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Dua Old and New

 
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amirhashim



Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:38 pm    Post subject: Dua Old and New Reply with quote

This topic is regarding the old and new dua. Those who submit their replies, the intention is to collect memories about an era. If you were around in 1956 during that time or have information then please share it with us. The intention is to gather information, not to cause controversies. This is for historical purposes only, and would like to remind everybody to reserve comments which cause conflict. 1. What do you remember of the dua changing from old to new? 2. What proof, firmans, talika, messages (councils or otherwise) were communicated in Jamat Khane at that time? 3. What proof do you have (critical evidence) that the Vishnu puri, Ali Sahi Allah, and Lizikri Sujood, were removed by the Imam in a written document or communicated? If so, what words were used? This information will be used for historical purposes and ties in with the new changes that Mowlana Hazar Imam is doing regarding Dua and Namaz.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1664

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are Farmans in KIM Volume 2, when new Arabic Dua was introduced. You may read it.
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amirhashim



Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:48 pm    Post subject: KIM Reply with quote

Star_munir, thank you for your reply but I asked specifically for your experience at that time. This is a topic to share what they remember. Along with that you must document your proof. Doesn't have to be long. The farman which you're referring to is dated 15-1-1951. What we're discussing is 1956. There were at least 10 versions of the dua before the one recited today. Kindly provide documentation and please don't quote of Hazer Imam (Karim) in 1956. That was simply a message. We're looking for the points mentioned above including specific quotes from Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah, as well as personal experiences of any Ismaili who remembers sitting in Jamat Khane and what was read in print. Who said what and when.
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nagib



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the purpose of your thread is to collect historical data, you may link this to other posts about the Asal Dua and the New Dua.

I know about the many changes around 1968/69 when the new Dua was finalized to what we recite today as this was the time when I was learning the Dua and it was absolutely maddening that almost every month we used to receive a circular from Supreme Council saying now you add this words and now you remove this word and now you come back to this version.

That was the time when at one of the international conference of the Ismailia Association Hazar Imam said he did not want 2 kind of Dua recited in his Jamat as Pakistan was reciting the Dua with allah humma laka sujoodi promoted by [Kasamali missionary] at the end of the chapters while Africa was reciting Lizikrihi soojood. [as prescribed by the Imam and defended by Shamshu Tejpar / Abuali]

We were hearing that in Syria Jamat there were fights amongst people who recited the way Imam had prescribed [Lizikrihi sujood] and the way Pakistan Association under whose jurisdiction the Syria Jamat was, was told to recite [wa taati]. When one Ismaili in Syria would meet another he would ask are you wa taati or lizikrihi sujood and they would go to different Jamatkahna. That was a sad period. See the discussion about related subject in Doctrines and Rites and ceremonies sections...

You may be able to compile some fact on the changes from various discussions at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=252&start=0

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=387&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1335&start=0

or better do a search in the Forum.

The changes from Asal Dua to Recent Dua in 1956 made by Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah were sent with a Talika and the present Dua [minus subsequent changes] recited by Shah Karim [who was not yet Imam] to the Madagascar Jamat. That Dua was published and recited throughout the Jamat but there was a problem because Pakistan was emerging as a Nation and the Ismailia Association at that time decided that it would not be wise to recited a Dua with a Sujudo [prosternation] to the Imam. There was also a strong pressure to recite Namaz to escape the persecutions from our so tolerant Muslim brothers [who keep killing each other still today for matter even less serious then this]. That let to the recitation of 2 different versions in the Ismaili jamat, according to their geography and culture in which they lived. I have read a correspondence between the Ismailia Association for Canada and that one of Pakistan in the late 1970s' where the Ismailia Association for Canada was telling its sister association that if they wanted to abandon Dua they should at least go for a Namaz as recited by the Fatimids and not go with the common Sunni namaz. I think this is the kind of document you need from 1956 onwards to complete this study.

Nagib
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From_Alamut



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 666

PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad and Salam

I suggest that if my Jamat would check this wonderful and humble Anila Ishani al-waez. Her waezing is based on our "Dua Philisophy", Mashallah it is amazing. The waezing contain two parts. The language is in English and the lecture is three hours.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/audio-waez-nodes?op0=contains&filter0=&filter1=&filter2[]=1734
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amirhashim



Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:12 am    Post subject: Wonderful Reply with quote

Nagib, that is excellent information. Thank you for replying so well. It must have been a very confusing period. If there was a division between lizikri sujood and allahuma laka sujoodi wa tati then lets try to understand that period in history. The significance being that lizikri sujood is direct after the Imam's name. Also, alfus salam was taken out in the 2nd part and the 5 holy bodies, namely Mohamed, Fatima, Ali, Hasan and Husein were inserted in the sixth part. Remember that before Ali's name it used to say in old dua: wachan Abu Talib Vali, linking Abu Talib and Ali. Nagib and everybody please join in and comment on your experiences so we can pieces together this very important article of dua.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: Wonderful Reply with quote

amirhashim wrote:
Nagib, that is excellent information. Thank you for replying so well. It must have been a very confusing period. If there was a division between lizikri sujood and allahuma laka sujoodi wa tati then lets try to understand that period in history. The significance being that lizikri sujood is direct after the Imam's name. Also, alfus salam was taken out in the 2nd part and the 5 holy bodies, namely Mohamed, Fatima, Ali, Hasan and Husein were inserted in the sixth part. Remember that before Ali's name it used to say in old dua: wachan Abu Talib Vali, linking Abu Talib and Ali. Nagib and everybody please join in and comment on your experiences so we can pieces together this very important article of dua.


I have been looking for a copy of the both the old dua and a the original version of the new dua - which as my mom tells me also had Fikhul Wujud? somwhere - whenever she recites the dua in JK that's what she ends up reciting as that's what she was taught.

Does anyone have a copy of the old dua in eformat?

Shams
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amirhashim



Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Fikhul Wujud
Regarding that part, can you please let us know what part your mother was referring to. Perhaps we can figure out where it is. Anybody who has the asal dual kindly help out. In our search for the events that took place in the changing of the dua, kindly also contribute the change in Gat Pat Dua. Both go hand in hand. The first part of the Gat Pat Dua invoked the name of Nakalank (Nakalanki naath). If you compare the asal dua and the new dua there are visible differences.

1. Amirul Momineen Ali Sahi Allah changed to Aliyyun Amirul Momineen Aliyullah. The syntax of the two is polar opposite; Amirul Momineen carefully placed interchanges the meaning. One being a title, the other being inclusive.

2. Ali Mohamed Yak Kuda changed to Ali Mohamed Noor Allah bar Hak, then was completely dropped.

3. Das Avtaar, including Abu Talib as the Imam prior to Ali was removed completely.

There is a version dated February 18th, 1950. A firman follows on that date. If that is true, then: why are there subsiquent versions afterwards? And if the changes were not suffice then why in 1954 there is a complete Gat Paat Dua, but a changed Dua? Since the firman says: I've changed the dua with my own hands, then was there a complete shift to an arabic dua? Remember, the dua we recite today is not really new. Parts of it can be found in the asal dua.

The new dua isn't really "new" at all. It's a carefully edited version of the asal dua. The second part, third part, and the lineage all belong to the original dua. That means there was a "systematic removal" of the identity of the Imam. Changing from him being a God, to him being a mortal like anybody else.

Such even those of you remember that there were pictures of the Imam at the front of the Jamat Khana up until around the 90's. Now you have 2 pictures, both interestingly facing the same direction, on the sides. It's a purposly crafted movement to remove the identity of the Imam. Now the children are confused and people question who the Imam is.

Now that the new "Namaz" is coming up, the question of identity was central in the Imam's taliqa. Let us gather information concerning the shift of 1956 and contribute to the events that took place. Continue submitting your ideas and comments.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amirhashim wrote:
Quote:
Fikhul Wujud
Regarding that part, can you please let us know what part your mother was referring to. Perhaps we can figure out where it is. Anybody who has the asal dual kindly help out. In our search for the events that took place in the changing of the dua, kindly also contribute the change in Gat Pat Dua. Both go hand in hand. The first part of the Gat Pat Dua invoked the name of Nakalank (Nakalanki naath). If you compare the asal dua and the new dua there are visible differences.

1. Amirul Momineen Ali Sahi Allah changed to Aliyyun Amirul Momineen Aliyullah. The syntax of the two is polar opposite; Amirul Momineen carefully placed interchanges the meaning. One being a title, the other being inclusive.

2. Ali Mohamed Yak Kuda changed to Ali Mohamed Noor Allah bar Hak, then was completely dropped.

3. Das Avtaar, including Abu Talib as the Imam prior to Ali was removed completely.

There is a version dated February 18th, 1950. A firman follows on that date. If that is true, then: why are there subsiquent versions afterwards? And if the changes were not suffice then why in 1954 there is a complete Gat Paat Dua, but a changed Dua? Since the firman says: I've changed the dua with my own hands, then was there a complete shift to an arabic dua? Remember, the dua we recite today is not really new. Parts of it can be found in the asal dua.

The new dua isn't really "new" at all. It's a carefully edited version of the asal dua. The second part, third part, and the lineage all belong to the original dua. That means there was a "systematic removal" of the identity of the Imam. Changing from him being a God, to him being a mortal like anybody else.

Such even those of you remember that there were pictures of the Imam at the front of the Jamat Khana up until around the 90's. Now you have 2 pictures, both interestingly facing the same direction, on the sides. It's a purposly crafted movement to remove the identity of the Imam. Now the children are confused and people question who the Imam is.

Now that the new "Namaz" is coming up, the question of identity was central in the Imam's taliqa. Let us gather information concerning the shift of 1956 and contribute to the events that took place. Continue submitting your ideas and comments.


It would be interesting to note and also capture the old/asal dua in english - as most only have it in Gujrati - if someone could transcribe it in English, that would be great.
In regards to parts of the old dua - we say parts of it daily - when we do dua karavi - tobho tobho - as well as after most of our tasbihs - Dua Niyat Khairji - that was one of the bigger sajdas in the old dua.

Shams
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prince_visram



Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 188

PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:
amirhashim wrote:
Quote:
Fikhul Wujud
Regarding that part, can you please let us know what part your mother was referring to. Perhaps we can figure out where it is. Anybody who has the asal dual kindly help out. In our search for the events that took place in the changing of the dua, kindly also contribute the change in Gat Pat Dua. Both go hand in hand. The first part of the Gat Pat Dua invoked the name of Nakalank (Nakalanki naath). If you compare the asal dua and the new dua there are visible differences.

1. Amirul Momineen Ali Sahi Allah changed to Aliyyun Amirul Momineen Aliyullah. The syntax of the two is polar opposite; Amirul Momineen carefully placed interchanges the meaning. One being a title, the other being inclusive.

2. Ali Mohamed Yak Kuda changed to Ali Mohamed Noor Allah bar Hak, then was completely dropped.

3. Das Avtaar, including Abu Talib as the Imam prior to Ali was removed completely.

There is a version dated February 18th, 1950. A firman follows on that date. If that is true, then: why are there subsiquent versions afterwards? And if the changes were not suffice then why in 1954 there is a complete Gat Paat Dua, but a changed Dua? Since the firman says: I've changed the dua with my own hands, then was there a complete shift to an arabic dua? Remember, the dua we recite today is not really new. Parts of it can be found in the asal dua.

The new dua isn't really "new" at all. It's a carefully edited version of the asal dua. The second part, third part, and the lineage all belong to the original dua. That means there was a "systematic removal" of the identity of the Imam. Changing from him being a God, to him being a mortal like anybody else.

Such even those of you remember that there were pictures of the Imam at the front of the Jamat Khana up until around the 90's. Now you have 2 pictures, both interestingly facing the same direction, on the sides. It's a purposly crafted movement to remove the identity of the Imam. Now the children are confused and people question who the Imam is.

Now that the new "Namaz" is coming up, the question of identity was central in the Imam's taliqa. Let us gather information concerning the shift of 1956 and contribute to the events that took place. Continue submitting your ideas and comments.


It would be interesting to note and also capture the old/asal dua in english - as most only have it in Gujrati - if someone could transcribe it in English, that would be great.
In regards to parts of the old dua - we say parts of it daily - when we do dua karavi - tobho tobho - as well as after most of our tasbihs - Dua Niyat Khairji - that was one of the bigger sajdas in the old dua.

Shams


I would also be very thankful to have a copy of the old Dua because I would love to read it but I don't have it english. Thank you and if you have it, please PM me, Thanks again!! Prince_Visram icon_biggrin.gif
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hungama25



Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The new dua isn't really "new" at all. It's a carefully edited version of the asal dua. The second part, third part, and the lineage all belong to the original dua. That means there was a "systematic removal" of the identity of the Imam. Changing from him being a God, to him being a mortal like anybody else.




the question is can a mortal be a god or god can be a mortal ????? if the answer is NO then what was the need for god to hide his own identity ?

is god scared ??
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 17980

PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hungama25 wrote:
the question is can a mortal be a god or god can be a mortal ????? if the answer is NO then what was the need for god to hide his own identity ?

is god scared ??


It is not a matter of hiding his identity. It is about appearing according to context and audience. There are many levels of understanding the Imam and therefore what is said in the Dua should reflect this diversity of understanding.

Each murid has his/her own relationship with the Imam. To some he is just a human being, to some a friend, to some a father and to some he is Khudavind. The Imam appears to each person according to his/her capacity to know him.
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goldfaizi



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad,

I really need old dua. I have tried alot to get old dua from Jamat Khana Library but i won't get it yet. Kindly PM me old dua whether it would be in english version or other. I will really appreciate it.

Thanks.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5604

PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is one version recited of the Asal Dua as recited during the time of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (cut and paste in your browser)

youtube.com/watch?v=z2QsXkhNwlI&feature=youtu.be
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mahebubchatur



Joined: 13 Jan 2014
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:06 am    Post subject: Old Dua text and meaning Reply with quote

Here is one version recited of the Asal Dua as recited during the time of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (cut and paste in your browser)


If anyone has the text and the meaning can you please post here.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5604

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is one translation of the Asal Dua (not the Asal Ghat Pat ji Dua) on this website

It is in the restricted secton. To get the pasword of the R.E. section write an email to heritage@ismaili.net

http://sun.ismaili.net/re/dua.html
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If any one wants our "Old dua" composed by Pir Sadardin in Gujarati, which was recited almost 600 years in Indo-Pak subcontinents JKs then please e-mail me.

Only thing you have to prove me that you are an Ismailis!
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 17980

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In September 1956, Imam Mawlana Sultan Muhammad Shah sent a Special Holy Message to the Jamats in Africa, which was brought and read out by Mawlana Hazar Imam (Shah Karim), and which contained the following passage:

"One of Mowlana Hazar Imam's greatest wishes is being accomplished now: the Du'a will be soon translated into Arabic. Since the 8th century, that is to say the birth of our great religion, Arabic has been the language of Islam. It is probably the most beautiful and most complete of all languages spoken today. For these reasons Mowlana Hazar Imam is very firm in his wish that you should learn the Du'a in Arabic when it is ready."

This new Du'a in Arabic was first introduced in Syria some time before September 1956. Thereafter it was introduced in Africa in accordance with the above-mentioned Holy Message of Mawlana Sultan Muhammad Shah.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5604

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
This new Du'a in Arabic was first introduced in Syria some time before September 1956. Thereafter it was introduced in Africa in accordance with the above-mentioned Holy Message of Mawlana Sultan Muhammad Shah.


The last Dua prescribed by the 48th Imam in 1956 continued AS PRESCRIBED up to 1969. (Except in India and Pakistan)

Here is an example of it from the book published in Tanzania.




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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5604

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The date is not found in this book, however the first book published in 1956 had "Sultan Muhammad Shah lizikrihi sujud" but this one has Shah Karim lizikihi sujud. From memory, the book was printed around 1965 or 1966.

Up to 1964, the country was named Tanganyika, not Tanzania but this book says Tanzania so it came out after the name of the country changed on 29 October 1964. (Tanganyika + Zanzibar = Tanzania)

There will be a complete study of the evolution of the Dua from the time of 40th Imam Nizar II up to today's 49th Imam. We hope that this will be completed in a couple of years, maybe more. Once it is ready. it will be made available to all. We are still in the process to scan and identify all versions of the Dua in print in various script as well as in manuscripts. We are doing the same exercise with all the version through time of the Ismaili Constitution starting 1905.

We will not post scans of entire books in the Forum, there is a new document server being set to host the large number of scans.

Be patient
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
The date is not found in this book, however the first book published in 1956 had "Sultan Muhammad Shah lizikrihi sujud" but this one has Shah Karim lizikihi sujud. From memory, the book was printed around 1965 or 1966.

Up to 1964, the country was named Tanganyika, not Tanzania but this book says Tanzania so it came out after the name of the country changed on 29 October 1964. (Tanganyika + Zanzibar = Tanzania)

There will be a complete study of the evolution of the Dua from the time of 40th Imam Nizar II up to today's 49th Imam. We hope that this will be completed in a couple of years, maybe more. Once it is ready. it will be made available to all. We are still in the process to scan and identify all versions of the Dua in print in various script as well as in manuscripts. We are doing the same exercise with all the version through time of the Ismaili Constitution starting 1905.

We will not post scans of entire books in the Forum, there is a new document server being set to host the large number of scans.

Be patient


This was published in 1972. I have the same book.

Shams
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5604

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no date on the book. Following a circular of the Supreme Council, we stopped reciting this Dua in 1969. There is post above in the thread that explains that Hazar Imam did not bring these changes.

There is no Farmans to change this Dua though some mistaken people think there is one. The decision to change was left with the word Ismailia Association meeting, basically between Pakistan (Kassamali) and Africa Ismaili Association (Tejpar) to decide. The only instruction of the Imam at that conference in Nairobi was that he did not want 2 different Duas recited by Ismailis. All this has been discussed in length previously. The Imam never said to discontinue Liikrihi Sujud, the decision was made at that Conference by the leaders of the then Ismaili Association.

It is unlikely that Tanzania Ismaili Association would print the Liikrihi Sujud Dua after the circular of the Supreme Council of 1969 but of course if you have a date in your version, it would be interesting to see. You can send me a photo to heritage@ismaili.net and I will post it here.

We need to ascertain at what date the new Dua was printed in Africa and what date was the last publication of the Lizikrihi Sujud Dua in Africa so we can be precise on the history of the Dua.
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