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time period of jugs and avatar
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 17967

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

What these fallowing parts of Anant Akhado (which you have mentioned) to do with the momentarily appearance of Avtars.

Aashaajee Vadhaaiyun tannaa evaa fal paamo
paamo Gur-ne haathe jee
darshan devaa am ghar aave
maher hui maherbaanee...................Haree anant..403

Aashaajee Das-me avtaare evaa thaine chaalo
chheli kaayaa keedhee jee
chhelaa jiv Saami ugaari leeyo
karo anant vadhaaiyun...................Haree anant..437

These are not the only two verses but they give the range of verses which allude to momentary appearance of the non-human Avatars. Hence you have to consider all the verses between verse 403 and verse 437 not just the two.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

How! Modern science is after producing chemical weapons, atomic missiles, laser rays weapons, cloned armies, star wars futuristic weapons, F-35 then F-45, or science will unearth some more mummys to shed light on.
Science is evolving. The understanding of science 200 years hence will be different than the present understanding. Just as it was incomprehensible 100 years ago that we will one day fly by aircraft.


But modern science is mostly used for destructive purposes or money making. The countries who have dangerous weapons and higher fire power are threatening to destroy other countries or black mailing them.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

This is what Hazar Imam is doing instead of Pir Hasan. Naklanki is not creating institutions for salvation but it is his guidance through which an adept shall get salvation.
Satya Yoga was world of ocean creatures mainly fishes. So he has to take Avtar of Fish to explain fishes. Fishes will not understand English.
My understanding from the Anant Akhado was that Pir Hasan Kabirdeen was granted the responsibility of the salvation of countless souls whether they are in this world or in the astral worlds. Hence we recite Ashaji daily as a prayer/supplication of Pir Hasan Kabirdeen.

Satya Yuga was not filled with fish. There were human beings for whom the Lord assumed non-human forms to accomplish certain tasks. In fact it was a period called the Golden Age of advancement.

You are confusing evolution with the appearance of Avatars. There is no relationship.


Evolution is among the laws of nature. I do not believe in monkey theory by
Darwin. Why in past 1000 years monkeys are not turned as humans?
Few parts of Asha ji are recited and not the parts you prescribed. One compulsory is SANDHIYA VERA.
Why MSMS insisted on Fish if there were no fishes in first Yuga?
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adopted:

During Satyug, which God and Goddesses people used to worship?

Ramesh Sundar, BK from Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University (2007)
Answered Jan 27, 2018.

During satyug earth was heaven. No issues, no god., no prayers. All are happy. God is one. He is the father of all souls in the world, Supreme soul (point of light present in soul/Silence world - Golden reddish region above universe). Souls are immortal comes down to earth to play its role in drama cycle. Soul a tiny star, present in the center of the forehead can experience a connection with the Supreme Soul by thoughts(meditation -a way to remove sin).

Golden Age (Satyuga) Only 900000 souls to start with. All are Soul Consciousness & happy, have the Power to adjust, tolerate, discriminate, judge, face, Pack-up, Withdraw, Co-operate. Everything is made up of gold here. No lust, anger, greed, attachment and ego. Child were born through transfer of soul power. No God,No prayer.

Silver Age (ThrethaYuga) It is similar to Golden age, but gold is replaced by Silver. The people who lived in Golden age and Silver age are called Deities.People are worshiping them, but they are also living among them after rebirth.Also weather is not too cold or hot. Heaven (1 Kingdom, 1 religion, 1 language, Max population : 330000000) is the Gods gift to good souls .

Copper Age (DwabaraYyuga) & IRON Age (KaliYuga) - Hell : Soul conscious to body conscious. Peoples sin (actions out of lust, Anger,greed, attachment,ego etc) converts heaven to hell, The soul loses its purity and experience sorrow.The peoples from heaven also take part after rebirth(angel form for few days after death to human status based on karma). Many languages, Many religions.

God comes to earth in old body and makes (330 million) people worthy to live in heaven through spiritual knowledge (remaining souls will be resting in soul world, will play its part at allotted time and also powerful in first few births). End of world through destruction through nature/human actions(only small group remain every 5000 yrs). All souls go back to soul world and the same drama repeats again.

God - Bhagvad gita - Brahmakumaris
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

But modern science is mostly used for destructive purposes or money making. The countries who have dangerous weapons and higher fire power are threatening to destroy other countries or black mailing them.
In all ages evil has always existed. Hence current science has always been used for constructive and destructive purposes.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Why MSMS insisted on Fish if there were no fishes in first Yuga?
I didn't say fishes did not exist in the Satya Yuga. I only said that they were not the highest form of existence. Humans were present for whom the Lord assumed non-human forms to create better conditions.

Last edited by kmaherali on Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a Ginan mentioning Gold, Silver, Copper and Clay:

Pahelaa Kartaa Jugamaa(n)he Sonaanaare Ghatt - Translation

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22960
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aatimaram



Joined: 12 Apr 2018
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ADOPTED:

THE HINDU THEORY OF WORLD CYCLES
In the Light of Modern Science

Traditional Hindu scriptures view history as cyclical in character, with vast repeating series of ages. Each age has its own particular qualities. Interestingly, this system seems to be taken literally by modern Yoga masters such as Swami Muktananda, Baba Hari Dass, Swami Vishnu Tirtha, and so on.

Traditional Puranic Model:
The Hindu Puranas describe a number of cycles within cycles. Discussions of these cycles can become confusing because different cycles are measured in different types of units. For example, the cycles are often described in units of deva years, each of which equals 360 human years.

Maha Yugas
The smallest cycle is called a maha yuga. A maha yuga is 4,320,000 human years. Each maha yuga is subdivided into the following four ages, whose lengths follow a ratio of 4:3:2:1:

Satya Yuga (also called Krita Yuga)
This first age is 1,728,000 human years. Also known as the Golden Age or age of Truth. The qualities of this age are: virtue reigns supreme; lifespan is a lakh of years, and death occurs only when willed.
Treta Yuga
This second age is 1,296,000 human years. Also known as the Silver Age. The qualities of this age are: the climate is three quarters virtue and one quarter sin; human lifespan is 10,000 years.
Dvapara Yuga
This third age is 864,000 human years. Also known as the Bronze Age. The qualities of this age are: the climate is one half virtue and one half sin; lifespan is 1,000 years.
Kali Yuga
The fourth and last age is 432,000 human years. Also known as the Iron Age. This is the age in which we are presently living. The qualities of this age are: the climate is one quarter virtue and three quarters sin; lifespan is 100 or 120 years.
Toward the end of a Kali Yuga, various calamities cause a good deal of destruction. Baba Hari Dass states that creation disappears at the end of a Maha Yuga and remains in seed form inside Brahma. However, other sources do not suggest anything so drastic; it is possible that Hari Dass was really thinking of the end of Brahma's daytime or Brahma's life when he wrote this description.

Brahma Days (Kalpas)
A kalpa is a single daytime period in the life of Brahma, the creator god. Two kalpas are a day and a night of Brahma.

Each kalpa is composed of 1,000 maha yugas. A kalpa is thus equal to 4.32 billion human years.

At the end of Brahma's daytime period, the Three Worlds (Bhuloka, Bhuvarloka, Swarloka) and the seven underworlds (of the nagas) are temporarily dissolved (pralaya); that is, the same folks can be reincarnated when the next day of Brahma begins.

The Vishnu Purana states that at the end of the daytime period of Brahma, a dreadful drought occurs that lasts 100 years, and all the waters are dried up. The sun changes into seven suns, and the three worlds (Bhurloka or Earth, Bhuvarloka or the lowest heaven, and Svarloka or the next higher heaven) and the underworlds are burned bare of life. The inhabitants of Bhuvarloka and Svarkloka flee to the next higher heaven, Maharloka, to escape the heat; and then to the next higher heaven, Janaloka.

Then mighty clouds form and the three worlds are completely flooded with water. The lord Vishnu reposes on the waters in meditative rest for another whole kalpa (4.32 billion years) before renewing the creation.

The destruction that takes place at the end of a daytime of Brahma is referred to as naimittika, which is incidental or occasional. The characteristic of this destruction is that the three worlds continue to exist but are made uninhabitable. The souls of individuals also continue to exist to be reincarnated in the next daytime of Brahma.

Brahma Years
A year of Brahma is composed of 360 day/night cycles of Brahma, or 720 kalpas, or 3,110,400,000,000 human years.

Brahma Life
The lifespan of Brahma is 100 Brahma years, or 72,000 kalpas, or 311,040,000,000,000 human years.

At the end of the life of Brahma, all worlds are completely dissolved (mahapralaya). No one is reincarnated from these worlds ever again.

Manvantaras
Another cycle that overlaps the others is that of manvantaras. Each kalpa is reigned over by a succession of 14 Manus, and the reign of each Manu is called a manvantara. A single manvantara is approximately 71 maha yugas.

Coomaraswamy states: "Each Manvantara is followed by a Deluge, which destroys the existings continents and swallows up all living beings, except the few who are preserved for the repeopling of the earth."

Our Position in History
We are located in the fifty-first Brahma year of the life of our Brahma.

Within that Brahma year, we are in the first Brahma day, called the Varaha kalpa.

Within that Brahma day, we are in the seventh manvantara, and in the 28th maha yuga of that manvantara. This would place us at about the 454th maha yuga of the 1,000 maha yugas that comprise this day of Brahma.

Within this maha yuga, we are in Kali Yuga. The 5100th year of Kali Yuga will correspond to the year 2,000 A.D. That means that we are fairly early in Kali Yuga and this age will continue more than 426,000 more years.

Variant Interpretations of Hindu Chronology
The "Traditional Puranic Model" described above is agreed upon by most authors on Hinduism and Yoga. Six different authors, listed at the end of this paper, describe this model identically.

However, several other authors, some of them well-known Hindu teachers, have published descriptions of the cycle of ages that differ from the traditional Puranic model. These variant theories are described below.

Sri Yukteswar
In the introduction to his book The Holy Science, Sri Yukteswar describes an interesting variant of the Hindu theory of ages. According to him,

...the sun, with its planets and their moons, takes some star for its dual and revolves around it in about 24,000 years of our earth-a celestial phenomenon which causes the backward movement of the equinoctial points around the zodiac. The sun also has another motion by which it revolves round a grand center called Vishnunabhi, which is the seat of the creative power, Brahma, the universal magnetism. Brahma regulates dharma, the mental virtue of the internal world.

Yukteswar goes on to explain that the sun's 24,000 year revolution around its companion star takes the sun progressively closer, and then progressively further away from the mystic center Vishnunabhi. In his system, dharma increases as we approach Vishnunabhi and decreases as we draw away from it. The cycle of yugas takes place twice in each 24,000 year revolution. As the sun recedes from Vishnunabhi, the ages pass in the usual order: Satya, Treta, Dvapara, Kali. As the sun approaches Vishnunabhi, the ages pass in the opposite order: Kali, Dvapara, Treta, Satya.

Yukteswar goes on to say that the Hindu almanacs, which correspond to the traditional Puranic model described previously, are in error. The error crept in during the dark years of Kali Yuga when scholars misinterpreted the scriptures. Regarding the conventional view that we are currently in Kali Yuga, Yukteswar says flatly that it is not true.

Yukteswar's model thus differs from the traditional in the following respects:

A cycle of four yugas takes 24,000 years instead of 4,320,000.
The yugas alternate between ascending and descending trends instead of always proceeding in the same order. This alternation becomes necessary once you posit that the ages result from our changing distance from Vishnunabhi, rather than a deliberate divine intervention at the end of Kali Yuga.
The greater cycles like kalpas, manvantars, and lifespan of Brahma go unmentioned.

Paramahansa Yogananda
Paramahansa Yogananda was a disciple of Sri Yukteswar and one of the best-known Hindu teachers ever to visit the West. He wrote the perrenial bestseller Autobiography of a Yogi.

In the latter book, Yogananda describes and endorses Yukteswar's theory of world cycles. However, in a footnote, Yogananda adds the following:

The Hindu scriptures place the present world-age as occurring within the Kali Yuga of a much longer universal cycle than the simple 24,000 year ecquinoctial cycle with which Sri Yukteswar was concerned. The universal cycle of the scriptures of 4,300,560,000 years in extent, and measures out a Day of Creation. This vast figure is based on the relationship between the length of the solar year and a multiple of pi (3.1416, the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle).

The life span for a whole universe, according to the ancient seers, is 314,159,000,000,000 solar years, or "One Age of Brahma."

The Hindu scriptures declare that an earth such as ours is dissolved for one of two reasons: the inhabitants as a whole become either completely good or completely evil. The world mind thus generates a power that releases the captive atoms held together as an earth.

This statement seems at first to reconcile Yukteswar's theory with the traditional view, but in fact actually contradicts both.

Regarding Yukteswar's theory, in his own writing he clearly states that the traditional Hindu almanacs are in error and suggests how the error came about. He states that the length of the yugas, given in ordindary years in the scriptures, were misinterpreted by later scholars as being counted in units of "deva years" which are much longer. This method led the scholars to believe that the yugas are much longer than they really are. Yukteswar's theory is thus clearly intended to replace, not to supplement, the traditional interpretation.

Regarding the "much longer universal cycle" that Yogananda describes, he states that a Day of Creation is 4,300,560,000 years. This is close but not identical to the traditional number, which is 4,320,000,000 years. Similarly, Yogananda gives 314,159,000,000,000 years the the Life of Brahma, whereas traditionally the number is slightly different: 311,040,000,000,000 years. The footnote does not explain how Yogananda's number for the Life of Brahma was calculated. However, a correspondent has pointed out to me that Yogananda's number for the Life of Brahma is a multiple of pi, the length of the solar year, and Yogananda's number for a Day of Creation. Thus the Life of Brahma (314,159,000,000,000 years) divided by a Day of Creation (4,300,560,000 years) = 73050.72, which divided by 2 is 36525.36, which in turn is more or less a multiple of the number of days in a solar year (365.25).

The greater cycle consists of 8,640,000 years, and what it corresponds to astronomically is not now known. In this cycle we are in a dark or Iron age, whose duration is 432,000 years. Exactly when it began or when it will end are not clearly known either. (Some begin it at 3102 B.C. but this is just to confuse it with the beginning of the Bronze age or the dark half of the lesser cycle.)

Rishi Singh Gerwal
Rishi Singh Gerwal was the author and apparently also the publisher of a small pamphlet on ancient prophecies, published in Santa Barbara in the 1940s. The pamphlet contains translations of various prophetic portions of the Mahabharata.

In the Introduction, Gerwal gives the following numbers:

1 kalpa = 22 septillion, 394 sextillion, 880 quadtillion human years.

1 kalpa = 2 manvantaras (traditionally this would be 14 manvantaras)

1 manvantara = 71 maha yugas (this is the same as the traditional reckoning)

Gerwal goes on to give the traditional lengths for the Satya, Treta, Dvapara, and Kali Yugas. He then states that the present Kali yuga has 210,000 years to go. He also states that 22,394,880,000,000,000,000,000,000 years have already passed since the start of the kalpa. Since this number is the same one he gave as the length of a kalpa, we are presumably at the very end of this present kalpa.

Oddly enough, if you multiply maha yugas of 4,320,000 years times 71 to make a manvantara and then times 2 to make a kalpa, the result is only 613,440,000 years rather than the 22 septillion Gerwal states as his total.

The 22 septillion number is far greater than the traditional length of a kalpa, and the statement that 2 manvantaras make a kalpa is far fewer than the traditional number of 14.

Yugas and Science
If we restrict our attention to the traditional interpretation, we find that it makes a number of significant predictions that can be compared with the findings of modern science.

Great Culture Preceded Us
Beginning about 3,894,000 years ago, there is supposed to have been a great civilisation in which people were happier, taller, and much longer lived than they are today.

By contrast, scientists currently believe that homo sapiens evolved from more primitive forbears about 300,000 to 400,000 years ago. Humanity is supposed to have domesticated plants about 12,000 years ago, and animals shortly thereafter. Prior to that point, humans are thought to have been hunter-gatherers and possibly scavengers.

The scientific view is based on fossil evidence. The mystery is how an advanced civilization posited by the Hindu theory could have vanished without leaving any trace for us to find.

Cyclic Catastrophes
A number of periodic catastrophes are described in the Hindu scriptures:
At the end of each Kali Yuga, some type of destruction takes place. The most recent instance would be a bit under 4 million years ago. Other instances should be found every 4,320,000 years before that.
At the end of each manvantara, a great flood wipes out most life on earth. The most recent occurrence would be 120,534,000 years ago. Other instances would occur at intervals of 306,720,000 years.
At the end of the kalpa, all life on earth is destroyed. The most recent instance would be 2,267,574,000 years ago.
At the end of a life of Brahma, the entire universe and all its heavens and hells are destroyed. The current universe would have come into existence more than 150 billion years ago.

Downward Trend
By far the greater divergence from modern science is in the overall pattern of the Hindu theory. The Hindu and scientific patterns differ in the following ways:
The main pattern in the Hindu theory is one of cycles.
In the Hindu theory, life follows a downward trend most of the time, from the finest age to the worst. At the end of the worst age, Kali Yuga, divine intervention rapidly destroys the wicked and restores everything to its pristine state.
In the Hindu theory, humanity is always present. The concept of evolution is confined to spiritual evolution; that is, each soul takes life in a series of lower to higher animal forms before finally incarnating as a human being.
By contrast, the fossil record of life on earth indicates that life began with very simple forms and later developed more complex organisms. The advent of humanity appears to be an extremely recent development when compared to the history of life on earth. Humanity itself does not appear to have existed long enough to have participated in the vast cycles of ages posited by Hindu theory.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aatimaram wrote:
ADOPTED:

THE HINDU THEORY OF WORLD CYCLES
In the Light of Modern Science

The source: http://baharna.com/karma/yuga.htm
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aatimaram



Joined: 12 Apr 2018
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Science Vs Vedas - The Four Ages (Yugas)

By Hemant Kumar

yugas

The Triad of TIME-SPACE-MATTER being indestructible and thus immortally always present, one is tempted to ask whether the traditional conception of dissolution would still hold good. The orthodox Hindus believe (and so do several other non-Hindus) in the four yugas (Ages) of Iron, Copper, Silver and Gold or the four yugas (Ages) of Kali,Dvapara,Treta and Krta (or Satya).

The Four Yugas (Ages)

The first of the four yugas (Ages) is credited with an age or duration of 432,000 human years. the second with twice the number. the third with three times and fourth with four times that number, making a total of 432,000 years (or 12000 years of the gods).
The four yugas (Ages) are called Chaturyugi, and such 71 chatmyugis make a Manavantara or the Age of Menu;
14 Manavantaras make a day of Brahma, the God of Creation.
The age of Brahma is 100 Years or 4320000 X 71 X 14 X 360 x 100 x 2 or 30,91,73,76,00,00,000 human years.
This is called a day of Vishnu. and he also lives a hundred years.
Then comes Rudra. whose one day equals the age of Vishnu; then Shata-Rudras and others.

In short. one is puzzled to find these astronomical figures run into trillions and quadrillions raised to another astronomical figure making the calculations still more astounding.

The Ancient people have wisely entrusted this astronomical calculation to KALA. These figures indicate infinity of time as physically calculated. This physical aspect alone is not the Reality. It. however. makes the fact abundantly clear that there is nothing which is not covered by time.
After a cycle of 71 Chaturyugis or a Manavantara of 306720000 years. there is a small dissolution of the Bhu-Loka or the Earth. when it is submerged under Water. and the Mann carries all the seeds (of created species) in a ship (or just like Noah’s Ark) sailing over the dreadful waters to a safe haven until the earth is pulled out and recreation or rather replanting begins.

At the time of Mahakalpa or the end of Brahma’s Day or 14 Manvantaras (of 4,294,080,000 human years) there comes the Night of Brahma of equal duration during which the whole creation is annihilated, and it remains so for this long. long period, when Brahma restarts his creation. It is a theory which in its application seems to take into count the Earth a place where man lives, and does not appear to tell us about other worlds and universes. It is not known who live on other planets in other stellar worlds in Milky ways and Galaxies. How they live? What their conception of creation is with reference to their own universes in which they live or the worlds upon which their races inhabit. When dissolution takes place, does only the Man of the earth get submerged or lost along with his world of beasts. birds, insects, worms, sentient, insentient. etc, under water or the other universes also do the same. To talk of those worlds and universes is rather presumptuous.

It is only about his own world the Earth and its surroundings. that Man’s Buddhi (Intellect) acts. calculates. propounds theories. cross-words. puzzles. maxims and laws. and devises solutions.

If Man does not know anything about the fate of Other Lokas or universes. how can he predict anything about them ? The earth as at present known and on which beings and non-beings exist, has a spherical surface. three-fourths of which is under water and one-fourth is land. The present-day scientific calculations reduce“ the watery surface to less than 70 per cent. The earth is a sphere in space. It is a part of the matter of the universe, in which other planets. stellar spheres, etc. exist. It Is as indestructible as others are except that it may disappear, if at all it does.When shattered into small pieces along with the creation in it and on its surface, the earth may be scattered in space into small bits. But as long as this does not happen and the earth continues to exist and revolve as a sphere under the laws of gravitation and electromagnetism inherent in it, as a part of Matter, all that can take place is change. Change my take any form. The watery surface of today may rise (under torrential rains of dissolution or otherwise) and submerge the earthy surface partially and bring about a change in so many ways.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"What are the Yugas?" with Joseph Selbie, co-author of "The Yugas"

Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0xBUIJtfFE

Millions are wondering what the future holds for mankind, and if we are soon due for a world-changing global shift. Paramhansa Yogananda (author of the classic Autobiography a Yogi) and his teacher, Sri Yukteswar, offered key insights into this subject. They presented a fascinating explanation of the rising and falling eras that our planet cycles through every 24,000 years. According to their teachings, we have recently passed through the low ebb in that cycle and are moving to a higher age — an Energy Age that will revolutionize the world. Over one hundred years ago Yukteswar predicted that we would live in a time of extraordinary change, and that much that we believe to be fixed and true — our entire way of looking at the world — would be transformed and uplifted. In The Yugas, authors Selbie and Steinmetz present substantial and intriguing evidence from the findings of historians and scientists that demonstrate the truth of Yukteswar's and Yogananda's revelations.
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mazharshah



Joined: 18 Oct 2018
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Matsya Purana (290.3-12) lists the names of 30 kalpas, as follows:

Sveta
Nilalohita
Vamadeva
Rathantara
Raurava
Deva
Vahat
Kandarpa
Sadya
Isana
Tamah
Sarasvata
Udana
Garuda
Kaurma
Narasi
Samana
Agneya
Soma
Manava
Tatpuman
Vaikuha
Lakxmi
Savitri
Aghora
Varaha
Vairaja
Gauri
Mahesvara
Pit
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazharshah wrote:
The Matsya Purana (290.3-12) lists the names of 30 kalpas, as follows:
The source: http://www.vyasaonline.com/lexicon/kalpa/

In my opinion it is all speculation of the Hindu scholars. The Vishanpuri mentioned in the Old Dua mentions 4 kalaps and their respective representative Avatars:

PERIOD OF FOUR 'KALAPS'

1. SHRI HAW
2. SHRI KAW
3. SHRI DHARAM
4. SHRI KESHAW
5. SHRI TAWNAAD
6. SHRI UTRA
7. SHRI HARITAK
8. SHRI PURURWA
9. SHRI ANTA ATITA
10. SHRI PREMRUKH

Kalap mentioned in Ginans:

Jire viraa karodd nauvaannu ne chapan batris
te kartaa aa ghatt kalas ni pujaa;
re viraa chothaa kalap ni sandhe tetris
to avar Dev nathi dujaa re viraa aaj anand 6

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3799

Eji Kalap maa(n)he karoddiyu(n) taariyu(n),
alakh aape lakhaayaa
jakh, megh, ki(n)nar, tetris,
sudhaa kari tamane dhiyaayaa ...maher karo 6

Eji Saami tamaare naame to hu(n) chaddi,
chaddi te chok bajaar
jyaa(n) kalap juga naa jiv mallashe,
karodd karodd apaar ...maher karo 22

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4130

Eji Jakh, Meg, Kinar, kalap maanhe huaa,
aa Gur-e paar langaaveaa - ebi 5

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3944

Eji Kalap juge pahelaa panth rachaayaa,
Bhirmaaji ved tabh lai aayaa 2

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4217

ire bhaaire kalap juge Gur Nar ne paas
te tame ek nur kari jaannoji 2

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4112

pelaa jaaelaa kalap maanhe jakh navaannu karodd sidhaa ho Saami (1)

Bijaa faaelaa kalap maanhe chhapan karodd meg sidhaa ho Saami; (2)

Trijaa arjaa kalap maanhe kinar batris karodd sidhaa ho Saami; (3)

Trijo kalap sampurann samaapt bhavsanto ho Saami; chothaa khalifaa kalap madhe joog chaar partante ho Saamiji,

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/30598

Dhandhukaar maanhe dhiyaan dharine,
to karann maanhe karanni kamaayaa ji;
kalap madhe kalapnaa kidhi,
to jugate sestt nipaayaa
jugesar jog-naa maram dohelaa ji 1

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4144

Ek jire bhaai re chaare kalap chaare jug kere vaayake
Nabi Mahamad kare shafaayat 3

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3757

Eji Kalap aagal ramat rameaa,
ane aaveaa aaj avtaar;
have Gur ji sarave dekhaaddjo;
mulak chovis saar 9

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4201

Hove hove ji amraapuri maan vaaso tamaaro,
upar kalap virakhni chhaiaa ji ;
savaa bhaar aahaar bhogavi,
man ichhaa fal paamso 11

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3947

Eji Kalap dhandhukaar racheo more saami ji
taie na hotaa chando suraj ha hotaa ji;
chando ne suraj Shaah more noore nipaaiyaa ji,
tej dharine Shaah more kaam chalaaveaa ji ... ...
dhan ho karanni maaraa Gur jini
dhan ho kiltaar puras,
dhan dhan saami raajaa tero raaj avichal vakhaannie,
jo tun kaaem saami antar jaami
tero ant Shaah tunhi jaanne 1

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3989

Chhatris panth sarve na jaanne,
ane andhe athddaayaa ji;
e karann kalap aage vahi gayaa,
temaa Ishvare meli maayaa - jugesar 8

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4177

Arath vede ek Raam rahemaan,
chaar juge chaar disaa pujaavi ji;
karann kalap thi aaviyaa,
teni tamne sudh na aavi - jugesar 7

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4158

240 Man Samjaanni Pir Shams
1 Raajaa e joshi toddvaa sai
2 Lagan murat ni vaataj kai
3 Ghaddiaa lagan juo tatkhev
4 Parannvaa aaveaa mottaa Dev
5 Ghaddiaa lagan ut-tam saar
6 Samraa manddhap rachie tenni vaar
7 Rachi rachnaa navrang chori
8 Gurnar betthaa vastra peri
9 Jaan mili chhe ati ghanni
10 Noor Satgur Paalannde naa dhanni
11 Jakh Megh kalap naa aaveaa Dev
12 Kinar paase karvaa aave sev
13 Pelaaj Harichandra maanhe betthaa
14 Jujesttal raae bole mitthaa
15 Maanhe Paanddav chhe polvaan
16 Sahu aavi mili chhe tiaan jaan

Re Tunhi – Jaani anantaa aaviaa
Raajaa Surchand paas re
Kalap naa Dev mileaa
Kare Shaahji ni sev re

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/30596

Eji Vaikunth maanhe ek virakh chhe
tene sagddi amraapuri chaay;
tenu naam kalap virakh chhe
tame sunno moman bhaai 4

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3923

Jire bhaai chaare kalap Shaah more sehezesun joddiyaa
munje saami-a laal kiaaddo vevaar 5

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3828

Jire bhaai chaud bhamann-no paanni
kiddi mukh maanhe samaayaa,
taare pahelo kalap rachaai Shaah more aagal dhareaa 31

Jire bhaai navaannu krodd jakh te maanhe tareaa,
taare bijo kalap rachaai Shaah more aagal dhareaa 32

Jire bhaai chhapan krodd megh te maanhe tareaa,
taare trijo kalap rachaai Shaah more aagal dhareaa 33

Jire bhaai batris krodd kinar te maanhe tareaa,
taare chotho kalap rachaai Shaah more aagal dhareaa 34

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3958

Jenne dhandhu-kaare alakh rachi-o,
kalap na lanbhe paar ji 32

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3787

Eji Paanch mo ved to unnisandh kal maanhe gayo
tenu name chhe Rujar ved;
chaar jug naa chaar ved chhe
tame chhothaa kalap nu sunno vichaar bhed 2

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3924

Eji Motta re motta munijan maddiyaa
kalpo kalap naa dev re ...puri 53

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4129

Eji Kalap dhandhukaare rachanni rachaai
tis din tun ek Ilaahi ho saami ji 7

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3813

Eji Kalap maanhe karoddiyun saahebe taariyun
tene aaliyo avichal raaj ho
lakh choriaasi naa feraa choddaaviyaa
tenaa sidhaa sarve kaaj ho...jaago 8

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4078

Yaa Khudaavand,
chaar kalap tuj aagall
venati karine pir-e ardaas-j kidhaa;
taare tame Pir naa vachan-j maaniyaa ji 10

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3753
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mazharshah



Joined: 18 Oct 2018
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very impressive. You mentioned various parts of Ginans related to kalaps. In my opinion Kalap mentioned by Satadari Pirs and Non satadari Pirs have variation in usage for explanation. Let us take the Ginan YA KHUDAVAND ANAT KALAP---. I gave reference of Matsya Puran which mentions 30 Kalaps. In old Du'a and mostly in Ginans are mentioned 4 Kalaps. Now look at the first part of Ginan below; Ya Khudavand ANAT KALAP mey aagey tu(n)hi----. Here Pir start the Ginan with ANAT KALAP means unlimited Kalaps.


Ya Khudaava(n)d Anat Kalap Me(n) - Translation
in English
trans_of: Yaa Khudawand anant kalap me aage tunhi
YAA KHUDAAVA(N)D ANAT KALAP ME(N)
PEER HASSAN KABEERDEEN

yaa khudaava(n)d, anat kalap me(n) aage tu(n)hee-j hotaa
taaro a(n)t tu(n)hee-j jaanne jee...............1

Oh Lord: Countless aeons ago, it was only You who were present.
It is only You who can fathom the limits of your limitlessness.

yaa khudaava(n)d, taare jameen nahotee aasmaan na hotaa
jo hotaa so tu(n)hee-j jaanne jee...............2

Oh Lord: At that time, there was neither the earth or the heavens.
It is only You who knows what existed then.

yaa khudaava(n)d, tu(n) aape ilaahee tu(n) aape neeree(n)jan
tu(n) aapo hee aap pareeyaann jee...............3

Oh Lord: You are Divine and You are invisible (non-created,
indescriptible). You create by Yourself in a spontaneous manner.

yaa khudaava(n)d, ashtt karodd bhrahmaa aage tu(n) upaayaa
tenne taaro a(n)t na jaannee yo jee.............4

Oh Lord: Eighty million years ago, You created
but nobody can fathom Your unlimited power.

yaa khudaava(n)d, aatth laakh karann peere taaree sirevaa jo keedhee
taare to peer ne mukh deekhlaayaa jee...........5

Oh Lord: For eight hundred thousand karans, the Peer
worshipped (served, longed for) You. It was only then
that You showed Him Your face.

yaa khudaava(n)d, anat dev taaraa mukh maa(n)he peere deetthaa
taare anat rupee tune peere karee jaanneeyaajee.6

Oh Lord: The Peer saw countless Divine spirits on Your face.
It was then that the Peer recognised You as having infinite attributes.

yaa khudaava(n)d, taaree karannee no paar allah tu(n)hee-j jaanne
evo peere mukhe naam bhannaayaa jee.............7

Oh Lord: Allah, it is only You who can fathom the limits of Your
(creative) actions. This is the word (concept) taught
through the mouth of the Peer.

yaa khudaava(n)d, chhatrees jug choraasee chokaddeeye te
ahu(n)kaar-j maa(n)ddeeyo
taare tamane peere peechhaannee yaa jee.........8

Oh Lord: For thirty six ages and eighty four 'chokarees' (period of time),
You were absorbed in Your self- consciousness (ego).
It was then that the Peer recognised You (in Your real nature as
uncreated, independent and self subsistant).

yaa khudaava(n)d, choraasee aasane taaraa darshan saamu(n) peere
tapa-j saadheeyo
taare to peer ne paas teddaavyaa jee............9

Oh Lord: For the sake of Your Vision, the Peer meditated in eighty
four postures. It was then that You invited the Peer to Your abode.

yaa khudaava(n)d, chaar kalap tuj aagall venatee kareene peere ardaas-j keedhaa
taare tame peer naa vachan-j maaneeyaa jee.....10

Oh Lord: The Peer spent four kalaps entirely petitioning in front of You.
It was then that You accepted the Peer's entire request.

Again in 7th part of Jugesar, it is mentioned CHAAR JUG CHAAR DISSA, KARAN KALAP THI AAVIYA---

rath vede ek Raam rahemaan,
chaar juge chaar disaa pujaavi ji;
karann kalap thi aaviyaa,
teni tamne sudh na aavi - jugesar 7

Question is How many kalaps? How many karans in a Kalap? How many Jugs,
Pir has mentioned 36 Jugs, confusing data!!
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 17967

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazharshah wrote:
Very impressive. You mentioned various parts of Ginans related to kalaps. In my opinion Kalap mentioned by Satadari Pirs and Non satadari Pirs have variation in usage for explanation. Let us take the Ginan YA KHUDAVAND ANAT KALAP---. I gave reference of Matsya Puran which mentions 30 Kalaps. In old Du'a and mostly in Ginans are mentioned 4 Kalaps. Now look at the first part of Ginan below; Ya Khudavand ANAT KALAP mey aagey tu(n)hi----. Here Pir start the Ginan with ANAT KALAP means unlimited Kalaps.
Good question, the reason for me to post diverse verses of the Ginans is to show that Kalap doesn't have one meaning. As I have also said that Ginans are poetic and symbolic in their expression and hence saying 'anat kalap' just means many ages ago.
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mazharshah



Joined: 18 Oct 2018
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote:
Very impressive. You mentioned various parts of Ginans related to kalaps. In my opinion Kalap mentioned by Satadari Pirs and Non satadari Pirs have variation in usage for explanation. Let us take the Ginan YA KHUDAVAND ANAT KALAP---. I gave reference of Matsya Puran which mentions 30 Kalaps. In old Du'a and mostly in Ginans are mentioned 4 Kalaps. Now look at the first part of Ginan below; Ya Khudavand ANAT KALAP mey aagey tu(n)hi----. Here Pir start the Ginan with ANAT KALAP means unlimited Kalaps.
Good question, the reason for me to post diverse verses of the Ginans is to show that Kalap doesn't have one meaning. As I have also said that Ginans are poetic and symbolic in their expression and hence saying 'anat kalap' just means many ages ago.


Not criticizing Real Ginans:
As you wrote,"Ginans are poetic and symbolic in their expression" means Dus Avtars, jugs, and kalaps are symbolic. As you quoted 'anat kalap' means many ages so this rule can be applied to hundreds of words, any one can assume meaning according to his/her scholarship and back ground. Why we do not accept Bujh Nirijin and some other Ginans as kalaam e pir, reason is many parts going against ideology. There are different datas mentioned in Ginans, for example in one Ginan it is mentioned there were 124,000 paigambers and in other 180,000!! Who will sort out blunders by early compilers with no experience and deep knowledge of Ginanic expressions.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 17967

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazharshah wrote:

Not criticizing Real Ginans:
As you wrote,"Ginans are poetic and symbolic in their expression" means Dus Avtars, jugs, and kalaps are symbolic. As you quoted 'anat kalap' means many ages so this rule can be applied to hundreds of words, any one can assume meaning according to his/her scholarship and back ground. Why we do not accept Bujh Nirijin and some other Ginans as kalaam e pir, reason is many parts going against ideology. There are different datas mentioned in Ginans, for example in one Ginan it is mentioned there were 124,000 paigambers and in other 180,000!! Who will sort out blunders by early compilers with no experience and deep knowledge of Ginanic expressions.
As MHI has said, Ginans are a wonderful tradition. Because they are symbolic, they are able to inspire the faith generations after generations. Of course what is symbolic can also be literal but the converse is not true. Hence we do have to use our intellects as well which our faith encourages us to do.

Yes Das Avatars have been interpreted symbolically as well.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5603

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In fact there is a waez by the late missionary Abualy whose reading was vast, the least we can say.

Though I did not agree with his interpretation, I found it very interesting and almost convincing.

He said the Das Avatar was the evolution, a little bit like in Darwin's theory, of mankind from fish to animal to human explained in a simple manner so common people can understand it.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 17967

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:

He said the Das Avatar was the evolution, a little bit like in Darwin's theory, of mankind from fish to animal to human explained in a simple manner so common people can understand it.
This is where the notion of the world being filled with non-humans in Satya Yuga arises, which I do not agree to.
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mazharshah



Joined: 18 Oct 2018
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
Admin wrote:

He said the Das Avatar was the evolution, a little bit like in Darwin's theory, of mankind from fish to animal to human explained in a simple manner so common people can understand it.
This is where the notion of the world being filled with non-humans in Satya Yuga arises, which I do not agree to.


With due respect to late missionary Abu Ali, he also said in one of his waiz that communism is Daet Kalingo!!
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 17967

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The article below and the slide show suggest that prehistoric times were more advanced than primitive as generally believed.

Egypt unearths tomb of ancient high priest

Egyptian archaeologists have discovered the tomb of a priest dating back more than 4,400 years in the pyramid complex of Saqqara south of the capital Cairo, authorities said Saturday.

"Today we are announcing the last discovery of the year 2018, it's a new discovery, it's a private tomb," Antiquities Minister Khaled el-Enany told an audience of invited guests including reporters.

"It is exceptionally well preserved, coloured, with sculpture inside. It belongs to a high official priest... (and) is more than 4,400 years old," he said.

The tomb belongs to "Wahtye", a high priest who served during the fifth dynasty reign of King Neferirkare, the antiquities ministry said.

Related slideshow: Amazing archaeological finds (Provided by Photo Services)

More...
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/egypt-unearths-tomb-of-ancient-high-priest/ar-BBQZo2U?li=AAggNb9&ocid=mailsignout
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swamidada



Joined: 18 Nov 2018
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="kmaherali"]The article below and the slide show suggest that prehistoric times were more advanced than primitive as generally believed.


In prehistoric or primitive times, there were no cars, no computers, no internet, no planes, no robots, no household luxuries count them. Reason is human mind was not so advanced, it progressed slowly.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 17967

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

In prehistoric or primitive times, there were no cars, no computers, no internet, no planes, no robots, no household luxuries count them. Reason is human mind was not so advanced, it progressed slowly.
How do you know that they did not have the knowledge that you are alluding to? Perhaps knowledge was lost in the dark ages of Kali Yuga. We still can't comprehend how they were able to build structures such as the pyramids that have endured through thousands of years.
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swamidada



Joined: 18 Nov 2018
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

In prehistoric or primitive times, there were no cars, no computers, no internet, no planes, no robots, no household luxuries count them. Reason is human mind was not so advanced, it progressed slowly.
How do you know that they did not have the knowledge that you are alluding to? Perhaps knowledge was lost in the dark ages of Kali Yuga. We still can't comprehend how they were able to build structures such as the pyramids that have endured through thousands of years.


You wrote;"Perhaps knowledge was lost in the dark ages of Kali Yuga", means you are not sure!! Kali Yuga has long way to go, we are just in the beginning and knowledge is lost.

you asked me," How do you know", answer is simple, through goggle as you do. My question was about the progress of mind and its advancement which was slow in ancient times and you came up with Pyramids. Please read the following article.

Solved! How Ancient Egyptians Moved Massive Pyramid Stones

By Denise Chow, Sci-Tech Editor | May 1, 2014 02:30pm ET

The Pyramids of Giza, built between 2589 and 2504 BC.

The ancient Egyptians who built the pyramids may have been able to move massive stone blocks across the desert by wetting the sand in front of a contraption built to pull the heavy objects, according to a new study.

Physicists at the University of Amsterdam investigated the forces needed to pull weighty objects on a giant sled over desert sand, and discovered that dampening the sand in front of the primitive device reduces friction on the sled, making it easier to operate. The findings help answer one of the most enduring historical mysteries: how the Egyptians were able to accomplish the seemingly impossible task of constructing the famous pyramids.

To make their discovery, the researchers picked up on clues from the ancient Egyptians themselves. A wall painting discovered in the ancient tomb of Djehutihotep, which dates back to about 1900 B.C., depicts 172 men hauling an immense statue using ropes attached to a sledge. In the drawing, a person can be seen standing on the front of the sledge, pouring water over the sand, said study lead author Daniel Bonn, a physics professor at the University of Amsterdam.

"Egyptologists thought it was a purely ceremonial act," Bonn told Live Science. "The question was: Why did they do it?"

Bonn and his colleagues constructed miniature sleds and experimented with pulling heavy objects through trays of sand.

When the researchers dragged the sleds over dry sand, they noticed clumps would build up in front of the contraptions, requiring more force to pull them across.

Adding water to the sand, however, increased its stiffness, and the sleds were able to glide more easily across the surface. This is because droplets of water create bridges between the grains of sand, which helps them stick together, the scientists said. It is also the same reason why using wet sand to build a sandcastle is easier than using dry sand, Bonn said.

But, there is a delicate balance, the researchers found.

"If you use dry sand, it won't work as well, but if the sand is too wet, it won't work either," Bonn said. "There's an optimum stiffness."

The amount of water necessary depends on the type of sand, he added, but typically the optimal amount falls between 2 percent and 5 percent of the volume of sand.

"It turns out that wetting Egyptian desert sand can reduce the friction by quite a bit, which implies you need only half of the people to pull a sledge on wet sand, compared to dry sand," Bonn said.

The study, published April 29 in the journal Physical Review Letters, may explain how the ancient Egyptians constructed the pyramids, but the research also has modern-day applications, the scientists said. The findings could help researchers understand the behavior of other granular materials, such as asphalt, concrete or coal, which could lead to more efficient ways to transport these resources.

Follow Denise Chow on Twitter @denisechow. Follow Live Science @livescience, Facebook & Google+. Original article on Live Science.
https://www.livescience.com/45285-how-egyptians-moved-pyramid-stones.html
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5603

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is all talk, thousands of theories have come and go about how the Pyramids were constructed. The fact is that today with all the technology available, they are still not capable to make such precise pyramids. Now they don't only have the problem on how they transported large block but also how they transported an equivalent or bigger amount of water in places where Pyramids were built, sometimes hundreds of kilometers from the Nile or large water sources.
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