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Pre-Adam
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 23617

PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

Interestingly there is no mention of FISH in water in Quran, Ginan, and old testament!!
The FISH represents the need for the physical manifestation to be present in creation. Hence even when only fish existed as a symbol of creation at its earliest phase of creation, God manifested as FISH. Hence the notion of avtar is the hallmark of Ismailism and is symbolized by FISH.

This does NOT suggest evolution from fish to other forms. Creation of man was not a result of evolution.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 23617

PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

You wrote 'to celebrate the light of Imamat'. where as following paragraph suggests, it is for the eternal peace of departed soul!!
Isn't that also the essence of all traditions?

The article of Mumtaz Tajdin quotes:

According to Muslim Festivals in India (Paris, 1831, tr. W. Waseem, New Delhi, 1995, pp. 76-77) that the people kindle lamp (chiragh) and recite the following prayer, known as the Fatiha Chiraghan:

“O God, through the merit of the light of the apostolate, our Lord Muhammad, may the lamp that we burn on this holy night, be for the dead a guarantee of the eternal light which we pray to you for. O God of ours! Deign to admit them in the room of unchanging felicity”

Having expressed the above intention, they recite the first and the 102nd chapters of the Koran. This ceremony lasts for three days. There was a popular custom also to send lamps to the mosque, vide I’jaz-i Khusaro (Lucknow, 1876, 4:324) by Amir Khusaro (d. 820/1325).

Hence it is only through the Light of Muhammad that one attains eternal life. Isn't that a kind of celebration for the Light of Muhammad?
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swamidada



Joined: 02 Aug 2020
Posts: 829

PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
There is also no mention of the GPS in the Quran, perhaps that is why so many people have lost their way in their earthly life.


BTW I liked your answer.

But in Quran, there are religious GPS signs in all chapters.

Guide us to the straight path (Siraat e Mustaqeem), the Path of those You have blessed and not of those who gone astray.
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swamidada



Joined: 02 Aug 2020
Posts: 829

PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

Interestingly there is no mention of FISH in water in Quran, Ginan, and old testament!!
The FISH represents the need for the physical manifestation to be present in creation. Hence even when only fish existed as a symbol of creation at its earliest phase of creation, God manifested as FISH. Hence the notion of avtar is the hallmark of Ismailism and is symbolized by FISH.

This does NOT suggest evolution from fish to other forms. Creation of man was not a result of evolution.


Why FISH, why not LION- ASADULLAH as first Avtar.
We are from God, does it not allude that all creation is from Fish as first Avtar!
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swamidada



Joined: 02 Aug 2020
Posts: 829

PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

You wrote 'to celebrate the light of Imamat'. where as following paragraph suggests, it is for the eternal peace of departed soul!!
Isn't that also the essence of all traditions?

The article of Mumtaz Tajdin quotes:

According to Muslim Festivals in India (Paris, 1831, tr. W. Waseem, New Delhi, 1995, pp. 76-77) that the people kindle lamp (chiragh) and recite the following prayer, known as the Fatiha Chiraghan:

“O God, through the merit of the light of the apostolate, our Lord Muhammad, may the lamp that we burn on this holy night, be for the dead a guarantee of the eternal light which we pray to you for. O God of ours! Deign to admit them in the room of unchanging felicity”

Having expressed the above intention, they recite the first and the 102nd chapters of the Koran. This ceremony lasts for three days. There was a popular custom also to send lamps to the mosque, vide I’jaz-i Khusaro (Lucknow, 1876, 4:324) by Amir Khusaro (d. 820/1325).

Hence it is only through the Light of Muhammad that one attains eternal life. Isn't that a kind of celebration for the Light of Muhammad?


The paragraph quoted by me was taken from Ismaili.net. It is the same explanation which Mumtaz has mentioned i.e, it is a prayer for NAJAAT OF DECEASED.
In reply you wrote," Chirag e Roshan is to celebrate the light of Imamat".


“O God, through the merit of the light of the apostolate, our Lord Muhammad, may the lamp that we burn on this holy night, be for the dead a guarantee of the eternal light which we pray to you for. O God of ours! Deign to admit them in the room of unchanging felicity”
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swamidada



Joined: 02 Aug 2020
Posts: 829

PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the 1st century, during the Roman persecution of Christians, the FISH symbol was used by Christians in secret to indicate meeting places and worship. They could be seen on trees, doors or even graves. ... Ichthys definition is rather a symbol of Christian beliefs and faith.

The Ichthys symbol (or "Jesus fish") is a sign typically used to proclaim an affiliation with or affinity for Christianity. The fish was originally adopted by early Christians as a secret symbol, but the many variations known today first appeared in the 1980s

Greeks, Romans, and many other pagans used the fish symbol before Christians. Hence the fish, unlike, say, the cross, attracted little suspicion, making it a perfect secret symbol for persecuted believers. When threatened by Romans in the first centuries after Christ, Christians used the fish mark meeting places and tombs, or to distinguish friends from foes. According to one ancient story, when a Christian met a stranger in the road, the Christian sometimes drew one arc of the simple fish outline in the dirt. If the stranger drew the other arc, both believers knew they were in good company. Current bumper-sticker and business-card uses of the fish hearken back to this practice.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 6274

PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fish of the Christians has nothing to do with the symbol that Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah has eluded in his handwritten affidavit where he talks of the time when there was nothing on earth but fish. It also has nothing to do with the fish that I saw today in the fish market.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 23617

PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

The paragraph quoted by me was taken from Ismaili.net. It is the same explanation which Mumtaz has mentioned i.e, it is a prayer for NAJAAT OF DECEASED.
In reply you wrote," Chirag e Roshan is to celebrate the light of Imamat".


“O God, through the merit of the light of the apostolate, our Lord Muhammad, may the lamp that we burn on this holy night, be for the dead a guarantee of the eternal light which we pray to you for. O God of ours! Deign to admit them in the room of unchanging felicity”
So what is the point you are making?
You are only repeating what I wrote.
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swamidada



Joined: 02 Aug 2020
Posts: 829

PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
The fish of the Christians has nothing to do with the symbol that Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah has eluded in his handwritten affidavit where he talks of the time when there was nothing on earth but fish. It also has nothing to do with the fish that I saw today in the fish market.


Day by day you are getting funnier, it is a good sign, smile.
I did not compared Christian fish with your fish, it is a piece of information. There are 34000 recognized species of fish around the world, some good, some bad, some ugly.
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swamidada



Joined: 02 Aug 2020
Posts: 829

PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

The paragraph quoted by me was taken from Ismaili.net. It is the same explanation which Mumtaz has mentioned i.e, it is a prayer for NAJAAT OF DECEASED.
In reply you wrote," Chirag e Roshan is to celebrate the light of Imamat".


“O God, through the merit of the light of the apostolate, our Lord Muhammad, may the lamp that we burn on this holy night, be for the dead a guarantee of the eternal light which we pray to you for. O God of ours! Deign to admit them in the room of unchanging felicity”
So what is the point you are making?
You are only repeating what I wrote.


I am correcting what you wrote about the Chirag e Roshan ceremony.
You wrote,"The essence of the Chirag ceremony is the celebrate the Light of Imamat".
But according to article on Ismaili.net suggests that the Chirag e Roshan ceremony is for the departed soul and salvation.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 23617

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

I am correcting what you wrote about the Chirag e Roshan ceremony.
You wrote,"The essence of the Chirag ceremony is the celebrate the Light of Imamat".
But according to article on Ismaili.net suggests that the Chirag e Roshan ceremony is for the departed soul and salvation.
The phrase : “O God, through the merit of the light of the apostolate, our Lord Muhammad

What is that if not the celebration of the Light of Imamat?
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swamidada



Joined: 02 Aug 2020
Posts: 829

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

I am correcting what you wrote about the Chirag e Roshan ceremony.
You wrote,"The essence of the Chirag ceremony is the celebrate the Light of Imamat".
But according to article on Ismaili.net suggests that the Chirag e Roshan ceremony is for the departed soul and salvation.
The phrase : “O God, through the merit of the light of the apostolate, our Lord Muhammad

What is that if not the celebration of the Light of Imamat?


The celebration of the light of Imamat we do every day when we recite Dua and on yearly basis is 11th July. Let me once again mention what is on Ismaili.net.

Chiragh-I-Rawshan - An Ismaili Tradition in Central Asia
in Chiragh Rawshan English
bibliography_link: Chiragh-I-Rawshan - An Ismaili Tradition in Central Asia

The word chiragh is derived from the Syriac shrag or shragh,
meaning lamp, and Chiragh-i Rawshan means shining or luminous
lamp, which is one of the oldest surviving Ismaili traditions in the
regions of the Central Asia. It is an assembly (majalis) of the
believers, where a lamp is illumined, which is its hallmark, and the Koranic
verses are chanted for the eternal peace of the departed soul, or for the
prosperity of one who is alive.
It is clearly mentioned, FOR THE ETERNAL PEACE OF THE DEPARTED SOUL...
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 23617

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

It is clearly mentioned, FOR THE ETERNAL PEACE OF THE DEPARTED SOUL...
How is the ETERNAL PEACE achived? Isn't it through the Light of Imamat? Hence aren't we celebrating the Light of Imamat in that respect? There would be no ETERNAL PEACE without the light of Imamat!
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swamidada



Joined: 02 Aug 2020
Posts: 829

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

It is clearly mentioned, FOR THE ETERNAL PEACE OF THE DEPARTED SOUL...
How is the ETERNAL PEACE achived? Isn't it through the Light of Imamat? Hence aren't we celebrating the Light of Imamat in that respect? There would be no ETERNAL PEACE without the light of Imamat!


My argument was about your quote, you wrote, "Chirag e Roshan is to celebrate the light of Imamat". I gave you 2 proofs that Chirag e Roshan is meant for departed soul and not for celebration of the light of Imamat.
Now to justify your claim you replied," there would be no eternal peace without light of Imamat". Your this sentence suggests that you are looking at source through which to pray for soul of deceased. Noor e Imamat is Wasila, zariya, means, through which we pray to Allah for the MUGHFERAT. In our Holy Dua we use the word 'BI HUQQ' for this purpose.
ALLAHUM MUGHFER LANA.... PART 4
ALLAHUMA BI HUQQI MUHAMMADINIL MUSTAFA WA ALIYINIL MURTADHA...
WA BI HUQQI MOULANA WA IMAMINAL HADHIRIL MOUJUD SHAH KARIMIL HUSSAINIR HAMNA WA GHFIR LANA....PART 6
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 23617

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

Your this sentence suggests that you are looking at source through which to pray for soul of deceased. Noor e Imamat is Wasila, zariya, means, through which we pray to Allah for the MUGHFERAT. In our Holy Dua we use the word 'BI HUQQ' for this purpose.
ALLAHUM MUGHFER LANA.... PART 4
ALLAHUMA BI HUQQI MUHAMMADINIL MUSTAFA WA ALIYINIL MURTADHA...
WA BI HUQQI MOULANA WA IMAMINAL HADHIRIL MOUJUD SHAH KARIMIL HUSSAINIR HAMNA WA GHFIR LANA....PART 6
So aren't you confirming what I said! That through the Light of Imamat that the soul attains eternal peace. Hence isn't a moment of attaining eternal peace a moment of celebration of the Light of Imamat?
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swamidada



Joined: 02 Aug 2020
Posts: 829

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

Your this sentence suggests that you are looking at source through which to pray for soul of deceased. Noor e Imamat is Wasila, zariya, means, through which we pray to Allah for the MUGHFERAT. In our Holy Dua we use the word 'BI HUQQ' for this purpose.
ALLAHUM MUGHFER LANA.... PART 4
ALLAHUMA BI HUQQI MUHAMMADINIL MUSTAFA WA ALIYINIL MURTADHA...
WA BI HUQQI MOULANA WA IMAMINAL HADHIRIL MOUJUD SHAH KARIMIL HUSSAINIR HAMNA WA GHFIR LANA....PART 6
So aren't you confirming what I said! That through the Light of Imamat that the soul attains eternal peace. Hence isn't a moment of attaining eternal peace a moment of celebration of the Light of Imamat?


I do not deny that a soul through Noor of Ali, through Noor of Imamat merge with He Who is above all else.
You are skipping my core question about Chirag e Roshan, you wrote,'Chirag e Roshan is to celebrate the Noor of Imamat'. In reply I wrote that aim of Chirag e Roshan is not to celebrate Noor e Imamat but to pray for the deceased soul that Allah forgive his/her sins, give higher rank in heaven, and to merge departed soul with Him.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 23617

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:
In reply I wrote that aim of Chirag e Roshan is not to celebrate Noor e Imamat but to pray for the deceased soul that Allah forgive his/her sins, give higher rank in heaven, and to merge departed soul with Him.
Without the Light of Imamat that cannot be achieved and hence by merely mentioning that through the light of Muhammad one attains salvation you are glorifying Imamat and celebrating it.

When you say: Mr X sends someone to eternal life, aren't you glorifying Mr. X? Aren't you considering him to be great? Aren't you celebrating his greatness by illuminating the occasion with Light.

One could pray without burning oil for whole night if there was no significance of the Light. What does light signify if not Light of Imamat?
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