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Imam and Imamat
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21203

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
In the same interview when Mr. Tomalin asked Hazar Imam;

Do you feel you've made any mistakes?

" Yes, of course I have."

Do you regret any?

"One is bound to regret mistakes. They have definitely caused damage and one can only hope to put them right. One makes mistakes unknowingly, because one has been ill-advised, because of hasty decisions, because of bad judgment - there are many reasons."
In the same interview he said that he is the bearer of the Noor for his followers and that he is the symbol of faith. Hence from the perspective of his murids, he does not make mistakes.

Remember you said in another thread that Imamat is the Noor of Allah which implies that mistakes by the Imam are not possible from a murids perspective.

For others he is not the bearer of Noor, hence mistakes are possible from their perspective.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
In the same interview when Mr. Tomalin asked Hazar Imam;

Do you feel you've made any mistakes?

" Yes, of course I have."

Do you regret any?

"One is bound to regret mistakes. They have definitely caused damage and one can only hope to put them right. One makes mistakes unknowingly, because one has been ill-advised, because of hasty decisions, because of bad judgment - there are many reasons."
In the same interview he said that he is the bearer of the Noor for his followers and that he is the symbol of faith. Hence from the perspective of his murids, he does not make mistakes.

Remember you said in another thread that Imamat is the Noor of Allah which implies that mistakes by the Imam are not possible from a murids perspective.

For others he is not the bearer of Noor, hence mistakes are possible from their perspective.


In one of my posts, I wrote," Noor e Hidayat or Noor e Imamat can't make mistakes but in human form Shah Karim can make mistakes which he mentioned in interview". To err is human.
Please note there is difference in sin, blunder, and mistake.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

In one of my posts, I wrote," Noor e Hidayat or Noor e Imamat can't make mistakes but in human form Shah Karim can make mistakes which he mentioned in interview".
Can you explain the difference between Noor e Hidayat and the human form of the Imam? Aren't the actions of the Imam informed by the Noor?
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

In one of my posts, I wrote," Noor e Hidayat or Noor e Imamat can't make mistakes but in human form Shah Karim can make mistakes which he mentioned in interview".
Can you explain the difference between Noor e Hidayat and the human form of the Imam? Aren't the actions of the Imam informed by the Noor?


Shah Karim bestow Deedar in capacity of Hazar Imam and not as Aga Khan.
In Lisbon he gave JD Deedar as Hazar Imam but he received and talked to president as Aga Khan. During Deedar when Imam delivers Farman is Noor e Hidayat.

As a human being Imam has choices like other human beings in worldly matters. He can choose to purchase an Italian made car or American made car. He can choose air plane made in France or England. He can choose to go on vacation to Sardina or Bell Island. He can choose to invest in Star Bucks or Micro Soft. These types of choices or decisions are not informed by Eternal Noor.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

As a human being Imam has choices like other human beings in worldly matters. He can choose to purchase an Italian made car or American made car. He can choose air plane made in France or England. He can choose to go on vacation to Sardina or Bell Island. He can choose to invest in Star Bucks or Micro Soft. These types of choices or decisions are not informed by Eternal Noor.
In his interview he did not distinguish between worldly matters and Farmans. It is the same Noor which informs his worldly decisions and the Farmans.

Hence if you are saying he makes mistakes, then he makes mistakes in his Farmans as well. As a murid that is absurd.

However if you are saying that as a non-murid I would understand your position
because to you he is not the bearer of Noor.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

As a human being Imam has choices like other human beings in worldly matters. He can choose to purchase an Italian made car or American made car. He can choose air plane made in France or England. He can choose to go on vacation to Sardina or Bell Island. He can choose to invest in Star Bucks or Micro Soft. These types of choices or decisions are not informed by Eternal Noor.
In his interview he did not distinguish between worldly matters and Farmans. It is the same Noor which informs his worldly decisions and the Farmans.

Hence if you are saying he makes mistakes, then he makes mistakes in his Farmans as well. As a murid that is absurd.

However if you are saying that as a non-murid I would understand your position
because to you he is not the bearer of Noor.


You keep twisting my statements to prove your point. You are mixing two different things i.e Farmans and worldly conversations and decisions. For example, Imam asks prince Rahim,'son attend this meeting tomorrow as I am busy', what you think, is it Noor guided? I clearly wrote, Noor e Hidayat make no mistakes but as a human being he can make mistakes and I gave worldly examples.
You wrote;" It is the same Noor which informs his worldly decisions and the Farmans", so you are admitting that Allah's Noor informs Imam in his worldly decisions and Farmans as an intercessor. This is what I am insisting and explaining that IMAM IS THE INTERCESSOR.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

You wrote;" It is the same Noor which informs his worldly decisions and the Farmans", so you are admitting that Allah's Noor informs Imam in his worldly decisions and Farmans as an intercessor. This is what I am insisting and explaining that IMAM IS THE INTERCESSOR.
If the Noor informs his worldly actions and Farmans, he cannot make mistakes. You are constantly saying that he makes mistakes, which as an Ismaili is absurd.

There is an interesting article on Imamat at:

Theology of Imamat: An Introduction

https://ismailiwellsprings.wordpress.com/2016/10/12/shia-imami-ismaili-beliefs-an-introduction/?utm_source=Direct

Highlight in light of our discussion:

Merits for an Imam:

-An Imam can only be from the family of the Prophet Muhammad (Ahl-e-Bait).

-An Imam is infallible like a Prophet, that is, he is divinely bestowed with freedom from error and sin of any sort. As has been mentioned in the Quran about purity of Ahl-e-Bait:

“And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.” Quran (33:33)
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

You wrote;" It is the same Noor which informs his worldly decisions and the Farmans", so you are admitting that Allah's Noor informs Imam in his worldly decisions and Farmans as an intercessor. This is what I am insisting and explaining that IMAM IS THE INTERCESSOR.
If the Noor informs his worldly actions and Farmans, he cannot make mistakes. You are constantly saying that he makes mistakes, which as an Ismaili is absurd.

There is an interesting article on Imamat at:

Theology of Imamat: An Introduction

https://ismailiwellsprings.wordpress.com/2016/10/12/shia-imami-ismaili-beliefs-an-introduction/?utm_source=Direct

Highlight in light of our discussion:

Merits for an Imam:

-An Imam can only be from the family of the Prophet Muhammad (Ahl-e-Bait).

-An Imam is infallible like a Prophet, that is, he is divinely bestowed with freedom from error and sin of any sort. As has been mentioned in the Quran about purity of Ahl-e-Bait:

“And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.” Quran (33:33)


You are confused and making readers confused. I supported your statement that Imam is the intercessor. Human beings are prone to mistakes even prophets made mistakes. You gave reference; " An Imam is infallible like a Prophet, that is, he is divinely bestowed with freedom from error and sin of any sort". Let me give an example, Once Prophet Muhammad was sitting with some companions, some one asked question about cultivation of dates to improve production. Prophet gave advice and after couple of months some companions approached prophet and humbly said, Ya Rasulullah, according to your advice we cultivated but we got less production. Prophet replied I am sorry to give you wrong advice. I had no experience of cultivation as you do. This was an error and mistake and Prophet did not hesitated to say sorry.
Imam had big losses in businesses, Imam had matrimonial problems, were those Noor inspired?
Regarding mistakes, I am not blaming him, I am quoting what he said and I believe him, if you not fine with me not a biggy.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your problem has always been that you understand the "Imam" as a body made of flesh with an expiry date, when other understand the eternal Noor as "Imam". As said Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah, the Shariati will never understand the Farmans and it is only though Farmans that one can define what is Imam.

This danger of this misunderstanding was highlighted by our present Imam in 1992 in Vancouver where he warned that one can not explain the Tariqah without first explaining what is Imam.

What we have here is a dialogue of deaf people.

The real question is as follow: How would a Wahabi understand what is Imam? The answer is simply that he would never be able, he does not have the ability not the means nor the willingness. When faith is not there, how can one understand the concept of Imam and Noor?


The question is self-explanatory.

As for Imam being an "Intercessor" forget this. Imam is Noor, he does not need to intercede because he himself decide of the fate of his countless souls, whatever animal jin, angels, men and whatever other creatures of the creation... As said Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah in his Farman, "Heaven and Hell are in my hands"
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21203

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Imam had big losses in businesses, Imam had matrimonial problems, were those Noor inspired?
Regarding mistakes, I am not blaming him, I am quoting what he said and I believe him, if you not fine with me not a biggy.
All actions of the Imam are informed by the Noor. You cannot judge the actions of the Imam from an ordinary human standpoint.

The interview was directed to a non-Ismaili majority audience who don't understand the concept of Noor. Hence he cannot tell them that he does not make mistakes.

There is the Zaheri audience (the general public) and there is a batini audience (the jamat). Have you heard him tell his murids that he makes mistakes?
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
Your problem has always been that you understand the "Imam" as a body made of flesh with an expiry date, when other understand the eternal Noor as "Imam". As said Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah, the Shariati will never understand the Farmans and it is only though Farmans that one can define what is Imam.

This danger of this misunderstanding was highlighted by our present Imam in 1992 in Vancouver where he warned that one can not explain the Tariqah without first explaining what is Imam.

What we have here is a dialogue of deaf people.

The real question is as follow: How would a Wahabi understand what is Imam? The answer is simply that he would never be able, he does not have the ability not the means nor the willingness. When faith is not there, how can one understand the concept of Imam and Noor?


The question is self-explanatory.

As for Imam being an "Intercessor" forget this. Imam is Noor, he does not need to intercede because he himself decide of the fate of his countless souls, whatever animal jin, angels, men and whatever other creatures of the creation... As said Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah in his Farman, "Heaven and Hell are in my hands"


I am neither Sunni, nor Shia, nor Wahabi, nor Isna'ashiri, I am an Ismaili of new generation and not of old conservative class still attached to 700 years old ideology. Why don't you people accept Preamble by Imam which explains the real Ismailism. If you people have so pain with Preamble request Imam to withdraw it.
Ismailis believe each Imam is Ali, then Imam Ja'far as Ali said " we are gates to Allah ". Is it a wrong saying by Ali. Let me quote a Farman of MSMS which clears the air. MSMS said, I quote," JEM HAZRAT MURTAZA ALI YE EEK DEEVAS NAMAZ NI WAKHTEY FARMAWIU(N) KE;" KHUDAYA MANEY BAHASHT NI TAMA' NATHI, TEM HU(N) DOUZAKH THI DHARTO NATHI, JE DUKH DEWU(N) HOYA TE MANEY DEY, MARA THI SARAI KAR, HU(N) TARO ASHIQ CHHU(N)."
ONE DAY MOWLA MURTAZA ALI AT TIME OF NAMAZ SAID;" O ALLAH, I DO NOT DESIRE PARADISE NOR I AM AFRAID OF HELL, GIVE ME WHAT EVER PAIN (TROUBLE, DISTRESS) YOU WANT, BE GOOD TO ME, I AM YOUR LOVER (ASHIQ).
Farman by MSMS, mentioned in the Farman booklet "RUHANI ROSHINI", printed by Ismailia Association for Pakistan, second edition 1981, page # 48.

As I have mentioned few times before, I am discussing material from Ismaili literature printed by Iamailia Associations, ITREB, IIS, Ismaili writers, and printed Farmans. Instead of cursing me better you people curse these publications.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
You are overshadowed by Admin.


------------------------------------------

NOTE BY ADMIN

Your post had no problem but it has been deleted because it was overshadowed by you needless remarks about Admin.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
Instead of cursing me better you people curse these publications.


We don't need to do what you are saying. The problem is not the publications, it is the Shariati interpretation of everything in Ismailism, from the concept of Imam to the concept of Knowledge (Ginan) to our rites and rituals to even basic Farmans. All of you posts are smelling Shariah and Wahabism. They say if it smell like a rat, walks like a rat, eat like a rat and post like a rat, it is certainly not a swan.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21203

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
[ Why don't you people accept Preamble by Imam which explains the real Ismailism. If you people have so pain with Preamble request Imam to withdraw it.
If you read the preamble carefully, it states general Shia doctrine and then Ismaili specific doctrine/matters. You keep alluding to the Shia doctrine that applies to all Shias and not Ismaili specific doctrine.

It states:

(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat Alayha-s-salam).
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Imam had big losses in businesses, Imam had matrimonial problems, were those Noor inspired?
Regarding mistakes, I am not blaming him, I am quoting what he said and I believe him, if you not fine with me not a biggy.
All actions of the Imam are informed by the Noor. You cannot judge the actions of the Imam from an ordinary human standpoint.

The interview was directed to a non-Ismaili majority audience who don't understand the concept of Noor. Hence he cannot tell them that he does not make mistakes.

There is the Zaheri audience (the general public) and there is a batini audience (the jamat). Have you heard him tell his murids that he makes mistakes?


You wrote," All actions of the Imam are informed by the Noor. You cannot judge the actions of the Imam from an ordinary human standpoint".
Karim Sir, you drifted away from your ideology, your words are " all actions of Imam are informed by the Noor", means Imam is informed by some outside source what to do!! Noor of who is guiding Imam, obviously that is Noor of Allah. Now you are on right track.
First you decide, Imam gave interview as Hazar Imam or as The Aga Khan.
I wander when you write 'batini audience', can you please count quickly for me how many batinis are in community who understand batini meaning of each saying of Imam.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
Instead of cursing me better you people curse these publications.


We don't need to do what you are saying. The problem is not the publications, it is the Shariati interpretation of everything in Ismailism, from the concept of Imam to the concept of Knowledge (Ginan) to our rites and rituals to even basic Farmans. All of you posts are smelling Shariah and Wahabism. They say if it smell like a rat, walks like a rat, eat like a rat and post like a rat, it is certainly not a swan.


AEISA WAESA KOI MUJHEY JACHTA NAHI
JUCH JAI TOU PHIR WOH BACHTA NAHI

You wrote," if it smell like a rat, walks like rat, eat like a rat, post like a rat, it is certainly not a swan". You are getting smarter and smarter. Let me put your sentence in this way;
If it small like a swan, eat like a swan, dance like a swan, post like a swan, certainly it is not Simerg.
Regarding wahabism, let me ask; Do you not recite YA WAHAB in morning Tasbih!!
Ismaili publications speak for them selves. I have not penned them. If these smell shari'ati please contact authors of these publications, I am just quoting from them.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
[ Why don't you people accept Preamble by Imam which explains the real Ismailism. If you people have so pain with Preamble request Imam to withdraw it.
If you read the preamble carefully, it states general Shia doctrine and then Ismaili specific doctrine/matters. You keep alluding to the Shia doctrine that applies to all Shias and not Ismaili specific doctrine.

It states:

(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat Alayha-s-salam).


Karim Sir, I appreciate you are trying hard to validate your point. Please take all articles of Preamble for consideration and not just one article. Are Ismailis not Shias? Do they not follow Ja'fari Madhab as Imam mentioned? Ismailis believe all Imams as Ali. So this is the same Noor of Ali who has continued Ta'lim and explained Ta'weel of Allah's final message.
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Nuseri



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YA ALI MADAD:
the word 'SHIA DOCTRINES' in the Constitution ENCOMPASSES OUR SUFI TARIQA and work of Ismaili Rasikunfiilm , thier work , many part of it form daily prayer along side with Dua with similar weigtage.
Around the same year of Constitution, by order / farman MHI said he accepts ginan and qasidas as a form of submission ( same as Dua being a submission) during
Silver jubilee time.
that articulated word ( shia doctrines) comes before other words.
Even the word Tawhid encompasses the baatin concept our kailima visavis Shahada of the main stream.
The next word is tradition , as ginan , qasida, & manqabat do form part our tradition ( just not parroting of Ayats verbally.
The status of physical Imam and his prerogative come from ACCORDANCE of this words acknowledging the work of Rasikunfiilm, who highligted the status of Imam , which was supressed in holy book and spinning of Hadith.
the saying of Rasikunfiilm bring high status to house of ALI, whom the main stream disregard and undermine.
A westerner journalist need know througly the Shia doctrines, traditions and history before asking questions.
Reading Ivanov and Ann marie Schimmel , they were Rasikunfiilm not necessarily Ismailis and Swami Vivekananda a non Ismaili well defined in the holy book as Rasikunfiilm ( mentioned as they which mean many male or female ).
without valid Shia doctrines ( work of who were not Imams) ,nobody would have that a hereditary IMAM exist on earth then and even now.
God may not not open or show himself ,his hujjat & Rasikunfiilm gave done ,doing n will do for Him.
Those two word needs a rational person to read, understand and accept the volumes of work under that heading.after that comes other words of the Constitution.
Ahmed ALI ALI boliya.
Pechee Honi Hoi so Hoi ree.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Karim Sir, you drifted away from your ideology, your words are " all actions of Imam are informed by the Noor", means Imam is informed by some outside source what to do!! Noor of who is guiding Imam, obviously that is Noor of Allah. Now you are on right track.
Hence he is Akl -e-kull and does not make mistakes! That is the main point of the discussion.

shivaathervedi wrote:

First you decide, Imam gave interview as Hazar Imam or as The Aga Khan.
I wander when you write 'batini audience', can you please count quickly for me how many batinis are in community who understand batini meaning of each saying of Imam.


He gave the interview as the Aga Khan speaking to the world at large. It is irrelevant how many batinis understand the meaning of the saying. What matters is that the batini meanings exist.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Karim Sir, I appreciate you are trying hard to validate your point. Please take all articles of Preamble for consideration and not just one article. Are Ismailis not Shias? Do they not follow Ja'fari Madhab as Imam mentioned? Ismailis believe all Imams as Ali. So this is the same Noor of Ali who has continued Ta'lim and explained Ta'weel of Allah's final message.
The constitution first of all affirms our identity as Muslims by mentioning the Shahada. Then it goes on to affirm our identity as Shias. Then it talks about aspects particular to Ismaili Tariqah such as the Ta'lim and Ta'weel.

Of course this is a zaheri document read by non-Ismailis as well.

From the batini point of view, Imamat has always existed even before the final message of Allah.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Karim Sir, you drifted away from your ideology, your words are " all actions of Imam are informed by the Noor", means Imam is informed by some outside source what to do!! Noor of who is guiding Imam, obviously that is Noor of Allah. Now you are on right track.
Hence he is Akl -e-kull and does not make mistakes! That is the main point of the discussion.

shivaathervedi wrote:

First you decide, Imam gave interview as Hazar Imam or as The Aga Khan.
I wander when you write 'batini audience', can you please count quickly for me how many batinis are in community who understand batini meaning of each saying of Imam.


He gave the interview as the Aga Khan speaking to the world at large. It is irrelevant how many batinis understand the meaning of the saying. What matters is that the batini meanings exist.


Discussion is not about 'Akl e Kul but about interview in which Imam said, he makes mistakes. Not annoying any one, if it is 'Akl e Kul, still he got losses in businesses, matrimonial issues and other things. 'Akal should have showed clear path.
Instead of arguments from you, I am just reading this is irrelevant, that is irrelevant. Fine, batini meaning exists, but is it of any use to community members. Who will explain the batini meaning that Imam makes mistakes.
Did Imam warned interviewer that he is giving interview as Aga Khan and not as Imam?
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Karim Sir, I appreciate you are trying hard to validate your point. Please take all articles of Preamble for consideration and not just one article. Are Ismailis not Shias? Do they not follow Ja'fari Madhab as Imam mentioned? Ismailis believe all Imams as Ali. So this is the same Noor of Ali who has continued Ta'lim and explained Ta'weel of Allah's final message.
The constitution first of all affirms our identity as Muslims by mentioning the Shahada. Then it goes on to affirm our identity as Shias. Then it talks about aspects particular to Ismaili Tariqah such as the Ta'lim and Ta'weel.

Of course this is a zaheri document read by non-Ismailis as well.

From the batini point of view, Imamat has always existed even before the final message of Allah.


No where in Preamble ( you still keep writing constitution ) Imam has mentioned that he will give Ta'leem and interpret books of previous Prophets. But he wrote,"He will give Ta'leem and Ta'weel of FINAL MESSAGE OF ALLAH".
Preamble is meant for Ismails that's why it was explained to jamaits at large in all Ismaili jurisdiction and centers in 1986 on orders of Hazar Imam.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading Ivanov and Ann marie Schimmel , they were Rasikunfiilm not necessarily Ismailis and Swami Vivekananda a non Ismaili well defined in the holy book as Rasikunfiilm ( mentioned as they which mean many male or female ).
without valid Shia doctrines ( work of who were not Imams) ,nobody would have that a hereditary IMAM exist on earth then and even now.
God may not not open or show himself ,his hujjat & Rasikunfiilm gave done ,doing n will do for Him.
Those two word needs a rational person to read, understand and accept the volumes of work under that heading.after that comes other words of the Constitution.
Ahmed ALI ALI boliya.
Pechee Honi Hoi so Hoi ree.

Reply:
With reference to above quote;
Some one explain the man who in reality are Rasikhun fil Ilm.
I wander Ivanow, Miss Schimmel, Swami Vivekananda were RASKHINUN FIL ILM, did Imam mentioned in his Farmans?
Imam has explained Shia doctrines in Preamble, some one should read attentively.
In the original manuscript of Ginan by Syed Ahmad Shah is mentioned;
AHMAD HARI HARI BOLANTA
PECHHEY HONI HOYA SO HOYA.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
Not annoying any one, if it is 'Akl e Kul, still he got losses in businesses, matrimonial issues and other things. 'Akal should have showed clear path.


Your sarcasm is not welcomed n this board. If you want to judge why Imam does what for everything you interpret as Imam's failure, you should read Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah's Farman that If Imam says Day, it is Day.

If you have no faith in the Imam, your place is not here and do not pretend on this board that you are an Ismailis. We have seen many like you. They come and they go but Imam always stands strong accross time and dimensions.

If you want to ridicule the Imam because he married multiple times, the Prophet did the same and one of them married 999 times, read the religious book.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
Not annoying any one, if it is 'Akl e Kul, still he got losses in businesses, matrimonial issues and other things. 'Akal should have showed clear path.


Your sarcasm is not welcomed n this board. If you want to judge why Imam does what for everything you interpret as Imam's failure, you should read Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah's Farman that If Imam says Day, it is Day.

If you have no faith in the Imam, your place is not here and do not pretend on this board that you are an Ismailis. We have seen many like you. They come and they go but Imam always stands strong accross time and dimensions.

If you want to ridicule the Imam because he married multiple times, the Prophet did the same and one of them married 999 times, read the religious book.


Be an honest moderator. What was wrong with my reply to your post. Did I disrespect to you? That's how discussions go. Let me post reply again.

You wrote:
"the Prophet did the same and one of them married 999 times, read the religious book".
Prophet David married 99 times and not 999 times. Please educate yourself and read religious books properly.
You wrote: "
We have seen many like you. They come and they go........".
I go we go every one will go no one is going to stay for ever. Mir Anees the famous Urdu poet wrote; AANA MERI DALIL JANEY KI HAI.
Imam Begum said;
MARNA HAI RE ZARUR JUG MAHE(N) CHETI NE CHALO.

If you read my posts without biased glasses you will find clarity. The discussion is about the wordings of Imam during interview. I did not criticized the Farmans or Hidayat by Imam to followers. I argued Aga Khan as human being can make mistakes. I consider role of Aga Khan different in worldly matters.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Prophet David married 99 times and not 999 times. Please educate yourself and read religious books properly. .


I was not talking of Prophet David but Prophet Solomon who had 700 wives and 300 concubines which were also at that time considered as somewhat wives..


Last edited by Admin on Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total
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Admin



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In view of the continuous and repeated lack of respect for the rules of posting of this Forum by Nuseiri and Shivathervedi since a long time, I have decided to ban both permanently from all discussions in this Forum.

This will allow people with more respectful attitude to participate to the discussions. I understand that it will not happen overnight but we need peace here to create space for serious people.

Ismailism is an intellectual faith, this is what the Forum will ensure to reflect.

Admin
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21203

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
I argued Aga Khan as human being can make mistakes. I consider role of Aga Khan different in worldly matters.
You cannot separate his role in worldly matters because he is the guide in both spiritual and worldly matters according to the Preamble:

(F) Historically and in accordance with Ismaili tradition, the Imam of the time is concerned with spiritual advancement as well as improvement of the quality of life of his murids. The Imam's Ta'lim lights the murids' path to spiritual enlightenment and vision. In temporal matters, the Imam guides the murids, and motivates them to develop their potential.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al-Naysaburi expanded on Fatimid Imam al-Mansur’s concept of Imamat

Posted by Nimira Dewji
A prominent Ismaili scholar and writer of the early eleventh century, Ahmad b. Ibrahim al-Naysaburi worked during the time of Imams al-Aziz (r. 975-996) and al-Hakim (r.996-1021). Although not much is know about his life, according to his works, he seems to have come from Nishapur in Khurasan (modern-day northeastern Iran, southern Turkmenistan, and northern Afghanistan); he was well-versed in history, theology, and literature.

Al-Naysaburi’s numerous works include the Kitab Istitar al-imam wa tafarruq al-du’at fi’l-jaza’ir li-talabi-hi (The Book of the Concealment of the Imam and the Departure of the da‘is to different “islands” in search of him), considered “a central work in medieval Ismaili thought” (The Ismailis An Illustrated History, p 99). Written during the time of Imam al-Aziz, the text provides details about Imam Muhammad b. Ismail and his successors, including the hardships faced by Imam al-Mahdi who fled from Salamiyya to North Africa, where he subsequently established the Fatimid Caliphate in 909.

Istitar al-Imama Al-Naysaburi
Al-Naysaburi’s Kitab al-Istitar al-imama. Source: The Ismailis: An Illustrated History
“The Kitab Ithbat al-Imama provides an unparalleled insight into the intricacies of the [Imam-Caliph] al-Hakim’s rule… not only adding considerably to our understanding of that period, but also dispelling the erroneous accusations against this caliph” (Synopsis, Degrees of Excellence).

Ithbat al-imama al-naysaburi
Ithbat al-Imama. Source: The Ismailis An Illustrated History
“Al-Naysaburi’s Kitab Ithbat al-Imama is situated at a time of particular debate around the notion of imamat and whether this was a necessity on account of revelation only or also based on reason. Other works written prior to Al-Naysaburi were ‘exposed to a series of refutations and reviews not only among Sunni and Zaydi authors but also by fellow Ismaili scholars. The Tathbit al-imama, attributed to the third Fatimid Imam-Caliph al–Mansur bi’llah (r. 946-953 CE) prior to Al-Naysaburi’s text, maintains that ‘the imamat was, for him, fard akbar, that is the greatest religious duty on humanity without which it cannot function or act righteously. Al-Naysaburi expands on this premise in his works” (Reading Guide).

“The institution of imamat is at the very crux of Al-Naysaburi’s treatise in which he uses intellect followed by Qur’anic verses and Prophetic tradition to further substantiate his argument (Reading Guide).

His other work, al-Risala al-mujaza alkafiya fi adab al-du’at (Brief and Concise Epistle on the Etiquette of the Da‘is) provides a detailed description of the characteristics and duties of the ideal da‘i, “who should possess a high standard of education, exceptional moral and intellectual attributes, and strong organizational abilities. Having knowledge of the zahir (exoteric) and batin (esoteric), the shari’a and its Ismaili interpretation (ta’wil), the da’i was trained in jurisprudence as well as in the Qur’an and hadith in addition to knowing about philosophy, history, and other religions and cultures” (The Ismailis An Illustrated History, p 99).

Sources:
Dr Arzina Lalani, Degrees of Excellence, I.B. Tauris in association with The Institute of Ismaili Studies, 2009

Reading Guide, Degrees of Excellence, The Institute of Ismaili Studies

Farhad Daftary, Zulfikar Hirji, The Ismailis An Illustrated History, Azimuth Editions in association with The Institute of Ismaili Studies

https://nimirasblog.wordpress.com/2018/12/24/al-naysaburi-expanded-on-fatimid-imam-al-mansurs-concept-of-imamat/
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swamidada



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imam and Imamat in Nahjul Balaghah:

In Nahjul Balaghah Mowla Ali outlines the characteristics of Imam.

Quran says;

"And We made them Imams to guide by Our command when they are patient, and they are certain of Our communications". (32: 24)

There is a famous tradition from the Prophet Muhammad recorded by both the Shias and mostly Sunni traditionalists:

"One who dies without recognizing the Imam of his time, dies the death of ignorance".

This means that even if a person accepts and conforms to all the Islamic beliefs and puts in practice all the edicts, but dies without recognizing the Imam of his time, his death will be on ignorance and apostasy.

If a person is not pious in his own heart, he will not be able to guide his followers towards piety and servitude. Hence if some one desire salvation and want to safeguard eternal life from the chastisement of the Hellfire, then one has to search for an Imam whose inner and outer selves both are complete manifestations of divine command. Such an Imam must necessarily be adorned with piety completely, i.e. must be an infallible. If somebody makes additions to the religion or forbids an obligation, he has violated the divine command which tantamount to injustice.

Therefore, any person who has not been appointed an Imam by Allah and he claims this position for himself, he has transgressed the limits of Allah and has disregarded Allah's orders. He is a tyrannical and an oppressive leader.

"You should know that among the creatures of Allah, the most distinguished person before Allah is the just Imam who has been guided (by Allah) and guides others. So, he stands by the recognized ways of the Prophet's guidance and destroys the innovations. The (Prophet's ways are clear and have clear signs".

In another sermon Mowla Ali declares:

"Certainly the Imams are the vicegerents of Allah over His creatures and they introduce Allah to His creatures. None will enter Paradise except he who recognizes them (Imams) and knows Allah".

He elaborates on this further,

"O my Allah! You know that it was neither our (Ahlul Bayt) objective to seek power, nor to acquire anything from the treasures of the world. Rather we wanted to restore the signs of Your religion and to spread prosperity into Your cities so that the oppressed among Your creatures may be safe and Your forsaken commands could be established. O my Allah! I am the first who was inclined and who heard and responded. No one preceded me in prayer except the Prophet".

"Certainly, there is no obligation on the Imam except what has been devolved on him from Allah, namely to convey warnings, to exhort and advice, to revive the hidayat, enforce penalties on those liable and issue shares to the deserving".

About Ahl e Bait:

If some one search for the characteristics of the rightly Imam, will find that these traits are present only in the pure and infallible Imams of the Ahl e Bait

Mowla Ali said;

"Look at the people of the Prophet's family i.e Ahl e Bait. Adhere to their direction. Follow their footsteps because they will never misguide you, and never throw you into destruction. If they sit down, you too must sit down, and if they rise, you also rise. Do not go ahead of them, as you will go astray and do not lag behind them, as you will be ruined".

"Where are those people who have lied and have tormented us and have deceitfully claimed that they are 'the ones firmly rooted in knowledge' and not us? (They lie against us and covet over position) because Allah, the All Merciful has exalted our status and has made them inferior to us. He has conferred upon us an eminence from which He prevented them from surpassing us. He allowed us entry to the transcendental sphere of divine revelation, which He denied them".

"Remember that guidance could be acquired and ignorance could be dispelled through us only. Undoubtedly the Imams shall be from the Quraish, from the Bani Hashim. This divine appointment has been made for this august progeny, and none else deserves this sublime and sacred rank".

These assertive and decisive statements from Nahjul Bakaghah make it abundantly clear that the rightful possessors of Imamat are the Ahl e Bait. No one else is deserving of this honor and station. Only the Imams can direct the people to the path of guidance and lead them to salvation. If somebody considers a person other than them as his leader, guide and Imam, he has deviated and is far from true guidance.
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