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Facing Kaba'a
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arzimood



Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:55 am    Post subject: Facing Kaba'a Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad!
I wanted to know that do we face the Kaba'a when offering prayers? if anyone could help me out with this.
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unnalhaq



Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:32 am    Post subject: Re: Facing Kaba'a Reply with quote

arzimood wrote:
Ya Ali Madad!
I wanted to know that do we face the Kaba'a when offering prayers? if anyone could help me out with this.

I think the shift has started to Kaba. You might have to do some reading and digging but here is the like to the Forum where I have shared some info (Elders of the Jamat versus Pluralism):
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=730&sid=c067b646c197d3526521f0964c405d22
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20955

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The following anecdote quoted by Nagib in another discussion, says it all.

When I went to Karachi in 1981, I was told the following anecdote:

Mowlana Shah Karim visited the Sulan Muhammad Shah Takri in Karachi with some leaders. From the top, he asked them where is the Qaba? The leaders started looking east and west, searching for direction but could not reply.

One of the caretaker [he was from Hunza] was summoned and he was asked the same question. I felt at the feet of Hazar Imam and kissed-it. Crying loudly, he said Khudawind, here is the Qaba. Hazar Imam said, you are right.

Nagib
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unnalhaq



Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
The following anecdote quoted by Nagib in another discussion, says it all.

When I went to Karachi in 1981, I was told the following anecdote:

Mowlana Shah Karim visited the Sulan Muhammad Shah Takri in Karachi with some leaders. From the top, he asked them where is the Qaba? The leaders started looking east and west, searching for direction but could not reply.

One of the caretaker [he was from Hunza] was summoned and he was asked the same question. I felt at the feet of Hazar Imam and kissed-it. Crying loudly, he said Khudawind, here is the Qaba. Hazar Imam said, you are right.

Nagib


But what does it have to do with:
arzimood wrote:
Ya Ali Madad!
I wanted to know that do we face the Kaba'a when offering prayers? if anyone could help me out with this.


My question is whether this revised curriculum being followed.[/quote]
You may think it has everything to do with it but you are wrong. What arzimood was asking is very specific and the your answer just changes topic that is very typical of people here (I am guilty of that too but I am working on it)!
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20955

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

unnalhaq wrote:
But what does it have to do with:
arzimood wrote:
Ya Ali Madad!
I wanted to know that do we face the Kaba'a when offering prayers? if anyone could help me out with this.


My question is whether this revised curriculum being followed.
You may think it has everything to do with it but you are wrong. What arzimood was asking is very specific and the your answer just changes topic that is very typical of people here (I am guilty of that too but I am working on it)!
I think once you realise the real Kaba in our tradition as alluded to by MHI in the anaecdote, it does solve the problem.
On matters of faith MHI normally makes Farmans. I have not heard a Farman stating the direction to face when praying.

Our Ginanic tradition states that the Kaba is our heart. That is where we should focus our attention in prayer.

In my opinion unless there is a Farman which specifically states the direction, we should carry on as normal.
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unnalhaq



Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
I think once you realise the real Kaba in our tradition as alluded to by MHI in the anaecdote, it does solve the problem.
On matters of faith MHI normally makes Farmans. I have not heard a Farman stating the direction to face when praying.

Our Ginanic tradition states that the Kaba is our heart. That is where we should focus our attention in prayer.

In my opinion unless there is a Farman which specifically states the direction, we should carry on as normal.

How can you explain what is in the guidelines that the present Imam gave to Imara for building New JKs. I have gone over this a few times in the forum of "Elders of the Jamat versus Pluralism" here is the link (please read):
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=730&sid=7f87a29b89471b4d918d2b60aecadc6d
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20955

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am aware of that. MHI may give guidance at various levels of our institutions, but unless he makes specific Farmans on this, we should not jump into conclusions.

Even if he may make such decisions on policy for the sake of building bridges with other Muslims, that should not prevent us from retaining our essential understanding of the Kaba which is part of our tradition.
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unnalhaq



Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't say you should change it but you are taking it as if I was telling you to change. There is a difference!
Also on the same token The Imam does not have to tell you everything as is He has told us to use our intellect but I have come to realize the word "intellect" gets lost in translation to ignorance.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20955

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

unnalhaq wrote:
I didn't say you should change it but you are taking it as if I was telling you to change. There is a difference!
Also on the same token The Imam does not have to tell you everything as is He has told us to use our intellect but I have come to realize the word "intellect" gets lost in translation to ignorance.
If one were to use the intellect and reflect upon the anecdote alluded before, it would not be difficult to discern that Kaba has no essential significance in our tradition. If MHI did give any guidance to INARA, it would only be for the sake of building bridges and nothing more.
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unnalhaq



Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
If one were to use the intellect and reflect upon the anecdote alluded before, it would not be difficult to discern that Kaba has no essential significance in our tradition.

That is the ignorance that I am talking about or may be misinformed and it continues to propagate through the RE/REC/NIGHT SCHOO/DAR UL ILM/MISSON CLASSES- though not part of the curriculum but personal views and traditions of a group that fails to recognize that there are other traditions within Ismaili Faith.
I don't think the tradition you are talking (representing) about does not reflect all Ismailis but only of the Khoja-Tradition.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20955

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

unnalhaq wrote:
That is the ignorance that I am talking about or may be misinformed and it continues to propagate through the RE/REC/NIGHT SCHOO/DAR UL ILM/MISSON CLASSES- though not part of the curriculum but personal views and traditions of a group that fails to recognize that there are other traditions within Ismaili Faith.
I don't think the tradition you are talking (representing) about does not reflect all Ismailis but only of the Khoja-Tradition.
The anecdote that I alluded to was not meant to be for khoja Ismailis only but rather for any Ismaili who accepts Imamat.

If there is a non khoja Ismaili tradition that gives any significance to Kaba, I would like to know.
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unnalhaq



Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
unnalhaq wrote:
That is the ignorance that I am talking about or may be misinformed and it continues to propagate through the RE/REC/NIGHT SCHOO/DAR UL ILM/MISSON CLASSES- though not part of the curriculum but personal views and traditions of a group that fails to recognize that there are other traditions within Ismaili Faith.<BR>I don&#39;t think the tradition you are talking (representing) about does not reflect all Ismailis but o&shy;nly of the Khoja-Tradition.
The anecdote that I alluded to was not meant to be for khoja Ismailis o&shy;nly but rather for any Ismaili who accepts Imamat.<BR><BR>If there is a non khoja Ismaili tradition that gives any significance to Kaba, I would like to know.

I can't hand you everything you must research! Sorry man this is where you start to a look little harder. Once you had told me that you visited Syrians and I gave you some examples on how things are different there (in JK). Have you read that yet? If so, just keep searching you'll find it. While you are looking keep one thing in mind and maybe soon you'll hear my voice "I told ya". It is said that there are 25Million Ismailis or some would say there are 15Mil. First, let’s take a look at 25Mil it is 1/4 of what is known. Out of the 25mil, 15mil are fanatic, 10mil would tell you they are liquid put them anywhere they'll adapt. But if you ask me I'll tell you I am water, yes liquid even mix with oils but wont change and if poured onto hot oil I won't ignite but evaporate but I'll stray true(pure) to my self.
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nagib



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no idea in which direction the Kaaba is from here but I know this, as said in the Quran, wherever you turn your face, God is there.

Whwn you travel to distant Galaxies and go to other planets, the limited notion of Kaba will become apparent. Kaba is of importance only because Hazrat Ali was born there. Tomorrow it may not even exist.

I also know that there have been places in history and periods where Ismailis have recited namaz, turned toward Kabaa, done Ramadhan roza and still they were not considered accaeptable Muslims.

So if it is that important for us to be conventional and acceptable to other Muslims, the only way would be to deny that we have a living Imam. That surely will please all of them and then we could become one the blind leading the blinds...

Otherwise, we can still stick to the only Kaba that we know as Ismaili and which will always remain the Imam of the Time....

Nagib
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

unnalhaq wrote:
kmaherali wrote:
If one were to use the intellect and reflect upon the anecdote alluded before, it would not be difficult to discern that Kaba has no essential significance in our tradition.

That is the ignorance that I am talking about or may be misinformed and it continues to propagate through the RE/REC/NIGHT SCHOO/DAR UL ILM/MISSON CLASSES- though not part of the curriculum but personal views and traditions of a group that fails to recognize that there are other traditions within Ismaili Faith.
I don't think the tradition you are talking (representing) about does not reflect all Ismailis but only of the Khoja-Tradition.


Yes..but the one thing that is common with all Ismailies regardless of creed, caste or geographical affiliation that you are failing to see...is that we are a BATINI FAITH...ESOTERIC..numerous farmans of the IMAM point to this..
Wonder why other brethern from the other tariqahs are failing to see that...
this isn't just a Khoja ideology..if it is..than all should adopt it...

the idea of praying facing the Kaaba is a very exoteric thing..what is in the Kaaba..a meteorite..
agreed the Kaaba was built by Hazrat Ibrahim and then cleansed by the Prophet..but since when did we become so physical..
the kaaba means house of god.
i was always taught Jamat Khana is the House of Mowla Bapa..thus that's my Kaaba and unless MHI makes a farman telling me to face kaaba to say my dua...i am going to say it the same way i say it now...
to me..Allah..the noor of Allah..is everywhere..so no matter where I face..
He is around me and within me...

Shams
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unnalhaq



Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:
..what is in the Kaaba..a meteorite..

I think you should get a hold of your emotions because you can handle the heat that you may draw from it or if the tables are turned.
ShamsB wrote:

I was always taught Jamat Khana is the House of Mowla Bapa..

Well Jamat Khana is the Persian ("Farsi") word for community home
Jamat = Community
Khana = Home
ShamsB wrote:

..but since when did we become so physical..

As soon as you offered Dasond or look Niaz or attended Deedar and on and on, these are physical things that you do that have other meanings also but still are physical tangibles.
ShamsB wrote:

unless MHI makes a farman telling me to face kaaba to say my dua...

Again let me advice you that your expression of the bravado is not something you can live up to. Here are the two farmans that Imam gave in Australia in mid 80s and also in early 90s that not to go to western world specifically to UK, US and Canada illegally. Also around the same in Uganda He repeated at least twice not to bend the rules or laws.
I think we both know the predicament that Jamet was in after 9/11.
All I am saying is don't say something that you can't live up to.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

unnalhaq wrote:
ShamsB wrote:
..what is in the Kaaba..a meteorite..

I think you should get a hold of your emotions because you can handle the heat that you may draw from it or if the tables are turned.
ShamsB wrote:

I was always taught Jamat Khana is the House of Mowla Bapa..

Well Jamat Khana is the Persian ("Farsi") word for community home
Jamat = Community
Khana = Home
ShamsB wrote:

..but since when did we become so physical..

As soon as you offered Dasond or look Niaz or attended Deedar and on and on, these are physical things that you do that have other meanings also but still are physical tangibles.
ShamsB wrote:

unless MHI makes a farman telling me to face kaaba to say my dua...

Again let me advice you that your expression of the bravado is not something you can live up to. Here are the two farmans that Imam gave in Australia in mid 80s and also in early 90s that not to go to western world specifically to UK, US and Canada illegally. Also around the same in Uganda He repeated at least twice not to bend the rules or laws.
I think we both know the predicament that Jamet was in after 9/11.
All I am saying is don't say something that you can't live up to.


As an Ismaili..whether one is Khoja, Khusrawi, Chinese, Russian, or Hunzaite...Dua and Dasond are requirements of the FAITH..facing Kaaba whilst praying the last time I checked wasn't a requirement...

The Farmans that you have quoted are totally out of context..in no country that i know of, is it a Law to face the Kaaba when praying..if i am mistaken please quote the country and the specific law.

and in terms of being physical...it was referring to facing the Kaaba whilst praying..i beleive it's KMaherali or Nagib that quoted the anecdote of the Hunzaite falling to the feet of the Imam as his Kaaba....

Please quote a verse from the Quran specifying that ALL muslims have to face the Kaaba whilst praying.
Note...find the word Kaaba..

Thanks

Shams

From Surah Baqarah

2:177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in Prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allahfearing.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Unnal Haq wrote :
[ShamsB wrote:

I was always taught Jamat Khana is the House of Mowla Bapa..

Well Jamat Khana is the Persian ("Farsi") word for community home
Jamat = Community
Khana = Home]

You have told the literal meaning of the word "Jamat Khana". According to Ginan "Is duniya mai tu bhooli kem.." Pir Hassan Kabirdin says Jamat Khana as a house of Ali and Nabi.
Also it is in Quran that,"[This Lamp is found] in house which Allah hath allowed to be exalted and His name shall be remembered therein. There in do offer praise to Him at morning and evening." [Sura Nur Ayat 36]
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arzimood



Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:25 pm    Post subject: Facing the Kaba'a Reply with quote

<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN class=name><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Kmaherali wrote: “</SPAN></B></SPAN><SPAN class=postbody><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">In my opinion unless there is a Farman which specifically states the direction, we should carry o&shy;n as normal</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=name><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">”<BR>but we certainly should have the understanding of wht we are doing n y. b&#39;coz without actually knowing n understanding the essence or the fact we cannot offer it with maximum possible effectiveness.<BR><BR>Before putting the up this question the concept n understanding i had was:<BR><BR>1. Earth is sphere no matter where ever u face u&#39;d ultimately endup facing the Kaba&#39;a<BR>2. It was o&shy;nly Hazrat Ali(A.S.) who was born in Kaba&#39;a and we believe that Ali is present everywhere, therefore doesn&#39;t matter which ever direction we face.<BR>3. Follows a Quranic Aya&#39;s which states that God lives in our Heart the exact translation is as:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "DIL REHMAN KHUDA KA GHAR HAI" <BR>therefore again doesnt matter which ever direction we face.<BR>4. Kaba&#39;a which is called as Baitullah that is House of Allah was called the same by people living in Arab before advent of Islam. But then by baitulllah they meant House of their Idols. if Muslims across the world are facing toward baitullah then it is the same for muslims and wht it was b4 advent of Islam. <BR><BR>These were the reasons i had b4 posting. i look fwd to feedback n comments from all! n id like to thank Shams B for the Quranic refernce provided.<BR><BR>YAM</SPAN></B></SPAN></P>
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unnalhaq



Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

unnalhaq wrote:

ShamsB wrote:

unless MHI makes a farman telling me to face kaaba to say my dua...

Again let me advice you that your expression of the bravado is not something you can live up to. Here are the two farmans that Imam gave in Australia in mid 80s and also in early 90s that not to go to western world specifically to UK, US and Canada illegally. Also around the same in Uganda He repeated at least twice not to bend the rules or laws.
I think we both know the predicament that Jamet was in after 9/11.
All I am saying is don't say something that you can't live up to.

ShamsB wrote:

The Farmans that you have quoted are totally out of context..in no country that i know of, is it a Law to face the Kaaba when praying....

No, you did not understand what was pointing out you.
The point was that no matter what the farman no one follows it! I suggest to you is read that farmans that I quoted and tell me that isn't so in reality. If you still disagree that people followed those farmans (or it was ever been read in JKs, lets say here in US) then I would ask you to go to your council member who is collecting on "Annual Jamati Fund" (I think the end of collection is April 30, 2005) and ask why the budgets are not published and also what is the TAX ID for that fund? You'll get my answer from them!
ShamsB wrote:

and in terms of being physical...it was referring to facing the Kaaba whilst praying..i beleive it's KMaherali or Nagib that quoted the anecdote of the Hunzaite falling to the feet of the Imam as his Kaaba....

I agree with Nagib, we finally won't have to worry about the new moon nights, it goes on and on and on, it's like a doubleheader and we are at the bottom of the 13th inning and the score is tied.
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ahsatan



Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our jamaat khanas do face Kabaah, therefore, we do face Kabaah when we recide Dua'a.

For example, the Burnaby Jamaat Khana:

"The qibla, the wall of the building that indicates the direction of prayer towards Mecca, rises at the far end of a wide, open area. The overall approach at the Jamatkhana of expanding and refining layers of words and shapes through repetition gives strength to the waves of red and white marble plaques, floated like ivory pendants along the qibla wall. They spell out the name of Allah." (Angela Anderson)

http://www.martlet.ca/feature.html

The site talks more about the architecture and structure of the jamat khana.
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unnalhaq



Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:

unless MHI makes a farman telling me to face kaaba to say my dua...


unnalhaq wrote:

Again let me advice you that your expression of the bravado is not something you can live up to. Here are the two farmans that Imam gave in Australia in mid 80s and also in early 90s that not to go to western world specifically to UK, US and Canada illegally. Also around the same in Uganda He repeated at least twice not to bend the rules or laws.
I think we both know the predicament that Jamet was in after 9/11.
All I am saying is don't say something that you can't live up to.

ShamsB wrote:

As an Ismaili..whether one is Khoja, Khusrawi, Chinese, Russian, or Hunzaite...Dua and Dasond are requirements of the FAITH..facing Kaaba whilst praying the last time I checked wasn't a requirement...

You are correct in saying that there is no requirement within current Ismaili practice but The present Imam has given a guideline to the IMARA that all JKs must face Kaba and yes it is in writing.
ShamsB wrote:

The Farmans that you have quoted are totally out of context..in no country that i know of, is it a Law to face the Kaaba when praying..if i am mistaken please quote the country and the specific law.

I don't think that you understood what I was pointing out to you when you
ShamsB wrote:

unless MHI makes a farman telling me to face kaaba to say my dua...
. I sugesst you please read it again.
ShamsB wrote:

and in terms of being physical...it was referring to facing the Kaaba whilst praying..i beleive it's KMaherali or Nagib that quoted the anecdote of the Hunzaite falling to the feet of the Imam as his Kaaba....

Please quote a verse from the Quran specifying that ALL muslims have to face the Kaaba whilst praying.
Note...find the word Kaaba..

I think there is a sura out there that comments the change from Al Asksa to Kaba change. You see the prophept and the followers used to turn to the first Ursh-ul-Azeem (the mosque of Al Asksa) before Kaba. I think Kaba was referred to as the cube in translations.
Now I must tell you last time I had read the Quran (aya by a aya) with it's translation was when I was 12 and it has been few years since then...
I think it would be in your best interest for you not to quote Quran and once backed into the qurner, I know for the fact many of you will be slipperier than the cat fish and say it [Quran] is altered. Trust me, that is what I got from most of yous… icon_wink.gif
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ahsatan



Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAM

Allah S.W.T says in the Holy Quran:

We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do. (Surah Al-Baqara, Ayah 144)

From whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; that is indeed the truth from the Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do. (Surah Al-Baqara, Ayah 149)

So from whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; and wheresoever ye are, Turn your face thither: that there be no ground of dispute against you among the people, except those of them that are bent on wickedness; so fear them not, but fear Me; and that I may complete My favours on you, and ye May (consent to) be guided; (Surah Al-Baqara, Ayah 150)

Qibla means direction in which muslims pray. The "sacred mosque" in is the Ka'bah.

Regarding your comment about the Quran being altered, I don't think the Quran is altered. I would think considering it would be a sin. Although, in Arabic a word can have many meanings, and the interpretation might defer from translator. Although, Pickt Hal, Yusuf Ali and Shakir generally have the same translation. Furthermore, it is emphasized by our Imam that we read the Quran, know parts of the Quran and know the meaning.

- tashh
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahsatan Kindly refer to topic "Is Quran complete"
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ahsatan wrote:
YAM



Regarding your comment about the Quran being altered, I don't think the Quran is altered. I would think considering it would be a sin. Although, in Arabic a word can have many meanings, and the interpretation might defer from translator. Although, Pickt Hal, Yusuf Ali and Shakir generally have the same translation. Furthermore, it is emphasized by our Imam that we read the Quran, know parts of the Quran and know the meaning.

- tashh


We have farmans from Imam Aga Ali Shah, Imam Aga Sultan Mohammed Shah that state that the Qu'ran is incomplete.
Ismailism isn't dependant or based on the Qu'ran rather the Imam..

To Unnal Haq..i've said this before..if the Imam says face Kaaba I will face Kaaba..if he says face Haramasharif..I will face HaramaSharif..if he says face the moon..i will face the moon to say my dua..but he hasn't yet..
and our faith is an esoteric faith..facing the Kaaba is a very exoteric action...as MHI has said in a dar es salaam farman..tomorrow we may go for a picnic on the moon or venus..how are we to find Kaaba then...
for me Allah is everywhere..whether i face east, west, north, south, the sun, the stars or the moon..
you are more than welcome to face the kaaba if you so choose..until and unless i hear a farman of MHI stating that WE as the community are required to face the kaaba...I feel we aren't required to do so...

There is a farman of Aga Ali Shah that says that following the Arabs and their Maulvis will not lead to Salvation..following HIM will lead to salvation.

Shams
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ahsatan



Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAM,
Allah S.W.T also says

Unto Allah belong the East and the West, and whithersoever ye turn, there is Allah's Countenance. Lo! Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing. (Surah Al-Baqarah, Ayah 115)

From the above, you can even say that a Muslim can pray in any direction, because Allah is EVERYWHERE.

Furthermore, the first thing that clicked to me when I read it had been altered was that the words were changed or what not.

Cheers.

-tashh
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unnalhaq



Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:
..tomorrow we may go for a picnic on the moon or venus..how are we to find Kaaba then...

I hate to answer with a question but...
What happens to the New Moon Night (and New moon Majalis and other Majalis that are 7,8,9 and so on nights followed by it) ?
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok but the main point here is if there is not Farman to face Kaba to recite Prayer or Dua then there is no need at all. For recting Dua there is not need to look at Photos of Hazir Imam or to make face towards certain direction and to do this or that..Whenever there is time of prayer, even if we not go to Jk and are in bus or train etc and its time for prayer we are required to say Dua there..There is not so complusion to face towards a particular direction For we believe God is every where not only in Mecca...
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

unnalhaq wrote:
ShamsB wrote:
..tomorrow we may go for a picnic on the moon or venus..how are we to find Kaaba then...

I hate to answer with a question but...
What happens to the New Moon Night (and New moon Majalis and other Majalis that are 7,8,9 and so on nights followed by it) ?


Your question just made my point for me.
We are a batini faith.
maybe the issue of us not having to face kaaba is Mowlana Hazar Imam's way of preparing us for that eventuality where we will not depend on the lunar cycle....
there is a farman of the imam that states someday we will go for a picnic on the Moon or Venus..i thoroughly beleive it will happen one day...maybe my grandchildren...

are we now being selective in the farmans we will follow Unnal Haq?

Shams
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unnalhaq



Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:
unnalhaq wrote:
ShamsB wrote:
..tomorrow we may go for a picnic on the moon or venus..how are we to find Kaaba then...

I hate to answer with a question but...
What happens to the New Moon Night (and New moon Majalis and other Majalis that are 7,8,9 and so on nights followed by it) ?


Your question just made my point for me.
We are a batini faith.
maybe the issue of us not having to face kaaba is Mowlana Hazar Imam's way of preparing us for that eventuality where we will not depend on the lunar cycle....

Now you are saying that The Imam is giving us mixed signals??? Because I know that He has given the IMARA directive and it is in writing to have all New and Reconstructions of JKs must face Kaaba. Are you telling me that you need a copy of IMARA manual? I have to tell you to ask them for it first.
Please don’t get me wrong and don’t take it personal but it would not hurt to research for change. I have read your (and others) posts else where and all I hear is that “can you please site the source” even if the person posting had indicated where. I think it show a lack of consideration to the others and it shows that one is either lazy or not ready to accept for what it is.
ShamsB wrote:

there is a farman of the imam that states someday we will go for a picnic on the Moon or Venus..i thoroughly beleive it will happen one day...maybe my grandchildren...

are we now being selective in the farmans we will follow Unnal Haq?

Shams

I know of that farman that was in His first year of His Imamet. And with in couple of years after that President Kennedy had announced in his speech the "...by the end of the decade we'll go to the moon..." and I think SMS had said used the word 'tea'.
Not as much of selective in Farmans but more time and region appropriate.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

unnalhaq wrote:
ShamsB wrote:
unnalhaq wrote:
ShamsB wrote:
..tomorrow we may go for a picnic on the moon or venus..how are we to find Kaaba then...

I hate to answer with a question but...
What happens to the New Moon Night (and New moon Majalis and other Majalis that are 7,8,9 and so on nights followed by it) ?


Your question just made my point for me.
We are a batini faith.
maybe the issue of us not having to face kaaba is Mowlana Hazar Imam's way of preparing us for that eventuality where we will not depend on the lunar cycle....

Now you are saying that The Imam is giving us mixed signals??? Because I know that He has given the IMARA directive and it is in writing to have all New and Reconstructions of JKs must face Kaaba. Are you telling me that you need a copy of IMARA manual? I have to tell you to ask them for it first.
Please don’t get me wrong and don’t take it personal but it would not hurt to research for change. I have read your (and others) posts else where and all I hear is that “can you please site the source” even if the person posting had indicated where. I think it show a lack of consideration to the others and it shows that one is either lazy or not ready to accept for what it is.
ShamsB wrote:

there is a farman of the imam that states someday we will go for a picnic on the Moon or Venus..i thoroughly beleive it will happen one day...maybe my grandchildren...

are we now being selective in the farmans we will follow Unnal Haq?

Shams

I know of that farman that was in His first year of His Imamet. And with in couple of years after that President Kennedy had announced in his speech the "...by the end of the decade we'll go to the moon..." and I think SMS had said used the word 'tea'.
Not as much of selective in Farmans but more time and region appropriate.


Once again...there is NO FARMAN, NO GUIDANCE GIVEN TO TARIQAH BOARDS ...point to a farman where MHI has said I want you to start facing the Kaaba...
if we should face the kaaba because it is the house of God..for me Ali = Allah..and MHI is the current Imam..he lives in France..maybe I should start facing France..or where he is in the world physically to start pray...
Tell me why we should face the Kaaba..
and if you say because the other muslims do..then..
The premise of your arguement if based on the version of Arabist Islam is ludicrous...next you will be telling us that the women need to sit behind the men and wear hijabs.

Guidance given to Imaara (having access to the materials) is for a specific purpose..it is for the reason to build bridges within the Ummah..
We are a batin faith..
MHI has stressed over and over again in various farmans that our prayers are so simple and so easy to recite that we can do it in private and no one will even realize..
a quote from the toronto farman:
"We will not look backwards and draw only experience and learning from our history."
Toronto March 8th Am Session.

The evolution of any faith should always progress not regress.

Shams
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