www.ismaili.net

I have heard from many people that it is not allowed to talk about Ismailism with non ismailis.Do any one know the reason.
Another question is it safe to discuss about ismailism in this forum since nonismailis can read messages.

star_munir wrote:I have heard from many people that it is not allowed to talk about Ismailism with non ismailis.Do any one know the reason.
Another question is it safe to discuss about ismailism in this forum since nonismailis can read messages.

You have heard from many people this and that. Now what do the farmans mention? Please read and understand the farmans. Ismailism does not mean what many people say but ismailism means what Allah/Mawlana Hazar Imam say and obeying him.

Also, do you mean the pir/s converted non-ismailis into ismailis without talking about Ismailism or do you mean sultan mohd shah converted non-ismailis into ismailis without talking with them. If they have talked then how did they talked - please know about this - it will be interesting.

In such a way it is safe, safe and safe all the way - that is if you want to discuss.

In the Ismaili constitution I remember reading something about that.

I think the section was on something like punishments that an Ismaili murid can possibly be subjected to and for what.

Let us all refer to this extremely Important document first and then go on.

Ya Aly Madad

shamsu

shamsu wrote:In the Ismaili constitution I remember reading something about that.

I think the section was on something like punishments that an Ismaili murid can possibly be subjected to and for what.

Let us all refer to this extremely Important document first and then go on.

Ya Aly Madad

shamsu

Please quote from the Ismaili Constitution giving proper reference so that this can be discussed.

I am sure that the Pir and mawlana hazar imam cannot be wrong when they talked about ismailism to non-ismailis. In the memoirs of agakhan also ismailism is discussed.

i think that since the events of 9/11 i feel that the western society needs to understand more about Islam and the divisions ie about the sunnis and shias and talking with people I explain the basic differences, in general terms ie that we do not have clerics but one absolute Imam who guides us, that anyone can volunteer to recite prayers in our mosques and that we concentrate on things like ensuring we and our children have good education, to help with good causes ie charity and humanitarian work where possible etc. I was forced to do this as I was told by someone very ignorant that "all muslims are the same" after the dreadful events in the States.
Hazar Imam is very right when He says that the western world needs to educate themselves regarding the understanding of Islam.
I use my discretion and do not say anything about the esoteric part of our religion.

Hi. I haven't heard anything about not talking to non-ismailies about our religion. In fact, I've always thought it was encouraged- not really in the sense to preach others, but just to educate them. In the recent Houston Deedar, Hazir Imam said that we are supposed to be ambassadors of Islam, linking our relgion to others- the only way we can do this is by talking to non-ismailies, and telling them what Islam is really about, and not necessarily how it's portrayed in the media, etc.

nargisk3 u r right.

The constitution was written as it was written but our duty is to obey our Imam and if he has asked us to be ambasadors for the ummah then it is our duty to do as he has asked us to.

Ya Aly Madad

Shams

We don't because we're not really a part of normative Islam (i.e. Ismailis aren't really Muslim, by the accepted definition), so in order to prevent "persecution" and the like, it would seem to make sense...

At least: "that's my opinion."

Wilco if you are an Ismaili you will know that only Ismailies do baiyat on the hands of Allah and submit to Allah thereby.

All others dont even have a clue about this essential aspect of becoming Muslim which is Baiyat of Allah through his Rasul and after Rasul the submission to the ULIL AMR who in the current time is Shah Karim Al- Hussayni Hazir Imam.


Read the Ayats in the Dua and everything will be clear.


Shams

shamsu wrote:Wilco if you are an Ismaili you will know that only Ismailies do baiyat on the hands of Allah and submit to Allah thereby.

All others dont even have a clue about this essential aspect of becoming Muslim which is Baiyat of Allah through his Rasul and after Rasul the submission to the ULIL AMR who in the current time is Shah Karim Al- Hussayni Hazir Imam.


Read the Ayats in the Dua and everything will be clear.


Shams

My dear friend,

Had you read my post, you would see that I did not address the issue you so callously brought up. I merely said we weren't a part of "normative Islam"; now, if you are literate, which you seem to be, you would be aware of the definition of "normative Islam" in religious contexts. To especially bring teh case in point, notice how a "normal" Muslim does not pledge allegiance to the Imam.

wilco

Ya Aly Madad,

The definition of Muslim is he who submits to the will of Allah.

I think when you say ismailies are not muslim your statement sounds nonsensical.

Ismailies are the only ones who have any idea about how to submit to the will of Allah which is to do Farmanbardari of Imame Zaman.

and normative Islam
I do not know anything about that.

all I know is
Main Entry: nor·ma·tive
Pronunciation: 'nor-m&-tiv
Function: adjective
Etymology: French normatif, from norme norm, from Latin norma
Date: 1878
1 : of, relating to, or determining norms or standards <normative tests>
2 : conforming to or based on norms <normative behavior> <normative judgments>
3 : prescribing norms <normative rules of ethics> <normative grammar>
- nor·ma·tive·ly adverb
- nor·ma·tive·ness noun

Shams

If you go by a dictionary, you get nowhere.

This is why I've never posted on this message board. People try to argue when they do not understand what they're arguing about.

Ask any religious scholar what is meant by a normative branch of an organizational religion, and you'll understand.

Also, Ismailism is the source of the Druze, who have officially broken from Islam. A lot of current Ismailis are suffering through what was the defining moment for the Druze -- believing their Imam is, in fact, a divinity. With the Druze, it was al-Hakim who, of course, didn't help by offering protection to the man that proclaimed him God.

This is why we don't discuss Ismailism outside. Or, at least, this is why I don't, aside from the fact that I don't believe the Imam to be infallible or a divinity.

Wilco said that
We don't because we're not really a part of normative Islam (i.e. Ismailis aren't really Muslim, by the accepted definition), so in order to prevent "persecution" and the like, it would seem to make sense...

At least: "that's my opinion."


THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN ONE GOD AND FINALITY OF PROPHETHOOD OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD [PBUH] ARE MUSLIMS ACCORDING TO KALIMA OF ISLAM AND ISMAILIS BELIEVE IN THAT SO ISMAILIS ARE MUSLIMS BY ACCEPTED DEFINITION.

I THINK YOU WANT TO SAY THAT ISMAILIS ARE DIFFERENT FROM OTHER MUSLIMS BUT THIS THING YOU SAID IN IMPROPER WAY SO SHAMSU HAVE SAID THAT YOU. ISMAILISM IS PURE ISLAM ISMAILIS ARE DIFFERENT FROM OTHER MUSLIMS IN SENSE THAT THEIR IMAM IS ALIVE AND STILL PRESENT AND WILL ALWAYS PRESENT IN THIS WORLD TO GUIDE THEM .

YOU FURTHAR WROTE THAT

Also, Ismailism is the source of the Druze, who have officially broken from Islam. A lot of current Ismailis are suffering through what was the defining moment for the Druze -- believing their Imam is, in fact, a divinity. With the Druze, it was al-Hakim who, of course, didn't help by offering protection to the man that proclaimed him God.


I THINK YOU HAVE READ THIS FROM ANTI ISMAILI BOOK OR WEBSITE.

FIRST OF ALL DRUZE ARE MUSLIMS. THEY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD ALLAH AND BELIEVE HAZRAT MUHAMMAD [PBUH] AS LAST PROPHET. THEY CALL THEMSELVES AS MUSLIMS.
ONE OF THE WORST HABBIT OF MUSLIMS IS THAT THEY CALL OTHER SECT KAFFIR SOME SUNNI SAYS SHIA ARE KAFIR SOME SAYS ISMAILIS ARE KAFIR SOME SAYS SUNNIS ARE KAFIR....ETC
THERE IS A LOT OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE BELIEF AND RELIGION OF DRUZE AND ISMAILISM AND THIS IS EXPLAINED IN HISTORY BOOK NOORUM MUBIN.

Ya Ali madad.

With all due respect, the Druze are no longer Muslim.

Islam is the source of two religions that now are not a part of Islam: the Druze religion and Baha'ism. Interestingly, both are offshoots of Shia Islam.

The Druze deify Imam al-Hakim bi Amr Allah, whom they believe to be a manifestation of God. (Baha'is believe that the prophets they believe in were manifestations of God.) In addition to that, they have a number of beliefs and rituals that they inherited from the pre-Islamic religions of the time.

Although the Druze started as a Muslim sect or, to be more exact, as an Ismaili sect, they soon evolved to become a religion in their own right.

Historically, objectively, and academically speaking, the Druze are no longer a part of Islam, whether normative or on the fringe. I am not aware of Ismailism teaching something different, but I may be wrong on this. The information about the Druze can be had from Farhad Daftary's "The Ismailis," which, by the way, is endorsed by the IIS.

Maula hafiz,
Omayr

I THINK THE DICTIONARY HELPS WHEN THERE ARE CONFUSIONS ABOUT THE DEFINITIONS OF TERMS.

DIVINITY REFERS TO GOD AND GOD IS DEFINED IN THE DICTIONARY IN THE FOLLOWING WAYS.

LOOKING AT IT YOU REALIZE THAT IN OUR DUA AND TASBIHS, WE DO PRAY TO THE IMAM AND WE DO BELIEVE HIM TO BE INFALLIBLE WITH RESPECT TO THE UNDERLINED DEFINITIONS OF THOSE TERMS



Main Entry: [1]god
Pronunciation: 'gäd also 'god
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German got god
Date: before 12th century
1 : capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe b : Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3 : a person or thing of supreme value
4 : a powerful ruler

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Main Entry: in·fal·li·ble
Pronunciation: (")in-'fa-l&-b&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin infallibilis, from Latin in- + Late Latin fallibilis fallible
Date: 15th century
1 : incapable of error : UNERRING <an infallible memory>
2 : not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint : CERTAIN <an infallible remedy>
3 : incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith or morals
- in·fal·li·bil·i·ty /-"fa-l&-'bi-l&-tE/ noun
- in·fal·li·bly /-'fa-l&-blE/ adverb

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ONiazi I told that Druze are muslims because it is in Noorum Mubin that it is one of those sect which believe their Imam as God.
It is also written that they claim that they are true muslims as they believe in concept of Tauheed [unicity of Allah]

But there is much difference between Druze and Ismailis for examle they believe that Imam Hakim was last Imam and He will come back in world again but ismailis do not believe in that similarly they believe Hamza as best of the creation of God or his status is above all creatures but ismailis do not believe in that.

To say that the Imam is Divine or a Divine Incarnation means to say that Imam's flesh and blood is divine. Divine Incarnation means that God has CHANGED his eternal state and His Essence into a physical body. If this were to happen, God would CEASE to be God because He has become a man, and therefore, this means the death of God.

This is NOT the teachings of Ismailism.
Christians believe in Incarntion of God (hulul). Ismailies believe in the Epiphany of God (mazhar). There is a grave difference.

Ismailism believes that God includes yet encompasses the whole Creation. The Universe is an appearance of God, but a diliuted one.

Similarly, on the human level, which is the highest level of creation, the Imam is merely the APPEARANCE, EPIPHANY, or SIGN of God. This is because as far as humans can perceive, they can only perceive a physical body. Therefore, God must APPEAR to them in that form, but this does not mean that God's form is human form.

The humanity of the Imam is only a veil. There is no divinity attributes to the humanity or the actual person of the Imam. Rather, his physical existence is a veil, or a cover, for the Divine Light of Allah - equated with the Creative Logos or the Universal Intellect (Aql i kull).

We pray in the name of Imam, because we are invoking the Light of God, the Aql i kull. This is the only Being which can be worshipped, because Allah 's Essence is unfathomable and beyond all comprehensible.

kandani wrote:To say that the Imam is Divine or a Divine Incarnation means to say that Imam's flesh and blood is divine. Divine Incarnation means that God has CHANGED his eternal state and His Essence into a physical body. If this were to happen, God would CEASE to be God because He has become a man, and therefore, this means the death of God.

This is NOT the teachings of Ismailism.
Christians believe in Incarntion of God (hulul). Ismailies believe in the Epiphany of God (mazhar). There is a grave difference.

Ismailism believes that God includes yet encompasses the whole Creation. The Universe is an appearance of God, but a diliuted one.

Similarly, on the human level, which is the highest level of creation, the Imam is merely the APPEARANCE, EPIPHANY, or SIGN of God. This is because as far as humans can perceive, they can only perceive a physical body. Therefore, God must APPEAR to them in that form, but this does not mean that God's form is human form.

The humanity of the Imam is only a veil. There is no divinity attributes to the humanity or the actual person of the Imam. Rather, his physical existence is a veil, or a cover, for the Divine Light of Allah - equated with the Creative Logos or the Universal Intellect (Aql i kull).

We pray in the name of Imam, because we are invoking the Light of God, the Aql i kull. This is the only Being which can be worshipped, because Allah 's Essence is unfathomable and beyond all comprehensible.

lets look at the word incarnation and proceed from there

Main Entry: in·car·na·tion
Pronunciation: "in-(")kär-'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 a (1) : the embodiment of a deity or spirit in some earthly form (2) : capitalized : the union of divinity with humanity in Jesus Christ b : a concrete or actual form of a quality or concept; especially : a person showing a trait or typical character to a marked degree <she is the incarnation of goodness>
2 : the act of incarnating : the state of being incarnate
3 : a particular physical form or state : VERSION <in another incarnation he might be a first vice-president —Walter Teller> <TV and movie incarnations of the story>

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Ya Aly Madad kandani.

When I use the word Imam I am not talking about the body of Imam at all.
Ismailism has never in its entire history been a faith that looks at the body.

Imam SMS "..je koi ruhani ishk raakhe cche taej khuda parast cche, badan ne jonar buth parast cche" KIM I page 308 farman 144

2nd Part of our Dua "Wa qul shain asaina hu fe Imame MUBEEN"
meaning ALL THINGS ARE ENCOMPASSED WITHIN THE MANIFEST IMAM"

Please note the word ilm or aql is not mentioned at all. The straight forward meaning is in front of you.

Do you see the manifest Imam, the Imame Mubeen as the physical body of Mowlana Hazar Imam?

When mowla says "When you think of me I am with you..." do you think he means it physically?

Can water vapor manifest into a drop of water?

Does that mean there is no water vapor anymore at all?

The word mazhar comes from the word Zahir, that which can be percieved through the 5 senses.

The word mubeen comes from the word ain which means eyes. Than which can be seen with the eyes. Imame Mubeen means that Imam who can be seen with the eyes.

The universe is a creation of God . An example could be similiar to a poem being a creation of a Poet. To say the poem is a diluted appearance of the poet would be unfair to both the poem and the poet.

can you see the poet in the poem? if you can then you are looking with the eye of knowledge. The eye that knows, your spiritual eye.
In the Surae Nur article which Imam is supposed to have commented upon, the Spirit is the one that knows.

When you touch some thing you BELIEVE it exists. But your knowledge of physics tells you that what you are touching is a form of energy and when you get down to it eventually there is nothing. whatever we percieve with our physical senses is an illusion. so when you open your spiritual eyes i.e. the eyes of knowledge, you KNOW that there is nothing. whereas you BELIEVE, you THINK there is something.

So thinking comes first then comes believing and finally knowing.

The intellect, Aql, is involved in the entire process.

Thus Ilmul yakeen, Ainul yakeen and Haqul yakeen.

Just because Allah has manifested in the Imam doesnt mean he has ceased to exist as Allah. That is a very one dimensional way to understand Allah.

When we say Allahu Ahad. that mean Allah is the One. If he is the one and you understand it. If you understand that there is no place where allah isn't then Imam SMS's Farman comes to life "jo tame pak aankho thi josho toe darek ma khudawantala nu nur josho" page 290 KIM I

the concept that when Allah manifests in Imam he ceases to be Allah is flawed as it is conceived without the understanding of the omnipresence of Allah.

Do you know what makes Humans the highest creation of Allah. It is the intellect. So let us use the eye of our intellect, instead of saying humans can only percieve the body (which by the way animals can too).

Allah has himself stated in hadith-e-khudsi about becoming the hand of the momin and the eye of the momin and the legs of the momin....

Yes Allahs form is human but in the sense of that which makes Humans the highest creation which is the intellect.

Imam SMS "Darek insaan ni Aql nu muud imam ni aql cche" meaning the root of every mans intellect is Imams Intellect.

Humanity is humanity due to the prescence of the intellect in man otherwise man is just another mammal.

kandani at first it may appear as tho we are both talking about the same thing but please read you post again in an objective manner and then read mine.

I have tried to address certain unconscious presumptions I percieved with the eye of my intellect in your post.

At first you will feel like responding right away but wait for a day or two and keep reflecting upon the posts (both yours and mine) let the seed germinate . Lets see what comes up then.

Shams

I think mazhar,avtar,incarnation,manifestation are almost same in meaning.

FOR AN ISMAILI THEY ALL MEAN THE IMAM


AVATAAR=TARANHAAR, JO JEEVE NE TAARVA MAATE PAIDA THAIYO CCHE.

MAZHAR=THE LOCUS FROM WHERE SOMETHING PRESENTS INTO THE PHYSICAL WORLD. or THE MATERIALIZATION OF SOMETHING NON MATERIAL.


Main Entry: man·i·fes·ta·tion
Pronunciation: "ma-n&-f&-'stA-sh&n, -"fe-'stA-
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
1 a : the act, process, or an instance of manifesting b : something that manifests or is manifest c : one of the forms in which an individual is manifested d : an occult phenomenon; specifically : MATERIALIZATION
2 : a public demonstration of power and purpose

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Main Entry: ma·te·ri·al·i·za·tion
Pronunciation: m&-"tir-E-&-l&-'zA-sh&n
Function: noun
Date: 1843
1 : the action of materializing or becoming materialized
2 : something that has been materialized; especially : APPARITION

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I just happen to run into Missionary Mohammedali Bhimani and he mentioned this Ginan Kadi which says it better than anything I could ever say.

With reference to my earlier post about "Wa qul shain asaina hu fe Imame Mubeen"

"Aakash te Shah nu Mastak (Forehead) ane Pataal te Shah na Pai (Feet)"

In the Houston Ismaili Center Opening Mowla Bapa said "Many of you may be surprised by the amount of time I have devoted to talking about architecture on this occasion. Those familiar with my understanding of the importance of architecture in the teachings of Islam and Islamic history will not have the same reaction. Islam does not deal in dichotomies but in all encompassing unity. Spirit and body are one, man and nature are one. What is more, man is answerable to God for what man has created. Since all that we see and do resonates on the faith, the aesthetics of the environments we build and the quality of the interactions that take place within them reverberate on our spiritual lives. As the leader of a Muslim community, and particularly one that now resides in twenty-five countries on four continents, the physical representation of Islamic values is particularly important to me. It should reflect who we are in terms of our beliefs, our cultural heritage and our relation to the needs and contexts in which we live in today’s world."


Now if we look at the Imam and say his spirit and body are different then it goes against the Imams word doesn't it.


See Harfee also has a part in it about this.

It may seem like I am presenting conflicting references but as Imam SMS said in his farman. I forget the exact farman-I read it on Garden Karachi JK Farman board 1st week of December 2003. My understanding of the farman was that through reflecting upon conflicting farmans we can enlighten our intellect/iman.


Just writing what I have come across in the last few days.


Hope someone else can contribute

shams

Would love to

yam Shamsu,

Regarding the quote on matter and spirit, i think the quote does not fit the context of the subject we are discussing.

We have to make a distinction between the physical body (nasut) of the Living Imam, and the Light of Allah (Primal Intelligence - Aql i Kull) which is the essence of the Living Imam.

To say there is no difference between the two means that when the body dies, the Intelligence dies with it, and that is incorrect.

I do not believe you can say that the body of the Imam is the Light, or that the Light has Incarnated as a physical body. This makes the body and the Nur one complete being, and this is the doctrine of Christians Incarnation not Ismaili Epiphany.


I think we need to reflect on the meanig of Avatar, Mazhar, Incarnation, and Manifestation. In my view...

Mazhar and Manifestation signify the same meaning, an appearance of something. Imam as defined himself as the Mazhar of Allah.

Incarnation means that something takes physical form, in this context, human flesh. Sultan Muhammad Shah declared that Ismailes do not submit to the view that God can "become" or "Incarnate" in flesh. See Memoirs.

Avatar means divinely descended. ie: something from on-high descends to the lower realm, (ie: the physical world).

For Christians, Incarnation means that God the Son actually changed his state of being, and changed from spirit to flesh. To them, the Son of God exists as a man right now, although he is sitting in the heavens.

For Hindus, the Lord Vishnu descended from the spiritual world into the physical world. That is, Lord Vishno took numerous Avatars in this world.

For myself, the Imam is the Mazhar/Manifestation/Appearance of the Light of God. Note, to manifest or appear, the Divine must appear in a limited or relative form. This appearance implies that the Nur of Allah has NOT undergone any change in form. It exists in the spirtual world, and this Mazhar or Appearance in the physical world is inherent to the Creation.

kandani

how do you understand Mowla Bapa's statement about spirit and body?

Shams

I think Mowla is saying that spirit and body should be one in purpose. I think we are on this earth to get to a state where our body and our spirit are in complete unity. That is, we must follow the guidance of our spirit rather than follow our carnal desires.

The Imam, whose spirit exists at the level of the Aql i-kull, has acheived this unity of his physical body and his Spirit of Allah. THis renders the Imam immunized from all sin, and gives him impeccability. There is no distinction between the Primal Will of Allah and the individual will of the earthly Imam.

Why should we not be aloud to discuss our religion with other muslims. I am not saying that we should tell them why we do what we do in jamat khane but when another Muslim is talking to you and is asking you questions about our faith then you should be able to answer him/her. What will you do when an "outsider" (non-ismaili) comes up to you and stats condemming your interpretation will you just sit there and be quiet or will you fight back ? So I do not believe that it is right to say that we should not discuss ismailism with other Muslims.

Just My Views PM or Email if you have any responses

aminL wrote:Why should we not be aloud to discuss our religion with other muslims. I am not saying that we should tell them why we do what we do in jamat khane but when another Muslim is talking to you and is asking you questions about our faith then you should be able to answer him/her. What will you do when an "outsider" (non-ismaili) comes up to you and stats condemming your interpretation will you just sit there and be quiet or will you fight back ? So I do not believe that it is right to say that we should not discuss ismailism with other Muslims.

Just My Views PM or Email if you have any responses

JAB DARYA MAIY LOG DOOB RAHE HO TUB JO KINARE (SAHIL) KAIY KARIB HO GA OOSAIY PEHLAIY BACHAYA JAI GA. Try to save your fellow brother first.

KUTTAIY BHONKNE KE LIYAIY HOTAIY HAIN, KUTTAIY JO HOOE. RASTEY KE KUTTON KI PERVA NAHI KERTAIY WERNA MANZIL NAHI MILTI.

I see no reason why we should not be able to articulate our faith to others so long as we remain within the parameters stated by MHI in his farman : "Remember that which is Zaher is Zaher and that which is Batin is Batin" (Syria Farman). What this imples is that there are aspects about our faith that are esoteric and they cannot be articulated in an exoteric context. For example, we cannot make a statement publicly that MHI is GOD but in an esoteric context i.e. in JK we could say that. Publicly we would say that he is the interpreter of our faith or he is the Mazhar. So long as we are aware of this difference, I see no reason why we should not discuss our faith with others. After all we are not living in Taqiyyah.