies, seeing a picture and so on ---

Quran also reveals that Lord is God and Lord is a human being.

If you want to prove something, take into account the farmans of mawlana hazar, quran, history, dua, etc. - else you are outside the faith.


Last edited by roxy on Sun Jun 22, 2003 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total
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kandani



Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2003 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"You do not have authority to term allah's interpretation as incorrect. What is there is there. OK."

- you are not Allah, therefore, you do not know Allah's interpretation.

"Quran also reveals that Lord is God and Lord is a human being. "

- No, Quran NEVER said that Lord is a human being. Produce your proof of this.

Surat-ul-lkhlas- Sura 112 -

“In the name of God,
the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Say, it is God. The One.
God is Absolute, Independent.
He did not beget nor He was begotten
and there is none like unto Him.”

- human being is NOT Absolute
- human being is NOT Independent
- human being DOES beget
- human being WAS begotten
- there are many human beings
- but Allah is all these things
THEREFORE, Lord IS NOT and CANNOT be a human being.
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roxy



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2003 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kandani wrote:
"You do not have authority to term allah's interpretation as incorrect. What is there is there. OK."

- you are not Allah, therefore, you do not know Allah's interpretation.

"Quran also reveals that Lord is God and Lord is a human being. "

- No, Quran NEVER said that Lord is a human being. Produce your proof of this.

Surat-ul-lkhlas- Sura 112 -

“In the name of God,
the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Say, it is God. The One.
God is Absolute, Independent.
He did not beget nor He was begotten
and there is none like unto Him.”

- human being is NOT Absolute
- human being is NOT Independent
- human being DOES beget
- human being WAS begotten
- there are many human beings
- but Allah is all these things
THEREFORE, Lord IS NOT and CANNOT be a human being.


You mention:
- you are not Allah, therefore, you do not know Allah's interpretation.
---------
Now what do you mean "you do not know allah's interpretation". If the quran does not contain allah's interpretation then are you trying to convey that it contains your interpretation? You know you mentioned Throne as Imam and your many allah's theory.

Please note quran reveals that it is very clear and easy to understand. So actually quran or allah's interpretation or allah's messages being hocus pocus does not arise.

You mention:
- No, Quran NEVER said that Lord is a human being. Produce your proof of this.
-------------
Lord is a human being. You will find human beings being termed as Lord in the Quran. As such, if your thinking and interpretations goes against this than your thinkings and interpretations are wrong in toto.

Regarding Surat-ul-lkhlas- Sura 112
He did not beget nor He was begotten
---
God was the First - so no one begotten him.
Though God is the creator he does not create anything in a physical sense and so he did not beget anything in a physical sense.

Quran reveals Lord, a human being, is God and human being does not have divinity - never ending life. So the form changes but the His light is the same.

Quran also reveals Lord is God and Lord is the one whose throne was over the water and Lord Vishnu's throne was over the water.

Do I hear you again saying the Throne does not mean Throne but Imam and again terming allah's message / allah's interpretation as incorrect ??

From the ayat you conveyed it also appears that you now agree that God is one and not many Allahs - which you were terming before.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2003 1:24 pm    Post subject: Imam=Allah Reply with quote

Ya Aly Madad,

Allah says He is Zahir. I think that is Him as Imam

but He also says that He is Batin. I think this means him as Nur.

Now the question is, can this be true that ZAHIR=BATIN?

49th Imam Shah Karim Farman (salwat) "He is above all else"

What is above "all" else by definition has to to be above creation.

The fact that there is a creation indicates that there is a creator.

Allah says he is Khaliq which means Creator.

Now if Allah is the creator that limits him to an act of creation (even though it is a perpetual act)

I think the creator is Allah as Imam.

Now look at the name AS-SAMAD which means he is independent of all.

Is not a creator tied to creation? (perpetually connected to the act of creation)

Mowla Aly has Farman which states that Allah is above imagination. 49th Imam states "He who is above the human mind" "... above the human Intellect".

Trying to discuss this is a waste of time as clearly Allah is unknowable according to Mowla Aly's Farman.

The closest we can ever be to him in this world is to follow the Farmans of Hazir Imam and stay devoted to him until he decides it is time for us to enter the next world.

One thing is for sure that his Nur is in everyone including kandani and roxy. If we can be aware of this at all times, I think we will never make the mistake of disrespecting Allah.

Ya Aly Madad

Shams
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2003 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allah is the Unlimited, Ultimate, Unknowable Origin. Allah has no attributes, as He is beyond them. Therefore, the Allah cannot take any form or manifestation.


YOU ARE WRONG IF YOU SAY THIS BECAUSE IT IS AGAINST ISMAILISM.FIRST YOU WROTE THAT ALLAH IS UNLIMITED,ULTIMATE AND THAN YOU WROTE HE CAN NOT TAKE ANY FORM OR MANIFESTATION???
I THINK FIRST OF ALL YOU MUST LEARN THAT GOD CAN DO EVERY THING.YOUR STATEMENT IS AGAINST GINANS AND FARMANS AND YOUR THEORY BY WHICH IT IS PROVED THAT THERE IS NOT ONE GOD IS AGAINST ISLAM.IS THERE ANY FARMAN OR GINAN BY WHICH YOU CAN PROVE THAT WHAT YOU SAID IS RIGHT.NUR MEANS DIVINE LIGHT AND ALLAH IS NUR.WHAT IS IN FARMAN AND QURAN AND GINAN IS RIGHT
AND IF ANY AUTHOR WRITE OTHER THAN WHAT S N FARMAN QURAN AND GINAN THAN HE S WRONG.
However, all the attributes of Allah actually apply to the Universal Intellect. And the Imam is the epiphany of these attributes as relative to men.

“Divine Intellect, ` Aql-i kulli, at the same time transcend and inform human intellect. It is this Intellect which makes it possible to the man to tend towards two goals dictated by the faith, that is to say: that it should reflect on the environment that Allah gave him, and that it should know itself. It is the Light of the intellect which distinguishes the human integral one from the human-animal, and the fact of developing this intellect requires a free will. The man of faith which omits to continue intellectual research, will have only one limited comprehension of the creation of Allah. Indeed, it is the intellect of the man who allows him to widen his vision of this creation.” (Agha Khan IV 1985: 11)
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roxy



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2003 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Imam=Allah Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
Ya Aly Madad,

Allah says He is Zahir. I think that is Him as Imam

but He also says that He is Batin. I think this means him as Nur.

Now the question is, can this be true that ZAHIR=BATIN?

49th Imam Shah Karim Farman (salwat) "He is above all else"

What is above "all" else by definition has to to be above creation.

The fact that there is a creation indicates that there is a creator.

Allah says he is Khaliq which means Creator.

Now if Allah is the creator that limits him to an act of creation (even though it is a perpetual act)

I think the creator is Allah as Imam.

Now look at the name AS-SAMAD which means he is independent of all.

Is not a creator tied to creation? (perpetually connected to the act of creation)

Mowla Aly has Farman which states that Allah is above imagination. 49th Imam states "He who is above the human mind" "... above the human Intellect".

Trying to discuss this is a waste of time as clearly Allah is unknowable according to Mowla Aly's Farman.

The closest we can ever be to him in this world is to follow the Farmans of Hazir Imam and stay devoted to him until he decides it is time for us to enter the next world.

One thing is for sure that his Nur is in everyone including kandani and roxy. If we can be aware of this at all times, I think we will never make the mistake of disrespecting Allah.

Ya Aly Madad

Shams


Quran reveals that Lord, a human being, is God and the Light is His and He is the First, He is the Last, He is the Manifest and He is the Hidden and that is that. That Quran reveals Lord is God - the matter was already settled - however, you have got your thinking into the picture possibly because according to you your thinking has more weightage then Allah's thinking??

You even mention:
Mowla Aly has Farman which states that Allah is above imagination. 49th Imam states "He who is above the human mind" "... above the human Intellect". Trying to discuss this is a waste of time as clearly Allah is unknowable according to Mowla Aly's Farman.
---------
Your thinking of Mawla Aly's farman is wrong because your thinking is not based on farman since nowhere the farman mention allah is unknowable. It mentions Allah is above all because He is above all. Even Quran reveals Allah is above all - allah is above everything.

The message the holy prophet gave Lord is God - you mean to say the holy prophet is a mad person or he told a lie that Lord is God when God is unknowable. So you see because allah is above all does not mean that he is unknowable. The holy prophet gave a clear message that Lord is God. You and your thinking - just because quran reveals Allah is above all you think above all means unknowable. It is possible tht tomorrow you will mention praying means playing, running, going the movies, etc. etc. I suggest keep your thinking to yourself if it goes against Allah's thinking because Allah's thinking is final.
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roxy



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2003 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

star_munir wrote:
Allah is the Unlimited, Ultimate, Unknowable Origin. Allah has no attributes, as He is beyond them. Therefore, the Allah cannot take any form or manifestation.


YOU ARE WRONG IF YOU SAY THIS BECAUSE IT IS AGAINST ISMAILISM.FIRST YOU WROTE THAT ALLAH IS UNLIMITED,ULTIMATE AND THAN YOU WROTE HE CAN NOT TAKE ANY FORM OR MANIFESTATION???
I THINK FIRST OF ALL YOU MUST LEARN THAT GOD CAN DO EVERY THING.YOUR STATEMENT IS AGAINST GINANS AND FARMANS AND YOUR THEORY BY WHICH IT IS PROVED THAT THERE IS NOT ONE GOD IS AGAINST ISLAM.IS THERE ANY FARMAN OR GINAN BY WHICH YOU CAN PROVE THAT WHAT YOU SAID IS RIGHT.NUR MEANS DIVINE LIGHT AND ALLAH IS NUR.WHAT IS IN FARMAN AND QURAN AND GINAN IS RIGHT
AND IF ANY AUTHOR WRITE OTHER THAN WHAT S N FARMAN QURAN AND GINAN THAN HE S WRONG.
However, all the attributes of Allah actually apply to the Universal Intellect. And the Imam is the epiphany of these attributes as relative to men.

“Divine Intellect, ` Aql-i kulli, at the same time transcend and inform human intellect. It is this Intellect which makes it possible to the man to tend towards two goals dictated by the faith, that is to say: that it should reflect on the environment that Allah gave him, and that it should know itself. It is the Light of the intellect which distinguishes the human integral one from the human-animal, and the fact of developing this intellect requires a free will. The man of faith which omits to continue intellectual research, will have only one limited comprehension of the creation of Allah. Indeed, it is the intellect of the man who allows him to widen his vision of this creation.” (Agha Khan IV 1985: 11)


Quran reveals Lord, a human being, is Allah and the Light is His.
The holy prophet has given this clear message of Allah. So physically he is limited and not unlimited.

Yes Allah/mawlana hazar imam is unlimited and all that. Mawlana hazar imam's farman is he is nearer to us than our vein. However, this is purely in a non-physical sense. You will find similar message in the quran besides the message that Lord is Allah.

So Allah is limited and unlimited.

Even the parable of the allah's light reveal that the oil of the blessed Olive Tree lights the lamp and so the blessed Olive Tree is the source. You will find in the quran that allah is the source of all things. So physiclally Allah is at one place and he is limited and not unlimited.

In the premises aforesaid physically Allah is at one place and physically he is not unlimited but limited. The Light is His. Without him there is no light. Without Him the world cannot exist. So you see Allah's nature is actually omnipotent.

You also mention:
Allah is of Unknowable Origin
------
Quran reveals Allah is the first. This is his origin.

So please keep your thinking to yourself if your thinking keeps going contrary to allah/mawlana hazar imam's thinking - please try to understand that your thinking is not above allah's thinking. When you think your thinking is above allah's thinking then you are clearly outside the faith.
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kandani



Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it seems Roxy (aka: Anis Kamdar) is Ismailism's answer to the Taliban. I guess we all have our extremists. Roxy constantly quotes the Quran out of context, gives it his own illogical interpretation, and then deems that interpretation as Allah's own. Meanwhile, he condemns any other interpretation and any form of free thought. This is not within the spirit of Islam.
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roxy



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kandani wrote:
Well, it seems Roxy (aka: Anis Kamdar) is Ismailism's answer to the Taliban. I guess we all have our extremists. Roxy constantly quotes the Quran out of context, gives it his own illogical interpretation, and then deems that interpretation as Allah's own. Meanwhile, he condemns any other interpretation and any form of free thought. This is not within the spirit of Islam.


The ID is roxy and I have kept my identity a secret.

Regarding other things as you have talked in the air - I am ignoring what you say.

In the meantime, some sharing of knowledge:

Some of the verses that reveal Lord is Allah are as under (and if you go through the Quran you will notice human beings are termed as Lord):

Yunus - 10
3) Verily your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six days and is firmly established on the Throne (of authority) regulating and governing all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His leave (hath been obtained). This is Allah your Lord; Him therefore serve ye: will ye not celebrate His praises?

Ha-Mim - 41
30) In the case of those who say "Our Lord is Allah" and further stand straight and steadfast the angels descend on them (from time to time): "Fear ye not!" (they suggest) "nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss) the which ye were promised !

Al-Kahf, or the Cave (XVIII)
3icon_cool.gif "But as for my part Allah is my Lord, and none shall I associate with my Lord.

Al-Araf, or The Heights (VII)
206) Those who are near to thy Lord, disdain not to worship Him:
they glorify Him and prostrate before Him.

Contents from the Dua (surat-ul-fatiha[1]):
----------------
You alone we worship and from you alone we seek help. Guide us on the right path.....

Dua also reveal:
Seek at the time of difficulties, the help of your Mawla the present living Shah Karim al-Hussaini.

Contents of Farman Mubarak of Mawlana Hazar Imam - Karachi - Salgirah Darbar - 13th December, 1964.
-----
You have looked to the Imam of the Age for advice and help in all matters; and through your Imam's immense love and affection for his spiritual children, his Noor has indicated to you where and in which direction you must turn, so as to obtain spiritual and worldly satisfaction.

Dua/Quran clearly mention one should worship and seek help from Allah only and the farman also makes it clear that ismailis look to mawlana hazar imam for advice and help in all mattes. So mawlana hazar imam is allah. Farman also reveal that the Noor is his (Mawlana Hazar Imam's).

Farman Mubarak - Poona 22 February 1969
-----
I would like each and every spiritual child not only to know the dua by heart, but to understand the meaning of the dua. It is fundamental for you and for your children and for the future of our jamat that each and every one of you, particularly the younger members of the Jamat, should understand the meaning of the Dua.


Farman
---------
Karachi, Pakistan
Sunday, November 29, 1964.
(Garden Religious Night Schools)

This means that God says to you, He is addressing men and women and He says He has made you out of one soul. This means that you are at all times brothers and sisters. That He has created you from one soul and it is only if you live within this spirit, within this understanding, that you can really act as a Jamat and act as brothers and sisters, which indeed you are.

--- It is to be noted that mawlana hazar imam address the jamat as "My beloved spiritual children". So it is He who has made "you out of one soul".
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arshad1988



Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAM to all,

I have a few questions:

Are all humans the spiritual children of Allah?
If so, are all humans spiritual children of Mowla Bapa, as he only uses this title to Ismailis in His firmans?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20458

PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arshad1988 wrote:
YAM to all,

I have a few questions:

Are all humans the spiritual children of Allah?
If so, are all humans spiritual children of Mowla Bapa, as he only uses this title to Ismailis in His firmans?


Yes all humans are spiritual children of Allah.

Yes all humans are spiritual children of Mowla Bapa except that they do not recognise him as such and hence he does not appear to them in that light.

There are two aspects of Imamat; the Shah - the mazhar of the object of devotion and the Pir - the mazhar of the guide or intercessor. In the former capacity he is for all creation and in the latter capacity he is the Murshid of Ismailis only. Other tariqahs have their own Murshids...
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arshad1988



Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, is the Shah, in terms of kandani's interpretation the Unknowable God and the Universal Intellect, and the Pir is the Universal Soul?

Also, as the Shah is the object of devotion, our devotion is not Pir? Or is it through the Pir our devotion reaches Shah, as Pir is the intercessor? And is it in that sense, we say Imam is a medium or intercessor to which we pray through? So ultimately, when we call on Ya Muhammad, we are praying through an intercessor directly to the object of devotion, the Shah? And when we call Ya Ali, are we already calling or praying to the object of devotion, the Shah?

I also wanted to know why some members in the forum state Allah is not unknowable? Is it because we know Imam?

Lastly, I just wanted to clarify, when we are talking in regards to Imam in terms of Shah and Pir, we are referring in regards to the spiritual realm, and not physical realm right? In terms of physical, He is our guide, and that His Noor guides us in which direction to turn?

Sorry, I know that's a lot of questions but they just poured out as I typed. Thanks for the reply, and any future replies will be really appreciated!!! icon_biggrin.gif

Ya Ali Madad,
Arshad
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arshad1988



Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, one more question lol.

Kmaherali, you also mention 'mazhar' of object of devotion and 'mazhar' of guide. Do the body/mind/soul/noor/spirit all compose the mazhar?

-Arshad
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ShamsB



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
arshad1988 wrote:
YAM to all,

I have a few questions:

Are all humans the spiritual children of Allah?
If so, are all humans spiritual children of Mowla Bapa, as he only uses this title to Ismailis in His firmans?


Yes all humans are spiritual children of Allah.

Yes all humans are spiritual children of Mowla Bapa except that they do not recognise him as such and hence he does not appear to them in that light.

There are two aspects of Imamat; the Shah - the mazhar of the object of devotion and the Pir - the mazhar of the guide or intercessor. In the former capacity he is for all creation and in the latter capacity he is the Murshid of Ismailis only. Other tariqahs have their own Murshids...


Keep in mind that there can be only ONE Pir at any given time just as there can only be ONE Imam - and that today is Shah Karim for both instances, in this instance what Karim mentions as Murshid does not equate to the status of a Murshid in our Tariqah.

Shams
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arshad1988 wrote:
So, is the Shah, in terms of kandani's interpretation the Unknowable God and the Universal Intellect, and the Pir is the Universal Soul?

I won't speak for others but according to my understanding the Shah is the Mazhar of the Essence - the highest metaphysical state from which every other existence comes fortht. The Pir is the Mazhar of the Universal Intellect and the creation is the Universal Soul.

Since the Essence encompasses everything, the Shah is also the Pir - the bearer of the Universal Intellect. However he may choose the delegate the function of the Pir to another member of Ahl al-Bayt. This has happened in our history.

arshad1988 wrote:

Also, as the Shah is the object of devotion, our devotion is not Pir? Or is it through the Pir our devotion reaches Shah, as Pir is the intercessor? And is it in that sense, we say Imam is a medium or intercessor to which we pray through? So ultimately, when we call on Ya Muhammad, we are praying through an intercessor directly to the object of devotion, the Shah? And when we call Ya Ali, are we already calling or praying to the object of devotion, the Shah?


Our object of devotion is the Shah as per the following verse of the Ginan "Allah ek Khasam"

"Nabi Muhamad bujo bhai to tame paamo Imam'
Meaning:

Know the Prophet so that you may attain the Imam.

The Pir is our spiritual support and his grace boosts our prayers. He can also pray on our behalf and bear the burden of our sins if necessary.

arshad1988 wrote:

I also wanted to know why some members in the forum state Allah is not unknowable? Is it because we know Imam?


There is an anecdote about Imam Jaffer as Sadiq wherein he was asked whether God can be known and he replied that he is present even right now. Then the questioner asked whether he could reveal this to others and the Imam said no, they will misconstrue it...

One can say that the one who has recognised the Imam in his essence has known God.

[quote="arshad1988"]
Lastly, I just wanted to clarify, when we are talking in regards to Imam in terms of Shah and Pir, we are referring in regards to the spiritual realm, and not physical realm right? In terms of physical, He is our guide, and that His Noor guides us in which direction to turn?[quote]

As per MHI's speech, Islam does not deal in dichotomies, body and spirit are one.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arshad1988 wrote:
Sorry, one more question lol.

Kmaherali, you also mention 'mazhar' of object of devotion and 'mazhar' of guide. Do the body/mind/soul/noor/spirit all compose the mazhar?

-Arshad



Yes, as mentioned before there are no dichotomies.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some hadiths of Imam Jaffer as Sadiq on this subject:

Imam as-Sadiq said: “Through the adoration of us, Allah is adored.” (Al-Kulayni Al-Kafi 1:144, 1:193, as-Saduq Tawhid 156)


Imam as-Sadiq said: Through us Allah is known, and through us Allah is worshipped. (As-Saduq Tawhid 152)


Imam al-Baqir said said: If it were not for Allah we would not be known, and if it were not for us Allah would not be known.(As-Saduq Tawhid 290)


The Prophet said: “He who dies without knowing the Imam of his time, has died the death of ignorance.”


The Prophet said: “I am the city of knowledge, and ‘Ali is its gate.”


The Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq replied one day to a man [Abu Basir] who asked him whether it was true on the day of the Resurrection [that] God would be visible to all: “Yes,” said the Imam. “He is visible even before that day; he has been visible since the day when He asked: “Am I not your Lord?” The True Believers have seen him even in this world. Dost thou not see him?” And then Abu Basir replied: “O my Lord, I see thee. Permit that by thy authority I go and announce it to the others.” But the Imam said: “No, say nothing to anyone, for the people are stupid and ignorant, they will not understand; they will disavow you and hurl anathema at you.” (Qtd. in Corbin Cyclial 129)
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arshad1988



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="kmaherali"]

[quote="arshad1988"]
Lastly, I just wanted to clarify, when we are talking in regards to Imam in terms of Shah and Pir, we are referring in regards to the spiritual realm, and not physical realm right? In terms of physical, He is our guide, and that His Noor guides us in which direction to turn?
Quote:


As per MHI's speech, Islam does not deal in dichotomies, body and spirit are one.


I really appreciate the replies Kmaherali, and Shams! So then, do we pray to the mazhar of the essence?

And if we do pray to the mazhar of the essence, and body and spirit are one, then what did Imam SMS mean when He said that those who worship the body are idolaters? Maybe Imam SMS was referring to zahir? Sorry, I might have understood you when you said there are dichotomies, or I may have not. I just want to know what you guys feel and know the truth for myself.

I know that I have to do a lot of soul searching on my own, and I can't always rely on you guys for the convenience answers, as you guys probably get annoyed of repeating the same answers. Do you guys recommend any books, articles, etc. on where I can go about learning more about our faith, more specifically our Imam in the batini sense? Thanks,

Ya Ali Madad,
-Arshad
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ShamsB



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="arshad1988"][quote="kmaherali"]

arshad1988 wrote:

Lastly, I just wanted to clarify, when we are talking in regards to Imam in terms of Shah and Pir, we are referring in regards to the spiritual realm, and not physical realm right? In terms of physical, He is our guide, and that His Noor guides us in which direction to turn?
Quote:


As per MHI's speech, Islam does not deal in dichotomies, body and spirit are one.


I really appreciate the replies Kmaherali, and Shams! So then, do we pray to the mazhar of the essence?

And if we do pray to the mazhar of the essence, and body and spirit are one, then what did Imam SMS mean when He said that those who worship the body are idolaters? Maybe Imam SMS was referring to zahir? Sorry, I might have understood you when you said there are dichotomies, or I may have not. I just want to know what you guys feel and know the truth for myself.

I know that I have to do a lot of soul searching on my own, and I can't always rely on you guys for the convenience answers, as you guys probably get annoyed of repeating the same answers. Do you guys recommend any books, articles, etc. on where I can go about learning more about our faith, more specifically our Imam in the batini sense? Thanks,

Ya Ali Madad,
-Arshad


We do not worship the body, but the essence within the body - the body is just a vessel - we are a batini faith.
To us the Noor is what matters, and as Hazar Imam has said numerous times HE IS THE BEARER OF THAT NOOR - and prior to him it was Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah, and after him it could be Pr. Rahim or Pr. Hussein or Pr. Aly Mohammed or any of their male issue...but this noor has always been present and will be present till the day of judgement.

Shams
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Virgo2



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Arshad,

I recommend you read "Mystical Dimensions in Islam" by Anne Marie Schimmel. It is on Sufism but a lot in there is what we are taught in Ismailism.

Virgo2
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Allah and the Nur of Allah Reply with quote

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arshad1988



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAM,
I appreciate everyone's reply, Kmaharali, ShamsB, and Virgo2 I will definately see if I can get a hold of that book! Now Shams, since we say that body and spirit are the same, is spirit same as noor? And if body and spirit are one, then wouldn't we be praying to the body as well then?
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ShamsB



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arshad1988 wrote:
YAM,
I appreciate everyone's reply, Kmaharali, ShamsB, and Virgo2 I will definately see if I can get a hold of that book! Now Shams, since we say that body and spirit are the same, is spirit same as noor? And if body and spirit are one, then wouldn't we be praying to the body as well then?


We don't say that.
That is Kmaherali's interpretation.
To me - the body is just a vessel. The body is there for us to be able to comprehend - a conduit one might add, as in our human conditions and even in our spirit conditions - the Essence is too far beyond our limits of comprehension.

Shams
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arshad1988 wrote:

And if we do pray to the mazhar of the essence, and body and spirit are one, then what did Imam SMS mean when He said that those who worship the body are idolaters? Maybe Imam SMS was referring to zahir? -Arshad


As I indicated in my earlier post, body and spirit are one as per MHI’s speech (Houston, 2002). In one of his Farmans, he stated: “The soul is created and given a physical form”, which would imply that the body is an expression of the soul. The question is how one understands the ‘soul’ in the case of the Imam. It is really an individual and a personal matter. For most of humanity the Imam is just another human being and hence his body is obviously not God to them. On the other hand, if one has recognized the ‘soul’ as being the Essence, then the body of the Imam is also God to that individual.

Since for the majority, the recognition of the Imam is between the two extremes, then we can say that on aggregate the Imam’s body is not God.

Worshipping the body without the recognition of the Mazhar of the Essence would be idol-worshipping.
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