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Pre-Adam
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:
When Yugs already existed before Adam, then why God came up with NEW idea of Adam? Hence two systems were in place simultaneously.
Yugas are time periods and Adam is a man created in one of them. They are not two systems.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:
I am not challenging wisdom of Holy men.
In my opinion, it was the strategy of Pirs to include Dus Avtars and reincarnation as converting tools to lure Hindu masses. Pirs used Hindu terminologies in Ginans to brain wash them and they were successful in their mission.
The notion of Das Avtaars was used in the court of law to establish the legal basis of Imamat and it's institutions in the modern world. It was not merely a conversion tool to brain wash the murids.

If it were merely a conversion tool, it would not have been recited in our Dua centuries after the conversion!
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

Do you mean we should dump the old generations. They knew not about Dus Avtars even today so we neglect them. Is there any Farman of Imam that Central Asian Ismailis MUST learn about Dus Avtars. Uzbeks, Tajiks, mostly Afghans are poor masses, they can't afford to have computers in their houses. Mostly they are without electricity. It is hard for them to make both ends meet.
Dus Avtar is not part a of Ismaili Tenets.
I did not say that you have to dump older generations. If they have the capacity to learn they should learn. These days facilities and resources are provided by our institutions and hence the affordability should not be a factor.

MHI has said that diversity is a strength which of course implies that all the different traditions are available to all the jamats and that we should share and learn from each other.
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swamidada



Joined: 02 Aug 2020
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:
When Yugs already existed before Adam, then why God came up with NEW idea of Adam? Hence two systems were in place simultaneously.
Yugas are time periods and Adam is a man created in one of them. They are not two systems.


Where you fit Adam in lineage of Dus Avtars. Is Adam induced as Parashurama?
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swamidada



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:
I am not challenging wisdom of Holy men.
In my opinion, it was the strategy of Pirs to include Dus Avtars and reincarnation as converting tools to lure Hindu masses. Pirs used Hindu terminologies in Ginans to brain wash them and they were successful in their mission.

If it were merely a conversion tool, it would not have been recited in our Dua centuries after the conversion!


Where is the original text of Asal Dua given by Pir Sadardin? Who has one? There has been lot of discussions about it. If some one has, why not to post on this Forum.
Why Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah did not include Dus Avtars in New Dua if that is so important?
Why Hazar Imam did not mention it in the Tenets of Ismailism in Preamble?

You have mentioned couple of times on this Forum;

CONCEPTS CHANGE ACCORDING TO CHANGING TIMES, THAT'S WHY IMAM IS PRESENT TO GUIDE US ACCORDINGLY.
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swamidada



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

Do you mean we should dump the old generations. They knew not about Dus Avtars even today so we neglect them. Is there any Farman of Imam that Central Asian Ismailis MUST learn about Dus Avtars. Uzbeks, Tajiks, mostly Afghans are poor masses, they can't afford to have computers in their houses. Mostly they are without electricity. It is hard for them to make both ends meet.
Dus Avtar is not part a of Ismaili Tenets.
I did not say that you have to dump older generations. If they have the capacity to learn they should learn. These days facilities and resources are provided by our institutions and hence the affordability should not be a factor.

MHI has said that diversity is a strength which of course implies that all the different traditions are available to all the jamats and that we should share and learn from each other.


According to me, there is difference in Tenets and Traditions. Tenets are fixed but Traditions can vary in jamaits living in different parts of world.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

Where you fit Adam in lineage of Dus Avtars. Is Adam induced as Parashurama?
The final Adam was born in the beginning of Budh Avtaar. The first Adam could have been created in any Yuga.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

Where is the original text of Asal Dua given by Pir Sadardin? Who has one? There has been lot of discussions about it. If some one has, why not to post on this Forum.
Why Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah did not include Dus Avtars in New Dua if that is so important?
Why Hazar Imam did not mention it in the Tenets of Ismailism in Preamble?

You have mentioned couple of times on this Forum;

CONCEPTS CHANGE ACCORDING TO CHANGING TIMES, THAT'S WHY IMAM IS PRESENT TO GUIDE US ACCORDINGLY.
I have heard the recitation of the Asal Dua by late Alwaez Shamshudin Bandali Haji. It is available although I have lost my copy.

I think the reason that MSMS did not include Das Avtaars in the New Dua is to make our practices understandable to other Muslims as well.

Preamble serves to articulate our faith to others. It is an external document. Hence it would be problematic for other Muslims to understand Islam before Prophet Muhammad. However within our Jamats the notion of Imamat before Hazarat Ali is well established.

The fundamental truths remain the same, although they may be expressed in a different manner depending upon changed circumstances.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

According to me, there is difference in Tenets and Traditions. Tenets are fixed but Traditions can vary in jamaits living in different parts of world.
Nevertheless traditions can be shared across different cultures and languages.
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swamidada



Joined: 02 Aug 2020
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

Where you fit Adam in lineage of Dus Avtars. Is Adam induced as Parashurama?
The final Adam was born in the beginning of Budh Avtaar. The first Adam could have been created in any Yuga.


Mai(n) tenu ki samjhawa(n) ji..
Question is about first Adam and not final Adam.
Let me try in this way. WHO WAS CREATED FIRST MUCHH OR ADAM?
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swamidada



Joined: 02 Aug 2020
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

According to me, there is difference in Tenets and Traditions. Tenets are fixed but Traditions can vary in jamaits living in different parts of world.
Nevertheless traditions can be shared across different cultures and languages.


So you admit Tenets are fixed and applied unanimously for all Ismailis.
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swamidada



Joined: 02 Aug 2020
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

Where is the original text of Asal Dua given by Pir Sadardin? Who has one? There has been lot of discussions about it. If some one has, why not to post on this Forum.
Why Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah did not include Dus Avtars in New Dua if that is so important?
Why Hazar Imam did not mention it in the Tenets of Ismailism in Preamble?

You have mentioned couple of times on this Forum;

CONCEPTS CHANGE ACCORDING TO CHANGING TIMES, THAT'S WHY IMAM IS PRESENT TO GUIDE US ACCORDINGLY.
I have heard the recitation of the Asal Dua by late Alwaez Shamshudin Bandali Haji. It is available although I have lost my copy.

I think the reason that MSMS did not include Das Avtaars in the New Dua is to make our practices understandable to other Muslims as well.


The Dua which you heard I did also on cassettes, but that Dua is of 30's and 40's. In 1950 MSMS made some changes in Dua and in 1956 came new Dua in Arabic. I am asking for the original Dua prescribed or written by Pir Sadardin himself. That original text (which is called asal Dua) is not available no where!!!

Dus Avtar is not included in our Dua, the reason is, it is not part of our Tenets.
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swamidada



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

Where is the original text of Asal Dua given by Pir Sadardin? Who has one? There has been lot of discussions about it. If some one has, why not to post on this Forum.
Why Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah did not include Dus Avtars in New Dua if that is so important?
Why Hazar Imam did not mention it in the Tenets of Ismailism in Preamble?

You have mentioned couple of times on this Forum;

CONCEPTS CHANGE ACCORDING TO CHANGING TIMES, THAT'S WHY IMAM IS PRESENT TO GUIDE US ACCORDINGLY.


Preamble serves to articulate our faith to others. It is an external document. Hence it would be problematic for other Muslims to understand Islam before Prophet Muhammad. However within our Jamats the notion of Imamat before Hazarat Ali is well established.


Preamble is meant for Ismailis that's why it was ordered by Hazar Imam to explain Tenets of Ismailism to all jamaits through out world. If it was meant for non Ismailis then should have published in news papers and advertised on TV. I consider it conspiracy that after 1986 Preamble was never explained to jamaits or put on JK notice boards nor printed and distributed.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

So you admit Tenets are fixed and applied unanimously for all Ismailis.
Tenets articulate the Zaheri aspect of our faith. The traditions on the other hand articulate the Batini aspects. These vary based on historical context.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

Dus Avtar is not included in our Dua, the reason is, it is not part of our Tenets.
It is not part of our tenets, nevertheless it is part of our wonderful tradition.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

Preamble is meant for Ismailis that's why it was ordered by Hazar Imam to explain Tenets of Ismailism to all jamaits through out world. If it was meant for non Ismailis then should have published in news papers and advertised on TV. I consider it conspiracy that after 1986 Preamble was never explained to jamaits or put on JK notice boards nor printed and distributed.
Of course the tenets and the constitution in general are meant for the general governance of our institutions. However they are also available to non-Ismailis who are interested in our community and its institutions.
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swamidada



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

So you admit Tenets are fixed and applied unanimously for all Ismailis.
Tenets articulate the Zaheri aspect of our faith. The traditions on the other hand articulate the Batini aspects. These vary based on historical context.


Is Chirag e Roshan tradition or a part of Tenet? Tenets are basics in any religion.
Zahir is roshan, bright, visible but batin is in darkness, not visible.
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swamidada



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

Dus Avtar is not included in our Dua, the reason is, it is not part of our Tenets.
It is not part of our tenets, nevertheless it is part of our wonderful tradition.


If some one disobey Tenet it is sin like Tawheed, but if some one do not follow tradition it is not a sin like Chirag e Roshan.
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swamidada



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

Preamble is meant for Ismailis that's why it was ordered by Hazar Imam to explain Tenets of Ismailism to all jamaits through out world. If it was meant for non Ismailis then should have published in news papers and advertised on TV. I consider it conspiracy that after 1986 Preamble was never explained to jamaits or put on JK notice boards nor printed and distributed.
Of course the tenets and the constitution in general are meant for the general governance of our institutions. However they are also available to non-Ismailis who are interested in our community and its institutions.


Tenets are the sacred rules which every Ismaili has to follow. Regarding non Ismailis now a a days every thing is on internet still they don't trust our beliefs!
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

Is Chirag e Roshan tradition or a part of Tenet? Tenets are basics in any religion.
Zahir is roshan, bright, visible but batin is in darkness, not visible.
Chirag e Roshan is part of the of Ismailis of Nasr Khuraw tradition. Tenets are the clothes that we wear as a way of expressing ourselves to the world. The traditions are the body and the substance of our faith.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

Mai(n) tenu ki samjhawa(n) ji..
Question is about first Adam and not final Adam.
Let me try in this way. WHO WAS CREATED FIRST MUCHH OR ADAM?
MSMS made a statement at the Mission Conference 1945:

"Number two: In 1905, Juma Bhagat, one of our great missionaries who had rendered great services to me, and other very very pious Ismailis, came to me---that is exactly forty years ago---and said that in the Dua the word which referred to 'fish' should be withdrawn. I said to them: Do you intend to drop one of the foundations of the Faith?
When there was nothing but fish on earth, God stood as witness and you must have no doubt to that kind of witness from above. And of course they understood and dropped it.

Hence fish was in existence before the creation of man.
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swamidada



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

Is Chirag e Roshan tradition or a part of Tenet? Tenets are basics in any religion.
Zahir is roshan, bright, visible but batin is in darkness, not visible.
Tenets are the clothes that we wear as a way of expressing ourselves to the world. The traditions are the body and the substance of our faith.


Good acrobat of words.
How come Chirag e Roshan be substance of our faith when majority of Ismailis do not follow that tradition.
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swamidada



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

Mai(n) tenu ki samjhawa(n) ji..
Question is about first Adam and not final Adam.
Let me try in this way. WHO WAS CREATED FIRST MUCHH OR ADAM?
MSMS made a statement at the Mission Conference 1945:

"Number two: In 1905, Juma Bhagat, one of our great missionaries who had rendered great services to me, and other very very pious Ismailis, came to me---that is exactly forty years ago---and said that in the Dua the word which referred to 'fish' should be withdrawn. I said to them: Do you intend to drop one of the foundations of the Faith?
When there was nothing but fish on earth, God stood as witness and you must have no doubt to that kind of witness from above. And of course they understood and dropped it.Hence fish was in existence before the creation of man.


In Ismaili faith what is the significance of FISH? Can you explain in what terms Fish is one of the foundations of our faith?
It means first creation of God is FISH and not ADAM in this world.
In sequence Adam as a human being is at stage 5th/6th. First Muchh, then Kuchh, followed by Korumbh, Varaha and ......
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Admin



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When Farman comes from Above and God is witness, we can not have doubts, whether we understand the meaning or not.

What Imam is saying is that there was a time when there was nothing on earth but Fish (no mankind) and at that time God stood as witness.

This is compatible with Quran saying that in the beginning His Throne of God was over the waters.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

Good acrobat of words.
How come Chirag e Roshan be substance of our faith when majority of Ismailis do not follow that tradition.
The essence of the Chirag ceremony is the celebrate the Light of Imamat, which is true of all traditions. The expressions may vary but the essence are the same.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:

This is compatible with Quran saying that in the beginning His Throne of God was over the waters.
Khat Niranjan verses: 28 -30

pahelaa rachyaa jamin aasmaan
At first he created the earth and the heavens

Pahele aasmaane utaaryaa Noor
At the first heaven, he brought down the Noor

tyaare sirajyaa chando ne sur
then he created the moon and the sun

Bije aasmaane utaaryaa kavan
At the second heaven he brought down the Ginan (Kavan means poem)

tyaare sirajyaa paanni ne pavan
Thereby he created water and wind
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swamidada



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
Admin wrote:

This is compatible with Quran saying that in the beginning His Throne of God was over the waters.
Khat Niranjan verses: 28 -30

pahelaa rachyaa jamin aasmaan
At first he created the earth and the heavens

Pahele aasmaane utaaryaa Noor
At the first heaven, he brought down the Noor

tyaare sirajyaa chando ne sur
then he created the moon and the sun

Bije aasmaane utaaryaa kavan
At the second heaven he brought down the Ginan (Kavan means poem)

tyaare sirajyaa paanni ne pavan
Thereby he created water and wind


Beside Quran the above Ginan parts also resemble with the Genesis chapter one of old testament;

THE BOOK OF GENESIS

Chapter 1

[1:1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth,
[1:2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
[1:3] Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
[1:4] And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
[1:5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
[1:6] And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
[1:7] So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
[1:8] God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.
[1:9] And God said, "Let the waters under the sky be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so.
[1:10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
[1:11] Then God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation: plants yielding seed, and fruit trees of every kind on earth that bear fruit with the seed in it." And it was so.

Interestingly there is no mention of FISH in water in Quran, Ginan, and old testament!!
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swamidada



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

Good acrobat of words.
How come Chirag e Roshan be substance of our faith when majority of Ismailis do not follow that tradition.
The essence of the Chirag ceremony is the celebrate the Light of Imamat, which is true of all traditions.


You wrote 'to celebrate the light of Imamat'. where as following paragraph suggests, it is for the eternal peace of departed soul!!

Chiragh-I-Rawshan - An Ismaili Tradition in Central Asia
in Chiragh Rawshan English
bibliography_link: Chiragh-I-Rawshan - An Ismaili Tradition in Central Asia
The
word chiragh is derived from the Syriac shrag or shragh,
meaning lamp, and Chiragh-i Rawshan means shining or luminous
lamp, which is one of the oldest surviving Ismaili traditions in the
regions of the Central Asia. It is an assembly (majalis) of the
believers, where a lamp is illumined, which is its hallmark, and the Koranic
verses are chanted for the eternal peace of the departed soul, or for the
prosperity of one who is alive.

Adopted from Ismaili.net
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swamidada



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:


What Imam is saying is that there was a time when there was nothing on earth but Fish (no mankind) and at that time God stood as witness.

This is compatible with Quran saying that in the beginning His Throne of God was over the waters.


In Quran there is no mention of FISH swimming in water next to Throne.

I am curious want to understand, "Why Imam used the word FISH, there should be some signification in relation to Ismailism".

In a Farman MSMS said, read my Farmans seriously, there is deep meaning and ponder on them.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is also no mention of the GPS in the Quran, perhaps that is why so many people have lost their way in their earthly life.
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