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Four type of Deedar
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FreeLancer



Joined: 13 Feb 2018
Posts: 182

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shery, so you think that Imam is starting BK majlis because of materialism. I don't think so. The reason is, as I know majority of jamaits of Hunza, Gilgit, Baltistan, Chitral and surrounding areas are pure in thoughts and ethics. May be some people who migrated to Karachi and abroad are exceptional cases.
Niaz is common in these jamaits or at other placesin Central Asian Jamaits.
Photo is not compulsory. It is not included in our articles of faith
In place of ginans they recite Qasida.
As people live in mountainous areas, therefore JK's may be at distance places.

My argument was not about timings i.e 4-5. I never argue on Farmans. I just gave historical back ground. Historically in Islam BK type gathering was initiated in time of Prophet Muihammad which is called spiritual gathering of ASHAB E SUFA. Timings were from mid night to Subah sadiq. Quran also mentions ibadat from mid night till morning in Surah Muzzamil. This same practice followed in Ismailis. In the beginning of the Imamat of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah it was from mid night which Imam reduced to one hour from 4-5.
In Islam Zikr is common and there is no need of any batini concept for spiritual improvement. JO DHUNDHEY GA WOHI PAIGA depends upon Niyyah.
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:
Shery, so you think that Imam is starting BK majlis because of materialism.


Nope, I don't. I mentioned in an earlier post that prophet muhammad use to go in a cave to do Ibadat. The Imam has mentioned that this practice of BuK was done since the time of the Prophet and continues until Today. My motive for giving many other reasons was to show that we don't know what is the real reason for not having BuK in those regions. It could be for any of the reasons that I mentioned in my earlier post or even for a reason that I may have not mentioned.

I will reiterate:
No one knows the real reason for this - only the Imam does. When he has told us that "The time between 4-5 is fixed for Ibadat" then why question what the Imam tells us. Either you accept what the Imam tells you, or you try to find excuses so that you can disagree.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:
In my opinion Zikr ibadat was not practiced at that time in khoja/momina communities while it was practiced in other Ismail areas, or in first place it was a training course as khojas/mominas were not pronouncing proper Arabic names or attribute names, for example calling Ya Azim as Ajeem, Zul Jalal as Jul Jalal, ( recently on internet the names of Indian Ismailis poped up as Ramjan instead of Ramzan, Ashiq Ali as Asik Ali and so on), or it could have been to strengthen their iman, or it was already practiced in Central Asian and Arab jamiats, therefore it was started in sub continent followers for spiritual progress. Wallah a'alim.
Zikr was always practiced since the time our forefathers were converted. Ginans are full of advice on zikr. So it is not true to say that the khojas did not practice zikr.

Zikr has nothing to do with pronunciation. It is the meaning that is important.

BOL was not practiced in Central Asia.
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FreeLancer



Joined: 13 Feb 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sheri wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:
Shery, so you think that Imam is starting BK majlis because of materialism.


Nope, I don't. I mentioned in an earlier post that prophet muhammad use to go in a cave to do Ibadat. The Imam has mentioned that this practice of BuK was done since the time of the Prophet and continues until Today. My motive for giving many other reasons was to show that we don't know what is the real reason for not having BuK in those regions. It could be for any of the reasons that I mentioned in my earlier post or even for a reason that I may have not mentioned.

I will reiterate:
No one knows the real reason for this - only the Imam does. When he has told us that "The time between 4-5 is fixed for Ibadat" then why question what the Imam tells us. Either you accept what the Imam tells you, or you try to find excuses so that you can disagree.



I shall reaffirm that I don't argue Farmans. At present BK timings are 4-5 am may be in future Imam reduce it for half an hour, when it is already reduced from 6 hours to one hour. (from Imam Shah Hasan Ali to Imam Shah Sultan Muhammad Shah). May be burden of life, people sleep in late hours of night because of various reasons. Let me quote a Hadith of Prophet," He told companions that what you practice to day (salat,ibadat,religious work), in future the same reward shall be given to Muslims who will practice just 10% of what you do".
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FreeLancer



Joined: 13 Feb 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:
In my opinion Zikr ibadat was not practiced at that time in khoja/momina communities while it was practiced in other Ismail areas, or in first place it was a training course as khojas/mominas were not pronouncing proper Arabic names or attribute names, for example calling Ya Azim as Ajeem, Zul Jalal as Jul Jalal, ( recently on internet the names of Indian Ismailis poped up as Ramjan instead of Ramzan, Ashiq Ali as Asik Ali and so on), or it could have been to strengthen their iman, or it was already practiced in Central Asian and Arab jamiats, therefore it was started in sub continent followers for spiritual progress. Wallah a'alim.
Zikr was always practiced since the time our forefathers were converted. Ginans are full of advice on zikr. So it is not true to say that the khojas did not practice zikr.

Zikr has nothing to do with pronunciation. It is the meaning that is important.

BOL was not practiced in Central Asia.


Still Bol is not practiced in Central Asians Ismailis because they are not bestowed Bol by Imam.
No doubt advice of Zikr is present in ginans. Did Pir Sadardin gave Bol to his followers?
With wrong pronunciation meaning changes. For example; Murtadha and Murtada, walad dhaleen and waladalin, Shai'in and shayan, ya zaljalal and ya juljalal and Ya Aliyul ajeem and so on.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:

With wrong pronunciation meaning changes. For example; Murtadha and Murtada, walad dhaleen and waladalin, Shai'in and shayan, ya zaljalal and ya juljalal and Ya Aliyul ajeem and so on.


God looks at the intention and never at the pronunciation this is why there are no Farmans on the pronunciation of the Dua but there are on the meaning.

Arab say D and Persian pronounce Z and Indian say J why make a fuss about pronunciation which may disturb some races but certainly does not disturb God.

Even amongst Arabs there are regional variance: Egyptians pronounce Gamal and other pronounce Jamal

And when Hazar Imam speaks of his ancestor Hazrat Ali (not Hadrat Ali) do you think he knows the name of his ancestor better than you do? Are you going to say that our pronunciation should be that of Arab Mullas or Persian Mullas? of Egyptian Mullas or of Iraki Mullas??

And when Hazar Imam speaks of his ancestor Hazrat Ali (not Hadrat Ali) do you think he knows the name of his ancestor better than you do?

"Arbi Arbi karnar amara ghar na dushman che" - Farmans of Mowlana Aga Ali Shah)
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19811

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:

Still Bol is not practiced in Central Asians Ismailis because they are not bestowed Bol by Imam.
No doubt advice of Zikr is present in ginans. Did Pir Sadardin gave Bol to his followers?
We know that Bol has not been bestowed by the Imam to the Jamats in CA. The question is why?

There is no evidence that Pir gave Bol to his followers in the Ginans.
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FreeLancer



Joined: 13 Feb 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:

Still Bol is not practiced in Central Asians Ismailis because they are not bestowed Bol by Imam.
No doubt advice of Zikr is present in ginans. Did Pir Sadardin gave Bol to his followers?
We know that Bol has not been bestowed by the Imam to the Jamats in CA. The question is why?

There is no evidence that Pir gave Bol to his followers in the Ginans.


When Pir did not gave Bol to his followers then what they recited in Zikr. Obviously that should be from attribute names of Allah. The core question is that at time of Pir there did not existed BK majlis. Even the name baitul khayal is not available in ginans as it is. Same way in central Asians jamaits so far there is no trace of BK majlis but still they do Zikr traditionally as there forefathers did.
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FreeLancer



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:

With wrong pronunciation meaning changes. For example; Murtadha and Murtada, walad dhaleen and waladalin, Shai'in and shayan, ya zaljalal and ya juljalal and Ya Aliyul ajeem and so on.


God looks at the intention and never at the pronunciation this is why there are no Farmans on the pronunciation of the Dua but there are on the meaning.

Arab say D and Persian pronounce Z and Indian say J why make a fuss about pronunciation which may disturb some races but certainly does not disturb God.

Even amongst Arabs there are regional variance: Egyptians pronounce Gamal and other pronounce Jamal

And when Hazar Imam speaks of his ancestor Hazrat Ali (not Hadrat Ali) do you think he knows the name of his ancestor better than you do? Are you going to say that our pronunciation should be that of Arab Mullas or Persian Mullas? of Egyptian Mullas or of Iraki Mullas??

And when Hazar Imam speaks of his ancestor Hazrat Ali (not Hadrat Ali) do you think he knows the name of his ancestor better than you do?

"Arbi Arbi karnar amara ghar na dushman che" - Farmans of Mowlana Aga Ali Shah)



Hazar Imam in his farmans has stressed to LEARN DU'A. It means jamaits have to say correct Du'a. If I say learn Khojki, obviously one has to learn properly its pronunciation and grammar.
My other point is when jamaits migrated to USA or Canada they promptly learnt English with proper pronunciation and accent, same with French in Quebec. 50 years passed still 90+% jamaits of subcontinent are unable to pronounce Du'a correctly. In Jk what is the use of such Du'a in which reciter makes 50/60 mistakes, which change meaning of words.

It is not a question of dh, z, or j, the common sense is learn the correct language. When our people from subcontinent sing properly MOVIE SONGS why not to recite proper Du'a.

It is not the question of Arabi, Persian, or Afghan mullahs but we have also Ismaili mullahs can pronounce Du'a correctly.

When Imam speaks of Mowla Ali, his speech is in English and not in Arabic. He will not pronounce HAJRAT ALI.

We are living in era of Shah Karim, he can supersede previous Imam's Farman. Present Imam's Hidayat is to learn Arabic and Quran.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:

When Pir did not gave Bol to his followers then what they recited in Zikr. Obviously that should be from attribute names of Allah. The core question is that at time of Pir there did not existed BK majlis. Even the name baitul khayal is not available in ginans as it is. Same way in central Asians jamaits so far there is no trace of BK majlis but still they do Zikr traditionally as there forefathers did.
I am in agreement with whatever you are saying, that before the modern period both the khoja and the non-khoja Ismailis did not have Bol. My question remains: why in the modern period the Imam decided to give khojas Bol and not to non-khojas?
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Admin



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:


When Imam speaks of Mowla Ali, his speech is in English and not in Arabic. He will not pronounce HAJRAT ALI.

We are living in era of Shah Karim, he can supersede previous Imam's Farman. Present Imam's Hidayat is to learn Arabic and Quran.


You are completely mistaken, there are instances where Mowlana Hajar Imam Shah Karim has pronounced Niyaj instead of Niaz so your whole theory is now kaput.

Return now to the title of the thread please.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:
Even the name baitul khayal is not available in ginans as it is. Same way in central Asians jamaits so far there is no trace of BK majlis but still they do Zikr traditionally as there forefathers did.


This is only a question of vocabulary.

Zikr karo ilahi

The distinction between Zikr and Bandgi is clear in Ginans and the concept of Bandgi and bol is there in Ginan in Indian languages, there is ajampiya jamp and there is sat chabd. It is just a matter of informing oneself.
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FreeLancer



Joined: 13 Feb 2018
Posts: 182

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:


When Imam speaks of Mowla Ali, his speech is in English and not in Arabic. He will not pronounce HAJRAT ALI.

We are living in era of Shah Karim, he can supersede previous Imam's Farman. Present Imam's Hidayat is to learn Arabic and Quran.


You are completely mistaken, there are instances where Mowlana Hajar Imam Shah Karim has pronounced Niyaj instead of Niaz so your whole theory is now kaput.

Return now to the title of the thread please.


Please quote the Farman in which Imam used the word Niyaj instead of Niaz. Mention country, date, and year. If not your statement will be kaput.
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FreeLancer



Joined: 13 Feb 2018
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:
Even the name baitul khayal is not available in ginans as it is. Same way in central Asians jamaits so far there is no trace of BK majlis but still they do Zikr traditionally as there forefathers did.


This is only a question of vocabulary.

Zikr karo ilahi

The distinction between Zikr and Bandgi is clear in Ginans and the concept of Bandgi and bol is there in Ginan in Indian languages, there is ajampiya jamp and there is sat chabd. It is just a matter of informing oneself.


Neither the word Bol or Boley Nath is used in Ginans. Ajampiya Jaa(n)mp is a saas usaas way of bandagi in Yoga with particula aasan. All attribute names of Allah are Sat shabad.
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FreeLancer



Joined: 13 Feb 2018
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:

When Pir did not gave Bol to his followers then what they recited in Zikr. Obviously that should be from attribute names of Allah. The core question is that at time of Pir there did not existed BK majlis. Even the name baitul khayal is not available in ginans as it is. Same way in central Asians jamaits so far there is no trace of BK majlis but still they do Zikr traditionally as there forefathers did.
I am in agreement with whatever you are saying, that before the modern period both the khoja and the non-khoja Ismailis did not have Bol. My question remains: why in the modern period the Imam decided to give khojas Bol and not to non-khojas?



Joined: 13 Feb 2018
Posts: 53

PostPosted: 27 Feb 2018 05:18 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:

So far we do not have any example where Imam has bestowed Bol to particularly Afghan, Tajik, Uzbec, Kazik, Chinese jamaits (non khojas). Recently Imam approved BK for Hunza, Gilgit, Baltistan, and Chitrali Jamaits from Nawroz 2018. I wander if Imam will revisit these areas again to personally bestow Bol to these jamaits.
So the Jamats in Hunza, Gilgit and Baltistan will do BUK without BOL at least initially until the Imam decides to bestow BOL.

Kmaherali wrote:
So my initial question which you did not answer is: Why do you think that the Imam gave BOL to the khojas and not to others?

Let me reproduce the answer of your question:

First we have to investigate in Which Imam's time BK and Bol started. For sure this particular majlis started in sub continent may be in time of 46th Imam. Historically ibadat gatherings started from time of Prophet Muhammad by reciting attribute names of Allah starting mid night as mentioned in surah Muzzamil. In sub continent the ibadat time, in beginning was from mid night.
Now according to your question, why specially Bol was granted to khoja/mominas only excluding jamaits of other geographical areas. In my opinion Zikr ibadat was not practiced at that time in khoja/momina communities while it was practiced in other Ismail areas, or in first place it was a training course as khojas/mominas were not pronouncing proper Arabic names or attribute names, for example calling Ya Azim as Ajeem, Zul Jalal as Jul Jalal, ( recently on internet the names of Indian Ismailis poped up as Ramjan instead of Ramzan, Ashiq Ali as Asik Ali and so on), or it could have been to strengthen their iman, or it was already practiced in Central Asian and Arab jamiats, therefore it was started in sub continent followers for spiritual progress. Wallah a'alim.

Other reason in my opinion is;
BK majlis started 150 years back by 46th imam was to stream line bandagi for khojas with with non khojas as zikr practice was continued in non khoja communities but very few in subcontinent were practicing bandagi by calling names Hari Hari or harey Krishna as mentioned in ginans for example;
HAR (HARI) BUJH GAAFIL BANDEY CHALANA HI SANSAAR
Imam changed the wordings with YA ALLAH, YA MUHAMMAD, YA ALI as in par with other non khoja jamaits were practicing.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:

BK majlis started 150 years back by 46th imam was to stream line bandagi for khojas with with non khojas as zikr practice was continued in non khoja communities but very few in subcontinent were practicing bandagi by calling names Hari Hari or harey Krishna as mentioned in ginans for example;
HAR (HARI) BUJH GAAFIL BANDEY CHALANA HI SANSAAR
Imam changed the wordings with YA ALLAH, YA MUHAMMAD, YA ALI as in par with other non khoja jamaits were practicing.
Calling Ali or Hari does not change the substance of what is called. It is absurd to say that khojas were not practicing zikr because they were using Indian names as opposed to Arabic names.
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FreeLancer



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:

BK majlis started 150 years back by 46th imam was to stream line bandagi for khojas with with non khojas as zikr practice was continued in non khoja communities but very few in subcontinent were practicing bandagi by calling names Hari Hari or harey Krishna as mentioned in ginans for example;
HAR (HARI) BUJH GAAFIL BANDEY CHALANA HI SANSAAR
Imam changed the wordings with YA ALLAH, YA MUHAMMAD, YA ALI as in par with other non khoja jamaits were practicing.
Calling Ali or Hari does not change the substance of what is called. It is absurd to say that khojas were not practicing zikr because they were using Indian names as opposed to Arabic names.


It is strange Pir Sadardin himself recited names of Allah, Muhammad, and Ali but asked poor converts to recite Hari, Brahma, Ram,Krishna. I did not mentioned that earlier khojas were not practicing zikr, what I wrote is some were practicing by calling name of Hari. Pir Saheb should have taught and trained them from beginning to recite Islamic names. These Hindu versions continued till Imamat of Shah Hasan Ali Shah who introduced the Islamic attribute names of Allah for zikr.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:
Pir Saheb should have taught and trained them from beginning to recite Islamic names. These Hindu versions continued till Imamat of Shah Hasan Ali Shah who introduced the Islamic attribute names of Allah for zikr.
Are you saying that only those who can recite names in Arabic can attain God. Even the youths of today will laugh at such a suggestion! God is not confined to a particular tradition or language.
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FreeLancer



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:
Pir Saheb should have taught and trained them from beginning to recite Islamic names. These Hindu versions continued till Imamat of Shah Hasan Ali Shah who introduced the Islamic attribute names of Allah for zikr.
Are you saying that only those who can recite names in Arabic can attain God. Even the youths of today will laugh at such a suggestion! God is not confined to a particular tradition or language.


Ismailis have to follow Hidayat of Hazar Imam. Does Imam ever gave Bol names as Hari, Krishna. I don't think he did in his past 60 years of Imamat.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:

Ismailis have to follow Hidayat of Hazar Imam. Does Imam ever gave Bol names as Hari, Krishna. I don't think he did in his past 60 years of Imamat.
Yes of course we have to follow the Hidayat. There is no Farman in which the Imam has told us to only remember names in Arabic.

Of course whatever Bol is given, we must recite that.
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FreeLancer



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:

Ismailis have to follow Hidayat of Hazar Imam. Does Imam ever gave Bol names as Hari, Krishna. I don't think he did in his past 60 years of Imamat.
Yes of course we have to follow the Hidayat. There is no Farman in which the Imam has told us to only remember names in Arabic.

Of course whatever Bol is given, we must recite that.



My argument is Imam NEVER gave Bol like Om, Hari or Krishna in his 60 years tenure of Imamat. Allah's attribute names are happen to be in Arabic which Imam bestow on Bol finders.
Let me ask you a question, did Imam mentioned in his recent India visit names like Bhagwan, Hari, Krishna,Om? He asked jamaits to recite names of Allah, Muhammad, and Ali.
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tret



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
My question remains: why in the modern period the Imam decided to give khojas Bol and not to non-khojas?


Why don't you tell Freeancer why? Is it because you think khoja jama'at is privileged? lol..

Kidding aside. I think you need to read Farameen of Baitul khayal, and understand the meaning and purpose and conditions of baitul khayal properly.

i.e. Imam has repeatedly reminds that taking bol (Ism-i-A'zam) isn't compulsory. It is murids' choice to take it. I am sure you must have known this.

But, I still wonder and amazed by your question above.

Didar is granted by Imam's wish.
Ism-i-A'zam is at the request of the murid/jama'at. Imam doesn't impose Ism-i-A'zam (aka bol) upon murids.

So, instead of feeling privileged, try and understand it properly, is good for everyone.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:

So, instead of feeling privileged, try and understand it properly, is good for everyone.
Nice to hear from you again! It seems you have not read the whole thread, otherwise you would have known my opinion on that. It is certainly not about privilege as you are suggesting, but on the contrary it is the opposite.
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ShamsB



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:
kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:

Ismailis have to follow Hidayat of Hazar Imam. Does Imam ever gave Bol names as Hari, Krishna. I don't think he did in his past 60 years of Imamat.
Yes of course we have to follow the Hidayat. There is no Farman in which the Imam has told us to only remember names in Arabic.

Of course whatever Bol is given, we must recite that.



My argument is Imam NEVER gave Bol like Om, Hari or Krishna in his 60 years tenure of Imamat. Allah's attribute names are happen to be in Arabic which Imam bestow on Bol finders.
Let me ask you a question, did Imam mentioned in his recent India visit names like Bhagwan, Hari, Krishna,Om? He asked jamaits to recite names of Allah, Muhammad, and Ali.


How do you know? Have you been present at all Bol ceremonies?
The fact that I am asking you this question - should be an answer to your assertion that the Imam only gives Bol in Arabic without going into a lot of details.

Bol can be any word that the Imam chooses. Why are you setting rules on the Imam? Islam is a universal faith - not bound by a single culture or language.

Shams
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:

My argument is Imam NEVER gave Bol like Om, Hari or Krishna in his 60 years tenure of Imamat. Allah's attribute names are happen to be in Arabic which Imam bestow on Bol finders.
Let me ask you a question, did Imam mentioned in his recent India visit names like Bhagwan, Hari, Krishna,Om? He asked jamaits to recite names of Allah, Muhammad, and Ali.
I can understand that the Imam wants us to have a Muslim identity and hence use Muslim names and prayers. But it is wrong to say that remembering God by any other names is ineffective.
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FreeLancer



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:

My argument is Imam NEVER gave Bol like Om, Hari or Krishna in his 60 years tenure of Imamat. Allah's attribute names are happen to be in Arabic which Imam bestow on Bol finders.
Let me ask you a question, did Imam mentioned in his recent India visit names like Bhagwan, Hari, Krishna,Om? He asked jamaits to recite names of Allah, Muhammad, and Ali.
I can understand that the Imam wants us to have a Muslim identity and hence use Muslim names and prayers. But it is wrong to say that remembering God by any other names is ineffective.


Prophet said; ANA MADINATUL ILM WA ALIYUN BABUHA. If any one want entry into Madinatul Ilm (baitul khayal), he has to seek permission at gate. Knock, knock, Ali will ask what is pass word which was granted by me (bol). Easy entry in house of WISDOM will be granted to those who remembered bol. Others are entitled too, but after hardships and struggle they will also be accepted and granted entry into madinatul Ilm by Ali. Ali is for all.
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FreeLancer



Joined: 13 Feb 2018
Posts: 182

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:
kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:

Ismailis have to follow Hidayat of Hazar Imam. Does Imam ever gave Bol names as Hari, Krishna. I don't think he did in his past 60 years of Imamat.
Yes of course we have to follow the Hidayat. There is no Farman in which the Imam has told us to only remember names in Arabic.

Of course whatever Bol is given, we must recite that.



My argument is Imam NEVER gave Bol like Om, Hari or Krishna in his 60 years tenure of Imamat. Allah's attribute names are happen to be in Arabic which Imam bestow on Bol finders.
Let me ask you a question, did Imam mentioned in his recent India visit names like Bhagwan, Hari, Krishna,Om? He asked jamaits to recite names of Allah, Muhammad, and Ali.


How do you know? Have you been present at all Bol ceremonies?
The fact that I am asking you this question - should be an answer to your assertion that the Imam only gives Bol in Arabic without going into a lot of details.

Bol can be any word that the Imam chooses. Why are you setting rules on the Imam? Islam is a universal faith - not bound by a single culture or language.

Shams


Some one told me you were a missionary may be still active.
Your question, how I come to know, is not a difficult question for me. I have discussed BOL subject with many missionaries, even they were kind enough to provide me BK Farmans with restrictions. It is on that information I wrote Imam grants BOL from the Attribute names of Allah. Past many years Imam is asking murids to recite names of Allah, Muhammad, and Ali. He NEVER said to recite names of Om, Hari, Krishna.
Shams Saheb in 5th part of Du'a what you recite 'Ya Ali Ya Muhammad' or Har e Krishna- Har e Rama.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:
ShamsB wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:
kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:

Ismailis have to follow Hidayat of Hazar Imam. Does Imam ever gave Bol names as Hari, Krishna. I don't think he did in his past 60 years of Imamat.
Yes of course we have to follow the Hidayat. There is no Farman in which the Imam has told us to only remember names in Arabic.

Of course whatever Bol is given, we must recite that.



My argument is Imam NEVER gave Bol like Om, Hari or Krishna in his 60 years tenure of Imamat. Allah's attribute names are happen to be in Arabic which Imam bestow on Bol finders.
Let me ask you a question, did Imam mentioned in his recent India visit names like Bhagwan, Hari, Krishna,Om? He asked jamaits to recite names of Allah, Muhammad, and Ali.


How do you know? Have you been present at all Bol ceremonies?
The fact that I am asking you this question - should be an answer to your assertion that the Imam only gives Bol in Arabic without going into a lot of details.

Bol can be any word that the Imam chooses. Why are you setting rules on the Imam? Islam is a universal faith - not bound by a single culture or language.

Shams


Some one told me you were a missionary may be still active.
Your question, how I come to know, is not a difficult question for me. I have discussed BOL subject with many missionaries, even they were kind enough to provide me BK Farmans with restrictions. It is on that information I wrote Imam grants BOL from the Attribute names of Allah. Past many years Imam is asking murids to recite names of Allah, Muhammad, and Ali. He NEVER said to recite names of Om, Hari, Krishna.
Shams Saheb in 5th part of Du'a what you recite 'Ya Ali Ya Muhammad' or Har e Krishna- Har e Rama.


Once again - Have you been present at all the Bol ceremonies conducted by Hazar Imam?
You like quoting ginans - i'll quote one...paraphrasing
..Azazil Firashta Bujo bhai...
chattris karod kitaba pariya..par bhitar bhed na janiya...

I think i've made my point.

Faith doesn't require proof. If the Imam were to say he spoke all languages, you would ask him to prove it to you. When you realize that the Imam can give any word - any word to be that link - and it could be Om or Hare Krishna - you will then decry him as not an Imam - because he doesn't stick to Arabic. I am surprised that you haven't called him out not being an Imam - because he doesn't wear what Imams are supposed to wear.

Another ginan I will quote in closing...

Ek fikar munivar tamaari chhe amne
maannas rupe saaheb jaanno ho bhaai ji

I am assuming i don't need to translate.

One cannot even begin to fathom the depths of who or what the Imam truly is. Or what faith truly is - or love ..which is what bandagi actually is...and in love - there is no boundaries of religion or language.

Shams
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19811

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:

Prophet said; ANA MADINATUL ILM WA ALIYUN BABUHA. If any one want entry into Madinatul Ilm (baitul khayal), he has to seek permission at gate. Knock, knock, Ali will ask what is pass word which was granted by me (bol). Easy entry in house of WISDOM will be granted to those who remembered bol. Others are entitled too, but after hardships and struggle they will also be accepted and granted entry into madinatul Ilm by Ali. Ali is for all.
Now you are suggesting that khojas were chosen to be given Bol and hence achieve an easier salvation and the non-khojas are condemned to hardship.

This is non-sense. Bol is not the only means of salvation. There are other practices which are equally effective.

MHI has also acknowledged in his BUK Farmans that there are other Sufi tariqahs who are also engaged in this quest for Light. Remember Rumi and Hafiz were not murids of the Imam.
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FreeLancer



Joined: 13 Feb 2018
Posts: 182

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:

Prophet said; ANA MADINATUL ILM WA ALIYUN BABUHA. If any one want entry into Madinatul Ilm (baitul khayal), he has to seek permission at gate. Knock, knock, Ali will ask what is pass word which was granted by me (bol). Easy entry in house of WISDOM will be granted to those who remembered bol. Others are entitled too, but after hardships and struggle they will also be accepted and granted entry into madinatul Ilm by Ali. Ali is for all.
Now you are suggesting that khojas were chosen to be given Bol and hence achieve an easier salvation and the non-khojas are condemned to hardship.

This is non-sense. Bol is not the only means of salvation. There are other practices which are equally effective.

MHI has also acknowledged in his BUK Farmans that there are other Sufi tariqahs who are also engaged in this quest for Light. Remember Rumi and Hafiz were not murids of the Imam.



When you write "non sense" means you are aggravated. Let me reproduce my previous post;

PostPosted: 22 Feb 2018 04:34 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for understanding, Bol is like an elevator (lift) which in a minute help a person to reach top floor (destination) of Burj Al Khalifa. Where as other means is like using stairs to reach top floor.

With a Bol or Ism e Azam given by Murshid e Kamil is more effective and helps adept to succeed in his/her spiritual mission. Without Murshid e Kamil and Bol, it is difficult for a salik to advance in bandagi leaps and bound. Without Murshid it is difficult and time consuming.
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