www.ismaili.net

Ya Ali Madad,

For the last few years, I have been doing independent research in order to determine the names of Imams before the time of Hazrat Ali; I have used biblical material, the Quran, ismaili ginan excerpts, and hindu scriptures in my research.

I will be posting my results along with scriptural references. I would appreciate any comments or constructive criticism from whomever.

Mowla Aly Madad kandani,

In your Jamat Khana library look for "Waez series #1 Khudai Nur it has all the names written in it from before Adam to Mowla Aly.

Here is a ginan reference that 77 Imams have occured from the 1st until Imam Nizar our 40th Imam.

VENATEE KARU(N) CHHU(N) SAAHEB MORAA - SAYYID ABDUL NABEE

ejee venatee karu(n) chhu(n) saaheb moraa,
ne haseene saamu(n) juo jee;
hasee bolaavo maaraa ha(n)saa jee naa raajaa,
sharam hamaaree yaa alee toye jee.................................1

I entreat You, o my Master, to look at me with a smile as I stand before You. Call me with a smile, o Sovereign of my soul. My honour is in Your keeping, o Ali.

ejee kar joddeene em maagu(n) ho saaheb,
aas hamaaree ya alee puro jee;
hame gunegaaree ba(n)do dosaaree,
maaro jeevaddo chhe tamaare hajur jee.............................2

With humbly folded hands I ask, o Master, for You to fulfil my hopes, o Ali. I am a sinful and blameworthy creature, and my soul lies before You.

ejee vaa(n)chaa paalo moraa kaayam saamee,
ame aaveaa chhu(n) tamaare saranne jee;
at aadheen thaee paa(n)yaj laagu(n),
to paap hamaaraa yaa alee paraharo................................3

Fulfil Your promise, ever-living Lord, for I have already come to seek refuge with You. In most humble dependence I cling to Your feet, so remove my sins, o Ali.

ejee paap paraharee saaheb bhetteaa,
ne hete su(n) haeeddo maaro harakheeo;
moro man baa(n)dho apannaa alakh saathe,
ameea maahaaras bhirakheeaa(n) jee................................4

After removing my sins the Master embraced me, and my heart has rejoiced in love. My mind is fixed upon my invisible Lord, as I consume the nectar of great bliss.

ejee bhaaee re moman tame bhaave aaraadho,
ne hete su(n) haree ne aaj jee;
jenne hekaman thee aapannaa saaheb sireveeaa,
te paameaa aveechal raaj jee......................................5

O brother believer, adore with earnest intent and love the Lord today. Those who worship their Master with singleness of mind attain the everlasting kingdom.

ejee kaayam saamee shaahaa kehek maa(n)he baytthaa,
ne alee rupe avataar jee;
paatr satoter imaam chaalees,
paratak shaaho neezaar jee........................................6

The ever-living Lord and Master has his seat in Kahak, manifest in the form of Ali. He is the seventy-seventh vessel and fortieth Imaam, made manifest as Shah Nizar.
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According to this ginan there were 37 Imams before Imam Aly. When I have more time I will type all their names in.

Wish you all the best for your article

shams

Mowla Aly Madad kandani,

In your Jamat Khana library look for "Waez series #1 Khudai Nur it has all the names written in it from before Adam to Mowla Aly

Ya Ali Madad,

I have read the names of Imams as given in the old Asal dua. There are 77 names of Imams from the beginning of Creation - Period of 3 Karans all the way to Ali. Ali being generation 77. However, I found a number of inconsistencies and points of discontinuity within this list.

My research has found that the father of the biblical Adam of 4000 BC was Imam Honayd. Imam Honayd was the last Imam of the cycle preceding ours. He was also known as Boudh Avatar. After the death of Imam Honayd, his Adam became the first Prophet of the cycle, and Adam's son (Honayd's grandson) Seth received the Imamat.

Here are the names of Imams between Boudh Avatar and Ali. Included are my own comments.

Shri Budha (Honayd) (9th Avatar) – Marks the commencement of Kaliyug
50. shish (biblical Seth),
51. sham (biblical Shem)
52. malikulsalaam (biblical Melchizedek)
53. malkaan,
54. eslaam (biblical Ishmael),
(It is not exactly known how the Imamat came to Aaron, when it was previously held by Ishmael and his immediate descendants. Aaron descends from Isaac, the younger son of Abraham and the half-brother of Ishmael. One possible explanation is that Imamat reached Aaron through the hand of Jethro – the Priest/Imam of Midian/Medina – with whom Moses learned about God. It is highly probable that Jethro descended from Ishmael, and early Western scholarship identifies Jethro with the mysterious person of Khidr – who according to the Quranic narrative - helped and trained Moses as his spiritual master. It is also important to note that Moses married the daughter of Jethro – setting the stage for the Imamat to possibly be transferred to the House of Aaron.)
55. haroon (biblical Aaron),
(We find ourselves in another mysterious situation when attempting to trace the Imamat from Aaron to Simon Peter. Next to nothing is known about the descent of Simon Peter, and it does not help that the Jewish records of the genealogy of Aaron stop abruptly. If Simon Peter was the Imam during Jesus’ time, he would have to be a direct descendant of Aaron, and his ancestors would have to have been the ancient Israelite High Priests.)
56. shamunnsaffa (biblical Simon Peter),
(There is another huge gap between the Imamat of Simon Peter and the ancestors of Hazrat Ali. Not much is known about Simon Peter and his ancestors and how their lineage can link to the ancestry of Prophet Muhammad. However, on the other hand, the descendants of James, the brother of Jesus, fled to Arabia in 70 A.D. after the destruction of Jerusalem. It would be more logical to assume that James, the brother of Jesus was the holder of the Imamat, and that it was transferred to the ancestors of Muhammad by one of James’ descendants who lived in Arabia.)

(from here, the list is consistent other genealogies):
57. adnaan,
58. maa' d,
59. nizar,
60. mudar,
61. eliaas,
62. mudrak,
63. khuzema,
64. kinana,
65. nazar,
66. maalek,
67. gaaleb,
68. luve,
69. ka'ab,
70. mure,
71. kilaab,
72. kuse,
73. abdul munaaf,
74. abu hashim,
75. abdul mutalib,
76. abu talib,
77. Shri Naklanki Avatar - Ali bin Abu Talib

Feel free to respond to my comments, or provide further explanations for these apparent inconsistencies.

can you explain it more.

I think there are supposed to be 7 Imams between the major Prophets on average. Between Abraham and Musa and between Musa and Isa. I think this is where you are finding the gaps.


There is one Imam Fahar between Maalek and Gaaleb acording to this book I mentioned earlier.


I think it would add perspective to go through this book. "Khudai Nur" by Al-waez Kasamali L Wadiwala 1956 by Ismailia Association for Bharat
third edition.

Thanks for reply but i am confuse.But now I have another question .can you answer this?Ram,Krishana and Budh were prophets or avatar of God or both at a time.
According to Memoirs of Aga Khan they are Prophet.According to Ginans they are incarnation of God.Is every prophet incarnation of God?

In the Old Dua we said "Aly Mohammad yek Khuda haq shanashi daffe bala" for 700 years 3 times a day.

Rasulillah Hadith-"Mai aur Aly ek hi Noor mesae hai"

Natiq and Asas, the first speaks openly and the second sets the foundation of a new era.

With Mowla Aly (1st Asas) started Shia sect and with Mowlana Shah Karim Al-Husayni (the 7th Asas) The Aga Khan Foundation.

According to Farman of Imam Husayn when he was 2 years old - the cycle of every Adam lasts 50,000 years. We have 43 milleniums to go in this cycle.

"Hazrat Ali was with every prophet in batin and was Zahir at the time of Nabi Mohammad"

the major Prophets were accompanied by a Silent Companion. The Prophet was called Natiq, the Companion was called Asas. The Natiqs and Asas of previous eras were:

Natiq: Adam
Asas: Seth

Natiq: Noah
Asas: Shem

Natiq: Abraham
Asas: Ismail

Natiq: Moses
Asas: Aaron

Natiq: Jesus
Asas: Simon (or James, depends on ones perspective)

Natiq: Muhammad
Asas: Ali

There are no more Natiqs, but there is a continuing line of Asas, or Imams. Every Asas carries the same Nur of Ali.

Genealogy of the Imams
(Presented as EVIDENCE in the HAJI BIBI CASE before Mr. Justice Russell)

Period of the Three Karans

1. shri ahunah, 2. shri alakh, 3. shri naamnil,
4. shri anil, 5. shri soon, 6. shri saan,
7. shri naan, 8. shri ginan, 9. shri noor,
10. shri tej, 11. shri jal, 12. shri kamal,
13. shri adbudh, 14. shri jaag, 15. shri tantaw,
16. shri premtantaw, 17. shri aad furush,

Period of the Four Kalaps:

1. shri haw, 2. shri kaw, 3. shri dharam
4. shri keshaw, 5. shri tawnaad, 6. shri utra,
7. shri haritak, 8. shri pururwa, 9. shri anta atita,
10. shri premrukh,

Period of the Four Yugas (Das Avatars)

Shri Maccha (1st Avatar)
1. manaek, 2. ajamil 3. agarsen,
4. ochhaut, 5 . bharesp at, 6. asvamitar,
7 . pautar, 8. padwir,

Shri Korabh (2nd Avatar)
9. bhisriyat, 10 . dikhiyat, 11. prajapat,
12. agarsen, 13 . kadim, 14. doel,

Shri Varah (3rd Avatar)
15. keshav, 16. khatrivash, 17. asaaw,
18. unas, 19. khalifat, 20. gotam,
21. anta shri vishnu 22. haritak,

Shri Narshinha, (4th Avatar)
23. manaek, 24 . kauchak, 25. repak,
26. keshvadhan, 27. keshvarukh,

Shri Vaeman (5th Avatar)
2 8. maandhata, 29. prathmijay,
30. jaesrin, 31. javlagan,

Shri Farsiram (6th Avatar)
32. roog, 33 . noog, 34 . ju jeaat, 35. kumbra,
36. alif, 3 7 . ajepaal, 38. dashrath,

Shri Ram (7th Avatar)
39. padam, 40. jashvadhan, 41. virpaar, 42. vaasudev,

Shri Krishna (8th Avatar)
43. parikhshat, 44. janmejay, 45. shesanand, 46. satanand,
47. swas than, 48. budsthan, 49. vinvachhraaj,

Shri Budha (Imam Honayd) (9th Avatar) – Marks the commencement of Kalyjug
50. shish (probably the biblical Seth),
51. sham (probably the biblical Shem)
52. malikulsalaam (probably the biblical Melchizedek)
53. malkaan,
54. eslaam (probably the biblical Ishmael),
55. haroon (probably the biblical Aaron),
56. shamunnsaffa (probably the biblical Simon Peter),
57. adnaan,
58. maa' d,
59. nizar,
60. mudar,
61. eliaas,
62. mudrak,
63. khuzema,
64. kinana,
65. nazar,
66. maalek,
67. gaaleb,
68. luve,
69. ka'ab,
70. mure,
71. kilaab,
72. kuse,
73. abdul munaaf,
74. abu hashim,
75. abdul mutalib,
76. abu talib,
Shri Naklanki – Ali ibn Abu Talib (10th Avatar)

As you can see, according to our old dua, Shri Ram, Shri Krishna, and Shri Boudh (not Siddharta Buddah), were Imams, not prophets. They are in fact ancestors of the Imams today.

I believe Imam SMS was a Natiq hence he spoke so openly about our Faith.
He himself has said in KIM part II 1st firman that it is once in a Thousand years that an Imam like him comes who explains the faith so clearly that even a common man can understand it.

star_munir wrote:What do you mean by Imam before Hazrat Ali?????
Hazrat Ali is the First Imam.Every Imam Has Noor of Hazrat Ali.Hazrat Ali is Noor of Allah.According to Farman and Hadith Hazrat Ali was with every prophet in batin and was Zahir at the time of Nabi Mohammad.Hazrat Ali is first Imam as you say in your Dua and read in history books.

Ali is Allah and hence he is the First - in this sense there is no Imam before Ali.

Quran reveals :
Surah Al-Hadid (57)
3) "He is the first, He is the last, He is the manifest, and He is the hidden and He is knower of all things.
[The word manifest, inter alia, means visible, true, eye-catching, clear, illuminate, reveal, establish, evident].

kandani wrote:Genealogy of the Imams
(Presented as EVIDENCE in the HAJI BIBI CASE before Mr. Justice Russell)

Period of the Three Karans

1. shri ahunah, 2. shri alakh, 3. shri naamnil,
4. shri anil, 5. shri soon, 6. shri saan,
7. shri naan, 8. shri ginan, 9. shri noor,
10. shri tej, 11. shri jal, 12. shri kamal,
13. shri adbudh, 14. shri jaag, 15. shri tantaw,
16. shri premtantaw, 17. shri aad furush,

Period of the Four Kalaps:

1. shri haw, 2. shri kaw, 3. shri dharam
4. shri keshaw, 5. shri tawnaad, 6. shri utra,
7. shri haritak, 8. shri pururwa, 9. shri anta atita,
10. shri premrukh,

Period of the Four Yugas (Das Avatars)

Shri Maccha (1st Avatar)
1. manaek, 2. ajamil 3. agarsen,
4. ochhaut, 5 . bharesp at, 6. asvamitar,
7 . pautar, 8. padwir,

Shri Korabh (2nd Avatar)
9. bhisriyat, 10 . dikhiyat, 11. prajapat,
12. agarsen, 13 . kadim, 14. doel,

Shri Varah (3rd Avatar)
15. keshav, 16. khatrivash, 17. asaaw,
18. unas, 19. khalifat, 20. gotam,
21. anta shri vishnu 22. haritak,

Shri Narshinha, (4th Avatar)
23. manaek, 24 . kauchak, 25. repak,
26. keshvadhan, 27. keshvarukh,

Shri Vaeman (5th Avatar)
2 8. maandhata, 29. prathmijay,
30. jaesrin, 31. javlagan,

Shri Farsiram (6th Avatar)
32. roog, 33 . noog, 34 . ju jeaat, 35. kumbra,
36. alif, 3 7 . ajepaal, 38. dashrath,

Shri Ram (7th Avatar)
39. padam, 40. jashvadhan, 41. virpaar, 42. vaasudev,

Shri Krishna (8th Avatar)
43. parikhshat, 44. janmejay, 45. shesanand, 46. satanand,
47. swas than, 48. budsthan, 49. vinvachhraaj,

Shri Budha (Imam Honayd) (9th Avatar) – Marks the commencement of Kalyjug
50. shish (probably the biblical Seth),
51. sham (probably the biblical Shem)
52. malikulsalaam (probably the biblical Melchizedek)
53. malkaan,
54. eslaam (probably the biblical Ishmael),
55. haroon (probably the biblical Aaron),
56. shamunnsaffa (probably the biblical Simon Peter),
57. adnaan,
58. maa' d,
59. nizar,
60. mudar,
61. eliaas,
62. mudrak,
63. khuzema,
64. kinana,
65. nazar,
66. maalek,
67. gaaleb,
68. luve,
69. ka'ab,
70. mure,
71. kilaab,
72. kuse,
73. abdul munaaf,
74. abu hashim,
75. abdul mutalib,
76. abu talib,
Shri Naklanki – Ali ibn Abu Talib (10th Avatar)

As you can see, according to our old dua, Shri Ram, Shri Krishna, and Shri Boudh (not Siddharta Buddah), were Imams, not prophets. They are in fact ancestors of the Imams today.

Without verifying the above to be contents from the Haji Bibi Case - Allah is also a Messenger when He himself conveys His message to his followers. Prophet Muhammad and other Prophets before him were Messengers of Allah in the sense that they were designated by Allah as `Messengers' inasmuch as the Holy Prophet Muhammad was the seal of the Prophet and Allah has not designated anyone as a "Prophet" after the Holy Prophet Muhammad

"Without verifying the above to be contents from the Haji Bibi Case - Allah is also a Messenger when He himself conveys His message to his followers"

- ok, this makes sense, as Ram and Krishna were Imams - ie: Manifestations of the Light of Allah, so they can be classified as Messengers.

"Ali is Allah and hence he is the First - in this sense there is no Imam before Ali. "

- if the world cannot exist without an Imam, then there must have always been present in the world, a perpetual line of Imams, even before Prophet Muhammad and Hazrat Ali.

"believe Imam SMS was a Natiq hence he spoke so openly about our Faith. "

- well, it is said that every 7th Imam is a Natiq-Imam. Therefore, our Hazar Imam, the 49th in the series, and the 7th Imam of the 7th heptad should be the Natiq.

It is interesting in the fact that the father to son transer of Imamat was not followed in the case of SMS and Hazar Imam, just as thousands of years ago, it was not followed in the case of Honayd and Seth.

Perhaps, with SMS, an era of Ismailism ended, and with Hazar Imam, a new begins.

"The lineage law started from Ali during the time of holy prophet muhammed. Please note that God/Imam decides the succession rule - not you or me - so where is the question of transfer of imamat not followed and all that rubbish?"

- ok, i understand your opinion now. You say that the lineage rule started during Ali's time and afterward. However, let me ask you, before Hazrat Ali was born, and before Prophet Muhammad's time, was there a Zahiri Imam on earth?
I am of the opinion that there MUST always be a zahir Imam on earth to guide the faithful. Therefore, I believe that Imam was physically-zahir with all the major Prophets, and that there were zahiri Imams even before the time of Prophet Muhammad.

kandani wrote:"The lineage law started from Ali during the time of holy prophet muhammed. Please note that God/Imam decides the succession rule - not you or me - so where is the question of transfer of imamat not followed and all that rubbish?"

- ok, i understand your opinion now. You say that the lineage rule started during Ali's time and afterward. However, let me ask you, before Hazrat Ali was born, and before Prophet Muhammad's time, was there a Zahiri Imam on earth?
I am of the opinion that there MUST always be a zahir Imam on earth to guide the faithful. Therefore, I believe that Imam was physically-zahir with all the major Prophets, and that there were zahiri Imams even before the time of Prophet Muhammad.

Imam means a Leader and God is a Leader and Quran reveals He is the First and the Last, He is the Manifest and the Hidden. God/Ali has always been there.

In the olden days travelling used to be a major problem - and hence if prophet used to stay somewhere and god physically used to stay somewhere else in another country/far away place - then to travel such a big distance possibly one had to cross mountains, jungles where there were wild animals, seas, etc. and possibly one had to also be hungry/thirsty due to food, water, etc. facilities not present at every place. If this was the case - it may not be possibly for the prophets to be with Allah zahiri and physically every now and then unless god himself came to him physically - if he want he can be from one place to another at no time at all because he is god.

In this regard, I need to know the basis where you mention:
Therefore, I believe that Imam was physically-zahir with all the major Prophets - What is your basis - please clarify.

It is to be noted Imam is not physically present with his followers in India at all times but he is physically present at any one place at a time - still his followers get guidance according to the changing times, inter alia, by his farmans as per the changing times.

"Therefore, I believe that Imam was physically-zahir with all the major Prophets - What is your basis - please clarify. "

The Major Prophets of the Kaljug were: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad

Each of these Prophets was accompanied by a Silent Imam - Ali in Zahiri form, these Imams were respectively: Seth, Shem, Ismail, Aaron, Simon, and Hazrat Ali.

The Major Prophet revealed the outer aspect (zahir) aspect of religion. The Silent Imam revealed the inner aspect (batin) of religion. Because today there are no more Prophets, the Imam is no longer Silent, rather he is Mubin or Manifest, and takes responsibility for both the inner and outer aspects of religion.

kandani wrote:"Therefore, I believe that Imam was physically-zahir with all the major Prophets - What is your basis - please clarify. "

The Major Prophets of the Kaljug were: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad

Each of these Prophets was accompanied by a Silent Imam - Ali in Zahiri form, these Imams were respectively: Seth, Shem, Ismail, Aaron, Simon, and Hazrat Ali.

The Major Prophet revealed the outer aspect (zahir) aspect of religion. The Silent Imam revealed the inner aspect (batin) of religion. Because today there are no more Prophets, the Imam is no longer Silent, rather he is Mubin or Manifest, and takes responsibility for both the inner and outer aspects of religion.

By Imam/Leader I mean Allah/Ali. If you mean designation as Imam then Allah/Ali took the designation of Imam only during the period of the holy prophet muhammad and not earlier. This is clear from the Dua --- there are 49 imams as on date.

Notwithstanding Roxy's outbursts, through my research of religious history, i discovered a certain pattern in the appearance of Prophethood and Imamat of the last 6000 years.

Definition of terms:
(these definitions are my understanding of these specific roles, anyone is free to add or expand on these:)

Imam E Muqim - the Imam who initiates the next Messenger Prophet. This Imam is the last Imam of the previous mini-cycle, and he is responsible for abrogating the previous Sharia, in order to make room for the Sharia of the next Messenger. The Imam E Muqim usually acts as a spiritual guide for the next Messenger and initiates him into the esoteric faith. ie: Abu Muttalib and Abu Talib were the guardians of Prophet Muhammad during the early days of his mission. They were the bearers of the Nur Imamat before it passed to Hazrat Ali.

Natiq - this is the Speaking Prophet or Messenger Prophet who comes with a new Sharia. The Natiq is responsible for conveying the outer meaning of religion. ie: Prophet Muhammad was the 6th and final Natiq

Imam E Wasi - this is the spiritual legatee of the Natiq. During the lifetime of the Natiq, the Wasi remains silent (samit), but later, he establishes the esoteric teachings of the faith. The Wasi is the foundation (asas) of the Imamat for that specific period. The successors of the Wasi dominate over a specific cycle. ie: Ali was the Wasi of Muhammad

Hujjah - the deputy of the Imam. The hujjah is the "proof" or "witness" of the Imam of the time. Also, in occulation periods, the Hujjah assumes the responsibilites of the Imam and guides the followers. ie: Salman Farsi is the archetypal Hujjah, as he was for Imam Ali.

Pir or Imam Mustawda - the trustee Imam. The Pir is a person from the lineage of Ali who can temporarily hold the authority of Imamat. All the Natiqs during their time of preaching were probably also Pirs since they commanded all authority. The Pir is also responsible for delivering the guidance of the Imam of the time. ie: Prophet Muhammad was the Pir, and after him, Imam Hasan became the Pir.

Minor Prophet/ Nabi - a minor prophet. These prophets were responsible for making small changes in the Sharia of a certain period. The Natiqs of this era were succeeded by minor, or lesser prophets. ie: Abraham was succeeded by Prophet Isaac, Moses succeeded by Prophet Joshua. It now seems that this function of minor Prophet has become that of the Pir.

kandani wrote:Notwithstanding Roxy's outbursts, through my research of religious history, i discovered a certain pattern in the appearance of Prophethood and Imamat of the last 6000 years.

Definition of terms:
(these definitions are my understanding of these specific roles, anyone is free to add or expand on these:)

Imam E Muqim - the Imam who initiates the next Messenger Prophet. This Imam is the last Imam of the previous mini-cycle, and he is responsible for abrogating the previous Sharia, in order to make room for the Sharia of the next Messenger. The Imam E Muqim usually acts as a spiritual guide for the next Messenger and initiates him into the esoteric faith. ie: Abu Muttalib and Abu Talib were the guardians of Prophet Muhammad during the early days of his mission. They were the bearers of the Nur Imamat before it passed to Hazrat Ali.

Natiq - this is the Speaking Prophet or Messenger Prophet who comes with a new Sharia. The Natiq is responsible for conveying the outer meaning of religion. ie: Prophet Muhammad was the 6th and final Natiq

Imam E Wasi - this is the spiritual legatee of the Natiq. During the lifetime of the Natiq, the Wasi remains silent (samit), but later, he establishes the esoteric teachings of the faith. The Wasi is the foundation (asas) of the Imamat for that specific period. The successors of the Wasi dominate over a specific cycle. ie: Ali was the Wasi of Muhammad

Hujjah - the deputy of the Imam. The hujjah is the "proof" or "witness" of the Imam of the time. Also, in occulation periods, the Hujjah assumes the responsibilites of the Imam and guides the followers. ie: Salman Farsi is the archetypal Hujjah, as he was for Imam Ali.

Pir or Imam Mustawda - the trustee Imam. The Pir is a person from the lineage of Ali who can temporarily hold the authority of Imamat. All the Natiqs during their time of preaching were probably also Pirs since they commanded all authority. The Pir is also responsible for delivering the guidance of the Imam of the time. ie: Prophet Muhammad was the Pir, and after him, Imam Hasan became the Pir.

Minor Prophet/ Nabi - a minor prophet. These prophets were responsible for making small changes in the Sharia of a certain period. The Natiqs of this era were succeeded by minor, or lesser prophets. ie: Abraham was succeeded by Prophet Isaac, Moses succeeded by Prophet Joshua. It now seems that this function of minor Prophet has become that of the Pir.

You mention:
Notwithstanding Roxy's outbursts, through my research of religious history .....
----------
From your research of religious history I am sure you must have come to know that whenever there has been an argument God conveyed the truth by his word; he does not feel shy and God is above history (in fact He is above All) - you should find this message in the Quran also. So you see God is actually a guide to his followers.

And the argument that Lord is Allah is made clear from the Dua, Farmans, Quran, etc. In this regard, I have quoted contents from farmans, dua and I have quoted verses from the Quran. So, please do not term my posting as my outburst. If you have anything against the Farmans, Dua, Quran, etc. the problem is yours.

Continuing from the previous post:

For the period beginning with Prophet Adam:

Day 1: Beginning of Prophetic Cycle (Tanzil) -

Imam-e-Muqim (Initiator Imam): Hunayd (9th Avatar, Imam-Qaim of the previous Cycle) see Quran 2:30, Boudh Avatar ginan, for pre-Adamic events
Prophet: Adam
Imam-e-Samit (Silent Imam): Seth, the son of Adam

This period was initially a period of Qiyama - Resurrection. Imam Honayd aka: Boudh Avatar had made his manifestation and anounced the religious truths to the conference of the Panch Pandaws. These pre-Adam events are also described in the Quran:

[Yusufali 2:30] Behold, thy Lord (Imam) said to the angels (his dignitaries): "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."
[Yusufali 2:31] And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."
[Yusufali 2:32] They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."
[Yusufali 2:33] He said: "O Adam! Tell them their names." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"
[Yusufali 2:34] And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.
[Yusufali 2:35] We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."
[Yusufali 2:36] Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."
[Yusufali 2:37] Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
[Yusufali 2:38] We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

The Ismaili interpretation of these events is different than most. It is not Allah who is addressing Prophet Adam, but rather it is the Imam of Resurrection (ie" Boudh Avatar, Imam Honayd). The Imam initiates the Natiq of the new prophetic cycle by placing his son, Prophet Adam, as his khalifa. The Imam also tells his dignitaries to bow down to their new Natiq, but one disciple - Harith bin Masa refused out of arrogance. This disciple is actually is the period incarnation of Iblis. He would then trick Adam by making Adam reveal the secret of Qiyama to men unworthy of receiving it. This is known as the Drama on Earth, and this pattern repeats at the beginning of such cycles. The Imam of Resurrection, Honayd, would pass on his Imamat to Seth, the son of Adam, but as long as there were Prophets, this Imamat was kept secret.

kandani wrote:Continuing from the previous post:

For the period beginning with Prophet Adam:

Day 1: Beginning of Prophetic Cycle (Tanzil) -

Imam-e-Muqim (Initiator Imam): Hunayd (9th Avatar, Imam-Qaim of the previous Cycle) see Quran 2:30, Boudh Avatar ginan, for pre-Adamic events
Prophet: Adam
Imam-e-Samit (Silent Imam): Seth, the son of Adam

This period was initially a period of Qiyama - Resurrection. Imam Honayd aka: Boudh Avatar had made his manifestation and anounced the religious truths to the conference of the Panch Pandaws. These pre-Adam events are also described in the Quran:

[Yusufali 2:30] Behold, thy Lord (Imam) said to the angels (his dignitaries): "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."
[Yusufali 2:31] And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."
[Yusufali 2:32] They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."
[Yusufali 2:33] He said: "O Adam! Tell them their names." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"
[Yusufali 2:34] And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.
[Yusufali 2:35] We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."
[Yusufali 2:36] Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."
[Yusufali 2:37] Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
[Yusufali 2:38] We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

The Ismaili interpretation of these events is different than most. It is not Allah who is addressing Prophet Adam, but rather it is the Imam of Resurrection (ie" Boudh Avatar, Imam Honayd). The Imam initiates the Natiq of the new prophetic cycle by placing his son, Prophet Adam, as his khalifa. The Imam also tells his dignitaries to bow down to their new Natiq, but one disciple - Harith bin Masa refused out of arrogance. This disciple is actually is the period incarnation of Iblis. He would then trick Adam by making Adam reveal the secret of Qiyama to men unworthy of receiving it. This is known as the Drama on Earth, and this pattern repeats at the beginning of such cycles. The Imam of Resurrection, Honayd, would pass on his Imamat to Seth, the son of Adam, but as long as there were Prophets, this Imamat was kept secret.

Guide to every prophet was Allah - It is allah who conveyed the message. There is a farman from mawlana hazar imam in Kalame Imame Mubin that he has conveyed his message to the people in their own language. If you are not aware of this then I can give you the proper reference of the farman with the translation. So I suppose your more research should finally come to the conclusion that mawlana hazar imam/ali/allah has been with every prophet .......

I am really impressed by the research done by kandaniI always thought Adam was the first human being ever created by Allah.,From the clay brought by the angels and then Allah beathed in to it to make a humanbeing ;who was Adam . All the other explanations given in this dicussion seems v. new to me Is there any publication of IIS where all this information is authenticated? Hazarat Ali was the first Imam and Karim shah is the 49th Imam according to Hazar Imam himself.<how can we propagate something else?<I am really confused.can you recommend some book or something where all this is explained. The book mentioned in first post is not available in our library.
Will tariqa board of western usa have it?
Such an impotant concept must have an easy accesible reference I think.

dchandani wrote:I am really impressed by the research done by kandaniI always thought Adam was the first human being ever created by Allah.,From the clay brought by the angels and then Allah beathed in to it to make a humanbeing ;who was Adam . All the other explanations given in this dicussion seems v. new to me Is there any publication of IIS where all this information is authenticated? Hazarat Ali was the first Imam and Karim shah is the 49th Imam according to Hazar Imam himself.<how can we propagate something else?<I am really confused.can you recommend some book or something where all this is explained. The book mentioned in first post is not available in our library.
Will tariqa board of western usa have it?
Such an impotant concept must have an easy accesible reference I think.

Very easy..read the old dua...
Ali was the first historical Imam...that is the first Imam to be declared as the Imam. Prior to Ali, we had 123,999 Imams....an Imam with every prophet.
There is a farman of MSMS that states without an Imam for a second..the world would perish.....
or the hadith of the prophet...Ali you are to me..as Harun was to Musa.

If you read the old testament..Harun/Aaron was permitted to go into the inner tabernacle, where even Musa/Moses was forbidden to go...

Hope this helps.

Shams

kmaherali wrote:

ShamsB wrote:Very easy..read the old dua...
Ali was the first historical Imam...that is the first Imam to be declared as the Imam. Prior to Ali, we had 123,999 Imams....an Imam with every prophet.
There is a farman of MSMS that states without an Imam for a second..the world would perish.....
or the hadith of the prophet...Ali you are to me..as Harun was to Musa.

If you read the old testament..Harun/Aaron was permitted to go into the inner tabernacle, where even Musa/Moses was forbidden to go...

Hope this helps.

Shams

Imams are always present regardless of whether there were any prophets. Hence there were many many more Imams than the number you alluded to i.e. 123,999.

Thanks Kmaherali..i meant to say atleast 123,999 imams.....

Does this evidence from our asal dua support the scientific theory of evolution?

When the commander of believers, Ali bin Abi Taleb as.gif came back from the battle of Nahrawan to Kufa,, he heard that Muawiya had been cursing and insulting him and was killing his shia. So he gave a speech in which he started by praising Allah and by sending Salawat to the Prophet (sawas). He mentioned the blessings that Allah bestowed on his Prophet and on him.

Then he said:

If it was not for this verse in the Quran I would not mention what I am about to say.

Allah says "Keep recounting (make mention of ) the bounties of your Lord" (93:11). O Allah, praise is only for you and your countless blessings and your unforgettable favours.

O people! I have heard the news (of Muawiya's behavior) and I can see that my death is approaching and that you are ignoring my status.

O people! I leave behind that which the prophet (sawas) left for you, the Quran and my family, which is the family of the Guide to Survival, the last of the prophets and the master of nobility, Prophet Mohammad (sawas)

O people! You will not hear this after me except from a liar. I am the brother of the Messenger of Allah (sawas) and his cousin; I am the sword of his revenge his pillar of intense strength and support.

I am the round molar of Hell and I am its fierce teeth.

I am the supporter of orphans.

I am the taker of souls.

I am Allah's strength that cannot be suppressed [1]

I am the disputer of wrong.

I am the killer of knights.

I am the destroyer of kufr.

I am the son in law of the best of all creations.

I am the master of all successors and I am the heir of the best of prophets.

I am the door of the city of knowledge.

I am the keeper of the knowledge of the Messenger of Allah (sawas) and I am his heir.

I am the husband of Batool, the Master of All of the worlds' women, Fatema the pure, the pious, the guided, the benevolent, the love of the love of Allah ( the prophet (sawas)), the best of his progeny, the flower of the messenger of Allah (sawas). His (prophet) grandsons are the best of grandsons and my sons are the best of sons.

Is there anyone who can deny this?

Where are the muslims who believe in Quran?


My name in the bible is "ILIYA" [2], and in the torah is "BARI" and in the Psalter is "ERI" Indians know my name is "KAABER" Romans know me as "BIT'RISA" Persians know me as "JOBEIR" Turks know me as "TABIR" blacks know me as "HEYTAR" priests know me as "BUSI" Abyssinians know me as "BITRIK", my mother knows me as "HEYDARA", my nurse knows me as "MAYMOUN", Arabs know me as "ALI", Armenians know me as "FAREEQ" and my father knows me as "Z'AHEER".


Beware that I am the special one in the Qur'an with many names. Do not change these or you will lose your religion.

Allah says, "Fear Allah and be with the truthful ones" (9:119). I am the truthful one.

I am the muezzin in this life and in the hereafter, as Allah says "the a muezzin between them will say, 'The curse of alla be on the unjust'" (7:44). I am that muezzin.

And Allah says "An announcement from Allah and his messenger (9:3)". I am that announcement.

And Allah says "Verily Allah is with those who do good" (29:69). I am the one who does good.

And Allah says "Verily there is a reminder in this for whosoever has a heart" (50:37). I am the one who has a heart.

And Allah says "Those who remember Allah standing, sitting and reclining" (3:191). I am the one who remembers.

And Allah says "On the heights shall be men who know them all by their marks" (7:46). Those men are my uncle (Hamza), my brother (Jaafar), my cousin (the prophet (sawas) ), and I.

I swear to Allah, the creator of seeds, that Hell will not touch any of our lovers and none of those who hate us will enter Paradise.

Allah says, "He who has created man from water, and made for him a relationship and son-in-law" (25:54) I am that son in law.

Allah says "It might be retained by the retaining ears" (69:12) I am the retaining ear.

Allah says "A man wholly belonging to one man" (39:29) I am that man for the prophet.

Mahdi is from my sons.

I have been made your test. The hypocrite is exposed through his hatred fro me. and Allah test his believers with my love.

The Prophet (sawas) promised me "O Ali, no one loves you but a believer and no one hates you but a hypocrite"

I am the owner of the flag of the Prophet (sawas) in this life and in the Hereafter.

On the day of judgement, the messenger of Allah (sawas) will precede me and I will precede my Shia. I swear to Allah that non of my Shia will be thirsty and non of them will be scared (on the day of judgement)

I have authority on my shia and Allah has authority on me.

Those who love me, love someone who loves Allah. Those ho hate me hate someone who loves Allah.

I have heard that Muawiya has insulted and cursed me! O Allah! increase your punishment on him and descend the curse on the one who deserves it, Ameen. O Lord of the Worlds, Lord of Isma'eel,and the sender of Ibrahim, You are glorious.

The he (Imam Ali as.gif) came down from the platform and he never addressed the public like that again for rest of his life, which came to an end when Ibn Moljam (may Allah's curse be on him) killed him.


All the imams bear the noor of ali as or his spirit , meaning that only the physical body is diffrent but the spirit is the same and also the noor , meaning every imam that has come or will come are all but ali as himself . Why did ali as did not say that indians know me as krishna but said know me as kabeer .


The fact that Abu talib was not an imam:


The propagation through practice of Islam by the Holy Prophet and the increase in the number of his followers paved the way for the open invitation of the people to Islam. God commanded the Holy Prophet of Islam to invite his close relatives. And warn your nearest relatives' (26:214).

In this way, backbiters could not say, Why do you not call your own relatives to worship the One God and warn them of God's severe punishment?' Moreover, the support of the relatives of the Prophet would help the promotion of Islam. So the Holy Prophet told Ali to prepare a meal and invite their relatives, who numbered about 40. After preparing the meal, Ali invited them. All the relatives of the Holy Prophet accepted the invitation and ate the meal prepared by the blessed hands of Ali. Although the food was not sufficient for even one person, all 40 people were full after eating that blessed food and, strangely enough, the food had not diminished at all. This amazed all of them but the obstinate Abu Lahab, who said without thinking, This is magic and charms'. The foolish man disregarded the fact that magic and charms cannot feed people!

On that day the Prophet said nothing about the matter. Perhaps his silence was due to the fact that he wanted them to realize the difference between a miracle' and magic' because if magic were the cause the guests would feel hungry after leaving the house of the Holy Prophet.

Since this gathering did not give any favourable result, the Holy Prophet invited them for the next day. Again the same reception was repeated and all were filled. Yet the food was not reduced even after the meal was over.

Then the Prophet said, 0 sons of Abdul Muttalib. God has assigned me to warn you of the painful torments of the wrongdoers and give you the good news of His reward to the pious believers. Become Muslims and follow me to achieve salvation. I swear by Almighty God that among all Arabs I do not know anyone who has brought his people anything better than what I have brought you. I have brought you prosperity and salvation both in this world and in the hereafter. The Gracious God has commanded me to call you all to worship Him. Now which one of you is willing to help me with the task? Anybody who announces his readiness to help me will be my brother, my successor, and the executor of my will'.

Nobody answered but Ali, who was the youngest. He stood up and said, "O Prophet of God. I am your assistant. I am your supporter".

The Prophet asked him to sit down. He repeated the same saying three times but no one except Ali replied to him. Then the Prophet pointed to Ali and said: "He is my brother, my successor and the executor of my will among you. Listen to him and obey him" (8) ~

It was on this very day that a number of people came to believe in the faith of the Holy Prophet of Islam,~ but ignorance and bigotry hindered some of his relatives from believing in his message. However, this gathering was effective in gaining support for the Holy Prophet.

Abu talib was present when prophet mohamed pbuhf announced this and no body but ali as stood all three times being the first to accept islam , if abu talib was imam then why was not he the first one to accept the proposition of islam that the prophet mohamed pbuhf announced.

Abutâlib fell sick. When the prophet visited him and saw he was soon to depart, he said, O my uncle, you brought me up in infancy, assisted me in manhood, and supplied my wants in my orphan state. May God, on my account, grant you the best rewards. I ask one word from you that my eyes may be enlightened. The object of the prophet in this was, that it might be publicly known that Abutâlib was a Musulmân, though he had not openly professed islam, that he might more effectually serve Mohammed. Abutâlib now repeated the kalemah or creed, declared his faith in islam, and after committing to Mohammed the relics of the prophets, and the covenant of Ibrâheem, departed to the eternal God.
Abutalib read the kalimah when he was about ot depart.


Prophet mohamed pbuhf said ali is to me as harun was to musa but there is no propeht after me , that means imamat started then , not before that , Thats the reason why the notion imamat came in to being coz there is no more prophets comeing after our lost beloved prophet mohamed pbuhf .


When we talk of allah subhantallah , every one should be more than carefull what we say , Allah subhanatallah is the most truthfull , the king of the king , the lord of the lord , the supreme of the supreme , It has benn said that allah subhantallah dosent need no one , that means our lord the supreme allah subhantallah dosent need any one be it prophet or imam or name it or the angels or the dirty humans , allah subhanataallah is self subsisting , the ever living , he does not begot nor was he begotten , no sleep nor slumber overtake him , and he fells no fatigue in guarding and preserving what is on the eath and in the heavens , The jinns were created before adam was , the knowledge was there trillion years before Adam as came in to being , When Adam as was created the first thing that he said was alhamdulillah .


I have done my research on krishna , the people that believe in krishna dosent look him as imam , they look him as being the supreme being ,
Krishna didnt preachced of monothesitic religion meaning only and only one god , I believe he preached polytheistic religion , means gods not one single god , like god of water , god of air etc.



I encourage every one to go and find out that how small is this planet earth that we live on , to some stars recently discovered by the modern science the planet earht is like an atom to them , After seeing this i said to myself that the earth is nothing in the front of allah subhanatallah , The planet earth is the darkest creation of allah subhanatallah , the most darkest one ever , meaning that the pious people are very few in number , Now when i think of heaven i go perplexed , The human intellect can not imagine some thing like heaven forget it , the splendeur of heaven is enormous trillions times bigger than the star that is trillion time bigger than the planet earth ,

Some times I go nuts when we dirty human beings , i say dirty human beings talk with so much ease about allah subhanatallah , the supreme of the supreme , Allah subhanatallah says what are you humas your but dust and sperm , thats it , Today when we see this walking , talking , running humans , these running talking and walking humans are but glory of allah subhanatallah , in reality we are all dust , i mean dust , and germ which is sperm , thats what we were and then the supreme turns us from that to a pouch of blood in our mothers wombs and then the most hight the exalted fashions us in diffrent ways and colours , when we say start with name of allah s the most beneficeint the most mercrilfull , it is millions times true , It is the infinite mercy of the creator that today we are here as humans , only and only his mercy .



It is aazim gunnah or sin to say that any imam or prophet is allah subhantallah , it is unacceptable . Ali is the lion of allah the wali of allah , Ali has autorithy on the belivers and Allah the most high the supreme has authorithy on Ali. When in the ginans it says ali is the first and the last , I dont belive it says of the first and last eternal one but the first and last physical one on the planet earht , The first and the last of eternal world is the supreme himslef , Allah subhanatallah .

Only and Only the qualities of the supreme manifest itself amongst his servants , i say servants , Allah subhanatallah servants are the angels the prophets and the imams , we are the slaves of allah subhanatallah , only the pious people are called the slaves of allah subhanatallah , for the majoruty of people they are not yet slave of allah subahantallah .

there is hadith that says that Ali as worshipped so intensivly that sometimes used to go unconious , name me one more person who goes unconious when they say thier prayers , no one no one ,