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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Das Avtaar Ginan
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Das Avtaar Ginan

 
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 4:36 pm    Post subject: Das Avtaar Ginan Reply with quote

Ginans with the concept of das avtar are now longer recited in any Jamatkhana. Is recting of this Ginan was stopped by Hazir Imam or Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah.Similarly which Ginans are banned by Hazir Imam and which are not by Hazir Imam but are banned by tariqa board. can any one tell me what paris conference says about it and what are the main points of Paris conference.
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nagib



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are no ginans banned by the Imam, only Man Har of Gulamali Shah was banned althouth one of the most beautiful composition existing. That particular ginan [granth] had a verse which was mis-understood by a group under Kamadia Jan. That group thought one can become equal or higher then the Imam [verse "hari thi (thaki) harijan mota"]. For that reason Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah may have said "burn it if that's the way people understand it". Of course Kamadia Jan's group assked for forgiveness after the event. kamadia Jan was thereafter asked by the Imam to go to a voluntary reclusion and stop seing people and doing hiss Sat Sang where he was brain-washing innocent believers.

From time to time people refer to Paris Conference 1975 to justify banning the ginnan. The minutes of Paris Conference 1975 which is a whole book signed by Iqbal Rupani have only one page on ginans. That page said that ginans should be catalogued in 3 categories upon approval of all the Ismailia Associations [which never happend]. Also any proposed changes should be submitted to Hazar Imam for approval but only if ALL the Ismaili Associations agree to that change. Of course there was never any consensus.

In reality, what the Imam did by putting those parametters is that no one except the Imam has the right to make any decision on Ginans.

At one point Pakistan Ismailia Association printed 2 books with changes in contradiction and defience to Imam's guidance at Paris Conference and tried [was succesful in India and Pakistan] to hide behind the Paris Conference wich did not give them in fact that right. As usual with our institutions, it's "Fait Accompli". They even included a preface saying the that the books with changes were a result of that Conference. The books spread like wild fire and by the time those who knew reacted, it was too late, the books were already in most of the households.

It was good that in subsequentt Ismailia Association meetings at the International level, this matter was clarified with the help of the Ismailia Association of Canada and Africa.

Nagib
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you very much for information.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nagib wrote:
There are no ginans banned by the Imam, only Man Har of Gulamali Shah was banned althouth one of the most beautiful composition existing. That particular ginan [granth] had a verse which was mis-understood by a group under Kamadia Jan. That group thought one can become equal or higher then the Imam [verse "hari thi (thaki) harijan mota"]. For that reason Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah may have said "burn it if that's the way people understand it". Of course Kamadia Jan's group assked for forgiveness after the event. kamadia Jan was thereafter asked by the Imam to go to a voluntary reclusion and stop seing people and doing hiss Sat Sang where he was brain-washing innocent believers.

From time to time people refer to Paris Conference 1975 to justify banning the ginnan. The minutes of Paris Conference 1975 which is a whole book signed by Iqbal Rupani have only one page on ginans. That page said that ginans should be catalogued in 3 categories upon approval of all the Ismailia Associations [which never happend]. Also any proposed changes should be submitted to Hazar Imam for approval but only if ALL the Ismaili Associations agree to that change. Of course there was never any consensus.

In reality, what the Imam did by putting those parametters is that no one except the Imam has the right to make any decision on Ginans.

At one point Pakistan Ismailia Association printed 2 books with changes in contradiction and defience to Imam's guidance at Paris Conference and tried [was succesful in India and Pakistan] to hide behind the Paris Conference wich did not give them in fact that right. As usual with our institutions, it's "Fait Accompli". They even included a preface saying the that the books with changes were a result of that Conference. The books spread like wild fire and by the time those who knew reacted, it was too late, the books were already in most of the households.

It was good that in subsequentt Ismailia Association meetings at the International level, this matter was clarified with the help of the Ismailia Association of Canada and Africa.

Nagib
--------------


Despite of all this, now all countries of the world has accepted these changes in JK recitation. Why is that? Its not just matter of India and Pak but western countries too...Is there any country where Ginans are still recited in its original words in JK?
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5812

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Recitation of ginan depend on the reciter. There is a whole section discussing changes in the Ginans. This section is on Das Avatar. However it is important to know that:

There is an active attempt by some well placed people among the leadership to annihilate all of our Satpanth Ismaili historical documents.

This is in conjunction with a recent attempt by some scholar to prove that all the Khojas were Ithna Ashari before the arrival of Mowlana Aga Hassanali Shah in India and the British with complicity of the first Aga Khan created a new religion which is what is known of Ismailism of the Khojas. So in essence they are saying that Khoja Ithnashri did not separate from the main faith in India but Khoja Ismailis did. at that time

Of course this interpretation can become possible only in the absence of historical Indian Ismaili documents which are even today actively destroyed in India and Pakistan.

If these historical documents are destroyed, it will be easy to rewrite history and say the Judgment of the Aga Khan Case by Judge Arnould was biased and not based on historical facts, paving the way to a new interpretation of history.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
Recitation of ginan depend on the reciter. There is a whole section discussing changes in the Ginans. This section is on Das Avatar. However it is important to know that:

There is an active attempt by some well placed people among the leadership to annihilate all of our Satpanth Ismaili historical documents.

This is in conjunction with a recent attempt by some scholar to prove that all the Khojas were Ithna Ashari before the arrival of Mowlana Aga Hassanali Shah in India and the British with complicity of the first Aga Khan created a new religion which is what is known of Ismailism of the Khojas. So in essence they are saying that Khoja Ithnashri did not separate from the main faith in India but Khoja Ismailis did. at that time

Of course this interpretation can become possible only in the absence of historical Indian Ismaili documents which are even today actively destroyed in India and Pakistan.

If these historical documents are destroyed, it will be easy to rewrite history and say the Judgment of the Aga Khan Case by Judge Arnould was biased and not based on historical facts, paving the way to a new interpretation of history.


Thank you admin for the response. I can also clearly see attempts to hide and fabricate the historical facts, literature and traditions of Satpanthi Ismailis...
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