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Vicegerent of Allah?
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kanada



Joined: 17 May 2013
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAM, I have been reading various posts and came across this. I would like to comment.

1st. It is becoming rather difficult to understand Ginan since the new generation are becoming lesser and lesser bilinguist.

2nd. We know that Ginan was a medium to convey Islamic message to strict Hindu based community. At that time, the community were unable to grasp any foreign religious knowledge in a RAW format unless it was channeled to them in the mode they were in. Hence, Ginan was the medium. Therefore, there are various concept that was used in Ginan that Islam doesn't accept. One of that is Reincarnation or Rebirth.

agakhani wrote:
(shri brahma ) --- incarnation of "the nabi,"


I find this quote hard to swallow since Reincarnation and Rebirth is NOT an Islamic concept. The reason this theology fails is that Allah's best of creation, which is Ashraful Maklukaat, cannot be reincarnated into animals, which is lowest form of His Creation. This is a HINDU concept. In Islam, this concept does not exist.

One should not mistake the teaching of Ginan, which was the medium to educate mass Hindus. Yes, there are several batini concepts that are so important but literal sense of rebirth and reincartion is not Islamic and was only mentioned to educate our ancestors who were literal Hindus.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reincarnation and rebirth is a concept accepted in many Tariquas of Islam and by many Muslim. Islam is not a monolithic block where every Muslim believe in the same thing, it is not a religion of clones. The individuality of the believer is respected and it is said that only Allah can judge. The pluralism of interpretation of the Quran is accepted, as the Imam said, there are thousands of interpretation of the Quran. Diversity is strenght.

It would be a very sad day when everyone would be beliving the same thing and everyone would be making the same mistake.

Variety of opinion is what allows one to correct his understanding when he is wrong. Ismailism is an intellectual religion and not only are we allowed to think but we are required to think. In some firqas of Islam, the very basic freedom to think has been removed from the believer. That is what causes despair and extremism....
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 498

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ALLAH mentioned in Quran that this is not our first life...

so wat is our previous life?? the answer is that our previous lifes is in different living organisms...

you mentioned that humans are "ashraf ul makhlukaat" so how they reincarnated in lowest form i.e (animals,fishes,birds,becteria) from ur this statement u said indirectly that ALLAH do not do equality wid his creation..

so ALLAH never do this discrimination b/w there creation.all creation of ALLAH
cross thy cycle of rebirth(according to ginan 84 lakhs cycle).

NOTE:

we are not HUMAN(ashraf ul makhlukaat)
we are HUMAN being

HUMAN BEING=we are in thy process of becoming human...
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kanada



Joined: 17 May 2013
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ismaili103 wrote:
ALLAH mentioned in Quran that this is not our first life...

Please quote the verse!!

ismaili103 wrote:
so wat is our previous life?? the answer is that our previous lifes is in different living organisms..

Where are you getting these ideas? Please reference where in the Qur'an does Allah says that we were microscopic species or different living organism!!

Sorry, it is this type of conversations that I don't really like to have. Try to have an intellectual conversation with references so that if there is something really to gain knowledge, it would be worthwhile.
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no reference of this ayat but i listen this ayat in a waez of late abu ali missionary and for this i don't need any reference..

brother kanada! why you only need reference frm Quran did you not beleive in Ginans. I read ur coment that you said these hindu terminologies used to convert hindu extremist into ismailism. but how u saud that these hindu terminologies are just nonsense (not real) did u have any source or reference to proof that......
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a_27826



Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 321
Location: Da es salaam

PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ismaili103 wrote:
I have no reference of this ayat but i listen this ayat in a waez of late abu ali missionary and for this i don't need any reference..

brother kanada! why you only need reference frm Quran did you not beleive in Ginans. I read ur coment that you said these hindu terminologies used to convert hindu extremist into ismailism. but how u saud that these hindu terminologies are just nonsense (not real) did u have any source or reference to proof that......


surely Abu Ali must have quoted the chapter and verse number or maybe you forgot the verse number.

Muslims who claim reincarnation usually use

002:028 How do you disbelieve in God, seeing you were dead and He gave you life, then He shall make you dead, then He shall give you life, then unto Him you shall be returned?

The expression “seeing you were dead” can mean before you were dead, you had a life.
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kanada



Joined: 17 May 2013
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a_27826 wrote:
002:028 How do you disbelieve in God, seeing you were dead and He gave you life, then He shall make you dead, then He shall give you life, then unto Him you shall be returned

Thank you brother a_27826 for the verse.

This verse doesn't deal with reincarnation. This verse deals with:

1. Seeing you were dead and He gave you life - means we were in a state of no life (state of nothing) and Allah gave us life.
2. then He shall make you dead - means we will taste dead and Allah says in 3:185 "Every soul shall have a taste of death".
3. then He shall give you life - means He will resurrect us again.

ismaili103 wrote:
why you only need reference frm Quran did you not beleive in Ginans

Brother Ismaili03, I believe in Qur'an and Ginan. But let me clarify my belief. Qur'an is the word of Allah and it is final. Ginan is not the word of Allah. It is a teaching of Pir. There is a difference from one and the other.

ismaili103 wrote:
I read ur coment that you said these hindu terminologies used to convert hindu extremist into ismailism.

I never said "hindu extremist". I said that Ginan was medium to educate mass Hindus as community was unable to grasp any foreign religious knowledge in a RAW format unless it was channeled to them in the mode they were in.

ismaili103 wrote:
but how u saud that these hindu terminologies are just nonsense

Again, I never said that. Please read again. What I am trying to articulate is that the language used to introduce Islam was in the mode of Hindu concept and that is what Pir did so successfully, for example Ginan uses terms like Avataar, which is a Hindu concept, not Islamic. That is how our Khoja ancestors were converted from Hindu to Ismaili.

admin wrote:
Reincarnation and rebirth is a concept accepted in many Tariquas of Islam and by many Muslim.

I don't want to be disrespectful to brother Admin who has read several books and is very knowledgeable but I have to disagree with him on this ground.

Islam is not a new religion. If you ask any Muslim and he will agree with me that Islam was the religion when Prophet Adam was created. Allah says in 3:67 "Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was a Muslim, and bowed his will to Allah (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah. Allah has send many messengers to guide mankind and keep Allah's Commandment and Covenant. Allah says 2:83 "And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): Worship none but God; treat with kindness your parents and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in prayer; and practise regular charity. Then did ye turn back, except a few among you, and ye backslide (even now)." The same covenant He ask through Prophet Isa. Again Allah is asking to keep his commandment and covenant in this famous verse "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." Mathew 10:5. Again Allah command to keep his commandment and covenant through Prophet Muhammad in the Qur'an.

The message of Allah through several scriptures and to the People of the Book is to keep his commandment and covenant. The concept of reincarnation doesn't exist in Semitic religion (i.e. Judaism, Christianity and Islam).
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If semitic religions were the only ones to which God has sent His messenger, God would be very limited indeed.

But again to make a statement that Semitic religions do not believe in Reincarnation is the statement of a person that has not read much about the semitic religion...


Admin
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kanada



Joined: 17 May 2013
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
If semitic religions were the only ones to which God has sent His messenger, God would be very limited indeed.

Yes, I agree but I did not say that Allah has not sent messages to other communities. Allah has mentioned in the Qur'an “For we assuredly sent amongst every people a Messenger" 16:36. My focus in my statement was Semitic religions as I am not crossing path to Aryan faith, i.e. Hinduism and Buddhism.

Admin wrote:
But again to make a statement that Semitic religions do not believe in Reincarnation is the statement of a person that has not read much about the semitic religion...

Yes, I would be interested in knowing if Judaism and Christianity also accepts reincarnation. Please share the titles of materials that you have read. I have several Jewish and Christian acquaintances and none has agree to your viewpoint of reincarnation in Judaism and Christianity, leave aside Islam, for I know that many Muslims will disagree with you also. I'm not debating with you but I am against the dual concept of a "Yes" and a "No" at the same time. It is either a "Yes" or a "No". Allah will not confuse his Creation with dual concept. My faith is very clear in that. Those who are trying to implement both concepts are merely introducing confusion. They are themselves lost!!!


Last edited by kanada on Sat May 25, 2013 9:08 am, edited 2 times in total
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 1257

PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jalaluddin Rumi (1207-1273), was a great Islamic and Sufi poet. Sufis are considered the esoteric holders of Islamic wisdom, much as the Kabbalists are regarded as holders of the hidden wisdom of Judaism. Rumi wrote:

"Like grass I have grown over and over again. I passed out of mineral form and lived as a plant. From plant I was lifted up to be an animal. Then I put away the animal form and took on a human shape. Why should I fear that if I died I shall be lost? For passing human form I shall attain the flowing locks and shining wings of angels. And then I shall become what no mind has ever conceived. O let me cease to exist! For non-existence only means that I shall return to Him."

The process of reincarnation allegedly continues until the soul reaches its full maturity and perfection when it joins its source - God or the "Universal Soul"

They will say:" Our Lord! twice hast Thou made us without life, and twice hast Thou given us Life! Now have we recognized our sins: is there any way out (of this)?" [40:11]
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kanada



Joined: 17 May 2013
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shiraz.virani wrote:
"Like grass I have grown over and over again. I passed out of mineral form and lived as a plant. From plant I was lifted up to be an animal. Then I put away the animal form and took on a human shape. Why should I fear that if I died I shall be lost? For passing human form I shall attain the flowing locks and shining wings of angels. And then I shall become what no mind has ever conceived. O let me cease to exist! For non-existence only means that I shall return to Him."

Brother Shiraz, please quote me the reference where you pull this text from. Thank you.
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Brother Shiraz, please quote me the reference where you pull this text from. Thank you.


Jeffrey Mishlove, Roots of Consciousness, Council Oak Books, Tulsa, Oklahoma, 1993, p. 191
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kanada



Joined: 17 May 2013
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shiraz.virani wrote:
Jeffrey Mishlove, Roots of Consciousness, Council Oak Books, Tulsa, Oklahoma, 1993, p. 191

Thank you for your quote. I will get back to on that. Let me first address your Qur'anic quote "They will say:" Our Lord! twice hast Thou made us without life, and twice hast Thou given us Life! Now have we recognized our sins: is there any way out (of this)?" [40:11]

Brother Shiraz, you are not reading the context of this Ayat. You need to read Ayats 10, 11 & 12 to understand the context. In Ayat 10, Allah addresses the unbelievers. Ayat 11 deals with a response from the unbelievers. Ayat 12 is Allah's counter-response to the unbelievers' response. Your Ayat 11 is a response from unbelievers, "They (the unbelievers) will say...". Why is the unbelievers saying has a reference to another Ayat, which is 2:28, which is "How do you disbelieve in Allah, seeing you were dead and He gave you life, then He shall make you dead, then He shall give you life, then unto Him you shall be returned".

This verse doesn't deal with reincarnation. This verse deals with:

1. Seeing you were dead and He gave you life - means we were in a state of no life (state of nothing) and Allah gave us life.
2. then He shall make you dead - means we will taste dead and Allah says in 3:185 "Every soul shall have a taste of death".
3. then He shall give you life - means He will resurrect us again.

So what does 40:11 explains:

"They will say:" Our Lord! twice hast Thou made us without life, and twice hast Thou given us Life! Now have we recognized our sins: is there any way out (of this)?" [40:11]

1. "Twice hast Thou made us without life" refers to the state we were without life twice, one before life on earth and second on death.
2. " and twice hast Thou given us Life" refers to state we were with life twice, one during our life on earth and the other life on resurrection. This is directly in correlation to 2:28.

Surah 40:11 has nothing to do with reincarnation.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to forget that the present version of the Quran does not represent at all the sequence of verses sent by Allah to the Holy Prophet [PBUH] which can completely change the interepretation of the whole compilation, a compilation which the Prophet [PBUH] never did not revised not approved nor wanted nor was told to live as a written reference for the future.
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brother kanada, u said AVATAR is the hindu concept not islamic...

I make u clear muslim does'nt accept the concept of avatar but islam accepts it..
AVATAR is the sanskrit word which means "manifestation"
there is an Attribute of ALLAH "zahir" which means the "manifest one"

the point of difference is just a language difference

in sanskrit its AVATAR means the manifest one
in arabic its MAZHAR means the manifest one
in urdu its ZAHIR means the manifest one

the concept of AVATAR is none other then the concept of IMAMAT.
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1st of I thank you and congratulate you for reading the verses from the holy quran...Not many ismaili's do that because for them ginans are sufficient

Now coming back to the topic .....Is there reincarnation in islam...well according to me YES !!!

"And you were dead, and He brought you back to life. And He shall cause you to die, and shall bring you back to life, and in the end shall gather you unto Himself." (2:2icon_cool.gif.

The words "you were dead" can only mean that they had lived before becoming dead.

Remember what our 48th imam said :

Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence - in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God.

It is upto allah[swt] and he can just say "BE" and it is...when he can create infinite universes and destroys it again, what makes you think he cannot or will not reincarnate US ???
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Admin



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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no doubt that a soul can come back to earth.

Many people have been found to remember their past life, all this is documented enough, it is just a matter of doing some research into the subject. The example of Shanti devi, a little girl of 6 years who remembered giving birth in her past life, who took the researcher to her still existing family and showed were to dig to find her jewelery she had hidden in her past life...
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a_27826



Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 321
Location: Da es salaam

PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shiraz.virani wrote:
Now coming back to the topic .....Is there reincarnation in islam...well according to me YES !!!

"And you were dead, and He brought you back to life. And He shall cause you to die, and shall bring you back to life, and in the end shall gather you unto Himself." (2:2icon_cool.gif.

The words "you were dead" can only mean that they had lived before becoming dead.



so how do you explain this verse ?

023:099-100: Till, when death comes to one of them, he says, 'My Lord, return me; haply I shall do righteousness in that I forsook.' Nay, it is but a word he speaks; and there; behind them, is a barrier until the day that they shall be raised up.

Do you think they contradicting each other ?
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a_27826



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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a_27826 wrote:
shiraz.virani wrote:
Now coming back to the topic .....Is there reincarnation in islam...well according to me YES !!!

"And you were dead, and He brought you back to life. And He shall cause you to die, and shall bring you back to life, and in the end shall gather you unto Himself." (2:2icon_cool.gif.

The words "you were dead" can only mean that they had lived before becoming dead.



so how do you explain this verse ?

023:099-100: Till, when death comes to one of them, he says, 'My Lord, return me; haply I shall do righteousness in that I forsook.' Nay, it is but a word he speaks; and there; behind them, is a barrier until the day that they shall be raised up.

Do you think they contradicting each other ?



or is it possible in the verse

002:028 How do you disbelieve in God, seeing you were dead and He gave you life, then He shall make you dead, then He shall give you life, then unto Him you shall be returned?

The expressions may mean this.

Any thoughts/comments ?

points 1-4 are based from point 5

1. “seeing you were dead” = we were alive and died in the Allah’s Kingdom

2. “and He gave you life” = made alive in this world

3. “then He shall make you dead” = we will die in this world

4. “then He shall give you life” = made alive in the Allah’s Kingdom

5. “then unto Him you shall be returned” = we will return (back to) to Allah’s Kingdom
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 1257

PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
or is it possible in the verse

002:028 How do you disbelieve in God, seeing you were dead and He gave you life, then He shall make you dead, then He shall give you life, then unto Him you shall be returned?

The expressions may mean this.

Any thoughts/comments ?

points 1-4 are based from point 5

1. “seeing you were dead” = we were alive and died in the Allah’s Kingdom

2. “and He gave you life” = made alive in this world

3. “then He shall make you dead” = we will die in this world

4. “then He shall give you life” = made alive in the Allah’s Kingdom

5. “then unto Him you shall be returned” = we will return (back to) to Allah’s Kingdom


Yes, your interpretation is valid too...Well I think thats the beauty of quran e paak...But if I may ask you onething brother " Do you believe a soul can or will die ?? " ...As far as I know, soul is eternal and I believe that you'll agree with me on this. So if soul is eternal, how can it die ??

The death mentioned in quran [espically in that verse] got to be physical death and not spiritual...This is just my opinion

what do you think ??
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a_27826



Joined: 03 Jan 2010
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Location: Da es salaam

PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shiraz.virani wrote:
Quote:
or is it possible in the verse

002:028 How do you disbelieve in God, seeing you were dead and He gave you life, then He shall make you dead, then He shall give you life, then unto Him you shall be returned?

The expressions may mean this.

Any thoughts/comments ?

points 1-4 are based from point 5

1. “seeing you were dead” = we were alive and died in the Allah’s Kingdom

2. “and He gave you life” = made alive in this world

3. “then He shall make you dead” = we will die in this world

4. “then He shall give you life” = made alive in the Allah’s Kingdom

5. “then unto Him you shall be returned” = we will return (back to) to Allah’s Kingdom


Yes, your interpretation is valid too...Well I think thats the beauty of quran e paak...But if I may ask you onething brother " Do you believe a soul can or will die ?? " ...As far as I know, soul is eternal and I believe that you'll agree with me on this. So if soul is eternal, how can it die ??

The death mentioned in quran [espically in that verse] got to be physical death and not spiritual...This is just my opinion

what do you think ??



true. I completely forgot about soul being eternal.

And many times Hazar Imam has reminded us about soul being eternal.

But Quran tells us that every soul will taste death.

003:185 Every soul shall taste of death; you shall surely be paid in full your wages on the Day of Resurrection. Whosoever is removed from the Fire and admitted to Paradise, shall win the triumph. The present life is but the joy of delusion.

021:035 Every soul shall taste of death; and We try you with evil and good for a testing, then unto Us you shall be returned.

029:057 Every soul shall taste of death; then unto Us you shall be returned.

Quran also tells us in Paradise, the souls wont taste death except the first death on this world.

044:056 They shall not taste therein of death, save the first death, And He shall guard them against the chastisement of Hell –

So back to 002:028 How do you disbelieve in God, seeing you were dead and He gave you life, then He shall make you dead, then He shall give you life, then unto Him you shall be returned?

Why does 002:028 talk about two deaths and and 044:056 about one death ?
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Admin



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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is good that Ismailis have the "Bolta" Quran as said Hazrat Ali at the battle of Siffin. When we see so many Muslim completely on the wrong path with no clue of all these concepts shown to us by our Eternal Imam. What a refreshing thought!
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zznoor



Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
it is good that Ismailis have the "Bolta" Quran as said Hazrat Ali at the battle of Siffin. When we see so many Muslim completely on the wrong path with no clue of all these concepts shown to us by our Eternal Imam. What a refreshing thought!


Brother
You have your true guide and Bolta Quran

Why fret and worry about ignorant "ola Musalman"?

Let Allah judge them if they are on wrong path.

It is duty of every Muslim to guide fellow Muslims to correct path.

You and your MHI should send missionaries to correct them and bring them to true Islam that is Ismailism.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are not after quantity, only after honesty, quality, conviction.

Or Imam was asked when he became Imam if he wanted to increase the number of followers in his community, he said absolutely not. That says it all.

Better 1 follower who understand why he follows Ismailism than a thousands who are not convinced.
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shiraz.virani



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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
true. I completely forgot about soul being eternal.

And many times Hazar Imam has reminded us about soul being eternal.

But Quran tells us that every soul will taste death.

003:185 Every soul shall taste of death; you shall surely be paid in full your wages on the Day of Resurrection. Whosoever is removed from the Fire and admitted to Paradise, shall win the triumph. The present life is but the joy of delusion.

021:035 Every soul shall taste of death; and We try you with evil and good for a testing, then unto Us you shall be returned.

029:057 Every soul shall taste of death; then unto Us you shall be returned.

Quran also tells us in Paradise, the souls wont taste death except the first death on this world.

044:056 They shall not taste therein of death, save the first death, And He shall guard them against the chastisement of Hell –

So back to 002:028 How do you disbelieve in God, seeing you were dead and He gave you life, then He shall make you dead, then He shall give you life, then unto Him you shall be returned?

Why does 002:028 talk about two deaths and and 044:056 about one death ?


If you ask me brother I think every soul will taste death when it leaves physical robe[body] or when the person dies !!!...Taste of death doesn't really mean death of a soul but instead material death of a person where our soul will and have to leave its physical shape.

Now if you read the surah 2:28 again with the explanation I have provided then it makes a perfect sense brother.

What do you think am I right in saying that ??
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shiraz.virani



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zznoor, I'm not a huge fan of hadiths...but since you are, I would like you to interpret this following hadith in your own words.

Sahih Muslim Book 32...H number 6325

Chapter : It is forbidden to strike at the face.

This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Abu Huraira and in the hadith transmitted on the authority of Ibn Hatim Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) is reported to have said: When any one of you fights with his brother, he should avoid his face for Allah created Adam in His own image

Please note that I'm not pointing any gun at you nor Im supporting Ali Allah theory here. I just wanna know your point of view @ this Sahih Hadith.
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arlenebatada



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shiraz.virani wrote:

Maherali bhai im confused now !!!!......H.Adam[as] was a prophet[as] and not a Imam....H rasool[saw] was a prophet[as] and not a Imam.....Sri Krishna and Sri Ram were prophets and Imams ???

How it is that some prophets[as] can also be imam's[as] of their time where as few prophets[as] aren't ???

All these years I used to think that rasool[saw] was shah/pir during his time i.e until the day he proclaimed H.Imam Ali[as] as the imam[as] icon_question.gif

Not all prophets are Imams. Hazarat Isa was not an Imam. Hazarat Musa was not an Imam.

The Imams can assume any role or function in this world. Sometimes they are little known and sometimes they are widely known. Sometimes they can assume the role of a prophet as well.

Our 48th Imam made the following Farman:

"When Nabi Mohammed Mustafa departed from this world he appointed Pir Imam Hasan as his successor to carry on the work. Similarly, Murtaza Ali appointed Imam Husayn as the Imam after him." (Gujrati Farman book 'Kutchh na Farman' pages 8-9.)

It is quite clear from the above Farman that the Prophet was a Pir who appointed Hazarat Hasan to carry out this role.


I agree that all Prophets are not Imams. However I disagree that Hazrat Musa (a.s.) and Hazrat Isa (a.s.) were not Imams. A Messenger of Allah (swt), before becoming a Messenger is an Imam.

Da'i Ahmed b. Ibrahim al-Naysaaburi writes:

"..the messenger arrives first at the rank of the imamate. Then, if the times require the establishment of a [new] religious law,..the imam occupies the place of the messenger in his age and time. The messenger before arising to declare the religious law, is one of the imams having assumed command from a previous imam. After finalizing the religious law, he hands over the command to the [next] imam. The imam is [therefore] present in the world at all times; the world is never deprived of him."
(Kitab ithbat al-imama/degrees of excellence)

By this definition, Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.s) was the Imam before Imam 'Ali (a.s). Only then can he say "Do I not have more right on the believers than they've over themselves?" To which the people replied "Yes, O Rasulullah", after which he said- "Of whosoever I'm Mawla (i.e. the one who has right over you), 'Ali is his Mawla".

Moreover, the role of Pir and Imam are interchangeable at times (not always). The forthcoming Imam can become a Pir of the current Imam. Hazrat Hasan (a.s.) was a Pir after the demise of Rasululullah (s.a.a.s) and a trustee Imam after the demise of Imam 'Ali (a.s.).

Imam 'ala dhikrihi al-salam (a.s.) addresses Hazrat Hasan (a.s.) as Imam and explains the types of offspiring of an Imam as follows:

"It must be known that the offspring of the Imam are of four kinds. One is his physical offspring, like Must'ali; one is his spiritual offspring, like Salman; one is his offspring both physically and spiritually, like Imam Hasan (a.s.), who is called the trustee Imam (imam-i mustawda ); and one is his offspring physically, spiritually and in reality, all three, like Mawlana Husayn (a.s.), who is called the permanently established Imam (imam-i mus-taqarr)."

-Imam Hasan 'ala dhikrihi al-salam (a.s.)
(Epistle on the Recognition of the Imam)

Pir Nasir Khusraw (r.a.) addresses Hazrat Hasan (a.s.) as Imam and explains the difference between Mustaqarr (hereditery) Imam and Mustawda (trustee) Imam as follows:

"Now we have to explain the difference between the real hereditary Imam, mustaqarr, and the trustee Imam, mustawda. The difference between them exists only in so far as the question of inheritance is concerned, as in the case of Imam Hasan (a.s.) and Imam Husayn (a.s.). The trustee Imam, mustawda, is a son of the Imam ... who also knows all the mysteries of imamate, and so long as he discharges his duty he is the greatest of all people of his time. But he is not endowed with the privilege of transmitting his imamate to his descendants, who can never become Imams, only Sayyids. The hereditary Imam, mustaqarr, is endowed with all the privileges of imamate, and transmits them to his successors"

-Pir Nasir Khusraw (r.a.)
(Kalam-i Pir)

Mostly, the need for this provision is so that the Mustaqarr (hereditery) Imam can be protected by Mustawda (trustee) Imam.

One more example is of Imam Mu'minShah (a.s.), who is known as Pir Shihab al-Din Shah (r.a.).

Imam Mu'minShah (a.s.)'s name appears as Imam of that time in Khojki manuscript script number 22 in the Harvard University collection which contains a register of the Imams transcribed during the imamate of Imam Khalil lillahi 'Ali (a.s.). It includes Mu'minshah's name between Imam Shams al-Din Muhammad (a.s.) and Imam Qasimshah (a.s.). However, manuscript number 19 of the same collection, which contains a register that apparently dates to immediately after the death of the Imam Aga 'Alishah (a.s.), omits his name.
(The Isma'ilis in Middle Ages by Dr. Shafique N. Virani)
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19279

PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arlenebatada wrote:

I agree that all Prophets are not Imams. However I disagree that Hazrat Musa (a.s.) and Hazrat Isa (a.s.) were not Imams. A Messenger of Allah (swt), before becoming a Messenger is an Imam.)
The complete genealogy of the Imam is given in our Old Dua which we recited for centuries and was sanctioned by the Imams. There is no mention of the Prophets as being Imams. In fact the Prophets names have not been mentioned at all except for Prophet Muhammad because he was the Pir.

You are mixing up all the concepts of Imam that have developed in our history. The leaders of various categories such as the ones who lead the prayer, the ones who lead the Madhhabs, the ones who lead communities are all considered as Imams.

But the Imam in the technical sense as understood in our Tariqah as the Mustaqarr Imam is unique and there can only be one Imam at a given time.
arlenebatada wrote:

By this definition, Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.s) was the Imam before Imam 'Ali (a.s). Only then can he say "Do I not have more right on the believers than they've over themselves?" To which the people replied "Yes, O Rasulullah", after which he said- "Of whosoever I'm Mawla (i.e. the one who has right over you), 'Ali is his Mawla".)
There are two aspects of history. There is the zaher which is the role of the Prophet with respect to the Umma and there is the role within the Jamat. In conext of the Zaher the Prophet functioned in the role of the Messenger for Mankind, but within the Jamat he was the Pir as per MSMS's Farman.

From the zaher the Imams are the legatees but from the batin they are Supreme. Tusi in the Paradise of Submission explains this apparent role as:

[§402] Every Prophet - peace be upon all of them - has had a legatee (wasi) in whom the light of the Imamate has been firmly set and established with surety, and to whom the knowledge of prophecy has been temporarily entrusted through trusteeship (istida'). The reason for this legacy is that during the period of each Prophet, the truthful Imams - may salutations ensue upon mention of them - perceived it to be in the best interests of the people to manifest themselves as legatees of that Prophet. Adam's wasl was Seth (Shith), who has been called the son of Adam. The vestiges of knowledge in which Adam was instructed by God and the illumination of those words, by means of which Adam's repentance was accepted [by God], were exclusively his. From the time of Adam that legacy has continued in the progeny of Seth, 'offspring, one of another (3: 34), and will continue to the end of the life of the world.

[§410] The conservation of religious prescriptions of the Prophets was committed into the hands of the real Imams (imdmdn-i mustaqarr)
- may salutations ensue upon mention of them. However, because of the benefits they saw therein, and the divine wisdom they understood therein, they have sometimes effected this conservation through their own sacred selves, and have at other times entrusted it to their vicegerents and other people. Had they always effected this conservation themselves, the spirituality of these religious laws would have always remained firm and all the disagreements [there have been] would never have occurred. But since God has made these disagreements a cause for concord, as Muhammad - peace be upon him and his progeny - has said, 'Differences amongst my community are a mercy,'142 they have done whatever they deemed advisable for mankind at that time, and in like manner they have made the continuance of these rules an obligation.

[§411] The true Imams - may salutations ensue upon mention of them - have sometimes been called the 'son of Adam' or the 'son of Noah' or the 'son of Abraham'. They have maintained this on account of the benefits and relations they have seen to be proper. But in reality, they were neither of the lineage of these Prophets, nor of the progeny of philosophers, nor of the offspring of kings, nor of any other lineage except their own blessed and sacred one.
arlenebatada wrote:

Moreover, the role of Pir and Imam are interchangeable at times (not always). The forthcoming Imam can become a Pir of the current Imam. Hazrat Hasan (a.s.) was a Pir after the demise of Rasululullah (s.a.a.s) and a trustee Imam after the demise of Imam 'Ali (a.s.).)
Can you explain in what sense was the trustee Imam different than Piratan in the case of Hazarat Hasan?
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