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Homosexuality
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 1111

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Other question;

What Homosexuality has to do with Ismaili Heritage? Is this an Ismaili Tariqa issue?
We are not immune to the influences around us. Hence we have Ismailis who drink, gamble and are homesexuals as well. When we have Ismailis who are homesexuals, it becomes a Tariqa issue.


Absurd!!
You wrote," When we have Ismailis who are homosexuals, it becomes a Tariqa issue".
No, it is not a Tariqa issue but a moral issue, an ethical issue. Imam said," follow the ethical values of Islam". Homosexuality has nothing to do with Ismaili ethical values.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 1111

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
I was once attending a conference by Desmond Tutu and one sentence he said struck me, he said there are so many problems in the world that why should we waste time on what people do in their bedroom.

I think this becomes an issue when people who are homosexuals parade the streets with board which says "Ismaili" then they use and misuse our names in the same way people brand Muslim of "Terrorist" and generalise that they do what they do because they are Muslims!

These are personnal issues which people should not brand as they are "Ismaili Gay and Lesbian". I don't have anything against them but why put the name "Ismaili queers" which would generalised their choice and attempt to label a whole community for their own advantage as an approved community standard which it is not.


I agree with you. Any Gay or Lesbian should not use word Ismaili with them. In North America Problem popped up when a Lady from Canada on TV shows declared herself as a Lesbian belong to Ismaili faith. Shameful statements have hurt Ismaili faith.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5569

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are even worse, a group of people paraded in Toronto with large board saying that they were "Ismaili" Gay and Lesbian. Why not a board saying "Canadian" Gay and Lesbian, why bring religion into it?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 17865

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
Absurd!!
You wrote," When we have Ismailis who are homosexuals, it becomes a Tariqa issue".
No, it is not a Tariqa issue but a moral issue, an ethical issue. Imam said," follow the ethical values of Islam". Homosexuality has nothing to do with Ismaili ethical values.
Are you saying moral and ethical issues are not Tariqah issues? What are the messages of the Qur'an and the Ginans about? I am not saying whether homosexuality is acceptable or not, I am simply saying that it is something we have to deal with in our Tariqah.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 1111

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
Absurd!!
You wrote," When we have Ismailis who are homosexuals, it becomes a Tariqa issue".
No, it is not a Tariqa issue but a moral issue, an ethical issue. Imam said," follow the ethical values of Islam". Homosexuality has nothing to do with Ismaili ethical values.
Are you saying moral and ethical issues are not Tariqah issues? What are the messages of the Qur'an and the Ginans about? I am not saying whether homosexuality is acceptable or not, I am simply saying that it is something we have to deal with in our Tariqah.


In my opinion Admin should not had allowed this topic on Ismaili Heritage. My point is homosexuality is not Ismaili Heritage. Why to propagate it on this site, if yes then what is the agenda? Ismaili Tariqa has nothing to do with it. This should stay private and not propagated. I think this topic should be deleted from this site for good.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5569

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This discussion is justified in view of the fact that changing laws in some countries allow 2 people of same gendre to get married as marriage definition has changed from man and women to "between 2 persons".

Recently a women married her dog because since dogs can inherit, some judge has ruled that a dog is a person.

Now imagine a situation where a woman comes to Mukhi with her legally wedded dog and say we want to get married religiously and get blessings?

They may say that our Constitution respect the law of the land.

This will happen and the discussion is healthy and necessary.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 1111

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
This discussion is justified in view of the fact that changing laws in some countries allow 2 people of same gendre to get married as marriage definition has changed from man and women to "between 2 persons".

Recently a women married her dog because since dogs can inherit, some judge has ruled that a dog is a person.

Now imagine a situation where a woman comes to Mukhi with her legally wedded dog and say we want to get married religiously and get blessings?

They may say that our Constitution respect the law of the land.

This will happen and the discussion is healthy and necessary.


If constitution of a particular country dictates don't recite Du'a, will an Ismaili obey the Farman or the constitution?
We are Muslims, and Islam does not allow marriage of a woman with a dog or a monkey. I don't think an Ismaili woman dare to bring a dog in three piece suit with neck tie in front of Mukhi to recite Nikah Khutba.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 17865

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:


If constitution of a particular country dictates don't recite Du'a, will an Ismaili obey the Farman or the constitution?
If the law of the land does not allow us to practice our faith, we should not live in that land. That is the guidance of the Imam.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 17865

PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

I have a question for you, did any Pir in Ginans mentioned about homosexuality, gay and lesbians?
I have not come across any references in the Ginans. I know of Ginans which mention the prohibition of extra marital sex.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 17865

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How homosexuality became a crime in the Middle East

Colonialism, culture wars and fundamentalist politicians have restricted sexual freedom


IN THE 13th and 14th centuries two celebrated male poets wrote about men in affectionate, even amorous, terms. They were Rumi and Hafiz, and both lived in what is now Iran. Their musings were neither new nor unusual. Centuries earlier Abu Nuwas, a bawdy poet from Baghdad, wrote lewd verses about same-sex desire. Such relative openness towards homosexual love used to be widespread in the Middle East. Khaled El-Rouayheb, an academic at Harvard University, explains that though sodomy was deemed a major sin by Muslim courts of law, other homosexual acts such as passionate kissing, fondling or lesbian sex were not. Homoerotic poetry was widely considered part of a “refined sensibility”, he says.

The modern Middle East views the subject very differently. A survey by Pew Research Centre in 2013 found that most people in the region believe homosexuality should be rejected: 97% in Jordan, 95% in Egypt and 80% in Lebanon. In 2007 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, then the president of Iran, told a crowd of incredulous students at Columbia University in New York that “in Iran we don’t have homosexuals”. In 2001 the Egyptian Ministry of Culture burnt 6,000 volumes of Abu Nuwas’s poetry. What happened?

More...
https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/06/06/how-homosexuality-became-a-crime-in-the-middle-east?cid1=cust/ddnew/email/n/n/2018067n/owned/n/n/ddnew/n/n/n/nna/Daily_Dispatch/email&etear=dailydispatch
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 17865

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanzania's anti-homosexuality purge is making Ottawa anxious

Official anti-gay prejudice in Tanzania is causing Canadian officials to reassess this country's relationship with one of Canada's biggest aid recipients.

Arrests of gay men in Zanzibar over the weekend, and the launch of "anti-gay patrols" in the capital Dar es Salaam on Monday, are the latest incidents to alarm Canadian diplomats. They've come up this week at high-level meetings involving not only Canadian and Tanzanian officials but also those of other western donor nations.

Tanzania's homophobic actions are particularly uncomfortable for Canada, which gave Tanzania more than $125 milllion in direct aid last year, making it Canada's sixth-largest aid recipient in the world.

Canada co-chairs the Equal Rights Coalition, a group of 40 nations that Canada helped to create. The coalition promotes LGBT equality around the world and has roundly condemned some of the practices used in Tanzania — particularly the use of forced anal exams to collect "evidence" of homosexual behaviour, which in Tanzania can lead to a life sentence in prison.

More..
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/tanzanias-anti-homosexuality-purge-is-making-ottawa-anxious/ar-BBPxJCX?li=AAggNb9
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