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AJD



Joined: 23 Sep 2017
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The book of Asal Dua is present at Library in Karachi (ITREB, Pakistan). You cannot say that the book is not there if you can not find it. In fact, there are so many books preserved in the library (Khojki and Gujarati) Section. I do not appreciate the way they have kept as they dis regard this literature and give preference to literature and books written in classical Islamic languages.

You need to know where to search for what!! icon_wink.gif
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. AJD,
I know the set up of library. Upper portion and lower portion. No doubt lower portion is not well organized. About your claim that Asal Dua by Pir Sadardin in original form is available in Library, I doubted. I have seen 1950 Dua edition in which MSMS MADE CHANGES. If you have seen the booklet, what is the printing date on that, how many pages it contains, in what script it is, and published by which institution?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 16729

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
I quoted 6000 because our Dais mentioned each cycle of 1000 years of Natiq and Asas. I pesonally do not insist on 6000 years figure the reason is there were 124,000 paigambers, if we divide it with 6000, the result is 20.66, so every 20/21 years God authorized a Paigambar!.
Correction, it would be 6000/124000 = 18 days!. Hence, according to your understanding Allah would appoint a prophet very 18 days!
shivaathervedi wrote:

You are well aware that confidential and classified Farmans are delivered in CAMERA, it is not for trainee missionaries except may be few trusted..
What is the use of Hidayats remaining in cameras, if they cannot be even accessible to waezeens! It is as good as no Hidayats at all!
shivaathervedi wrote:

Avtars are role models, in Ginans Prophet is called Brahma and Quran says, LAKAD KAAN LAKUM FI RASULLILAHI USWATUN HASANAH.
You have the best role model in the life of Prophet.
We don't follow the sunna of the Prophet and Imams! We are not Sunnis. Imams are Pure by birth and they do not have to purify themselves through Ibadat. We as murids have to purify ourselves.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 16729

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
I requested complete Asal Dua given by Pir Sadardin. It is not available at ITREB Karachi library which is one of the best Ismaili library. I asked a friend in Mumbai, if that is available in Ismaili library there. The answer was negative. I am not sure about IIS library. Where is the Asal Dua? ( zameen kha gai ya aasman nigal gaya). Also I am unable to locate the special Dua which was given to Central Asian Ismailis through Pir SabzAli! No where available.
The source you mentioned to try on heritage is not a complete Asal Dua, but just 77 patras. Even Noorun ala Noor by missionary Shamsuddin Bande Ali does not have Asal Dua. It shows Satpunthi Ismailis are unable to protect their valuable Heritage!!
Our interest in this discussion relates to the genealogy of the Imams given in the Asal Dua. This has been provided. Other aspects of the Asal Dua have nothing to do with this discussion.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
I requested complete Asal Dua given by Pir Sadardin. It is not available at ITREB Karachi library which is one of the best Ismaili library. I asked a friend in Mumbai, if that is available in Ismaili library there. The answer was negative. I am not sure about IIS library. Where is the Asal Dua? ( zameen kha gai ya aasman nigal gaya). Also I am unable to locate the special Dua which was given to Central Asian Ismailis through Pir SabzAli! No where available.
The source you mentioned to try on heritage is not a complete Asal Dua, but just 77 patras. Even Noorun ala Noor by missionary Shamsuddin Bande Ali does not have Asal Dua. It shows Satpunthi Ismailis are unable to protect their valuable Heritage!!
Our interest in this discussion relates to the genealogy of the Imams given in the Asal Dua. This has been provided. Other aspects of the Asal Dua have nothing to do with this discussion.


My question is about COMPLETE Asal Dua written by Pir Sadardin. Where is that???
I know about 77 Patras, it is not a new thing for me. There are flaws in the list. Just think, we have only 77 names spread on thousands of years, where as in past 1400 years we have 49 Imams!!
The genealogy mentioned from Abu Talib on ward to Ismael is COMMON in Shia and Sunni Muslim historical books and they were not Imams.
How come Haarun and Peter Simon included in that list, they belong to Isaac genealogy?


Last edited by shivaathervedi on Fri May 25, 2018 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
I quoted 6000 because our Dais mentioned each cycle of 1000 years of Natiq and Asas. I pesonally do not insist on 6000 years figure the reason is there were 124,000 paigambers, if we divide it with 6000, the result is 20.66, so every 20/21 years God authorized a Paigambar!.
Correction, it would be 6000/124000 = 18 days!. Hence, according to your understanding Allah would appoint a prophet very 18 days!
shivaathervedi wrote:

You are well aware that confidential and classified Farmans are delivered in CAMERA, it is not for trainee missionaries except may be few trusted..
What is the use of Hidayats remaining in cameras, if they cannot be even accessible to waezeens! It is as good as no Hidayats at all!
shivaathervedi wrote:

Avtars are role models, in Ginans Prophet is called Brahma and Quran says, LAKAD KAAN LAKUM FI RASULLILAHI USWATUN HASANAH.
You have the best role model in the life of Prophet.
We don't follow the sunna of the Prophet and Imams! We are not Sunnis. Imams are Pure by birth and they do not have to purify themselves through Ibadat. We as murids have to purify ourselves.


You missed my point again. I wrote," Personally I do not insists on 6000 years figure...". 6000 years is mentioned by our Dais in connection to our 1000 years cycle of Asas and Natiq.

The most sensitive Hidayat is delivered and explained through senior missionaries or Ismaili officials on instructions of Hazar Imam by keeping sentiments of jamaits in consideration so that they should not hurt. The trainee, young and unexperienced missionaries can fail to deliver the proper message.

It is not the question of Sunnism, Quran says about Prophet," LAKAD KAAN LAKUM FI RASULLILAHI USWATUN HASANAH". You have the best role model in the life of Prophet. As Prophet designate Ali his successor therefore Ali is also the best role model for momins.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 16729

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
My question is about COMPLETE Asal Dua written by Pir Sadardin. Where is that???
I know about 77 Patras, it is not a new thing for me. There are flaws in the list. Just think, we have only 77 names spread on thousands of years, where as in past 1400 years we have 49 Imams!!?
As I said the complete Dua is not necessary for our present discussion. I agree with you that 77 patras is not a complete list. If you look at the least only a handful of names have been given for Satya Yuga, Treta Yuga and Dwapur Yuga which were more greater in period than Kali Yuga. However for Kali Yuga beginning with Hazarat Sish about 30 names have been given which looks like a complete or near complete list (otherwise only a handful would have been given as other Yugas)
shivaathervedi wrote:

How come Haarun and Peter Simon included in that list, they belong to Isaac genealogy?
Because they were the Imams. They couldn't have been from the Issac genealogy.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 16729

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

You missed my point again. I wrote," Personally I do not insists on 6000 years figure...". 6000 years is mentioned by our Dais in connection to our 1000 years cycle of Asas and Natiq..
So what is your understanding about the time frame of creation?
shivaathervedi wrote:

The most sensitive Hidayat is delivered and explained through senior missionaries or Ismaili officials on instructions of Hazar Imam by keeping sentiments of jamaits in consideration so that they should not hurt. The trainee, young and unexperienced missionaries can fail to deliver the proper message..
Can you provide example of the senior missionaries qualified for this task? And their efforts to convey the Hidayats?
shivaathervedi wrote:

It is not the question of Sunnism, Quran says about Prophet," LAKAD KAAN LAKUM FI RASULLILAHI USWATUN HASANAH". You have the best role model in the life of Prophet. As Prophet designate Ali his successor therefore Ali is also the best role model for momins.
So MHI does not attend JK to perform the rituals, so we should not attend JK as well? Since he is our model.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
My question is about COMPLETE Asal Dua written by Pir Sadardin. Where is that???
I know about 77 Patras, it is not a new thing for me. There are flaws in the list. Just think, we have only 77 names spread on thousands of years, where as in past 1400 years we have 49 Imams!!?
As I said the complete Dua is not necessary for our present discussion. I agree with you that 77 patras is not a complete list. If you look at the least only a handful of names have been given for Satya Yuga, Treta Yuga and Dwapur Yuga which were more greater in period than Kali Yuga. However for Kali Yuga beginning with Hazarat Sish about 30 names have been given which looks like a complete or near complete list (otherwise only a handful would have been given as other Yugas)
shivaathervedi wrote:

How come Haarun and Peter Simon included in that list, they belong to Isaac genealogy?
Because they were the Imams. They couldn't have been from the Issac genealogy.


My simple question is where is the Asal Dua written by Pir Sadardin? When Ginans and Granths of Pir Sadardin are preserved why not Asal Dua which is most important to compare with present Dua, and for research purpose.
My question was not about Patras, you deliberately brought in Patras to divert attention of readers as per your usual habit.

You did not shed light on the genealogy from Abu Talib upward till Ismael. The names mentionwed in Patras are same as mentioned in Sunni and Shia sources and THEY WERE NOT IMAMS.

Haarun was a Prophet and not Imam. From where this Peter Simon popped up. He was not an Imam. The HAWARIYUN of Christ betrayed him. Historically Haarun was from Isaac genealogy and belonged to series of Israeli Prophets.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

You missed my point again. I wrote," Personally I do not insists on 6000 years figure...". 6000 years is mentioned by our Dais in connection to our 1000 years cycle of Asas and Natiq..
So what is your understanding about the time frame of creation?
shivaathervedi wrote:

The most sensitive Hidayat is delivered and explained through senior missionaries or Ismaili officials on instructions of Hazar Imam by keeping sentiments of jamaits in consideration so that they should not hurt. The trainee, young and unexperienced missionaries can fail to deliver the proper message..
Can you provide example of the senior missionaries qualified for this task? And their efforts to convey the Hidayats?
shivaathervedi wrote:

It is not the question of Sunnism, Quran says about Prophet," LAKAD KAAN LAKUM FI RASULLILAHI USWATUN HASANAH". You have the best role model in the life of Prophet. As Prophet designate Ali his successor therefore Ali is also the best role model for momins.
So MHI does not attend JK to perform the rituals, so we should not attend JK as well? Since he is our model.


I personally do not believe in this 6000 years period as mentioned in Israeli literature or Islamic literature or cycle of 6000 years as mentioned by Dais in Fatimid era which you mentioned as exaggerated figures in one of your post.

After 1975 Paris conference where it was approved by Imam that KIM will not be reprinted and should not be quoted frequently except abridged edition named Gohar e Rahmat. Question arose how to deliver that Hidayat to jamaits. This was a serious issue, therefore only selected senior missionaries and some ITREB officials were given task to explain jamaits without hurting feelings of jamaits on instructions of Imam. There was havoc and rage in jamaits and few officials were mistreated by some jamaiti members at that time. This would not have been possible by trainee missionaries.

Prophet Muhammad and Mowla Ali did prayed with followers, why not Imam.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 16729

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

I personally do not believe in this 6000 years period as mentioned in Israeli literature or Islamic literature or cycle of 6000 years as mentioned by Dais in Fatimid era which you mentioned as exaggerated figures in one of your post..
So what do you believe in?
shivaathervedi wrote:

After 1975 Paris conference where it was approved by Imam that KIM will not be reprinted and should not be quoted frequently except abridged edition named Gohar e Rahmat. Question arose how to deliver that Hidayat to jamaits. This was a serious issue, therefore only selected senior missionaries and some ITREB officials were given task to explain jamaits without hurting feelings of jamaits on instructions of Imam. There was havoc and rage in jamaits and few officials were mistreated by some jamaiti members at that time. This would not have been possible by trainee missionaries..
Generally the Jamats have always followed the guidance of the Imam even when there have been radical changes. For example, there was a change of Dua from Gujerati to Arabic, change of li zikri his sujood, Ali Sahi Allah to Aliyullah. So if there is indeed guidance about the restriction of KIM, I don't see any reason why the Jamats would not follow.

Jamats generally have suspicions when missionaries introduce changes which seem questionable. What is so sensitive about KIM that the Imam would hesitate to give direct guidance to the Jamat?
shivaathervedi wrote:

Prophet Muhammad and Mowla Ali did prayed with followers, why not Imam.
A murid is not supposed to question the actions of the Living Imam. The Imam does not follow the past Imams or the Prophet. He acts according to his time.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 16729

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

You did not shed light on the genealogy from Abu Talib upward till Ismael. The names mentionwed in Patras are same as mentioned in Sunni and Shia sources and THEY WERE NOT IMAMS..
The names were there in the Asal Dua given by Pir Sadardeen. How can you say that they were not Imams.

Below is the complete genealogy from Hazarat Adam to Hazarat Ali. It was given by late Alwaez Shamshu Bandali Haji

*Adam

Seth

Enosh

Kenan

Mahalalel

Jared

Enoch

Lamech

*Noah

Shem

Arphachshad

Salam

Eber

Peleg

Reu

Serug

Nehor

Tehar

*Abraham

Ismael

Kedar

Hamal

Salaman

Nabat

Al-Immaysam (not clear)

Udad

Udd

Adnan

Maadd

Nizar

Mudar

Ilyas

Mudriku

Khuzayma

Kinana

An-nadr

Malik

Fihr

Ghalib

Luayy

Kab

Murra

Kilaab

Qusayy

Abd Manaf

Hashim

Abd Al-Muttalib

Abu Talib

Hazarat Ali

Note that there are 49 nine names and hence the time period of the occurrence of Hazarat Adam would be around 700 - (28 X 49) = 672 BC.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Haarun was a Prophet and not Imam. From where this Peter Simon popped up. He was not an Imam. The HAWARIYUN of Christ betrayed him. Historically Haarun was from Isaac genealogy and belonged to series of Israeli Prophets.
Haarun and Peter Simon are given in Asal Dua as Imams.

Last edited by kmaherali on Mon May 28, 2018 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5332

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the Asal Ghat pat ji Dua we have 2 lists, that one of Imams and that one of Pirs. (Many of the Imams also having been Pirs at the same time)

In the genealogy of Imams, we have the names of Imams after the Das Avatar but also names of the Imams before the Das Avatar.

some of the names of Imams before the names of the Das Avatar are similar to names of deities of the Sumerian and Mesopotamian civilizations. This is a whole area of research.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 16729

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
In the genealogy of Imams, we have the names of Imams after the Das Avatar but also names of the Imams before the Das Avatar.
What do you mean by 'after the Das Avtar'. The present Imam is part of Das Avtar,
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

I personally do not believe in this 6000 years period as mentioned in Israeli literature or Islamic literature or cycle of 6000 years as mentioned by Dais in Fatimid era which you mentioned as exaggerated figures in one of your post..
So what do you believe in?
shivaathervedi wrote:

After 1975 Paris conference where it was approved by Imam that KIM will not be reprinted and should not be quoted frequently except abridged edition named Gohar e Rahmat. Question arose how to deliver that Hidayat to jamaits. This was a serious issue, therefore only selected senior missionaries and some ITREB officials were given task to explain jamaits without hurting feelings of jamaits on instructions of Imam. There was havoc and rage in jamaits and few officials were mistreated by some jamaiti members at that time. This would not have been possible by trainee missionaries..
Generally the Jamats have always followed the guidance of the Imam even when there have been radical changes. For example, there was a change of Dua from Gujerati to Arabic, change of li zikri his sujood, Ali Sahi Allah to Aliyullah. So if there is indeed guidance about the restriction of KIM, I don't see any reason why the Jamats would not follow.

Jamats generally have suspicions when missionaries introduce changes which seem questionable. What is so sensitive about KIM that the Imam would hesitate to give direct guidance to the Jamat?
shivaathervedi wrote:

Prophet Muhammad and Mowla Ali did prayed with followers, why not Imam.
A murid is not supposed to question the actions of the Living Imam. The Imam does not follow the past Imams or the Prophet. He acts according to his time.


Generally there are two options to understand mysteries of universe.Either we depend on religious scriptures or on scientific research. Science says universe is 14.5 billions year old but a man as seen today in complete package and body structure is about 50,000 years old. The monotheist religions claim the man is around 6000/7000 years old. I do not believe in both figures. In my opinion THE MAHA PRUSH OR AL INSANUL KAMIL IS FROM VERY BEGINING.

I was told by a reliable person that when Hidayat about KIM was explained to jamaits in one of JK in Karachi, some jamaits out of anger and rage almost beaten the official. For example, on the subject of Surah Ikhlas I have a quote from Hidayat of Imam. In 1964 during a religious gathering of missionaries Imam said," Be careful, this should be done without hurting the feelings of my elderly children".

It is not the questioning of Imam's action but the historical fact is The Prophet and Mowla Ali did prayed with their followers. Even Mowla Ali prayed behind Prophet.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

You did not shed light on the genealogy from Abu Talib upward till Ismael. The names mentionwed in Patras are same as mentioned in Sunni and Shia sources and THEY WERE NOT IMAMS..
The names were there in the Asal Dua given by Pir Sadardeen. How can you say that they were not Imams.

Below is the complete genealogy from Hazarat Adam to Hazarat Ali. It was given by late Alwaez Shamshu Bandali Haji

*Adam

Seth

Enosh

Kenan

Mahalalel

Jared

Enoch

Lamech

*Noah

Shem

Arphachshad

Salam

Eber

Peleg

Reu

Serug

Nehor

Tehar

*Abraham

Ismael

Kedar

Hamal

Salaman

Nabat

Al-Immaysam (not clear)

Udad

Udd

Adnan

Maadd

Nizar

Mudar

Ilyas

Mudriku

Khuzayma

Kinana

An-nadr

Malik

Fihr

Ghalib

Luayy

Kab

Murra

Kilaab

Qusayy

Abd Manaf

Hashim

Abd Al-Muttalib

Abu Talib

Hazarat Ali

Note that there are 49 nine names and hence the time period of the occurrence of Hazarat Adam would be around 700 - (28 X 49) = 672 BC.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Haarun was a Prophet and not Imam. From where this Peter Simon popped up. He was not an Imam. The HAWARIYUN of Christ betrayed him. Historically Haarun was from Isaac genealogy and belonged to series of Israeli Prophets.
Haarun and Peter Simon are given in Asal Dua as Imams.



Sorry to write this Punjabi proverb do not take it literally," JITHEY THI KHOTI UTHEY AAN KHILOTI". We are still there from where we started.
Question stands firm," Where is the Asal Dua ". Have you seen it. Sure if Admin had this Asal Dua, he should have posted it long ago.
Late Alwaiz Shams Bandeh Ali Haji has mentioned it as separate list at end of his published lectures. But from research point of view, from where he got that list has not mentioned.

Sorry,I call it a cheating. You disappear the names of Haroon and Simon Peter from the list you mentioned, where as the list you provided in the thread IMAM AND IMAMAT you have included these names there. Simon Peter betrayed Jesus Christ.

In any non Khoja Ismaili literature Haroon and Simon are not mentioned as Imams.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5332

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
Admin wrote:
In the genealogy of Imams, we have the names of Imams after the Das Avatar but also names of the Imams before the Das Avatar.
What do you mean by 'after the Das Avtar'. The present Imam is part of Das Avtar,


I mean after the 9 avatars icon_smile.gif
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another list of Imams is in Abu Firas' "Ash Shafiya". I am saying this from memory as I read it few decades ago and does not have the book handy. From memory, it had names of Imam before Hazrat Ali. If someone has it handy, we can check.

In "non-khoja" sources Simon Peter is called Mowlana Shamun al Safa as Imam with Jesus. The vocabulary has correspondences such as Malik ul Salam for Melchisedek, Shish for Seth, Harun for Aaron, Honayd for Buddh Avatar etc...

My favorite is the Indian name for Muhammad Mustafa which is Mamad Mawji. So there are equivalent between languages even though some name do not look familiar, it is a matter of digging further.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 16729

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
I was told by a reliable person that when Hidayat about KIM was explained to jamaits in one of JK in Karachi, some jamaits out of anger and rage almost beaten the official. For example, on the subject of Surah Ikhlas I have a quote from Hidayat of Imam. In 1964 during a religious gathering of missionaries Imam said," Be careful, this should be done without hurting the feelings of my elderly children"..
As I said there is nothing sensitive about KIM to warrant Hidayat to be transmitted through senior missionaries. The Jamats have always responded to direct Hidayats of the Imam so long as there is evidence of it.
shivaathervedi wrote:

It is not the questioning of Imam's action but the historical fact is The Prophet and Mowla Ali did prayed with their followers. Even Mowla Ali prayed behind Prophet.
I am not denying the historical facts. All I am saying is that the Imams cannot be our role models.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 16729

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Sorry,I call it a cheating. You disappear the names of Haroon and Simon Peter from the list you mentioned, where as the list you provided in the thread IMAM AND IMAMAT you have included these names there. Simon Peter betrayed Jesus Christ.

In any non Khoja Ismaili literature Haroon and Simon are not mentioned as Imams.
The whole purpose of providing the genealogy was not to give an accurate picture, but rather to establish the approximate time frame of Hazarat Adam. One or two names missing or more will not change the approximate date of Hazarat Adam.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
kmaherali wrote:
Admin wrote:
In the genealogy of Imams, we have the names of Imams after the Das Avatar but also names of the Imams before the Das Avatar.
What do you mean by 'after the Das Avtar'. The present Imam is part of Das Avtar,


I mean after the 9 avatars icon_smile.gif


I think I forgot to mention something important to this discussion, in the Asal Ghat Paat ji Dua of Pir Sadardin and in Gavantri of Pir Sadardin there are also some names of Imams between each of the avatars of the Das Avatar.

For example after Buddh Avatar, it says Buddh maa thi Shish, Saam, Malkin, Eslaam, and so on as seen below.

This page is from a manuscript that is fairly old (about 120 years old and contains the Kalima ending with Ali Sahi Allah.) It is part of the many manuscripts that will be made available once catalogued.

This one does not have the best of the handwritting but there are many similar in better script as many of the Ismaili Khojki manuscript did contain the Asal Dua or the larger version, the Asal Ghat Pat ji Dua.

This page below is from Gavantri of Pir Sadardin. I came across while cataloguing. I will post the exact similar genealogy from Asal Ghat Pat ji Dua once I come across it in another manuscript.

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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand that only a limited number of Ismailis can still read Khojki but many more reads Gujrati so I have tried to find references to names of Imams in Gujrati scripts Ismaili manuscripts.

There is a Gujrati version of the Asal Ghat Pat ji Dua of Pir Sadardin in this manuscript dated 1896 found in Mumbai, and it gives names of Imams before the Das Avatars such as Alakh, Namnil, Anil, Sun, San, Nan, Ginan, Noor, Tej etc. one could see a strong symbolism in the choice of these names. The manuscript is half in Khojki script and half in Gujrati script.

Names of Imam before the Das Avatar are not found in any Hindu sources but some are found as names of God, as I said previously, in Sumerian and Mesopotamian sources.



This below is from a page of a manuscript in Gujrati script (Gat Pat Dua is in Kutchhi) which is dated 1893, around the same period but looks copied from an older manuscript as it does contain Farmans of Aga Hassanali Shah's mother Pir Bibi Sarkar. This one comes from East Africa.

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