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momin chetamani
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mazhar, There is no substance of interest in your post and therefore what I have written stands as is.

Please press the quote button when replying and do not copy paste, Look how other's postings neatly appears in a box.

Come back to the thread please.
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tret



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazhar wrote:

I think we have to discuss that particular paragraph of Farman. IF YOU WANT WE CAN OPEN A NEW THREAD.


Couldn't agree more. I think we need to understand this properly. I'd be interested.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why open new thread for 10 avatar? When there is a one!
There is no need to open new thread! even we open thousand new thread you will not understand it. period I have noticed that so far you both have not accepted the theory of 10 avatars, and "Ali Sahi Allah" despite many readers from this forums proved you wrong and when our 3 previous imams has accepted it and also mentioned it in their farmans!

What does that means? means: you both are superseding those farmans! and ignoring those farmans! and keeps repeating one SMS"s farmans as your defensive weapon! but the fact is you have not read that farmans thoroughly either. matter of facts you have copied many thoughts and borrowed some wrong accusations from one anti Ismaili Web site and throw its in this Web site which is not remained secret any more! or at least not remained hidden in eyes of Admin and my shelf.


Last edited by agakhani on Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:12 am, edited 3 times in total
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:13 am    Post subject: Who seperated Imam Shahi sect? Reply with quote

Quote:
It is even doubtfull that the Son of Syed Imam Shah pretended to be the Imam and took the Imam Shahis out of the mainstream Ismailis.

In fact some of the Imam Shahis prayers and writing still accept our 40th Imam. So the split has come late and probably if more research would be done, we would find greedy people politicians who took many people astray in Pirana and created the split of Imam Shahis.


After reading Syed Noor Mohammad Shah's available ginans I only found in "SATVENI NI VEL" in this ginan he has considered him shelf as a 'NAR': nar means Imam but other than that his all ginans are telling us to obey to Imam Nuruddin Ali and give dasond to him.

I also find following information from Ismaili.net. which are also backing my thinking that Imam Shahi sect was started after death of Syed Imam Shah.

It seems that a large conversion had been resulted in the time of Sayed Imam Shah in Gujrat and Kathiawar, where Mukhi Kheta used to collect the religious dues since the time of Pir Hasan Kabiruddin, procuring there more funds than that of Kutchh, Sind and Punjab. It is therefore most probable to speculate that Sayed Nur Muhammad Shah had desired the main treasury to be shifted gradually from Sind to Pirana, so that he might use the funds at his liberty. It should also be noted that between the year 926/1520 and 931/1525, the tradition of venerating the shrines of the Sayeds had largely developed among the followers who had supported Sayed Nur Muhammad Shah. It also seems that he had planned to make Pirana a centre of veneration more attractive than that of Uchh in Sind. In pursuit, he naturally needed huge funds, which he could only generate from the main treasury, and that is why he desired to transfer it from Sind to Pirana. He however instructed his followers to deposit their religious dues and offerings in Pirana.

Mukhi Kheta seems to be a regular and faithful in his duties. In the absence of any official orders, he could not comply with the instructions of Sayed Nur Muhammad Shah. Since Sind was near Iran than that of Pirana in making remittance of the whole funds to the Imam, therefore, it was immaterial to transfer the main treasury from Sind to Gujrat. In sum, the refusal of Mukhi Kheta and the opposition of Sayed Nur Muhammad Shah, had marred the relations of the Ismailis of Sind and Gujrat, and it was an early brick of the schism, making the Indian Ismailis bifurcated into the two branches, i.e., the Khojas Ismailis and the Imam-Shahis.

After being disappointed, Sayed Nur Muhammad Shah came up openly to misguide the Ismailis in India. All this had been brought to the notice of Imam Nuruddin Ali in Iran, who at once outcast him from the community with a express command, and instructed the faithful Ismailis to refrain from their association with the Sayeds of Pirana. Thus, Sayed Muhammad Shah and his followers defected from the Ismaili community, and laid the foundation of their own sect, known as the Imam-Shahis..The schism took place in the emotionally charged climate around 931/1525. W. Ivanow writes in "The Sect of Imam Shah in Gujrat" (JBBRAS, XII, 1936, p. 45) that, "The split, caused by Nur Muhammad Shah's pretensions, has done incalculable harm to his sect. Instead of being followers of Ismailism, the ancient and highly philosophical branch of Islam, with its great cultural traditions and the mentality of a world religion, they have become nothing but a petty community of "Piranawallas", a kind of inferior Hindus, and very doubtful Muslims. Anyhow, orthodox Muslims do not regard them as Muslims, and orthodox Hindus do not regard them as Hindus." In sum, the Imam-Shahi sect lost all its cultural elements and rapidly sank deeper and deeper, with no prospect of early regeneration. It is now a hodgepodge of Hindu and Islamic elements.

The above information taken from Ismaili.net
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ivanow has confirmed the fact that he himself was not familiar with Indian language.

We can assume he relied on what he heard from others and not on his own scholarly research.

This is why it is important to go through documents and manuscripts written in original local languages to understand when the split occurred.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazhar wrote:
You have objection about my quote of 9 AVTARS. Again this Farman exists in KALAM E IMAM E MUBIN. I quoted," 9 Avtar chhor do, means leave 9 Avtars or do not follow 9 Avtars." These are words of MSMS. In the begining of paragraph, Imam said," Hindu ki batein Ilm me parhtey ho ye wajib nahi." What this sentence means.
I think we have to discuss that particular paragraph of Farman. IF YOU WANT WE CAN OPEN A NEW THREAD.

MAESTRO ESTE NO JUSTO. NO JUSTO, NO PAZ.

"Some part of Hindu mythology in our teaching has a great deal of allegorical value and must be kept up." (MSMS at the Ismailia Mission Conference in July 1945)

You may continue discussion on Das Avtaar in the following thread after going through it:
The DARSHAN OF DAS AVTAAR
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=344
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Posting as received. Deleted few unrelated paragraphs and adjusted others.


PIR IMAM SHAH BAWA's devotees are chained at the feet. They close their eyes and pray fervently while walking towards the Sufi saint's tomb, the Hajrat Pir Imam Shah Bawa Roza, in Pirana village, outside Ahmedabad. If the chain disentangles in the first few steps, it means that your prayer will be granted soon. If not, it is a sign that it will take some time. Today, the Pir's followers are entangled in a dispute that could threaten the existence of their faith.

Residents of Pirana still follow Imam Shah Bawa's teachings of love and harmony, a Sufi-inspired amalgam of Islam and Hinduism. But powerful religious heads close to the Sangh Parivar are trying to communalise their belief, reducing it to little more than a sect of Hinduism.

In the heat of the conflict, the QURAN, handwritten by the Pir, which used to lie near his tomb, mysteriously disappeared. Pir Imam Shah Bawa is believed to have founded the Satpanth (true path) faith around 600 years ago. He taught tolerance and the universality of religions.

The sect is an off shoot of ISMAILI teachings, a liberal branch of Shiite Islam followed by the Aga Khani Khojas, and it attracted devotees from religions other than Hunduism and Islam too. All 18 communities living in Pirana village, belonging to different castes and religions, are devotees of Imam Shah Bawa.

The shrine also attracts followers from different parts of India. Hindu followers, called `Satpanthis', comprise 85 per cent of the sect. Several of them are from the Kutchi Patel community. Muslim followers, called `Sayyeds', are considered to be the saint's direct descendents. The Pir's devotees did not define themselves as Hindu or Muslim until they were forced to do so by the British Census in the mid-19th century. The pressure of Islamic reforms and the rise of Hindu revivalist groups also made them adopt clearly defined religious identities.

After the death of the saint, a shrine was built over Imam Shah Bawa's tomb. Within the complex, they also built a Dholia at the spot where he used to sleep, a mosque and a graveyard. Until 1931, the complex was a private property belonging to the Sayyeds, and was administrated by the head of the Satpanthis called `Kaka'.
A conflict between the Satpanthis and the Sayyeds emerged when the last religious leader Karsan Das Kaka tried to Hinduise the belief. The dispute has resulted in a spate of legal battles.

IN the late 1980s, the Kaka made several changes to the literature, rituals and prayers, removing any hint of Islamic influence. Now a day it is a Hindu samadhi mandir. It has no connection with Islam. The shrine administration has taken out the Islamic words. They have destroyed the meaning of Imam Shah's philosophy," The Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), the Bajrang Dal and the police are siding with Kaka. Anyone who questions them is taken to the police station. There is no meaning to the Satpanth any more.

In the post-Babri Masjid demolition fervour, the VHP allied with Karsan Kaka and the trustees to arrange a huge Sadhu Sammelan inside the dargah complex in 1993. They pledged to `re-convert' to Hinduism and change the shrine into a temple. The dargah was re-named `Prerna Pith' or `samadhi mandir'.

The Kaka discarded his old title and re-appointed himself `Maharaj' and `Acharya'. The trust cut off water and electricity supply to the masjid, saying that it was not part of the dargah complex. The `Om' symbol was painted all over the shrine. The Dholia was renovated with pictures of Hindu gods. The communal violence of 2002 further emboldened the VHP. Led by Bajrang Dal leader Babu Bajrangi, they stopped the traditional Tazia procession from the masjid to the dargah on the day of Moharram in January 2003. Both Hindu and Muslim devotees participate in this procession. A barbed wire fence was built separating the masjid from the dargah. Two entrances to the dargah were sealed off. After they put up the fence, it has become difficult to walk across and pray in both. They blocked the route of the Tazia procession. Hindus and Muslims have not done Tazia for two years.

TWO COPIES OF QURAN PLACED NEAR THE PIR'S TOMB MYSTERIOUSLY DISAPPEARED. ONE OF THEM WAS HAND WRITTEN BY IMAM SHAH BAWA. Other Islamic books lying near the tomb were also removed. A wooden box with silver used during the Moharram procession also disappeared. The 50-year-old tomb of Sayyed Tasakduk Hussain, a trustee, located near the dargah, was demolished completely. This sect is almost converted into Hinduism except few.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can we have the whole article untouched and without your "adjustment". This is important. Also source and date please. Thanks you.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
Can we have the whole article untouched and without your "adjustment". This is important. Also source and date please. Thanks you.




Frontline Volume 21 - Issue 18, Aug. 28 - Sep. 10, 2004
India's National Magazine
from the publishers of THE HINDU.

COMMUNALISM

The chains of Pirana

BY: DIONNE BUNSHA
in Pirana

A Gujarat village that follows a Sufi-inspired faith, a blend of Islam and Hinduism, is in danger of being swamped by Hindu fundamentalism.

PIR IMAM SHAH BAWA's devotees are chained at the feet. They close their eyes and pray fervently while walking towards the Sufi saint's tomb, the Hajrat Pir Imam Shah Bawa Roza, in Pirana village, outside Ahmedabad. If the chain disentangles in the first few steps, it means that your prayer will be granted soon. If not, it is a sign that it will take some time. Today, the Pir's followers are entangled in a dispute that could threaten the existence of their faith.

Residents of Pirana still follow Imam Shah Bawa's teachings of love and harmony, a Sufi-inspired amalgam of Islam and Hinduism. But powerful religious heads close to the Sangh Parivar are trying to communalise their belief, reducing it to little more than a sect of Hinduism.

In the heat of the conflict, the Koran, handwritten by the Pir, which used to lie near his tomb, mysteriously disappeared. Pir Imam Shah Bawa is believed to have founded the Satpanth (true path) faith around 600 years ago. He taught tolerance and the universality of religions.

The sect is an offshoot of Ismaili teachings, a liberal branch of Shiite Islam followed by the Aga Khani Khojas, and it attracted devotees from religions other than Hunduism and Islam too. All 18 communities living in Pirana village, belonging to different castes and religions, are devotees of Imam Shah Bawa.

The shrine also attracts followers from different parts of India. Hindu followers, called `Satpanthis', comprise 85 per cent of the sect. Several of them are from the Kutchi Patel community. Muslim followers, called `Saiyeds', are considered to be the saint's direct descendents. The Pir's devotees did not define themselves as Hindu or Muslim until they were forced to do so by the British Census in the mid-19th century. The pressure of Islamic reforms and the rise of Hindu revivalist groups also made them adopt clearly defined religious identities.

A barbed wire fence put up by the Satpanthi dargah administation to separate the Pir's tomb from the masjid.
After the death of the saint, a shrine was built over Imam Shah Bawa's tomb. Within the complex, they also built a Dholia at the spot where he used to sleep, a mosque and a graveyard. Until 1931, the complex was a private property belonging to the Saiyeds, and was administrated by the head of the Satpanthis called `Kaka', according to an article by researcher Dominique Sila-Khan. Some Satpanthis filed a case against the then Kaka Ramji Laxman (a Kutchi Patel) for misusing funds.

The court ordered that a public trust be set up to manage the property. The trust was to consist of seven Satpanthi and three Saiyed representatives elected every five years. But elections to the trust have not been held for the past 15 years. A conflict between the Satpanthis and the Saiyeds emerged when the last religious leader Karsan Das Kaka tried to Hinduise the belief. The dispute has resulted in a spate of legal battles.

IN the late 1980s, the Kaka made several changes to the literature, rituals and prayers, removing any hint of Islamic influence. When this writer visited the shrine, the guide appointed by the trust made it a point to keep telling her, "This is a Hindu samadhi mandir. It has no connection with Islam." "Our prayers had words like Om as well as Rehman and Rahim."

"The shrine administration has taken out the Islamic words. They are destroying the meaning of the philosophy," said Bharat Patel, a carpenter who lives in Pirana. He is also a Satpanthi, but resents the hijacking of the sect by a few powerful Kutchi Patels. "They are like a gang. It has become very political. The Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), the Bajrang Dal and the police are with them. Anyone who questions them is taken to the police station. There is no meaning to the Satpanth anymore. It has become very casteist. In the gurukul, they only look after the children of Kutchi Patels, not others. I used to go to the shrine everyday. But since they have destroyed it all, I don't go there. We don't get any respect," says Bharat Patel.

In the post-Babri Masjid demolition fervour, the VHP allied with Karsan Kaka and the trustees to arrange a huge Sadhu Sammelan inside the dargah complex in 1993. They pledged to `re-convert' to Hinduism and change the shrine into a temple. The dargah was re-named `Prerna Pith' or `samadhi mandir'.

The graveyard within the Pir Imam Shah Bawa dargah complex. Muslim devotees say that coconut trees have been planted at the spot to prevent them from using it as a burial site.
The Kaka discarded his old title and re-appointed himself `Maharaj' and `Acharya'. The trust cut off water and electricity supply to the masjid, saying that it was not part of the dargah complex. The `Om' symbol was painted all over the shrine. The Dholia was renovated with pictures of Hindu gods. The communal violence of 2002 further emboldened the VHP. Led by Bajrang Dal leader Babu Bajrangi, an accused in the Naroda Patiya massacre (the worst mass murder in Gujarat), they stopped the traditional Tazia procession from the masjid to the dargah on the day of Moharram in January 2003.

Both Hindu and Muslim devotees participate in this procession. A barbed wire fence was built separating the masjid from the dargah. Two entrances to the dargah were sealed off. "In our village, there is no discrimination. Only they are creating it within the shrine," said Chandrakant Patel, a Pirana resident from the Kutchi Patel community. "We used to pray at both the masjid and the dargah. After they put up the fence, it has become difficult to walk across and pray in both. They blocked the route of the Tazia procession. Hindus and Muslims have not done Tazia for two years. They are doing this to harass us. They want to cut off the Saiyeds totally and gain full control."

Two copies of the Koran placed near the Pir's tomb mysteriously disappeared. One of them was handwritten by Imam Shah Bawa. Other Islamic books lying near the tomb were also removed. A wooden box with silver used during the Moharram procession also disappeared. Framed copies of a farman, a document from King Aurangzeb donating 45 acres of land and money to the trust, also vanished. The original copy of this document is written on a silver plate, which is in the trust's possession. The 50-year-old tomb of Saiyed Taskdukhusain, a trustee, located near the dargah, was demolished completely.

The religious head of Satpanthis, Nanakdas Kaka, who calls himself Guru Maharaj Jagatguru Satpanth Acharya.
Ironically, Saiyeds in Pirana who filed a case against the disappearance of these treasures were arrested for looting and sent to the Sabarmati Central Jail. What did they loot? Prasad from the temple - jaggery, sugar and coconuts. Every day, offerings from the dargah are supposed to be given to the Saiyeds. It is an old custom. But in 1998, the administration stopped the practice, in a move to further isolate the Saiyeds.

After an argument, they got the Saiyeds arrested for armed robbery. The present religious head, known as Nanakdas Kaka, who calls himself Guru Maharaj Jagatguru Satpant Acharya, denied that the missing documents or monuments ever existed. He told Frontline that the Satpanthi faith was a `Vedic religion', which had followers from various communities. When this writer asked him whether the shrine was a dargah or a mandir, he said, "Muslim followers call it dargah. It is a difference in language. But all donations are given by Hindus, not Muslims."

The dargah administration is adamant about discarding its 600-year-old history. But many devotees would not let them forget the past. It would take a miracle to free the chains now binding Imam Shah Bawa's followers
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will have to go there to verify why this happened and how. When I visited them and talked with the Kaka at that time, 1988 the Kaka of Pirani Darga was very adamant that Imam Shahis's Faith had its root in the Fatimid's not from HIndus.

I am now told that the Patidar community who constitute 70% of the Imam Shahis are hiding and have become Guptis. They are protecting their Nizari identity. But because of the persecutions they are not willing to communicate openly, even with Ismailis.

According to Mumtaz Ali Tajjdin, something similar to what is happening had previously happened when the Kakas of Pirana ploted against the Pirs and Syeds from Ismaili background that had come to reclaim the place.
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FreeLancer



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was roaming on U Tube and come across a Qawwali sung by late Amjad Sabri Qawwal. The theme of Qawwali is " ALI KE SAATH HAI ZAHRA KI SHADI". Also I have heard before such type of Qawwali sung by some Indian Qawwal.
There is an important couplet sung in this particular Qawwali and that is;
LADKA (LARKA MEANS BOY) HAI KHUDA KE GHAR KA
LADKI (LARKI MEANS GIRL) HAI NABI KE GHAR KI

Trans; Boy i.e Mowla Ali is from the house of Allah and girl i.e Bibi Fatima is from the house of Prophet Muhammad.

This reminds me a part from MOMIN CHETAMINI written by Syed Imam Shah.

TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEY JAL SHANAHU
AAPAN DONU NU AY CHHEY VAHVAAR. PART # 108

A serious question; Is Mowla Ali son of Allah according to Ginan? Farzand means son.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please stop making comment on sufi vocabulary. Mysticism is not found in Hindi-English dictionary and the rules of posting do not allow you to do a mockery of Imam's family, which you have done more than once on this Forum.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:

A serious question; Is Mowla Ali son of Allah according to Ginan? Farzand means son.
From the Batini perspective His father Hazarat Abu Talib was the Imam and Imams are of course Allah according to the same Granth verse 88:

8icon_cool.gif Eji Te satguru sahebjieay sreva kari
Shukrana kidha ati apaar
Ali ne te allah orakhiyo
Te mahain shak na aanio lagaar Cheto.....

88. So Momins, serve that Lord and be thankful for Ali is Allah and do not
ever doubt it.

Hence Hazarat Ali was the son of Allah.

The following is an excerpt from Nasiruddin Tusi's 'Paradise of Submission' which illuminates the concept of Imamat.

$375] But, relatively speaking and [according to the
saying], 'Through an appearance [of the Imam] which is relative to the
people [in the realms], not a real manifestation in his essence,' he
has a kind of appearance in each of these realms [of relative being]
for the sake of [sustaining] their existence. For if he did not make
an appearnce and cast a glance upon each of these realms, and if each
of these realms did not have some relation and connection with him,
they would have no existence at all. Thus, in this respect, in terms
of relativity, he has been and always will be manifest in this world.
It is from this perspective [the Imam appears as] both father and son,
sometimes a child and sometimes an old man, and so forth.
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FreeLancer



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
Please stop making comment on sufi vocabulary. Mysticism is not found in Hindi-English dictionary and the rules of posting do not allow you to do a mockery of Imam's family, which you have done more than once on this Forum.


I do not mind your bashing, I am habitual of it. I debate with proofs. You can find word sufism related to yoga in Hindi dictionary.
In Ginan the word used is "FARJAND" which in Urdu and Farsi is FARZAND means SON.
The words of song and Ginan speaks for themselves. This qavita is not written by me. I myself is against usage of such words, that LADKA HAI KHUDA KE GHAR KA FOR ALI MURTAZA.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:

A serious question; Is Mowla Ali son of Allah according to Ginan? Farzand means son.
From the Batini perspective His father Hazarat Abu Talib was the Imam and Imams are of course Allah according to the same Granth verse 88:

8icon_cool.gif Eji Te satguru sahebjieay sreva kari
Shukrana kidha ati apaar
Ali ne te allah orakhiyo
Te mahain shak na aanio lagaar Cheto.....

88. So Momins, serve that Lord and be thankful for Ali is Allah and do not
ever doubt it.

Hence Hazarat Ali was the son of Allah.

The following is an excerpt from Nasiruddin Tusi's 'Paradise of Submission' which illuminates the concept of Imamat.

$375] But, relatively speaking and [according to the
saying], 'Through an appearance [of the Imam] which is relative to the
people [in the realms], not a real manifestation in his essence,' he
has a kind of appearance in each of these realms [of relative being]
for the sake of [sustaining] their existence. For if he did not make
an appearnce and cast a glance upon each of these realms, and if each
of these realms did not have some relation and connection with him,
they would have no existence at all. Thus, in this respect, in terms
of relativity, he has been and always will be manifest in this world.
It is from this perspective [the Imam appears as] both father and son,
sometimes a child and sometimes an old man, and so forth.



So already there was one God i.e Hazrat Abu Talib and in his presence another God Ali was born. Chi bu'al jaibi ast. He who is born can't be God. You are giving example of ESSENCE but in universe every particle has Allah's ESSENCE.
The Momin Chatamini with translation published by ITREB does not contain part 88 beside so many other parts with Hindu mythology characters. It was Ali who served Prophet (sat Gur) and Islam, and not other way.

Your quote by Tusi is not clear. Look at first couple of lines. These are confusing and translator has put his explanation in parenthesis which is his personal thinking.

$375] But, relatively speaking and [according to the
saying], 'Through an appearance [of the Imam] which is relative to the
people [in the realms], not a real manifestation in his essence,' he
has a kind of appearance in each of these realms [of relative being] ....
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:

So already there was one God i.e Hazrat Abu Talib and in his presence another God Ali was born. Chi bu'al jaibi ast. He who is born can't be God. You are giving example of ESSENCE but in universe every particle has Allah's ESSENCE.
The Momin Chatamini with translation published by ITREB does not contain part 88 beside so many other parts with Hindu mythology characters. It was Ali who served Prophet (sat Gur) and Islam, and not other way.
At any given time there can be more than one individual who is Fanna Fi Allah. Whereas others achieve/attain the state through personal effort and grace, the Ismaili Imams are born with this status and purity and hence they function in that capacity and are recognized as such.

Imam Hassan Ala Zikri his Salaam as quoted by Tusi in the Paradise of Submission (pg. 125) explains:

"The Imams, both outwardly and inwardly, both exoterically and esoteri-cally, issue from the pure line and loins of the Imam, one after another. The Imam is perfect when still in the form of sperm in the loins of his father and the pure womb of his mother. An Imam is always an Imam and always perfect. Otherwise, why should he say, 'The Imam knows from which drop of sperm the Imam after him will come?'116 If his being in the form of a drop of sperm or adult were not the same, he would not have said: 'His sperm was kneaded along with his intellect.'1" Their status looks different according to the way that our eyes perceive them. For example, sometimes [we see that the Imam is] a child, sometimes an old person, and sometimes a youth, and so forth, because although he does not change, it can be that we see him with our eyes as changing, or see him as two distinct persons, as a father and son.

Every particle does not contain the Divine Essence (Zaat). Only those who are Fanna would contain it. MSMS says in his Memoirs:

Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God. But men and women, being more highly developed, are immensely more advanced than the infinite number of other beings known to us.
FreeLancer wrote:

Your quote by Tusi is not clear. Look at first couple of lines. These are confusing and translator has put his explanation in parenthesis which is his personal thinking.

$375] But, relatively speaking and [according to the
saying], 'Through an appearance [of the Imam] which is relative to the
people [in the realms], not a real manifestation in his essence,' he
has a kind of appearance in each of these realms [of relative being] ....

What is the confusion?
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FreeLancer



Joined: 13 Feb 2018
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:

So already there was one God i.e Hazrat Abu Talib and in his presence another God Ali was born. Chi bu'al jaibi ast. He who is born can't be God. You are giving example of ESSENCE but in universe every particle has Allah's ESSENCE.
The Momin Chatamini with translation published by ITREB does not contain part 88 beside so many other parts with Hindu mythology characters. It was Ali who served Prophet (sat Gur) and Islam, and not other way.
At any given time there can be more than one individual who is Fanna Fi Allah. Whereas others achieve/attain the state through personal effort and grace, the Ismaili Imams are born with this status and purity and hence they function in that capacity and are recognized as such.

Imam Hassan Ala Zikri his Salaam as quoted by Tusi in the Paradise of Submission (pg. 125) explains:

"The Imams, both outwardly and inwardly, both exoterically and esoteri-cally, issue from the pure line and loins of the Imam, one after another. The Imam is perfect when still in the form of sperm in the loins of his father and the pure womb of his mother. An Imam is always an Imam and always perfect. Otherwise, why should he say, 'The Imam knows from which drop of sperm the Imam after him will come?'116 If his being in the form of a drop of sperm or adult were not the same, he would not have said: 'His sperm was kneaded along with his intellect.'1" Their status looks different according to the way that our eyes perceive them. For example, sometimes [we see that the Imam is] a child, sometimes an old person, and sometimes a youth, and so forth, because although he does not change, it can be that we see him with our eyes as changing, or see him as two distinct persons, as a father and son.

Every particle does not contain the Divine Essence (Zaat). Only those who are Fanna would contain it. MSMS says in his Memoirs:

Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God. But men and women, being more highly developed, are immensely more advanced than the infinite number of other beings known to us.
FreeLancer wrote:

Your quote by Tusi is not clear. Look at first couple of lines. These are confusing and translator has put his explanation in parenthesis which is his personal thinking.

$375] But, relatively speaking and [according to the
saying], 'Through an appearance [of the Imam] which is relative to the
people [in the realms], not a real manifestation in his essence,' he
has a kind of appearance in each of these realms [of relative being] ....

What is the confusion?


Please do not adopt dual theory. Is Imam born as Imam or is he Imam because of Fana fi Allah?
Imam should be only one at a time. It is absurd to say Imam in sperm or in making or in womb, or potential. Is father's sperm Noorani, if it is Noorani then what about Imam's other children. Are they Noorani too because of same father? Sperm have millions of cells and genetic code is same for all.

Every particle created by Allah contain His Noor as essence. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah's quote from Memoirs is, what I am saying:

LAHU KHURSHED KA TAPKE GAR ZAREY KA DIL CHEEREI(N).

What Tusi said in paragraph;
1.Relatively speaking..... relatively with whom?
2. According to saying..... saying by whom?
3. Appearance of Imam which is relative to people of realm not a real manifestation in his essence...... confusion, not a real manifestation in his essence!!
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:
Please do not adopt dual theory. Is Imam born as Imam or is he Imam because of Fana fi Allah?
The Imams are born in the state of Fanna Fi Allah. They do not have to work towards it like others.
FreeLancer wrote:

Imam should be only one at a time. It is absurd to say Imam in sperm or in making or in womb, or potential. Is father's sperm Noorani, if it is Noorani then what about Imam's other children. Are they Noorani too because of same father? Sperm have millions of cells and genetic code is same for all.
The sperm that would result in the creation of the Imam would be Nurani as per the quote of the Imam that I mentioned. It does not apply to Imam's other children.

There is one actual Imam known to the world and there can be a potential Imam only known to the Imam himself.
FreeLancer wrote:

Every particle created by Allah contain His Noor as essence. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah's quote from Memoirs is, what I am saying:
Of course there are degrees of Nur. The Nur in the particle is not the same as the Nur in the Imam.
FreeLancer wrote:

1.Relatively speaking..... relatively with whom?
Relative to different audiences - public, jamati, family, scholars etc
FreeLancer wrote:

2. According to saying..... saying by whom?
The saying is authoritative, its source is not important, since the entire saying has been quoted.
FreeLancer wrote:

3. Appearance of Imam which is relative to people of realm not a real manifestation in his essence...... confusion, not a real manifestation in his essence!!
The Imam expresses himself according to the capacity of his audience. He will not demonstrate his essential nature to everyone.
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aatimaram



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting!
Imam is born in the state of Fana fi Allah!
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ARTICLE BY JITU MISHRA

IMAMSHAH BAVA - SATPANTH

Pir Imamuddin 'Kufr e shikan' (Imamshah Bawa) Pirana Dargah

Long back, I had read a popular story in one of India’s leading fortnight magazines, the Outlook on Sufism, which has been bringing Hindus and Muslims together in this vast country for the last thousand years. It said: ‘Islam in India was spread much less by sword than by the Sufis. After all, Sufism with its holy men, visions and miracles, and its emphasis on individual search for union with god, has always borne remarkable similarities to the mystical side of Hinduism. Under Sufi influence it was particular at the level of village folk worship that two religions fused into one, with many ordinary Hindus visiting the graves of Sufi Pirs, while Muslim villagers would leave offering at temples to ensure the birth of children and good harvest.

The above quote had left a strong footprint deep in my heart, yet I had never got chance to witness the essence of the fusion of two faiths at a village level. It was last Sunday, I was finally dragged into the abode of one of rural Ahmedabad’s Sufi Dargha at Pirana, a village located about 20 km from the centre of Ahmedabad. Before I made the foray I had read and was told that the Sufi shrine at Pirana has sustained a unique faith even after 550 years of his foundation. But my experience led me to believe that all is not well in today’s Pirana.

The Sufi Dargha, a pearl white Islamic shrine located at the heart of the village is quite unique. Unlike most of the Islamic shrines, where the flags atop are green in colour, at Pirana it is white, reflecting peace. The dargha is of Hazrat Imamshah, a Sufi saint revered by both Muslims and Hindus. Hazrat Imamshah Bava was the founder of a unique sect known as Sath Panth (the true path) which merged the best practices of Hinduism and Islam.

I reached around 8 AM at the centre of the village. While driving to the village from the distance I could see a tall watch tower and a cluster of buildings. On the top of the watch tower was written ‘Om’, the Hindu sacred sign. I raised doubt and considered it to be a temple, not a mosque or dargha. With the guidance of a few locals I reached the dargha of Syed Muhhamad Shah, who was the son of Hazrat Imam Shah. The dargha is pearl white in appearance and topped with a crescent, the mark of Islam. It is surrounded by a courtyard and enclosure consisting of living quarters similar to ones of many Hindu Haveli temples. Within the courtyard and in the dargha itself lie a number of burial chambers of deceased Sayeds, who were mostly descendents of Hazrat Imamshah. When I entered the dargha I was first moved by the sight of seeing an ‘Om’ engraved in a plate hanging from the wall deep inside the dargha. I was puzzled about its identity. Soon, I met the priest, who appeared more Hindu than an Imam. Later, when he revealed his name, it was confirmed that he was a Hindu Priest and most of the rituals carried out in the dargha are in Hindu manner. A mosque is attached to dargha, which is almost closed now and I was too discouraged to enter its premise. A couple of minutes later, I met a group of three people, a mother, her son and daughter-in-law, accompanied by a Swami (Hindu Priest), who had come from all the way of Mandsur in Madhya Pradesh for a divine darshan and also with a desire to get divine blessing for the cure of a disease, the man was suffering from. The priest asked him to sit on a divine stone and rotate his body, and while doing so pray to Imam Saheb for the cure. The man followed the instruction and made rotation of his body over the stone with a pure faith. It was almost a sight of medieval time, when mystic Sufism had made profound impact on lay Hindus through such healing tactics.

Though initially I was fascinated towards the elements of fusion of two religions, but as I spent time and observed the daily chores I started feeling the religious politicisation. My intention was however not to dig into the political controversies that is ripping apart the core values in Sath Panth. I moved out of dargha and my curiosity led me to the neighbouring trust office, a sprawling complex crammed with modern structures and a garden. The devotees from Madhya Pradesh also followed me. As I spread myself more inside the trust complex, I was disturbed more by looking at the modern ugly buildings that are encroaching upon the historical structures. I moved out to the bazaar on the main road with an intention to meet someone who could explain me about Sufism and Sath Panth.

For a couple of minutes, I wandered around the streets that were filled with shops selling roses and chaddars (cloths) for the devotees to darghas at Pirana. There were a few eateries too selling local snacks. But all seemed to be busy at their work and hence I did not disturb. After a couple of minutes I reached before a small store selling articles of daily needs and readymade snacks. The shop is owned by Sayedbhai, a Muslim gentleman from the village, who is in his mid-sixties. Sayedbhai could sense my intension and asked politely, may I help you...? It was a great relief for me as at last I found someone who could really help me understand the stories of Sufi mysticism. More than the stories, I was finding a friend.

Sayedbhai, who is a retired employee of Gujarat State Road Transport Corporation, is an entrepreneur now as he owns a small shop. He offered me a stool to sit and asked my identity. As the mutual trust prevailed, he revealed the story of Hazrat Imamshah.

Around the time of Sultan Muhammad Begda’s rule, some 550 years ago, Hazrat Imamshah Bava had come to Gujarat from Multan, in Pakistan. The era of Sultan Begda’s rule is often considered as the golden period of Gujarat’s history by historians, as besides progressive measures taken by the sultan, it was also the time of proliferation of mystic Sufi cult in various parts of Gujarat.

Imamshah Bava while travelling with his followers and cattle had arrived at Girmatha, a village located in the neighbourhood of Pirana. At Giramtha, they found that their cattle feed was almost over. So Imamshah instructed his followers to stop here and sent his chief follower to the village head (mukhia) for seeking help. The mukia said: “it is too difficult for us as the entire region is reeling through a severe drought for three years. We ourselves don’t have enough feed for our cattle, so how we offer help to others.

The follower returned back to Imamshah and revealed what the mukhia said. Imamshah said his followers to go and tell the village chief that in the evening of the day there would be heavy rain in the village and that would bring the curtail of drought down. It was indeed a Sufi miracle. The entire region got flooded in the evening including the village pond which had turned into a flat ground of dust was now filled with water. According to Sayedbhai, by the time, Imamshah had gone deep inside the pond and had taken his shelter in an elevated patch inside the water filled lake. Upon experiencing the miracle, the villagers thronged to the Sufi Pir, who had sheltered inside the pond. The villagers asked, “Sir, we pay our deep gratitude for your help. We want to meet you personally, but how can we go, since the pond is full of water, and we are not prepared for it.” The Pir said, “Don’t worry, when you enter, the water will recede”. It happened.

After a couple of days, the miracle power of the Sufi Pir had spread far and wide. Once, the local Hindus, mostly belonging to Lohan and Patel communities had wishes to visit Kashi and Mathura, the ultimate abodes of Gods of Hindu followers. But it was quite expensive and time consuming on those days. Than it was also risk to life while travelling at unknown places. Reaching upon the Pir, the Imam said, “Folks, you can experience Mathura and Kashi here itself, why to risk life and spend money than”. The Hindus first did not believe, but as the miracle happened they were bound to trust and became the followers of Imamshah.

Sayedbhai said, it was the beginning of two communities coming together and the founding of the Sath Panth cult. While narrating these stories, I found Sayedbhai had become quite emotional as it was all about his roots. I also discovered the spiritual stress inside him as the recent politics in Sath Panth has weakened its core values.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Imam Shahi Isma'ili `Satpanth': 'The True Path' Threatened by Hindutva Juggernaut

April 12th, 2011

Yoginder Sikand

Centuries of interaction between Islam and local Indian religious traditions have given birth to a number of reformist sects, new communities and liminal groups that cannot be neatly classified in any sense as unambiguously either 'Hindu' or 'Muslim'. In terms of numbers and influence one of the largest of such groups are the Imam Shahis, who number almost a million and are scattered in various parts of Gujarat, Maharashtra and Madhya Pradesh. Unique in terms of its harmonious blending of Hindu and Muslim forms and concepts, the Imam Shahi tradition, or Satpanth (`The True Path') as its followers call it, is today under grave threat today as right-wing Hindutva groups seek to forcibly absorb it into the amorphous Hindu fold.

The origins of the Imam Shahi sect can be traced back to the twelfth century, when the Isma'ili Shi'a Muslim missionary, Hazrat Sayyed Shamsuddin, more popularly known as Pir Shams, Shamas Rishi or Nur Satgur ('the light of the True Guru'), arrived in Patan, in Gujarat, from Syria in the reign of the king Siddharaja Jayasingha [1094-1143]. He made numerous converts to the Isma'ili faith, which he sought to interpret in local Hindu terms, giving it the name of Satpanth or 'the true path'. He is credited with the conversion of Siddharaja Jayasingha and a large number of Hindus belonging to the Lohana trading caste. The ruler of the neighbouring kingdom of Dharanagari, Raja Surchand, is also said to have become his disciple, and to have given his daughter, Palande, to him in marriage.

Fourth in line of succession from Pir Shams was Pir Sadruddin al-Hussaini, also known by the Hindu names of Baba Guru ('The Great Teacher'), Sahadev and Harichand. Like Pir Shams, Pir Sadruddin also clothed his Isma'ili Shi'a doctrines in Hindu terms, writing numerous sacred texts known as ginans, which represent a curious blend of Hindu Bhakti and Isma`ili Shi'a concepts and beliefs. The most important of his works was the Das Avatar or 'the ten incarnations', in which the stories of the nine incarnations of the Hindu god Vishnu are related and then Vishnu's tenth avatar is presented in the form of 'Ali, son-in-law of the Prophet Muhammad, the first Imam of the Shi'as and the fourth Caliph of the Sunnis. This blend of Hindu and isma'ili motifs is also strikingly evident in another of Pir Sadruddin's works, Chhatis Crore, where reference is made to the Hindu concept of the four ages (yugas) and to the millions of souls that are said to have been saved in earlier ages by the Hindu religious figures Raja Harishchandra and Yudhishtra and of a similar number who have attained salvation in the present age of evil by following the Isma'ili Satpanth.

Pir Sadruddin stridently opposed the ritualism associated with popular religious practice as well as caste oppression, and this accounted, in large measure, for the popularity of the Satpanth among the `lower' and trading castes. In his Sakhi Samrani Granth ('The Book of Good Advice Worthy of Remembrance'), he writes of the falsity of soulless ritualism, and creatively interprets the Brahminical 'holy' thread as 'a hundred kiriyas [noble deeds]' instead. 'Only those who attain communion with the guru Brahma-ji are the real Brahmins', he declares in a biting critique of the caste system, adding that 'such people alone are those who know the brahmagyan' or knowledge of the Divine mysteries.

Pir Sadruddin died at Ucch Sharif in Bahawalpur in southern Punjab in 1380, and was succeeded by his son, Pir Hasan Kabiruddin. Like his father, Pir Kabiruddin was the author of numerous ginans, which, again, represent a striking synthesis of Hindu and Islamic concepts. Thus, in his Anant Akhado, he equates Allah with the Hindu Ishvar, Muhammad with 'Guru Brahma', and Fatima, daughter of Muhammad, with Sita, wife of Ram. All these figures, he says, were 'the perfect ones of their age'. He also speaks of the Qur'an as being the fourth and final Veda, the Atharva Veda, and of India, which he refers to by the Sanskrit name Jambudwipa, as being the final meeting place for all the holy men of the world. He also uses the same name to refer to the 'eternal home' of the soul that has attained salvation. Each verse of the lengthy poem ends with the distinctly Hindu cry of Hari Anant! Or God, the Eternal!.

Pir Kabiruddin insisted that the Satpanth that he preached 'encompassed all paths to God' and that the 'Husband' or God 'plays mysteriously in many forms'. Elsewhere, the Pir expressed this understanding of the oneness of humankind thus:

0 Lord! The Hindus and Muslims are together one being
The Lord has simply given them different forms and shapes
Without real recognition of this fact all is darkness
0 Lord! You are the Eternal One.

Pir Kabiruddin died at Ucch and immediately after there was a split in the ranks of the Satpanthis over the matter of succession to his leadership. Those who chose to follow his brother, Pir Tajuddin, later went on to form what is today known as the Khoja Isma'ili sect, today more popularly known as the Aga Khanis, followers of the Aga Khan. The others, who pledged allegiance to his youngest son Imam Shah, became known as Imam Shahis.

Born in the middle of the fifteenth century, Imam Shah was nineteen when his father died. In order to be appointed as the leader of the Isma'ili Satpanthis in India after his father's death, Imam Shah travelled to Iran to meet the head of the Isma'ilis, Imam Muhammad bin Islam Shah. He, however, was not successful in his mission, as Imam Muhammad had already appointed his uncle Tajuddin to the post. Imam Shah then returned to Gujarat, accompanied by his favourite disciple Hazir Beg. Gradually, he won a large following among the peasant castes in the region, who came to see him as a saint.

According to popular lore, once Imam Shah was stopped by a Sunni maulvi, who demanded to know why he did not pray five times a day. Instead of replying, Imam Shah is said to have made the minaret of the local mosque bend in prayer to him, thus suggesting the superiority of inner prayer to outwardly forms, a key Satpanthi Imam Shahi belief. When the Sunni Muslim Sultan of Gujarat, Mahmud Begda [149-1511], heard of this, he called Imam Shah to the royal court at Ahmedabad and decided to test his piety by serving him cat's meat to eat. On Imam Shah's call, it is said, the cat jumped out alive and ran away. He then turned to the Sultan and said: 'Now you are lost [begda]'. It is from this incident that the Sultan got his epithet.

According to the story, Imam Shah later forgave the Sultan for his insolence. The Sultan offered to empty his treasury for him, but he declined, accepting only a simple bullock cart from him. Sitting on the cart, Imam Shah left Ahmedabad and, crossing the Sabarmati river, arrived at the village of Giramtha. It is said that here he performed so many miracles that the villagers, all of whom became his disciples, insisted that he settle down there. From that time onwards, the village began to be known as Pirana or 'the coming of the Pir'.

Like the Satpanthi Pirs before him, Imam Shah sought to preach the Isma'ili religion by expressing it in Hindu forms so as to make it more easily intelligible to the local populace. Thus, he taught that Nur Satgur, the first of the Isma'ili Pirs in Gujarat, was none other than Brahma, that he himself was Indra or 'Sayyed Sadguru Patra Brahma Indra Imam Shah', and that his son, Nur Muhammad Shah, was an avatar of Vishnu.

Imam Shah died in 1513, and was buried at an imposing mausoleum at Pirana, some ten miles from Ahmedabad. In his lifetime he had five principle disciples: Hazir Beg, Bhabha Ram, Naya Kaka, Shana Kaka and Chichi Bai. In his will, Imam Shah had left detailed instructions for them, ordering all, except for Shana Kaka, to settle away from Pirana. He also instructed his son Nur Muhammad Shah to assume the leadership of the community. Nur Muhammad was married to the daughter of Mahmud Shah Begda, the Sultan of Gujarat, from whom he had two sons, Sayyed Mustafa and Sayyed Shahabuddin. Their descendants are known as the Imam Shahi Sayyeds, and they have inherited the establishment at Pirana. Imam Shah also had another son, Sayyed Khan, from his marriage with the daughter of Punja Singh, a Rajput from Bhavnagar. The descendants of Sayyed Khan, known as Sayyed Khanis, later went on to form their own sect with their centre at Navsari. Nur Muhammad died in 1534 and was also buried at Pirana.

Over time, the Imam Shahi sect expanded across large parts of present-day Gujarat, Maharashtra and Madhya Pradesh. Many of those who joined the sect, mostly from the peasant Patel/Kunbi community, remained outwardly Hindu, retaining their Hindu customs, dress and culture. They were known variously as Kutchi Patels, Matia Kanbis or Gupti Momins or 'secret believers'. The leadership of the community reflected this Hindu-Muslim synthesis: both the unambiguously `Muslim' Imam Shahi Sayyeds and the externally `Hindu' Gupti Momin Kakas of Pirana were considered the rightful heirs of the legacy of Imam Shah by his followers.

In recent years, the Hindu right-wing has witnessed a tremendous growth in Gujarat. This has been accompanied by relentless attacks on Muslims, as well as Christians, and efforts by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad to convert local non-Hindu groups to Hinduism. All this has not left the Imam Shahis of Pirana unaffected. They, too, are now victims of forces that seem well beyond their control. Influential people connected with the Vishwa Hindu Parishad are now attempting to completely change the character of the Pirana shrine, and along with it, the Imam Shahi cult itself.

The matter has now reached the courts, with a group of Imam Shahis of Pirana accusing the present Kaka or administrator and managing trustee of the Imam Shah Bawa Roza Trust, Karsankaka Saujikaka, of attempting to convert the tomb of Imam Shah into a Hindu temple. In their petition to the Gujarat High Court, they have accused the Gujarat government authorities of 'turning a blind eye' to the matter and the Gujarat Charities' Commissioner of 'colluding with' the Kaka to prevent the Imam Shahis, both Hindus as well as Muslims, 'from professing, practising and propagating' their traditional rituals by Hinduising them. This, they say, is tantamount to an illegal interference with the religious rights of the one thousand families who are descended from Imam Shah, the five thousand 'staunch followers [of the Imam], both Hindus as well as Muslims' and the almost one million 'Darshanarthis' of Imam Shah, who belong to various different religious communities.

According to the petitioners, the administration of the Pirana shrine or dargah was smoothly carried out jointly by the Imam Shahi Sayyeds and the Gupti Momin Kakas for more than five centuries. In 1939 the shrine was made into a public trust, and it was to be managed by the Kaka as the administrator, who was to be appointed jointly by the Muslim Sayyeds and the Hindu followers of Imam Shah. The dargah, say the petitioners, was maintained 'in accordance with full Islamic procedure', with a mosque functioning in the dargah complex.

The present Kaka, the twenty-eighth in succession, was appointed to the post in 1986. According to the petitioners, this Kaka continued with the traditional, largely Islamic, practices of the dargah till 1990. From then, they allege, he 'started acting arbitrarily', 'using trust property as if it was his own', and 'tampering with the religious rites of the community?an integral part of their religion'. He replaced some of these traditional practices 'with new rites and customs which are unknown to the faith of the Satpanthis'.

Among these subtle changes that the present Kaka, who is believed to be close to the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, is accused of having made is Hinduising the literature of the Imam Shah is by removing the Muslim symbols of the crescent and star in the holy books of the sect and replacing them by the Hindu 'Om', and introducing in them what he has termed as Satpanth Yagna Vidhi or Brahminical mantras for sacrifices'. The petitioners argue that the authentic Imam Shahi Satpanthi tradition actually has no concept whatsoever of such sacrifices or yagnas. In the literature that the present Kaka has published, the Pirana dargah, as it has traditionally been known, is referred to, instead, as the Prerana Pith, the word pith being the term used for a Brahminical centre of pilgrimage. The Kaka, who now describes himself as Acharya Karsandasji Maharaj, is also accused of transforming the building containing the dholia, the bed of Imam Shah, into a Hindu temple, installing idols of Vishnu and Ganesh inside. Further, he has also reportedly ordered the discontinuing of the practice of reading the fatiha, the opening verse of the Quran, at the dargah and has also cut off the water and electricity supplies to the mosque inside the dargah complex.

The petitioners state that a large number of Imam Shahis, both Muslims as well as Hindus, 'have come out to protest, opposing the virtual conversion of the shrine' by the Kaka. Yet, they say, the government has done nothing to redress the issue. And, it appears, if the Kaka and his backers continue to have their way, this unique Ismaili tradition will soon be on the brink of extinction.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have met in 2016/2017 with the faction that has remained Muslim, they also have rival syeds as head of sub-branches while only a unified position can be a win win position. I have also met the Kaka who has transformed the shrine and promoted distance from the ancient faith. So much so that within the Imamshahis community, we have Pehli chopri wara (who follow the original manuscripts) and biji chopri wara (following the re-printed and the re-written ginans)

There is however some among them who are trying to save their manuscripts by scanning them before they are thrown into the river. Among those I met, there are some who preach that Satpanth is neither Hindu nor Muslim, Satpanth is Satpanth and has to be accepted as is.

There are matters in Court and there are people who have been jailed. After the riots some years back against Muslims, many people in Pirana live in fear to disclose their Muslim beliefs and this has let to the "hinduisation" of the shrine.

The ownership and use of the funds is at the base of the disputes and the weakness has been exploited.

Athias in Pirana, whose numbers are dwindling, have mostly joined the Imamshahis of the biji chopri, introducing even cow idols into their places of worships as can be seen in the Athia shrine in Pirana.

All this is very sad and has weakened their community.

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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Feel good to read your summary about visit of Pirana and got handy account of what tussle is going on in different factions. My question, did you collected some old manuscripts of Ginans from Imamshahis during your visit?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
did you collected some old manuscripts of Ginans from Imamshahis during your visit?


Yes dozens. Dating from 1744 to 1924. There is one with the 73 prayers of ImamShahis. In another manuscript, the scribe complains that he has been payed only 13 rupees for writing it for a duration of 13+ months. In another the scribe says that he was asked to transcribed in Gujrati from a Khojki manuscript belonging to an Ismailis Khoja and though he disagreed strongly with the content, he still did an accurate transcription for Bawa Ehmad Ali of Pirana, the then head of the Imamshahis and ancestor of the present "Hidden Pir of Imamshahis" as Dominique Sila Khan calls him. So our own works can be found copied in the collections of various splinter groups..
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swamidada



Joined: 18 Nov 2018
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for information and not discussion.
There is mention of ' Chunaib Nagri' in Ginans, some Ginan researchers have mentioned it's location is some where in China, where as some others wrote it is in Punjab. Lately I came across a town in Punjab. It's name is CHANAB NAGAR IN CHINIOTT in Pakistan. Still there are hundreds of Ismailis living in Chiniott.
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swamidada



Joined: 18 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NewsMagazine RELIGION
Hindus run a mosque in Gujarat
Hindus run a mosque.
UDAY MAHURKAR

November 15, 1987

ISSUE DATE: November 15, 1987UPDATED: December 16, 2013 12:10 IST
The Pirana mausoleum: Carrying on unique traditions
Eighteen kilometres from the communal tinder-box that is Ahmedabad, lies an oasis of communal tranquillity.
What makes the village of Pirana (population: about 800) special is that the years of bad blood in the neighbouring city haven't touched its residents. The bond that ties the people of Pirana is the 15th century mausoleum of a Muslim saint which is managed by Hindus.

Historical documents suggest that Sayyed Imamuddin Abdur-Rahim - better known as Imamshah Baba - came to this area in 1449 from Sindh, after his father's death, to preach the tenets of an order that came to be known as Satpanth dharma (the religion of truth).

So impressed were villagers by his spiritual prowess that apart from Muslims - who now make up half the population - Patels, Kolisand even Brahmins from nearby areas came to regard him as their beacon. Before taking samadhi in 1513, he selected Sanabhai, a Patel, to discharge religious functions. Ever since, the sect leader has always been a Patel. They are called Kaka and live and die bachelors.

Says Karsan Kaka, 45, the 22nd head of the sect: "According to the Baba, God could be attained through various paths. It did not require someone to change his religion." According to Karsan Kaka, in deference to his Hindu followers the Baba gave up eating meat and advised Muslims not to come to the mausoleum after eating meat either.

This tradition persists. Muslim residents don't eat meat within village limits and many of them are actually vegetarians. Not surprisingly, a number of tales are woven around Imamshah Baba's life and powers.

Hindu women offer their respects
Viewed from outside, it is a typical Sufi saint's mausoleum - humble in appearance but majestic in its simplicity.
The doors, pillars and panels of the sanctum sanctorum, however, carry richly engraved platings. And the domes are tipped with gold. The dargah of Shaikh Abdul Rahim Mirza Baig, a revered follower of the Baba, lies just opposite the mausoleum's entrance.

The mixture of people who make up the faith and the religious practices that are followed must be among the most curious in the country. Amongst Imamshah Baba's disciples are a large number of Patels from Kutch who walk the long way to Pirana every May to attend a popular fair held in the Baba's memory.

Another fair, held every year on the 25th day of Ramzan - to mark the death of Imamshah - also attracts a large number of Muslims and Hindus. Around Rs 15-lakh donated by followers to the trust that looks after the mausoleum, are used for maintenance and to run a free kitchen all the year round.

At the mausoleum, Hindus and Muslims line upon both sides of the entrance, chanting "Pirshah, Pirshah". Staunch Muslims use oil to light a lamp but the "Akhand Jyoti" (eternal flame), which is said never to have been extinguished since the Baba died, is sustained on ghee, in Hindu tradition.

Sadhus, who practise the faith, live in an adjoining dharamshala, wear saffron turbans, carry out puja at the mausoleum and distribute prasad in typically Hindu fashion.

Above everything else, it is Karsan Kaka's chamber that reflects the extraordinary secular ideals of this sect. On one wall hangs a portrait of Hazrat Alisaheb. Imamshah Baba's father, and on the other is an image of the Hindu goddess Gayatrimata.

Local residents are aware of the special place they occupy in a region torn by communal hatred and where suspicion and distrust are key words in the art of survival. Says Bakshi Ali Sayyed, 52, a Pirana resident: "We owe it all to the Baba who spread his gospel of truth and love."

Adds 54-year-old Balwant Singh, a Rajput: "Nowhere in the world is there a place like our village." It is no idle boast. Little, traditional Pirana could in any case teach modern Ahmedabad a thing or two.

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/religion/story/19871115-hindus-run-a-mosque-in-gujarat-799500-1987-11-15
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