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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Essenes tradition before prophet mohammed
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Essenes tradition before prophet mohammed
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18862

PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

OMG, still you are confused. I am not targeting guidance to murids. You are deliberately not paying attention to my examples. I wrote; choosing wrong stocks or shares in stock markets, or choosing wrong horse for racing, or a bad business deals where money doomed, or other personal decitions, that is what Imam meant in interview
There is no confusion, you are only trying to evade the real issue. Let me put the question in this way: If as you say the Imam does not make mistakes on guidance on worldly matters to his murids, how is it possible for him to make mistakes in other worldly matters?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

In history numbers play important role. If every thing is symbolic then Iman can be dubbed as symbolic. Numbers speak for themselves 1900, 1400, and 14. Why Imam used these numbers, any interpretation apart from symbolic?
Yes everything can be symbolic. Doesn't the Qur'an mention Ayats -symbols?
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

In history numbers play important role. If every thing is symbolic then Iman can be dubbed as symbolic. Numbers speak for themselves 1900, 1400, and 14. Why Imam used these numbers, any interpretation apart from symbolic?
Yes everything can be symbolic. Doesn't the Qur'an mention Ayats -symbols?


You wrote," Yes every thing can be symbolic ", so your being is also symbolic and you are not real. Are the Imamat #s 5, 72, 61 are symbolic or real?
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

OMG, still you are confused. I am not targeting guidance to murids. You are deliberately not paying attention to my examples. I wrote; choosing wrong stocks or shares in stock markets, or choosing wrong horse for racing, or a bad business deals where money doomed, or other personal decitions, that is what Imam meant in interview
There is no confusion, you are only trying to evade the real issue. Let me put the question in this way: If as you say the Imam does not make mistakes on guidance on worldly matters to his murids, how is it possible for him to make mistakes in other worldly matters?


Not me but you evaded my second part of question thinking it is a trap. You wrote: "If as you say the Imam does not make mistakes on guidance on worldly matters to his murids, how is it possible for him to make mistakes in other worldly matters"? But Imam said in an interview he made mistakes. These are not my words and words speak for them selves. These are clear words and there is no batin in it.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18862

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

You wrote," Yes every thing can be symbolic ", so your being is also symbolic and you are not real. Are the Imamat #s 5, 72, 61 are symbolic or real?
Yes, everything including ourselves and Imamat can be symbolic pointing to the real. It is a matter of degree. We as murids are symbolic of partial reality. The Imamat is symbolic of the whole reality.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18862

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
But Imam said in an interview he made mistakes. These are not my words and words speak for them selves. These are clear words and there is no batin in it.
As I have been telling you all along and you are not paying attention, the Imam expresses himself according to the capacity of the audience. The Imam made the statement in a public interview, the majority of the audience of which do not have a good understanding of Imamat.

You can decide whether you are a murid who has a better understanding of Imamat and hence the Imam does not make mistakes as in his guidance or you are a non-murid to whom the Imam makes mistakes.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

You wrote," Yes every thing can be symbolic ", so your being is also symbolic and you are not real. Are the Imamat #s 5, 72, 61 are symbolic or real?
Yes, everything including ourselves and Imamat can be symbolic pointing to the real. It is a matter of degree. We as murids are symbolic of partial reality. The Imamat is symbolic of the whole reality.


So you mean our Imam is symbolic and not real. I believe in REAL IMAM. There are many partial imams found in mosques. You wrote; "The Imamat is symbolic of the whole reality". This statement shows present Imam is partial reality.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
But Imam said in an interview he made mistakes. These are not my words and words speak for them selves. These are clear words and there is no batin in it.
As I have been telling you all along and you are not paying attention, the Imam expresses himself according to the capacity of the audience. The Imam made the statement in a public interview, the majority of the audience of which do not have a good understanding of Imamat.

You can decide whether you are a murid who has a better understanding of Imamat and hence the Imam does not make mistakes as in his guidance or you are a non-murid to whom the Imam makes mistakes.


It is in print media that Imam said, "I made mistakes", you can not deny these words. Why Imam made this statement, was he not aware that this will go viral. I have already mentioned may be thrice in my posts that you have double approach or you play both ways. For example; this Imam said for public and this for his murids. I believe Imam's In and Out are same. Either he should has denied, 'No, I do not make mistakes'.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5784

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
I believe Imam's In and Out are same. Either he should has denied, 'No, I do not make mistakes'.


I have asked you previously and I am asked you again: Who exactly are you to say Imam should have said this or Imam should have said that? Do you know better what Imam should have said? Then why don't you apply for the position?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18862

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

So you mean our Imam is symbolic and not real. I believe in REAL IMAM. There are many partial imams found in mosques. You wrote; "The Imamat is symbolic of the whole reality". This statement shows present Imam is partial reality.
You have completely misread my statement. Is that what I said?
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
I believe Imam's In and Out are same. Either he should has denied, 'No, I do not make mistakes'.


I have asked you previously and I am asked you again: Who exactly are you to say Imam should have said this or Imam should have said that? Do you know better what Imam should have said? Then why don't you apply for the position?


This is discussion. We are living in 21st century in information age with freedom of information. As usual you are selecting a line and spinning it. You did not answered what you wrote and I pointed out, you wrote," The Imamat is symbolic of the whole reality", and I threw a question towards you that," your this statement shows present Imam is partial reality.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
I believe Imam's In and Out are same. Either he should has denied, 'No, I do not make mistakes'.


I have asked you previously and I am asked you again: Who exactly are you to say Imam should have said this or Imam should have said that? Do you know better what Imam should have said? Then why don't you apply for the position?


I live in age of freedom of information. I believe what Imam says on public forum or jamaiti forum. I believe Imam do not lie. Do you believe this?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18862

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

I live in age of freedom of information. I believe what Imam says on public forum or jamaiti forum. I believe Imam do not lie. Do you believe this?
That means that according to you, the Imam would make mistakes in his Farmans as well! Is that what a Dai should believe?
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

I live in age of freedom of information. I believe what Imam says on public forum or jamaiti forum. I believe Imam do not lie. Do you believe this?
That means that according to you, the Imam would make mistakes in his Farmans as well! Is that what a Dai should believe?


Hazar Imam said." PERFECTION IS ONLY FOR ALLAH ".
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5784

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Hazar Imam said." PERFECTION IS ONLY FOR ALLAH ".


For once, I agree completely, perfection if for Allah (Noor e Piratan) and for He who is above all else (Noor e Imamah) Already discussed in Imamat thread.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Hazar Imam said." PERFECTION IS ONLY FOR ALLAH ".


For once, I agree completely, perfection if for Allah (Noor e Piratan) and for He who is above all else (Noor e Imamah) Already discussed in Imamat thread.


Are you kmaherali? Please let him reply. He is in discussion with me, thanks.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5784

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Are you kmaherali? Please let him reply. He is in discussion with me, thanks.


NO, this is a Forum, if you have specific question for a specific user, please email him, do not post in this board if it is not part of a public discussion.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18862

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Hazar Imam said." PERFECTION IS ONLY FOR ALLAH ".


For once, I agree completely, perfection if for Allah (Noor e Piratan) and for He who is above all else (Noor e Imamah) Already discussed in Imamat thread.
Hence mistakes cannot be made by the perfect entity in reality.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Hazar Imam said." PERFECTION IS ONLY FOR ALLAH ".


For once, I agree completely, perfection if for Allah (Noor e Piratan) and for He who is above all else (Noor e Imamah) Already discussed in Imamat thread.
Hence mistakes cannot be made by the perfect entity in reality.


When Imam said,"Perfection is only for Allah", he did not included Pir or Imam. If you want to deduce something out of nothing it is a different story.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5784

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

When Imam said,"Perfection is only for Allah", he did not included Pir or Imam. If you want to deduce something out of nothing it is a different story.


As I have said before, one can not discuss advanced Algebra with first graders who do not have the proper foundation in the subject. I will soon be deleting your account for not following the rules of postings in practically all the threads where you post. KM is welcome to email you if he want to continue conversation with you outside this Forum as you have requested.

In a house, there is a place called dining room to eat, kitchen to cook, washroom to do your cleaning and sleeping room to sleep. When a guest starts doing his poo poo in all the rooms even after explaining the importance of the rules of posting, it is high time to get rid of him or put a diaper on him.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18862

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

When Imam said,"Perfection is only for Allah", he did not included Pir or Imam. If you want to deduce something out of nothing it is a different story.
I thought you were a Dai who posted articles on the Noor of Imamat - the light which cannot be extinguished.

Or you don't believe in matters that you post!
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

When Imam said,"Perfection is only for Allah", he did not included Pir or Imam. If you want to deduce something out of nothing it is a different story.
I thought you were a Dai who posted articles on the Noor of Imamat - the light which cannot be extinguished.

Or you don't believe in matters that you post!


I believe Ali is every thing for me but Allah. I believe in PREAMBLE the Farman given by Hazar Imam. Preamble is the real explanation of Ismailism.


Last edited by shivaathervedi on Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18862

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

I believe Ali is every thing for me but Allah. I believe in PREAMBLE the Farman given by Hazar Imam. Preamble is the real explanation of Ismailism.
The Qur'an says that Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. You posted on page 9 of the thread on Imamat that the Light is the light of Imamat. So isn't Allah the Light of Imamat?
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

I believe Ali is every thing for me but Allah. I believe in PREAMBLE the Farman given by Hazar Imam. Preamble is the real explanation of Ismailism.
The Qur'an says that Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. You posted on page 9 of the thread on Imamat that the Light is the light of Imamat. So isn't Allah the Light of Imamat?


Ali is Mazhar of Allah. Ali is Noor of Allah and not Allah.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18862

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Ali is Mazhar of Allah. Ali is Noor of Allah and not Allah.
The Qur'an tells us that Allah is the Noor as in Allahu Nuru Samawaati wal Ardh.

There is more on this subject at:

Allah and the Nur of Allah

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Ali is Mazhar of Allah. Ali is Noor of Allah and not Allah.
The Qur'an tells us that Allah is the Noor as in Allahu Nuru Samawaati wal Ardh.

There is more on this subject at:

Allah and the Nur of Allah

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=101&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=


True Allah is Noor of havens and earth, and Murtaza Ali is Noor of Allah. I have been discussing this issue on this site more than year and have read all threads on this subject.
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