www.ismaili.net

shivaathervedi wrote:Karim I do not follow your intelligence. I do not want hanky panky..

You had accused me of creating a wrong deduction and I asked you to provide your deduction, which you haven't. If my intelligence is hankypanky, please provide your deduction based on your intelligence of the Farman.

If you read the whole Farman, there were 3 questions asked by the Imam and the Imam was happy that there were spiritual children who knew the answers. Hence what the murid replied about the Imam being Malikinaas is correct.

shivaathervedi wrote: I asked you in clear wordings, please quote the the farman in which according to you he claimed to be RUBBIN NAAS, ILAHIN NAAS, MALIKIN NAAS IN CLEAR WORDINGS. Your statement is BLASPHEMOUS AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LOGIC AND THERE COULD BE REPERCUSSIONS.

It would be Blasphemous from an exoteric point of view but it is not from an esoteric point of view. The meaning I derived is for the Jamat and not for others. I will remind you of the difference between an esoteric and and exoteric faith with reference to the Farman below.

Printed Farman on Spiritual Life.

It is important that in learning parts of the Qur'an, you must clearly understand the meaning...I hope that you will not forget that the meaning is the foundation of our concept of Islam, because our concept is esoteric. If it were exoteric, then it would not matter. But it is not exoteric, it is esoteric, which means the meaning is for our Jamat; it is for our Tariqah and this is the foundation. So do not forget this. (Bombay, 22 November, 1967)

Our faith is not of rote but of intellect. If you do not have the intellect to interpret the Farman based on the Qur'an you do not belong to our Tariqah.

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote:Karim I do not follow your intelligence. I do not want hanky panky..

You had accused me of creating a wrong deduction and I asked you to provide your deduction, which you haven't. If my intelligence is hankypanky, please provide your deduction based on your intelligence of the Farman.

If you read the whole Farman, there were 3 questions asked by the Imam and the Imam was happy that there were spiritual children who knew the answers. Hence what the murid replied about the Imam being Malikinaas is correct.

shivaathervedi wrote: I asked you in clear wordings, please quote the the farman in which according to you he claimed to be RUBBIN NAAS, ILAHIN NAAS, MALIKIN NAAS IN CLEAR WORDINGS. Your statement is BLASPHEMOUS AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LOGIC AND THERE COULD BE REPERCUSSIONS.

It would be Blasphemous from an exoteric point of view but it is not from an esoteric point of view. The meaning I derived is for the Jamat and not for others. I will remind you of the difference between an esoteric and and exoteric faith with reference to the Farman below.

Printed Farman on Spiritual Life.

It is important that in learning parts of the Qur'an, you must clearly understand the meaning...I hope that you will not forget that the meaning is the foundation of our concept of Islam, because our concept is esoteric. If it were exoteric, then it would not matter. But it is not exoteric, it is esoteric, which means the meaning is for our Jamat; it is for our Tariqah and this is the foundation. So do not forget this. (Bombay, 22 November, 1967)

Our faith is not of rote but of intellect. If you do not have the intellect to interpret the Farman based on the Qur'an you do not belong to our Tariqah.

Our Tariqa is not derived from deductions and inductions. It is a simple and easy Tariqa which is made difficult by old missionaries and so called Ismaili intellectuals. In second part of Du'a it is clearly mentioned OBEY ALLAH, OBEY RASUL, AND ULIL AMR WHICH IS IMAM OF THE TIME. THESE ARE 3 ENTITIES MENTIONED IN DU'A. In SAJADAH, we say, ALLAHUMA LAKA SUJUDI WA TA'ATI.
Some persons take the farmans for granted, out of context and twist the translations or meaning according to their thinking, that's why Imam banned institutions, groups, and individuals to publish farmans because they are sending wrong interpretations and signals to other Muslim communities.
Quran is compiled in book form and not in parts. The farman of Imam was taken out of context. Imam referred to parts which were recited or Imam asked questions about the parts of recitation and he encouraged the students and teachers to learn Quran and its meaning, even today ( in my opinion ) 70% of Ismails khojas don't know meaning of Du'a.
You wrote," I would be BLASPHEMOUS from an exoteric point of view...". That what I am trying to explain. KEEP YOUR BATIN IN YOUR BATIN, "DHANDHORA PITTNEY KI ZARURAT NAHI. Already Ismailis in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and in Arab countries are dubbed heretics and kafirs.
You and your like minded families are settled in safe haven of USA or Canada, it may not hurt you people but definitely the Ismailiis living in hostile countries. NOW YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHY IMAM MADE CHANGES.

Admin wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote: Once again cover page and back page covering farman in Khojki of the old Du'a booklet is e - mailed to you on your heritage address ie, heritage@ismaili.net
Both times it was confirmed that e mail sent successfully.

I have just received from your account as per time, it is written today 2:59pm just for your info.

There is nowhere to be seen in the documents you have sent that Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah may have said anything about the translation of Aliyullah.

Here is the document received, couple of pages in Khojki from the Dua Book.

Those who read Khojki can confirm what I am saying.



http://ismaili.net/timeline/1950/dua-kh ... -cover.pdf

Translation of farman from Khojki in English;

THIS DU'A I HAVE CORRECTED ( SUDHRI AAHEY ) WITH MY HANDS. THIS IS ACCORDING TO PRESENT CHANGING TIMES ( MOUJUDAH ZAMANEY JEY MUTABIQ ). THIS DU'A IS FOR ALL PAKISTAN, HINDUSTAN ( BHARAT ) AND AFRICAN JAMAITS.
MOULANA SULTAN MUHAMMAD SHAH: FEB 18,1950.

Note: In that old Du'a of 1950 ALIYULLAH is used 11 times and again in 1956 when MSMS changed the Du'a in Arabic ALIYULLA is used once in second part of Du'a.

Why do you beat around the bush. There is nowhere in this Farman that Aliyullah means Ali is from Allah. Stop misrepersenting always.

shivaathervedi wrote:Our Tariqa is not derived from deductions and inductions. It is a simple and easy Tariqa which is made difficult by old missionaries and so called Ismaili intellectuals. In second part of Du'a it is clearly mentioned OBEY ALLAH, OBEY RASUL, AND ULIL AMR WHICH IS IMAM OF THE TIME. THESE ARE 3 ENTITIES MENTIONED IN DU'A. In SAJADAH, we say, ALLAHUMA LAKA SUJUDI WA TA'ATI..

So now you are denying the role of intellect in understanding of our faith. This is contrary to many Farmans of the Imam. One of them being:

"And let me today remind you also of some of the principles of interpretation which Hazrat Ali brought to our interpretation of Islam. One of the essential principles that he brought, was that Islam is not a faith only of rote, it is a faith of the intellect, it is a faith of individual search, it is a faith of commitment to others in society. In this intellectual search, Hazrat Ali did not divide faith and intellect Hazrat Ali said that intellect is another facet of faith. And it is upon us, upon you, to use your intellect within the ethic of our faith in whatever time and whatever place you live. Therefore, you have no division between intellect and faith. Thc use of intellect is the proper behavior in society at any given time." (Moscow, 1995)

Esoteric or mystical matters are never easy, otherwise everyone would be an Ismaili.

In his ITV interview MHI was asked:
ITV: One of the myths surrounding you is that some people in the West think of you as a living God. Not only is that not true, it is also blasphemous.

To which MHI replied:

AK: Absolutely. I mean as you know the faith of Islam was revealed at a time when the Arabian continent was idolatrous and idolatry, all forms of idolatry, are totally prohibited by Islam. It is certainly true to say that the Western world doesn’t necessarily understand the theology of Shi’ism nor indeed the theology of many mystical sects whether they are Shia or Sunni or Christian. Mysticism, in its, in its essence is difficult.

Hence from the above statement, while MHI acknowledged that idolaratory is blasphemous, he also said that mysticism is not easy in its essence, it is difficult.

In one of his Farmans the Imam indicated the difficulty of understanding esoteric and exoteric terms:

"I would like in the years ahead to feel that if I ask you, it may be difficult for you in the English language, but if I ask you what is the difference between Esoteric faith and Exoteric faith, you should be able to tell Me. These are difficult matters, but the better and the deeper your knowledge of your faith, the better and the deeper your understanding of our faith, the stronger you will be and the stronger our Jamat will be."(Bombay, Nov (, 1967)

In any case I am not being Nafarmani by saying Imam is Malikinaas and hence Illahinaas and Rabanaas. I am applying my intellect as per his Moscow Farman

shivaathervedi wrote: Quran is compiled in book form and not in parts. The farman of Imam was taken out of context. Imam referred to parts which were recited or Imam asked questions about the parts of recitation and he encouraged the students and teachers to learn Quran and its meaning, even today ( in my opinion ) 70% of Ismails khojas don't know meaning of Du'a.
You wrote," I would be BLASPHEMOUS from an exoteric point of view...". That what I am trying to explain. KEEP YOUR BATIN IN YOUR BATIN, "DHANDHORA PITTNEY KI ZARURAT NAHI. Already Ismailis in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and in Arab countries are dubbed heretics and kafirs.
You and your like minded families are settled in safe haven of USA or Canada, it may not hurt you people but definitely the Ismailiis living in hostile countries. NOW YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHY IMAM MADE CHANGES.

The Imam has always told us to study parts of the Quran in all his Farmans. This Forum discusses the Batini aspects of our faith. It is a batini forum and therefore it is appropriate to discuss such matters here.

If it was not due to batini aspects of our faith, this forum would not exist!

Can you elaborate on what changes the Imam made?

Admin wrote:Why do you beat around the bush. There is nowhere in this Farman that Aliyullah means Ali is from Allah. Stop misrepersenting always.

I am not beating around the bush but you are twisting the statement. When first I mentioned the farman you jumped in that this is a fake farman and when I gave you proof you are saying, oh where is the meaning Ali is from Allah. I wanted to show the readers that changes in Kalimah was made in 1950 which is a proof in the farman which I quoted, even Kmaherali admitted that change came in 40's. The farman which I picked from Du'a booklet has kalimah e Shahadh at end of Du'a which read ALIYYUN AMIRULMU'MINEEN ALIYULLAH. Translation of ALIYULLAH mentioned in Du'a books bY ITREB is " ALI IS FROM ALLAH". THIS TRANSLATION IS NOT FROM MYSELF BUT BY THE CONSTITUTIONAL AND RECOGNIZED INSTITUTION OF HAZAR IMAM. From myself I quoted the farman of 1964 in which Hazar Imam said ALI IS FROM ALLAH. The meaning by ITREB and farman of Imam is synchronized. If you think I am wrong have some courage and ask ITREB Karachi for verification or write to AIGLEMONT.

shivaathervedi wrote:Translation of ALIYULLAH mentioned in Du'a books bY ITREB is " ALI IS FROM ALLAH". THIS TRANSLATION IS NOT FROM MYSELF BUT BY THE CONSTITUTIONAL AND RECOGNIZED INSTITUTION OF HAZAR IMAM. From myself I quoted the farman of 1964 in which Hazar Imam said ALI IS FROM ALLAH.

You keep quoting non existing Farmans and the farman you quoted and sent us as proof, which I have made available for all to see, does not validate your claim.

Now you say it is ITREB interpretation and ITREB is appointed by Imam. what kind of twisted logic do you have. Are you suggesting that if ITREB member interpret anything wrong , it is as if Hazar Imam has interpreted wrong?

No farman says that Ali is from Allah. Please stop this lie now! You have been proven wrong by the very document that you send and which we made available.

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote:Our Tariqa is not derived from deductions and inductions. It is a simple and easy Tariqa which is made difficult by old missionaries and so called Ismaili intellectuals. In second part of Du'a it is clearly mentioned OBEY ALLAH, OBEY RASUL, AND ULIL AMR WHICH IS IMAM OF THE TIME. THESE ARE 3 ENTITIES MENTIONED IN DU'A. In SAJADAH, we say, ALLAHUMA LAKA SUJUDI WA TA'ATI..

So now you are denying the role of intellect in understanding of our faith. This is contrary to many Farmans of the Imam. One of them being:

"And let me today remind you also of some of the principles of interpretation which Hazrat Ali brought to our interpretation of Islam. One of the essential principles that he brought, was that Islam is not a faith only of rote, it is a faith of the intellect, it is a faith of individual search, it is a faith of commitment to others in society. In this intellectual search, Hazrat Ali did not divide faith and intellect Hazrat Ali said that intellect is another facet of faith. And it is upon us, upon you, to use your intellect within the ethic of our faith in whatever time and whatever place you live. Therefore, you have no division between intellect and faith. Thc use of intellect is the proper behavior in society at any given time." (Moscow, 1995)

Esoteric or mystical matters are never easy, otherwise everyone would be an Ismaili.

In his ITV interview MHI was asked:
ITV: One of the myths surrounding you is that some people in the West think of you as a living God. Not only is that not true, it is also blasphemous.

To which MHI replied:

AK: Absolutely. I mean as you know the faith of Islam was revealed at a time when the Arabian continent was idolatrous and idolatry, all forms of idolatry, are totally prohibited by Islam. It is certainly true to say that the Western world doesn’t necessarily understand the theology of Shi’ism nor indeed the theology of many mystical sects whether they are Shia or Sunni or Christian. Mysticism, in its, in its essence is difficult.

Hence from the above statement, while MHI acknowledged that idolaratory is blasphemous, he also said that mysticism is not easy in its essence, it is difficult.

In one of his Farmans the Imam indicated the difficulty of understanding esoteric and exoteric terms:

"I would like in the years ahead to feel that if I ask you, it may be difficult for you in the English language, but if I ask you what is the difference between Esoteric faith and Exoteric faith, you should be able to tell Me. These are difficult matters, but the better and the deeper your knowledge of your faith, the better and the deeper your understanding of our faith, the stronger you will be and the stronger our Jamat will be."(Bombay, Nov (, 1967)

In any case I am not being Nafarmani by saying Imam is Malikinaas and hence Illahinaas and Rabanaas. I am applying my intellect as per his Moscow Farman

shivaathervedi wrote: Quran is compiled in book form and not in parts. The farman of Imam was taken out of context. Imam referred to parts which were recited or Imam asked questions about the parts of recitation and he encouraged the students and teachers to learn Quran and its meaning, even today ( in my opinion ) 70% of Ismails khojas don't know meaning of Du'a.
You wrote," I would be BLASPHEMOUS from an exoteric point of view...". That what I am trying to explain. KEEP YOUR BATIN IN YOUR BATIN, "DHANDHORA PITTNEY KI ZARURAT NAHI. Already Ismailis in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and in Arab countries are dubbed heretics and kafirs.
You and your like minded families are settled in safe haven of USA or Canada, it may not hurt you people but definitely the Ismailiis living in hostile countries. NOW YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHY IMAM MADE CHANGES.

The Imam has always told us to study parts of the Quran in all his Farmans. This Forum discusses the Batini aspects of our faith. It is a batini forum and therefore it is appropriate to discuss such matters here.

If it was not due to batini aspects of our faith, this forum would not exist!

Can you elaborate on what changes the Imam made?

MSMS said in farman that during 70 years of Imamat he changed the farmans 70 times. Since 1960 Shah Karim Imam e Zaman has given different Hidayat in religious affairs. MSMS said," In every time Imam has something new to reveal".
Regarding this forum, look at the name 'Ismaili Heritage', it is not mentioned Batini Ismaili Heritage or Khoja Satpunthi Heritage, therefore all aspects of Ismaili tariqa should be discussed here. OR ask your friend Admins of which you are apart to change the name of this site as BATINI ISMAILI TARIQA.
Past 1400 years the Quran is same and respected by our all Imams from Mowla Ali to Shah Karim. Some missing parts is a Shia tradition and for that MSMS said "te amara ghar ma chhey". Your concept of parts of Quran is totally wrong as I explained in my previous post. Imam was talking about the surahs and ayats which were in religious school curriculum which Imam referred as parts of quran in curriculum to learn and understand.
I am not against role of intellect in faith, but who has right to interpret and show the correct intellect. In our community The religious or spiritual IQ varies, 'har koi apni boli boley ga' I am correct others are wrong. Therefore in our Tariqa only Imam has this right. I am against INDUCTIONS AND DEDUCTION type of things. For example; one can say by looking at a kitten that this is lion, when asked how, the reply was I deduced it. Or one can say actually water is wine because both are liquids, when asked how reply was oh, I deduced it.
Regarding your ITV reference when MHI was asked," in west you are considered as a living God, NOT ONLY IS THAT TRUE, BUT IT IS BLASPHEMOUS.
MHI replied ABSOLUTELY. ( after absolutely there is full stop means sentence is complete). The Imam started about explaining Shi'ism and mysticism.
Yes it is nafarmani and blasphemous statement that Imam is Rubbin Naas /Ilahin Naas/Malikin Naas.

Ali is not Allah

Ali is above Allah

shivaathervedi wrote:

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote:Our Tariqa is not derived from deductions and inductions. It is a simple and easy Tariqa which is made difficult by old missionaries and so called Ismaili intellectuals. In second part of Du'a it is clearly mentioned OBEY ALLAH, OBEY RASUL, AND ULIL AMR WHICH IS IMAM OF THE TIME. THESE ARE 3 ENTITIES MENTIONED IN DU'A. In SAJADAH, we say, ALLAHUMA LAKA SUJUDI WA TA'ATI..

So now you are denying the role of intellect in understanding of our faith. This is contrary to many Farmans of the Imam. One of them being:

"And let me today remind you also of some of the principles of interpretation which Hazrat Ali brought to our interpretation of Islam. One of the essential principles that he brought, was that Islam is not a faith only of rote, it is a faith of the intellect, it is a faith of individual search, it is a faith of commitment to others in society. In this intellectual search, Hazrat Ali did not divide faith and intellect Hazrat Ali said that intellect is another facet of faith. And it is upon us, upon you, to use your intellect within the ethic of our faith in whatever time and whatever place you live. Therefore, you have no division between intellect and faith. Thc use of intellect is the proper behavior in society at any given time." (Moscow, 1995)

Esoteric or mystical matters are never easy, otherwise everyone would be an Ismaili.

In his ITV interview MHI was asked:
ITV: One of the myths surrounding you is that some people in the West think of you as a living God. Not only is that not true, it is also blasphemous.

To which MHI replied:

AK: Absolutely. I mean as you know the faith of Islam was revealed at a time when the Arabian continent was idolatrous and idolatry, all forms of idolatry, are totally prohibited by Islam. It is certainly true to say that the Western world doesn’t necessarily understand the theology of Shi’ism nor indeed the theology of many mystical sects whether they are Shia or Sunni or Christian. Mysticism, in its, in its essence is difficult.

Hence from the above statement, while MHI acknowledged that idolaratory is blasphemous, he also said that mysticism is not easy in its essence, it is difficult.

In one of his Farmans the Imam indicated the difficulty of understanding esoteric and exoteric terms:

"I would like in the years ahead to feel that if I ask you, it may be difficult for you in the English language, but if I ask you what is the difference between Esoteric faith and Exoteric faith, you should be able to tell Me. These are difficult matters, but the better and the deeper your knowledge of your faith, the better and the deeper your understanding of our faith, the stronger you will be and the stronger our Jamat will be."(Bombay, Nov (, 1967)

In any case I am not being Nafarmani by saying Imam is Malikinaas and hence Illahinaas and Rabanaas. I am applying my intellect as per his Moscow Farman

shivaathervedi wrote: Quran is compiled in book form and not in parts. The farman of Imam was taken out of context. Imam referred to parts which were recited or Imam asked questions about the parts of recitation and he encouraged the students and teachers to learn Quran and its meaning, even today ( in my opinion ) 70% of Ismails khojas don't know meaning of Du'a.
You wrote," I would be BLASPHEMOUS from an exoteric point of view...". That what I am trying to explain. KEEP YOUR BATIN IN YOUR BATIN, "DHANDHORA PITTNEY KI ZARURAT NAHI. Already Ismailis in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and in Arab countries are dubbed heretics and kafirs.
You and your like minded families are settled in safe haven of USA or Canada, it may not hurt you people but definitely the Ismailiis living in hostile countries. NOW YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHY IMAM MADE CHANGES.

The Imam has always told us to study parts of the Quran in all his Farmans. This Forum discusses the Batini aspects of our faith. It is a batini forum and therefore it is appropriate to discuss such matters here.

If it was not due to batini aspects of our faith, this forum would not exist!

Can you elaborate on what changes the Imam made?

MSMS said in farman that during 70 years of Imamat he changed the farmans 70 times. Since 1960 Shah Karim Imam e Zaman has given different Hidayat in religious affairs. MSMS said," In every time Imam has something new to reveal".
Regarding this forum, look at the name 'Ismaili Heritage', it is not mentioned Batini Ismaili Heritage or Khoja Satpunthi Heritage, therefore all aspects of Ismaili tariqa should be discussed here. OR ask your friend Admins of which you are apart to change the name of this site as BATINI ISMAILI TARIQA.
Past 1400 years the Quran is same and respected by our all Imams from Mowla Ali to Shah Karim. Some missing parts is a Shia tradition and for that MSMS said "te amara ghar ma chhey". Your concept of parts of Quran is totally wrong as I explained in my previous post. Imam was talking about the surahs and ayats which were in religious school curriculum which Imam referred as parts of quran in curriculum to learn and understand.
I am not against role of intellect in faith, but who has right to interpret and show the correct intellect. In our community The religious or spiritual IQ varies, 'har koi apni boli boley ga' I am correct others are wrong. Therefore in our Tariqa only Imam has this right. I am against INDUCTIONS AND DEDUCTION type of things. For example; one can say by looking at a kitten that this is lion, when asked how, the reply was I deduced it. Or one can say actually water is wine because both are liquids, when asked how reply was oh, I deduced it.
Regarding your ITV reference when MHI was asked," in west you are considered as a living God, NOT ONLY IS THAT TRUE, BUT IT IS BLASPHEMOUS.
MHI replied ABSOLUTELY. ( after absolutely there is full stop means sentence is complete). The Imam started about explaining Shi'ism and mysticism.
Yes it is nafarmani and blasphemous statement that Imam is Rubbin Naas /Ilahin Naas/Malikin Naas.

Imam himself in the farman has agreed to Imam being Malik-i-nass..

So who are you to determine who He is or isn't?

And please go watch the interview - i've told you in a number of threads to pay close attention to what Hazar Imam is saying.

What is He saying Absolutely too?

Also the question was phrased incorrectly - the interviewer talked about A LIVING GOD - there isn't A living god - meaning plural - but ONE GOD....
and living implies that GOD DIES.


Shams

I think we can all agree that Imam speaks and explains to people according to their level of understanding.

For example Imam may tell one person Islam exist since pre-eternity and tell some other since 1400 years to still to others as 1900 years. He will talk according to his audience in the same way a university teacher will not explain to kinder-garden children the same way he would to educated adult student writing his PhD thesis.

So lets us close this unending and repetitive debate here. Thanks you.

shivaathervedi wrote: MSMS said in farman that during 70 years of Imamat he changed the farmans 70 times. Since 1960 Shah Karim Imam e Zaman has given different Hidayat in religious affairs. MSMS said," In every time Imam has something new to reveal"..

I was asking for what changes have been made in our Tariqah which you were alluding to. I am aware that the Farmans will change according to time.

In his Oct 1988 Farman in Dar es Salaam he said that the essence of our faith will not change.

In his Silver Jubilee Farman in Nairobi he said:

"I began My Farman by saying that in the past twenty five years, much has changed, but much has remained the same. What has remained the same is our understanding of Islam. What has remained is the practice of our Tariqah, what has remained is abiding by our traditions and I want to underline the importance of this to you today on this occasion, because there are parts of the world with people believing in other faiths who find it difficult to reconcile the interpretation of their faith and the modern world."(Oct 5th 1982)

shivaathervedi wrote: Regarding this forum, look at the name 'Ismaili Heritage', it is not mentioned Batini Ismaili Heritage or Khoja Satpunthi Heritage, therefore all aspects of Ismaili tariqa should be discussed here. OR ask your friend Admins of which you are apart to change the name of this site as BATINI ISMAILI TARIQA..

No need to do that. Ismaili Tariqah by definition is batini. It is an esoteric tradition. The Preamble mentions terms such as the bond between a murid and the Imam, tawil, talim, bayah. These are all related to an esoteric batini tradition.

shivaathervedi wrote: Your concept of parts of Quran is totally wrong as I explained in my previous post. Imam was talking about the surahs and ayats which were in religious school curriculum which Imam referred as parts of quran in curriculum to learn and understand..

It is not my concept but 'to study parts of the Quran' is mentioned by the Imam in ALL his Farmans.

shivaathervedi wrote: I am not against role of intellect in faith, but who has right to interpret and show the correct intellect. In our community The religious or spiritual IQ varies, 'har koi apni boli boley ga' I am correct others are wrong. Therefore in our Tariqa only Imam has this right. I am against INDUCTIONS AND DEDUCTION type of things. For example; one can say by looking at a kitten that this is lion, when asked how, the reply was I deduced it. Or one can say actually water is wine because both are liquids, when asked how reply was oh, I deduced it..

There are common accepted rules of logic which are shared by everyone. In our case, we know that the Imam said that he is Malikinaas. We know that the Quran says that Malikinaas, Rabbanaas and Illahinaas refers to Allah to whom we seek refuge. Therefore if the Imam is Malikinaas then it implies that he he also Rabbanaas and Illahinaas. This is according to commonly accepted rules of logic.

There is no way of deducing that a kitten is a lion. It is not accepted by anyone!

If I have been wrong in my deduction please explain the mistake.

shivaathervedi wrote: Regarding your ITV reference when MHI was asked," in west you are considered as a living God, NOT ONLY IS THAT TRUE, BUT IT IS BLASPHEMOUS.
MHI replied ABSOLUTELY. ( after absolutely there is full stop means sentence is complete). The Imam started about explaining Shi'ism and mysticism..

After saying that it a blasphemy, it was not the end but he went on to explain the difficulties of mysticism. It is not an easy path as you said.

shivaathervedi wrote: Yes it is nafarmani and blasphemous statement that Imam is Rubbin Naas /Ilahin Naas/Malikin Naas.

Explain why it is Nafarmani. When you accuse someone of Nafarmani you have to explain why. When I said you were being Na farmani, I said so because you were not using your intellect in understanding of our faith.

Admin wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote:Translation of ALIYULLAH mentioned in Du'a books bY ITREB is " ALI IS FROM ALLAH". THIS TRANSLATION IS NOT FROM MYSELF BUT BY THE CONSTITUTIONAL AND RECOGNIZED INSTITUTION OF HAZAR IMAM. From myself I quoted the farman of 1964 in which Hazar Imam said ALI IS FROM ALLAH.

You keep quoting non existing Farmans and the farman you quoted and sent us as proof, which I have made available for all to see, does not validate your claim.

Now you say it is ITREB interpretation and ITREB is appointed by Imam. what kind of twisted logic do you have. Are you suggesting that if ITREB member interpret anything wrong , it is as if Hazar Imam has interpreted wrong?

No farman says that Ali is from Allah. Please stop this lie now! You have been proven wrong by the very document that you send and which we made available.

ITREB is an institution established by Imam and Hidayat is conveyed through them. Are you an authority in religious affairs or ITREB is?
Translation of ALIYULLAH that Ali is from Allah is done by them whether it is Pak ITREB, India ITREB, USA ITREB, or Canada ITREB. I have no business with any ITREB and I am not involved in translation, I am just pointing out that till to day the meaning of ALIYULLAH exists in Du'a meaning books. If this is wrong why not you bunch of people REVOLT. The same meaning exists on your Ismaili Heritage site and it is there for many years, why you not woke up at that time.(now you might edit or delete it as you have been doing with my informative posts). Your star contributor Kmaherali has quoted same meaning, it is other story he is backing off; and this meaning is available in all Du'a meaning books I am just pointing out.
In JKs when once or twice a year meaning of complete Du'a is explained to jamaits, there always meaning of ALIYULLAH is conveyed as ALI IS FROM ALLAH. I have heard it.
I suggested you before and am suggesting again, e-mail the farman of 1964 which was provided to you in which Imam said ALIYULLAH means ALI IS FROM ALLAH, send that farman to ITREB KARACHI and verify it. That won't cost you a dime.
Or, e-mail complete copy of farman to COORDINATOR ITREBs at Aiglemont and verify from him.
Or you have 'YARANA' with LIF and HIGH COMMAND LEADERS ask them for clearification about the meaning of ALIYULLAH so once and for all this question should be settled.

Admin wrote:I think we can all agree that Imam speaks and explains to people according to their level of understanding.

For example Imam may tell one person Islam exist since pre-eternity and tell some other since 1400 years to still to others as 1900 years. He will talk according to his audience in the same way a university teacher will not explain to kinder-garden children the same way he would to educated adult student writing his PhD thesis.

So lets us close this unending and repetitive debate here. Thanks you.

Not only pre eternal, 1400 yrs, 1900 years but in one of his farman he mentioned 1300 yrs also. In that farman Imam said," I would like you to remember that the tradition of our jamaits goes back 1300 yrs..." Nov 23, 1964. Did Imamat started 1300 yrs back?
So many variants and there was a discussion on 1900 years farman, still matter unsolved on this forum.

ShamsB wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote:

kmaherali wrote: So now you are denying the role of intellect in understanding of our faith. This is contrary to many Farmans of the Imam. One of them being:

"And let me today remind you also of some of the principles of interpretation which Hazrat Ali brought to our interpretation of Islam. One of the essential principles that he brought, was that Islam is not a faith only of rote, it is a faith of the intellect, it is a faith of individual search, it is a faith of commitment to others in society. In this intellectual search, Hazrat Ali did not divide faith and intellect Hazrat Ali said that intellect is another facet of faith. And it is upon us, upon you, to use your intellect within the ethic of our faith in whatever time and whatever place you live. Therefore, you have no division between intellect and faith. Thc use of intellect is the proper behavior in society at any given time." (Moscow, 1995)

Esoteric or mystical matters are never easy, otherwise everyone would be an Ismaili.

In his ITV interview MHI was asked:
ITV: One of the myths surrounding you is that some people in the West think of you as a living God. Not only is that not true, it is also blasphemous.

To which MHI replied:

AK: Absolutely. I mean as you know the faith of Islam was revealed at a time when the Arabian continent was idolatrous and idolatry, all forms of idolatry, are totally prohibited by Islam. It is certainly true to say that the Western world doesn’t necessarily understand the theology of Shi’ism nor indeed the theology of many mystical sects whether they are Shia or Sunni or Christian. Mysticism, in its, in its essence is difficult.

Hence from the above statement, while MHI acknowledged that idolaratory is blasphemous, he also said that mysticism is not easy in its essence, it is difficult.

In one of his Farmans the Imam indicated the difficulty of understanding esoteric and exoteric terms:

"I would like in the years ahead to feel that if I ask you, it may be difficult for you in the English language, but if I ask you what is the difference between Esoteric faith and Exoteric faith, you should be able to tell Me. These are difficult matters, but the better and the deeper your knowledge of your faith, the better and the deeper your understanding of our faith, the stronger you will be and the stronger our Jamat will be."(Bombay, Nov (, 1967)

In any case I am not being Nafarmani by saying Imam is Malikinaas and hence Illahinaas and Rabanaas. I am applying my intellect as per his Moscow Farman The Imam has always told us to study parts of the Quran in all his Farmans. This Forum discusses the Batini aspects of our faith. It is a batini forum and therefore it is appropriate to discuss such matters here.

If it was not due to batini aspects of our faith, this forum would not exist!

Can you elaborate on what changes the Imam made?

MSMS said in farman that during 70 years of Imamat he changed the farmans 70 times. Since 1960 Shah Karim Imam e Zaman has given different Hidayat in religious affairs. MSMS said," In every time Imam has something new to reveal".
Regarding this forum, look at the name 'Ismaili Heritage', it is not mentioned Batini Ismaili Heritage or Khoja Satpunthi Heritage, therefore all aspects of Ismaili tariqa should be discussed here. OR ask your friend Admins of which you are apart to change the name of this site as BATINI ISMAILI TARIQA.
Past 1400 years the Quran is same and respected by our all Imams from Mowla Ali to Shah Karim. Some missing parts is a Shia tradition and for that MSMS said "te amara ghar ma chhey". Your concept of parts of Quran is totally wrong as I explained in my previous post. Imam was talking about the surahs and ayats which were in religious school curriculum which Imam referred as parts of quran in curriculum to learn and understand.
I am not against role of intellect in faith, but who has right to interpret and show the correct intellect. In our community The religious or spiritual IQ varies, 'har koi apni boli boley ga' I am correct others are wrong. Therefore in our Tariqa only Imam has this right. I am against INDUCTIONS AND DEDUCTION type of things. For example; one can say by looking at a kitten that this is lion, when asked how, the reply was I deduced it. Or one can say actually water is wine because both are liquids, when asked how reply was oh, I deduced it.
Regarding your ITV reference when MHI was asked," in west you are considered as a living God, NOT ONLY IS THAT TRUE, BUT IT IS BLASPHEMOUS.
MHI replied ABSOLUTELY. ( after absolutely there is full stop means sentence is complete). The Imam started about explaining Shi'ism and mysticism.
Yes it is nafarmani and blasphemous statement that Imam is Rubbin Naas /Ilahin Naas/Malikin Naas.

Imam himself in the farman has agreed to Imam being Malik-i-nass..

So who are you to determine who He is or isn't?

And please go watch the interview - i've told you in a number of threads to pay close attention to what Hazar Imam is saying.

What is He saying Absolutely too?

Also the question was phrased incorrectly - the interviewer talked about A LIVING GOD - there isn't A living god - meaning plural - but ONE GOD....
and living implies that GOD DIES.


Shams

Shams ji, Aap ka post dekhney key liye aankhe(n) taras gai(n) thee(n).
I am not at home in English, my teacher told me, when there is full stop means sentence is complete.
"It is also blasphemous". Imam replied ABSOLUTELY. (full stop, sentence complete and new sentence or paragraph started).
Imam asked about meaning of malikin naas from a student and he no where declared he is MALIKIN NAAS. During that visit of India Imam many times used the phrase INSHA'ALLAH.
Shamsji, Arguments have feet of wood, you can cut any time and make new as you want.

ismaili103 wrote:Ali is not Allah

Ali is above Allah

RAM RAM NAMASKAAR,
Nice to see you back with same rhetoric.

shivaathervedi wrote:

ismaili103 wrote:Ali is not Allah

Ali is above Allah

RAM RAM NAMASKAAR,
Nice to see you back with same rhetoric.

Mowla Ali Madad

Thanks but Ali is more than above Allah.

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote: MSMS said in farman that during 70 years of Imamat he changed the farmans 70 times. Since 1960 Shah Karim Imam e Zaman has given different Hidayat in religious affairs. MSMS said," In every time Imam has something new to reveal"..

I was asking for what changes have been made in our Tariqah which you were alluding to. I am aware that the Farmans will change according to time.

In his Oct 1988 Farman in Dar es Salaam he said that the essence of our faith will not change.

In his Silver Jubilee Farman in Nairobi he said:

"I began My Farman by saying that in the past twenty five years, much has changed, but much has remained the same. What has remained the same is our understanding of Islam. What has remained is the practice of our Tariqah, what has remained is abiding by our traditions and I want to underline the importance of this to you today on this occasion, because there are parts of the world with people believing in other faiths who find it difficult to reconcile the interpretation of their faith and the modern world."(Oct 5th 1982)

shivaathervedi wrote: Regarding this forum, look at the name 'Ismaili Heritage', it is not mentioned Batini Ismaili Heritage or Khoja Satpunthi Heritage, therefore all aspects of Ismaili tariqa should be discussed here. OR ask your friend Admins of which you are apart to change the name of this site as BATINI ISMAILI TARIQA..

No need to do that. Ismaili Tariqah by definition is batini. It is an esoteric tradition. The Preamble mentions terms such as the bond between a murid and the Imam, tawil, talim, bayah. These are all related to an esoteric batini tradition.

shivaathervedi wrote: Your concept of parts of Quran is totally wrong as I explained in my previous post. Imam was talking about the surahs and ayats which were in religious school curriculum which Imam referred as parts of quran in curriculum to learn and understand..

It is not my concept but 'to study parts of the Quran' is mentioned by the Imam in ALL his Farmans.

shivaathervedi wrote: I am not against role of intellect in faith, but who has right to interpret and show the correct intellect. In our community The religious or spiritual IQ varies, 'har koi apni boli boley ga' I am correct others are wrong. Therefore in our Tariqa only Imam has this right. I am against INDUCTIONS AND DEDUCTION type of things. For example; one can say by looking at a kitten that this is lion, when asked how, the reply was I deduced it. Or one can say actually water is wine because both are liquids, when asked how reply was oh, I deduced it..

There are common accepted rules of logic which are shared by everyone. In our case, we know that the Imam said that he is Malikinaas. We know that the Quran says that Malikinaas, Rabbanaas and Illahinaas refers to Allah to whom we seek refuge. Therefore if the Imam is Malikinaas then it implies that he he also Rabbanaas and Illahinaas. This is according to commonly accepted rules of logic.

There is no way of deducing that a kitten is a lion. It is not accepted by anyone!

If I have been wrong in my deduction please explain the mistake.

shivaathervedi wrote: Regarding your ITV reference when MHI was asked," in west you are considered as a living God, NOT ONLY IS THAT TRUE, BUT IT IS BLASPHEMOUS.
MHI replied ABSOLUTELY. ( after absolutely there is full stop means sentence is complete). The Imam started about explaining Shi'ism and mysticism..

After saying that it a blasphemy, it was not the end but he went on to explain the difficulties of mysticism. It is not an easy path as you said.

shivaathervedi wrote: Yes it is nafarmani and blasphemous statement that Imam is Rubbin Naas /Ilahin Naas/Malikin Naas.

Explain why it is Nafarmani. When you accuse someone of Nafarmani you have to explain why. When I said you were being Na farmani, I said so because you were not using your intellect in understanding of our faith.

I do not call any one na farman I have no right. Nafarmani in a sense if a person does not obey Allah, Rasul, and Imam and goes against established tenets of Islam and Ismailism and say or propagate blasphemous things. In your previous post you admitted that by considering Imam as Rubbin nass exotericaly is blasphemous. We are not living in space away from human beings but in real world while interacting with other human beings and Muslims so we should be care full.
In ITV interview after he said ABSOLUTELY, THERE IS FULL STOP MEANS ANSWER WAS COMPLETE AND NEW SENTENCE OR PARAGRAPH STARTED.
Even in that paragraph he did not discussed about him being God.
Regarding deduction issue I gave you 2 examples there can be many. I gave you example of water and wine also, when asked a drunken (muslim) person what is difference between water and wine, he said both are same because both are liquids. That is his understanding when in reality water has no content of intoxication but he assumed in that way to satisfy his urge and thought it is legal what we call in Urdu' jawaaz paida karna' to satisfy himself that he is right and there is no damage or repercussions.
When I say ALLAH means He is my Rubb, I don't see in that any logic is involved or needed.
You have asked me about the main change which Imam has made? Please look what we are discussing; for main change is the KALIMA for example.
In 1945 MSMS refused to change then in around 1950 he changed it to ALIYULLAH. Still I am thinking why he did it? and in 1950 farman he explained "according to changing times". Words speak for themselves.

shivaathervedi wrote: I do not call any one na farman I have no right. Nafarmani in a sense if a person does not obey Allah, Rasul, and Imam and goes against established tenets of Islam and Ismailism and say or propagate blasphemous things. In your previous post you admitted that by considering Imam as Rubbin nass exotericaly is blasphemous. We are not living in space away from human beings but in real world while interacting with other human beings and Muslims so we should be care full.
In ITV interview after he said ABSOLUTELY, THERE IS FULL STOP MEANS ANSWER WAS COMPLETE AND NEW SENTENCE OR PARAGRAPH STARTED..

As I said earlier MHI mentioned this in the context of a Farman which implies the tawil/tafsir of the Sura for the Jamat. He did not say it publicly and off course in public which is the exoteric/zaher he will deny that notion. But we murids should be able to discuss the meaning of the verses from a Jamati/Batini perspective applying our intellects. This forum is meant for such discussions. Otherwise how else can we promote and understand the batini aspects of our faith?

Obviously it would not be correct to shout about it in the streets.

shivaathervedi wrote: When I say ALLAH means He is my Rubb, I don't see in that any logic is involved or needed.
You have asked me about the main change which Imam has made? Please look what we are discussing; for main change is the KALIMA for example.
In 1945 MSMS refused to change then in around 1950 he changed it to ALIYULLAH. Still I am thinking why he did it? and in 1950 farman he explained "according to changing times". Words speak for themselves.

In my opinion ALIYULLAH is more versatile and it can give different meanings according to one's understanding, whereas ALI SAHI ALLAH is exact and has only one meaning.

The change was due to the Jamats coming into contact more with other Muslims and hence ALI SAHI ALLAH can give offence whereas ALIYULLAH does not.

Nevertheless by the change, it was not intended that the meaning would also change.

ismaili103 wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote:

ismaili103 wrote:Ali is not Allah

Ali is above Allah

RAM RAM NAMASKAAR,
Nice to see you back with same rhetoric.

Mowla Ali Madad

Thanks but Ali is more than above Allah.

JAI MATA JI KI;

You might have Du'a book with meaning, if not borrow from Karimabad Religious Library and read the meaning of 2nd part of Du'a. There you will find meaning of ALIYULLA mentioned as ALI ALLAH KI JANIB SE HAI(N), means ALI IS FROM ALLAH.
ITREB functions according to Hidayat od Hazar Imam.

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote: I do not call any one na farman I have no right. Nafarmani in a sense if a person does not obey Allah, Rasul, and Imam and goes against established tenets of Islam and Ismailism and say or propagate blasphemous things. In your previous post you admitted that by considering Imam as Rubbin nass exotericaly is blasphemous. We are not living in space away from human beings but in real world while interacting with other human beings and Muslims so we should be care full.
In ITV interview after he said ABSOLUTELY, THERE IS FULL STOP MEANS ANSWER WAS COMPLETE AND NEW SENTENCE OR PARAGRAPH STARTED..

As I said earlier MHI mentioned this in the context of a Farman which implies the tawil/tafsir of the Sura for the Jamat. He did not say it publicly and off course in public which is the exoteric/zaher he will deny that notion. But we murids should be able to discuss the meaning of the verses from a Jamati/Batini perspective applying our intellects. This forum is meant for such discussions. Otherwise how else can we promote and understand the batini aspects of our faith?

Obviously it would not be correct to shout about it in the streets.

shivaathervedi wrote: When I say ALLAH means He is my Rubb, I don't see in that any logic is involved or needed.
You have asked me about the main change which Imam has made? Please look what we are discussing; for main change is the KALIMA for example.
In 1945 MSMS refused to change then in around 1950 he changed it to ALIYULLAH. Still I am thinking why he did it? and in 1950 farman he explained "according to changing times". Words speak for themselves.

In my opinion ALIYULLAH is more versatile and it can give different meanings according to one's understanding, whereas ALI SAHI ALLAH is exact and has only one meaning.

The change was due to the Jamats coming into contact more with other Muslims and hence ALI SAHI ALLAH can give offence whereas ALIYULLAH does not.

Nevertheless by the change, it was not intended that the meaning would also change.

You wrote, "in your opinion ALIYULLAH IS MORE VERSATILE AND IT CAN GIVE DIFFERENT MEANINGS....". Will you please mention some different meanings of Aliyullah. Karim you know basic Arabic and according to Arabic grammar rule of MUDHAF AND MUDHAFUN ILAIHI rule is applied, please shed some light on this rule too. For example; Kitabullah, Noorullah, Rasulullah, same way Aliyullah.
After writing Imam is Rubbin Naas is this not an offence to Mulim Ummah?!!
How you deduced that the meaning would not change; when phrase is changed meaning will change.

shivaathervedi wrote: You wrote, "in your opinion ALIYULLAH IS MORE VERSATILE AND IT CAN GIVE DIFFERENT MEANINGS....". Will you please mention some different meanings of Aliyullah.

Aliyullah can mean Ali is Allah, Ali of Allah, Ali from Allah. If one really follows the grammer rules Ali min Allah means Ali from Allah, but Aliyullah is translated as Ali from Allah. Ali sahi Allah is not completely Arabic. It's equivalent in Arabic is Aliyullah. Tell me what is the meaning of Ali is Allah in Arabic if not Aliyullah.

In my earlier post I related that MSMS had a discussion about the change of Kalima with Dr. Nathoo. I will requote here again:

"The first thing he had told me on his own was, when he was in my surgery in Nairobi, why he had recently modified the original Ismaili Kalma where the Kalma ended with words, “Amirulmominin Ali Sahi Allah” to “Amirulmominin Aliullah”. He told me that some leaders of the sister community had told him unofficially that if he modified the Kalma to “Aliyun Vali Allah”, they would all come into Ismailism. “Aliullah” was the most that he could accept."

Hence from the above we can see that he rejected the notion of Ali from Allah since he rejected the notion of him being the wali (from Allah).

shivaathervedi wrote: After writing Imam is Rubbin Naas is this not an offence to Mulim
Ummah?!!.

Writing about Imam is Rabban Naas and Illahinaas in this batini forum is not offensive, but it can be offensive if mentioned in a printed Farman.

shivaathervedi wrote: How you deduced that the meaning would not change; when phrase is changed meaning will change.

Do you think by changing the expression will change the nature of Imamat from being Allah to being someone from Allah? Do you think the Imamat would change from being Allah (as in Ali sahi Allah) to being something else just because of the change in expression?

If Ali is from Allah then what is the point in saying it at all? Aren't we all from Allah? What would be the difference between Ali and Us?

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote: You wrote, "in your opinion ALIYULLAH IS MORE VERSATILE AND IT CAN GIVE DIFFERENT MEANINGS....". Will you please mention some different meanings of Aliyullah.

Aliyullah can mean Ali is Allah, Ali of Allah, Ali from Allah. If one really follows the grammer rules Ali min Allah means Ali from Allah, but Aliyullah is translated as Ali from Allah. Ali sahi Allah is not completely Arabic. It's equivalent in Arabic is Aliyullah. Tell me what is the meaning of Ali is Allah in Arabic if not Aliyullah.

In my earlier post I related that MSMS had a discussion about the change of Kalima with Dr. Nathoo. I will requote here again:

"The first thing he had told me on his own was, when he was in my surgery in Nairobi, why he had recently modified the original Ismaili Kalma where the Kalma ended with words, “Amirulmominin Ali Sahi Allah” to “Amirulmominin Aliullah”. He told me that some leaders of the sister community had told him unofficially that if he modified the Kalma to “Aliyun Vali Allah”, they would all come into Ismailism. “Aliullah” was the most that he could accept."

Hence from the above we can see that he rejected the notion of Ali from Allah since he rejected the notion of him being the wali (from Allah).

shivaathervedi wrote: After writing Imam is Rubbin Naas is this not an offence to Mulim
Ummah?!!.

Writing about Imam is Rabban Naas and Illahinaas in this batini forum is not offensive, but it can be offensive if mentioned in a printed Farman.

shivaathervedi wrote: How you deduced that the meaning would not change; when phrase is changed meaning will change.

Do you think by changing the expression will change the nature of Imamat from being Allah to being someone from Allah? Do you think the Imamat would change from being Allah (as in Ali sahi Allah) to being something else just because of the change in expression?

If Ali is from Allah then what is the point in saying it at all? Aren't we all from Allah? What would be the difference between Ali and Us?

You gave 3 options;
Ali is Allah
Ali of Allah
Ali is from Allah.
So in your opinion one meaning of Aliyullah is," ALI IS FROM ALLAH". Karim this meaning is in your sub conscious that's why few years back you translated Aliyullah as Ali is from Allah in reply to a question asked on this forum. You admitted it lately then backed off.
As I understand, the the meaning of Aliyullah as 'Ali is from Allah' came from 1964 farman by MHI Shah Karim when he explained the meaning of Aliyullah as Ali is from Allah AND WAS LATER ON ADOPTED BY ITREBS IN TRANSLATION OF DU'A. Since then the Du'a translation books printed by various ITREBs contain same meaning whether from Pakistan, India, USA, or Canada. I am sure you should be aware of this same meaning in Du'a translation and this should have been discussed at IIS during your studies there.
My question is why you people should not woke up in the beginning with starting of this forum. You are an old contributor of this site where as I am a new kid on this block. Even Du'a translation on this forum reads meaning of Aliyullah as ALI IS FROM ALLAH!! MEANING IS NOT FROM MY SIDE I AM JUST POINTING IT.
When once or twice on yearly basis Du'a meaning is explained to jamaits in mostly all JKs where lecturar translates meaning of Aliyulla in 2nd part as Ali is from Allah, I did not see any objection or reaction from Jamait side. Means they have understood and adopted it.
Regarding statement by Dentist of MSMS, WE ARE NOT ABLE TO VERIFY IT.
There are many exaggerated things narrated, coined, or said by old missionaries ( I do not blame them they were performing their duties) and other individuals which can not be verified until we have solid proof according to modern scholarship. I have many to tell but until these are not verified I can't post. I wander why Imam did not mentioned these crucial changes to his wazirs, top leaders, Ismailia Association presidents but he just selected a Dentist.
Why Imam in first place caved in the pressure from other communities to change KALIMA PAAK WHICH WAS GOING ON FOR 600 YEARS AS SOME ONE CLAIMED ON THIS FORUM. I DO NOT CHALLENGE THE WISDOM OF IMAM BUT WHEN ONCE HE CHANGED IT AND EXPLAINED THE MEANING THEN WE HAVE TO FOLLOW HIS GUIDANCE.

Mazhar alias 10 names which i do not want to list, You have already been proven wrong but you continue inventing farmans. I thought there was a limit to indecency but it looks like you dont know it.. So from now on all your posts containing any invention or misleading info will be deleted. I suggest you do not waste our time with repetations and cut and paste.

Ya Ali Madad.
I was in Dubai for the games.Inclosing ceremony,there was a song a tribute to moula ALI.
it was like.
KAYA FUNE KAYA FUNE,KAYA FUNE KAYA FUNE.
JAB KUCH NAHI THAA,WAHI THAA WAHI THAA.
In nothingness(laa) only ALI existed.
simple answer how God chose the pen ultimate brand name with his name ans laa.
If the brand name Allah was only orignal name of god ,why dif few thousand prophets before Mohammed took that name.
it mean the name of the god was also evovling with each incoming prophets.

i liked a point posed by kmaherali that word sahi is an urdu word ,then
what would be right word in arabic for Ali Allah or Ali is Allah.
the important or core entity is alway out OF of a name or shell.

1.Sun OF the sunlight.
2.Engine OF the car.
3.Fruit OF the walnut shell.
4.ALI OF allah.( Aliuallah).

without the first core name the other part stand useless,nothing and almost void.
intellectual understanding is need .if one is badly stuck in common sense
let it go few thousand life cycles to be born as haqiqati from low end tariqati.

Seshnaag is right the tariqati perception ( exoteric/zahiri) direction of ITREB.
leave him to his faith /fate.
admin need to be wise here.
allow only one login name.
delete all his previous posting of wasting time with zahiri stand where word or word have baatin perception.
no new post of his allowed on real time basis but after 24 hour vettd by atleast two members plus Admin.
here we have a non ismaili another post more keen and desire to esoteric aspect of Ismailism anf get into out faith formally.
An average educate seshnaag brainwashed by somebody faaling down from low end tariqati to near shairiati level.
If our religion is upwardly mobile ,why the heck pages after pages wasted
on downwardly material of zahir perception.
that person should NOT be allowed to say tasbih asking for.
baitin and noorani didar of ALI.
and seek only zahiri didaar of ALI by sitting at home.
attendence of this seshnaag could be harmful in jamatkhana he may be attending.

shivaathervedi wrote:You gave 3 options;
Ali is Allah
Ali of Allah
Ali is from Allah.
So in your opinion one meaning of Aliyullah is," ALI IS FROM ALLAH". Karim this meaning is in your sub conscious that's why few years back you translated Aliyullah as Ali is from Allah in reply to a question asked on this forum. You admitted it lately then backed off..

I gave the 3rd option as 'Ali is from Allah' because it is widely adopted by the institutions but as I explained in my previous post, it is an incorrect translation from the technical point of few. It reflects the translation of ALI MIN ALLAH and not ALIYULLAH. It is adopted because it does not give offence but it is not the correct translation.

Our institutions should make a distinction of the zaheri and the batini translation. The zaheri one which does not give offence is ALI FROM ALLAH but the real and correct translation which is the batini one and for our Jamat must be ALI IS ALLAH which reflects the Imam as the Mazhar and the Illahinaas as per Farman. This distinction must be explained to our students.

It makes no sense to say ALIYULLAH in our Dua if the meaning is ALI FROM ALLAH. We might as well omit it! We are all from ALLAH, so what is special about ALI being from Allah? Hence within our Tariqah we must focus on the batini and the correct meaning.

shivaathervedi wrote: Regarding statement by Dentist of MSMS, WE ARE NOT ABLE TO VERIFY IT..

I knew the dentist Dr. Nathoo personally when I was in London and I used to meet with him daily to discuss many issues. I have photographs of him with MSMS. Whatever he has said is absolutely true. He was also the president of the Nairobi provincial council. MSMS chose him because he was the most learned out of the lot and who could explain the other leaders.

shivaathervedi wrote: Why Imam in first place caved in the pressure from other communities to change KALIMA PAAK WHICH WAS GOING ON FOR 600 YEARS AS SOME ONE CLAIMED ON THIS FORUM. I DO NOT CHALLENGE THE WISDOM OF IMAM BUT WHEN ONCE HE CHANGED IT AND EXPLAINED THE MEANING THEN WE HAVE TO FOLLOW HIS GUIDANCE.

As I explained in my previous post it was not intended to change the meaning. Only to make it less offensive. If the Imam intended to change the meaning he would have changed to ALIYUN VALI ALLAH or ALI MIN ALLAH but he stuck with ALIYULLAH which technically and correctly means ALI IS ALLAH.

YOU did not reply when I asked you in my previous post and I ask you again. If you think ALIYULLAH does not mean ALI IS ALLAH, what expression in Arabic would mean ALI IS ALLAH?

Admin wrote:Mazhar alias 10 names which i do not want to list, You have already been proven wrong but you continue inventing farmans. I thought there was a limit to indecency but it looks like you dont know it.. So from now on all your posts containing any invention or misleading info will be deleted. I suggest you do not waste our time with repetations and cut and paste.

Mazhar is a key word in Ismaili theology and philosophy.
Mazhar of Allah
Mazhar of Ali
Mazhar of Haqq
Mazhar of Shiva
Mazhar of Mazhar
Your mind keep wobbling here and there in hatred of me. Show me your decency, when I asked you to e-mail ITREB Karachi and verify that particular farman, it won't cost you a dime. BUT you are scared to do that because it is a correct farman; or e-mail to coordinator of ITREBs and verify from him, he won't bite you.
This thread is a direct debate on Aliyullah and not cut and paste. If I have posted cut and paste that is valuable information for youths and readers of this form. BY the way this site is 70% cut and paste, why you did not stopped that.
I would like you to UNLOCK THE THREADS 'QURAN IN PREAMBLE', HINDU MYTHOLOGY BY SHIVA, AND RECYCLING OF SOULS, there is new information to entertain readers and discuss ginans.

nuseri wrote:Ya Ali Madad.
I was in Dubai for the games.Inclosing ceremony,there was a song a tribute to moula ALI.
it was like.
KAYA FUNE KAYA FUNE,KAYA FUNE KAYA FUNE.
JAB KUCH NAHI THAA,WAHI THAA WAHI THAA.
In nothingness(laa) only ALI existed.
simple answer how God chose the pen ultimate brand name with his name ans laa.
If the brand name Allah was only orignal name of god ,why dif few thousand prophets before Mohammed took that name.
it mean the name of the god was also evovling with each incoming prophets.

i liked a point posed by kmaherali that word sahi is an urdu word ,then
what would be right word in arabic for Ali Allah or Ali is Allah.
the important or core entity is alway out OF of a name or shell.

1.Sun OF the sunlight.
2.Engine OF the car.
3.Fruit OF the walnut shell.
4.ALI OF allah.( Aliuallah).

without the first core name the other part stand useless,nothing and almost void.
intellectual understanding is need .if one is badly stuck in common sense
let it go few thousand life cycles to be born as haqiqati from low end tariqati.

Seshnaag is right the tariqati perception ( exoteric/zahiri) direction of ITREB.
leave him to his faith /fate.
admin need to be wise here.
allow only one login name.
delete all his previous posting of wasting time with zahiri stand where word or word have baatin perception.
no new post of his allowed on real time basis but after 24 hour vettd by atleast two members plus Admin.
here we have a non ismaili another post more keen and desire to esoteric aspect of Ismailism anf get into out faith formally.
An average educate seshnaag brainwashed by somebody faaling down from low end tariqati to near shairiati level.
If our religion is upwardly mobile ,why the heck pages after pages wasted
on downwardly material of zahir perception.
that person should NOT be allowed to say tasbih asking for.
baitin and noorani didar of ALI.
and seek only zahiri didaar of ALI by sitting at home.
attendence of this seshnaag could be harmful in jamatkhana he may be attending.

You should have seen the images of Shiva in Mumbai or else where in India. You can see a snake (shish naag) garlanding his neck and that snake is creeping in your brain.
Will you please quote the complete Qasida or wordings of poem. What is meant by KAYA FUNE, KAYA FUNE? In second line you wrote, there is no name mentioned, it was only laa.
In Hebrew Jews use the word Ulluhum/alluhum which is equal to Allahuma used in Islam and we use in our Du'a means YA ALLAH.
You wrote;
Sun of Sunlight
Engine of car
Fruit of walnut tree
Ali of Allah
Please analyse your phrases/examples. You have written about two entities. When you discuss two entities it is called duality.
If there is no Sun there will be no light, same way if there is no car there will be no engine, if there is no tree there will be no fruit same way no Allah no Ali according to your explanation.
COMPETE-EXCEL-UNITY.

shivaathervedi wrote: Your mind keep wobbling here and there in hatred of me. Show me your decency, when I asked you to e-mail ITREB Karachi and verify that particular farman, it won't cost you a dime. .

It is not to me to show that the Farman does not exist. It is to you to show that the Farman exist. This is called the onus of the proof. Get some education please.

I have been collecting Farmans and Talikas and Hydayat and Constitutions, Rules and Regulations, reports, Minutes and Guidelines since 40 years in institutions of probably more countries of this planet than you will even visit in your life so please do not ever try to invent "farmans". I know which ones have been made by our Imams and which ones you have invented.

Admin wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote: Your mind keep wobbling here and there in hatred of me. Show me your decency, when I asked you to e-mail ITREB Karachi and verify that particular farman, it won't cost you a dime. .

It is not to me to show that the Farman does not exist. It is to you to show that the Farman exist. This is called the onus of the proof. Get some education please.

I have been collecting Farmans and Talikas and Hydayat and Constitutions, Rules and Regulations, reports, Minutes and Guidelines since 40 years in institutions of probably more countries of this planet than you will even visit in your life so please do not ever try to invent "farmans". I know which ones have been made by our Imams and which ones you have invented.

The copy of that particular farman was provided to you. What else!!
Please e-mail the same copy of farman provided to ITREB Karachi and verify it. Why are you scared. I stand by my statement because I have physical copy of that farman.
I appreciate your hard work of collecting farmans and manuscripts add one of mine to your collections. Hazar Imam said 'smiling is blessing of Allah', is this a fake farman?