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Recycling of souls.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali madad:

In simple definination
Noor is subtle light of divine intellect.
Noor can observed in many facet.
Like a glittering star ,a self illuminated cloud( not burning gas or blazing).
It implies it can be seen by believers.
MHI clearly stated that in a Speech that NOOR is understanding that relates to intellect.
Which is reflected from ones mind,hand writing or talks.like Holy book is termed as Noor so as ginan because they lighten the mind with its intellectual content..

BTW a human body does emit light. It can called as glowing from within and not external fairness of the skin.
If one observes the pole star to tariqat platform of Ali.
It is the one and only brightest star not moved a micro millimeter since creation.
All the astrology study starts making it as base.It light remains constant no matter the distance.
Einstein stated that there is relative gravity in space,scientists will or may get exploring the
The axis and field of the pole Star.
Finally if Noor was solid matter,or insvisble or object like sun then same would have been said in holy book or imam is one simple straight line.
Many definitions and equations will come from noorani Momin of ALI now and in future.
Imam SMS has amara Momin mojija karse,they will power n visibility Noor on the ground
Which will surprise humanity.
If the word light is used,it reflect the divinity of God,so the word divine comes,it facets are visible as well as abstract then nearest relative word subtle is used.
This definition may or may stand test time.
Let Time and ALI be the judge
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sameernoorani5



Joined: 26 Jul 2015
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quran says," We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe". Surah #21, al Ambiy'a; ayat # 30.
Is there any connection between Noor and Water?
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sameernoorani5 wrote:
Quran says," We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe". Surah #21, al Ambiy'a; ayat # 30.
Is there any connection between Noor and Water?


Water in the Qur'an, like Noor, is used allegorically and may not necessarily mean the water as we know it.
In another verse it says about the Paradise having 4 rivers of [Water, Milk, Honey and Wine]. These 4 elements has deeper esoteric ta'wil signifying deeper concepts than it's literal and face values.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali madad.
Water is a part of Creation ,it is NOT A NOOR by itself.If somebody is holding a cocktail with water inside, it is not holding Noor.
All living creature even you included has water content those are human,plant, soil,animals,etc.
Only humans has facet of understanding & intellect,so the soul of a human can be connected to universal soul/NOOR but not all living things.
Water is also called as life by poets to express its divine values as it sustain life of all living things., but one cannot see water being lively.
Water can be graded into many levels like salty,sewage water,spring water and holy water based on its source n beliefs.
I fell all baby and nursery level questions must go nursery section in the forum.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5939

PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes there is even a thesis from 1978 which talks of water as symbol of purity in various faiths. That is for people who are a little bit learned in Batini matters. For other indeed water is a mix of chemical element only which can be graded, therefore Abe Safa would not be Noor but oxygen and hydrogen and few other dirt..
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agakhani



Joined: 20 May 2015
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In another verse it says about the Paradise having 4 rivers of [Water, Milk, Honey and Wine].



Does Quran really talk about wine? once, I asked this question to my Sunny turned no religion person!! first he laughed and answered me that wine is necessary because there are plenty "HURAS" and to use Huras you must have to have a drink of wine!!!
Question: Does wine is permitted in paradise?
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
Does Quran really talk about wine?
Question: Does wine is permitted in paradise?


Yes it is mentioned.

But, like any other elements, i.e. Water, Noor, wine is allegorical.

In many Ismaili Centers, including the recent in Toronto, this concept is depicted in the Aga Khan Park. In Ismaili Center in UK, the same concept is depicted, the 4 rivers.
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sameernoorani5



Joined: 26 Jul 2015
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
sameernoorani5 wrote:
Quran says," We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe". Surah #21, al Ambiy'a; ayat # 30.
Is there any connection between Noor and Water?


Water in the Qur'an, like Noor, is used allegorically and may not necessarily mean the water as we know it.
In another verse it says about the Paradise having 4 rivers of [Water, Milk, Honey and Wine]. These 4 elements has deeper esoteric ta'wil signifying deeper concepts than it's literal and face values.



If the word Noor used in Quran is allegorical then what about the words like
Allah, MUhammad, Musa, Daud, Zakaria, Issa, used in Quran. Are they allegorical or real entities?
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sainoorani5 wrote:
tret wrote:
sameernoorani5 wrote:
Quran says," We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe". Surah #21, al Ambiy'a; ayat # 30.
Is there any connection between Noor and Water?


Water in the Qur'an, like Noor, is used allegorically and may not necessarily mean the water as we know it.
In another verse it says about the Paradise having 4 rivers of [Water, Milk, Honey and Wine]. These 4 elements has deeper esoteric ta'wil signifying deeper concepts than it's literal and face values.



If the word Noor used in Quran is allegorical then what about the words like
Allah, MUhammad, Musa, Daud, Zakaria, Issa, used in Quran. Are they allegorical or real entities?


I think it'd be unwise to generalize whether everything in Qur'an is symbolic or literal. There are verses which are very stright forward and there are which are symbolic.

The parables and symbols certainly have deeper esoteric ta'weel and should not be taken for its face value.
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sameernoorani5



Joined: 26 Jul 2015
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
sainoorani5 wrote:
tret wrote:
sameernoorani5 wrote:
Quran says," We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe". Surah #21, al Ambiy'a; ayat # 30.
Is there any connection between Noor and Water?


Water in the Qur'an, like Noor, is used allegorically and may not necessarily mean the water as we know it.
In another verse it says about the Paradise having 4 rivers of [Water, Milk, Honey and Wine]. These 4 elements has deeper esoteric ta'wil signifying deeper concepts than it's literal and face values.



If the word Noor used in Quran is allegorical then what about the words like
Allah, MUhammad, Musa, Daud, Zakaria, Issa, used in Quran. Are they allegorical or real entities?


I think it'd be unwise to generalize whether everything in Qur'an is symbolic or literal. There are verses which are very stright forward and there are which are symbolic.

The parables and symbols certainly have deeper esoteric ta'weel and should not be taken for its face value.



The question arose because you wrote," Noor is used allegorically". Again question arises, a portion of Quran is allegorical, some other portion has ta'weel and rest of Quran we understand literally! Quran says," Allahu noorus samawati wal ardh". The word Noor is related to Allah and if it is allegorical, means word Allah will be also allegorical. Need some explaination.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19787

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sameernoorani5 wrote:
The question arose because you wrote," Noor is used allegorically". Again question arises, a portion of Quran is allegorical, some other portion has ta'weel and rest of Quran we understand literally! Quran says," Allahu noorus samawati wal ardh". The word Noor is related to Allah and if it is allegorical, means word Allah will be also allegorical. Need some explaination.
MSMS says in his Memoirs:

"Fortunately the Koran has itself made this task easy, for it contains a number of verses which declare that Allah speaks to man in allegory and parable. Thus the Koran leaves the door open for all kinds of possibilities of interpretation so that no one interpreter can accuse another of being non-Muslim. A felicitous effect of this fundamental principle of Islam that the Koran is constantly open to allegorical interpretation has been that our Holy Book has been able to guide and illuminate the thought of believers, century after century, in accordance with the conditions and limitations of intellectual appreciation imposed by external influences in the world. It leads also to a greater charity among Muslims, for since there can be no cut-and-dried interpretation, all schools of thought can unite in the prayer that the Almighty in His infinite mercy may forgive any mistaken interpretation of the Faith whose cause is ignorance or misunderstanding."

The above statement implies that the entire Qur'an is allegorical. The word 'ayat' means sign and the Qur'an is composed of signs, hence the entire Qur'an is signs.
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sameernoorani5



Joined: 26 Jul 2015
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sameernoorani5 wrote:
Quran says," We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe". Surah #21, al Ambiy'a; ayat # 30.
Is there any connection between Noor and Water?



DHARTI BHI PAANI KE VIRA MARA PAATAL SARWEY PAANI
EEVA PAANI TEY LOHA TRAMBA SAAR

EARTH IS WATER MY BROTHER AND DEEP OCEANS ARE WATER
ALSO IRON AND COPPER ARE WATER

LAKH CHOURASI EY VIRA MARA JEEVA JORR SARVEY PAANI
EEVA PAANI TEY VARANN ADDHAAR

8.4 MILLION SPECIES OF CREATION ARE ALL WATER MY BROTHER
LIKE THAT 18 TYPES OF (VEGITATIONS) ARE WATER

PIR SADRUDDIN.
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sameernoorani5



Joined: 26 Jul 2015
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We believe present Imam supersedes farman of his predecessor ; Is this concept applies to pirs also, that a pir supersedes and make change in ginans according to time.
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sameernoorani5



Joined: 26 Jul 2015
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
sameernoorani5 wrote:
The question arose because you wrote," Noor is used allegorically". Again question arises, a portion of Quran is allegorical, some other portion has ta'weel and rest of Quran we understand literally! Quran says," Allahu noorus samawati wal ardh". The word Noor is related to Allah and if it is allegorical, means word Allah will be also allegorical. Need some explaination.
MSMS says in his Memoirs:

"Fortunately the Koran has itself made this task easy, for it contains a number of verses which declare that Allah speaks to man in allegory and parable. Thus the Koran leaves the door open for all kinds of possibilities of interpretation so that no one interpreter can accuse another of being non-Muslim. A felicitous effect of this fundamental principle of Islam that the Koran is constantly open to allegorical interpretation has been that our Holy Book has been able to guide and illuminate the thought of believers, century after century, in accordance with the conditions and limitations of intellectual appreciation imposed by external influences in the world. It leads also to a greater charity among Muslims, for since there can be no cut-and-dried interpretation, all schools of thought can unite in the prayer that the Almighty in His infinite mercy may forgive any mistaken interpretation of the Faith whose cause is ignorance or misunderstanding."

The above statement implies that the entire Qur'an is allegorical. The word 'ayat' means sign and the Qur'an is composed of signs, hence the entire Qur'an is signs.



Basically Memoirs was written for general public and was targeted to western
readers.
In the paragraph it is mentioned " for it contains number of verses which declare Allah speaks to man in allegory and in parables". Please note that words are ' it contain number of verses'. It is a indicator that MSMS is not talking of entire Quran as allegorical.
According to you if entire Quran is allegorical let me ask you from D'ua;
Bismillah
obey Allah, obey Rasul, obey Ulil amr.
Allahuma bi Haqi Mowlana Ali...
Raba naghfir
lana zunubana...
What will be the allegorical meaning of above sentences, there are many more in Quran.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19787

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sameernoorani5 wrote:
Basically Memoirs was written for general public and was targeted to western
readers.
In the paragraph it is mentioned " for it contains number of verses which declare Allah speaks to man in allegory and in parables". Please note that words are ' it contain number of verses'. It is a indicator that MSMS is not talking of entire Quran as allegorical.
According to you if entire Quran is allegorical let me ask you from D'ua;
Bismillah
obey Allah, obey Rasul, obey Ulil amr..

OK may be the Memoirs is directed towards the 'external' audience. MHI has given the same message in his Farman:

"Do not forget that our branch of Islam is an esoteric branch of Islam. Esoteric means that what is written is there, but its meaning is not there to everyone. It is there to those who are part of our Jamat. And it is important, therefore, that if you learn parts of the Quran, you should be able to explain the esoteric meaning of those parts."(Bombay, Nov 22, 1967)

Ulil Amr can have many concepts/meanings depending on one's faith. In our tariqah it means the Imams. According to others it means learned scholars.
sameernoorani5 wrote:

Allahuma bi Haqi Mowlana Ali...
Raba naghfir
lana zunubana...
What will be the allegorical meaning of above sentences, there are many more in Quran.
I don't think the statements are part of the Qur'an. Provide references.
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sameernoorani5



Joined: 26 Jul 2015
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
sameernoorani5 wrote:
Basically Memoirs was written for general public and was targeted to western
readers.
In the paragraph it is mentioned " for it contains number of verses which declare Allah speaks to man in allegory and in parables". Please note that words are ' it contain number of verses'. It is a indicator that MSMS is not talking of entire Quran as allegorical.
According to you if entire Quran is allegorical let me ask you from D'ua;
Bismillah
obey Allah, obey Rasul, obey Ulil amr..

OK may be the Memoirs is directed towards the 'external' audience. MHI has given the same message in his Farman:

"Do not forget that our branch of Islam is an esoteric branch of Islam. Esoteric means that what is written is there, but its meaning is not there to everyone. It is there to those who are part of our Jamat. And it is important, therefore, that if you learn parts of the Quran, you should be able to explain the esoteric meaning of those parts."(Bombay, Nov 22, 1967)

Ulil Amr can have many concepts/meanings depending on one's faith. In our tariqah it means the Imams. According to others it means learned scholars.
sameernoorani5 wrote:

Allahuma bi Haqi Mowlana Ali...
Raba naghfir
lana zunubana...
What will be the allegorical meaning of above sentences, there are many more in Quran.
I don't think the statements are part of the Qur'an. Provide references.



By quoting Imam's farman you made it easier, Imam used the words," Parts of the Quran, you should be able to explain the esoteric meaning of those parts". It means parts of Quran have esoteric meaning and not whole Quran is allegorical.
For simplicity I mentioned phrases from D'ua, You did not answer for BISMILLAH, what will be ta'weel for ATI'ULLAH WA ATI'URRASUL. Every Ismaili know ULLIL AMR means Imam.
The words ALLHUMA, ALI AND BIHAQQI are Quranic words.
RABBNAGHFIR LAN ZUNUBANA are used in surah AAL E IMRAN, AYAT # 147.
Let me ask you TA'WEEL of few more;
ALHAMDU LILLAHI.
IYYAKANA A'BUDU WA IYYAKANA NASTA'EEN.
LA TAKHUNULLAHA WARASUL.
ALLAHUSAMAD.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19787

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sameernoorani5 wrote:
By quoting Imam's farman you made it easier, Imam used the words," Parts of the Quran, you should be able to explain the esoteric meaning of those parts". It means parts of Quran have esoteric meaning and not whole Quran is allegorical..
By mentioning 'parts of the Qur'an' MHI implies that we should only study parts that are relevant for us and not the entire Qur'an:

"I would like you to go on improving your knowledge and your understanding of the Dua and of those parts of the Quran e Sharif which are important to us in our everyday lives in our understanding of our faith."(Bombay, Nov 9, 1967)

Otherwise everything that is written has a batini meaning.

"Esoteric means that what is written is there, but its meaning is not there to everyone."
sameernoorani5 wrote:

For simplicity I mentioned phrases from D'ua, You did not answer for BISMILLAH, what will be ta'weel for ATI'ULLAH WA ATI'URRASUL. Every Ismaili know ULLIL AMR means Imam.
The words ALLHUMA, ALI AND BIHAQQI are Quranic words.
RABBNAGHFIR LAN ZUNUBANA are used in surah AAL E IMRAN, AYAT # 147.
Let me ask you TA'WEEL of few more;
ALHAMDU LILLAHI.
IYYAKANA A'BUDU WA IYYAKANA NASTA'EEN.
LA TAKHUNULLAHA WARASUL.
ALLAHUSAMAD.

Of course you must understand that words by themselves are not meaningful unless they are part of a sentence. This notwithstanding every word in Arabic can have multiple meanings. Qur'an being a universal message was revealed to people of all faiths.

Hence BISMILLAH can be interpreted as in the name of Jesus, Krishna etc.

ATTIULLAH can be interpreted as o'obey krishna or budha'

Rasul can be interpreted as Sri Raam.

Therefore all words can be intepreted differently.
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sameernoorani5



Joined: 26 Jul 2015
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
sameernoorani5 wrote:
By quoting Imam's farman you made it easier, Imam used the words," Parts of the Quran, you should be able to explain the esoteric meaning of those parts". It means parts of Quran have esoteric meaning and not whole Quran is allegorical..
By mentioning 'parts of the Qur'an' MHI implies that we should only study parts that are relevant for us and not the entire Qur'an:

"I would like you to go on improving your knowledge and your understanding of the Dua and of those parts of the Quran e Sharif which are important to us in our everyday lives in our understanding of our faith."(Bombay, Nov 9, 1967)

Otherwise everything that is written has a batini meaning.

"Esoteric means that what is written is there, but its meaning is not there to everyone."
sameernoorani5 wrote:

For simplicity I mentioned phrases from D'ua, You did not answer for BISMILLAH, what will be ta'weel for ATI'ULLAH WA ATI'URRASUL. Every Ismaili know ULLIL AMR means Imam.
The words ALLHUMA, ALI AND BIHAQQI are Quranic words.
RABBNAGHFIR LAN ZUNUBANA are used in surah AAL E IMRAN, AYAT # 147.
Let me ask you TA'WEEL of few more;
ALHAMDU LILLAHI.
IYYAKANA A'BUDU WA IYYAKANA NASTA'EEN.
LA TAKHUNULLAHA WARASUL.
ALLAHUSAMAD.

Of course you must understand that words by themselves are not meaningful unless they are part of a sentence. This notwithstanding every word in Arabic can have multiple meanings. Qur'an being a universal message was revealed to people of all faiths.

Hence BISMILLAH can be interpreted as in the name of Jesus, Krishna etc.

ATTIULLAH can be interpreted as o'obey krishna or budha'

Rasul can be interpreted as Sri Raam.

Therefore all words can be intepreted differently.



Ismailis believe in 'HADITH E SAQLAIN'. Imam and Quran will stay till dooms day. The parts of Quran farman has been taken out of context. Imam made this farman during religious gathering of RC students and Association. In that gathering there was some recitation of Quranic ayats and surahs. Imam pointed out to those recitation as saying parts of the Quran and asked some questions.
Did Hazar Imam ever said in his farmans that my followers believe only in some parts of Quran and rest of Quran is not relevant or of no use?
Why in Toronto Museum Imam has kept 200+ obsolete copies of complete hand written Quran from Fatimid era on display. Are these just parts of Quran kept on display?
In Preamble Imam has not used the words 'parts of Quran'.
Not only sentences but hundreds of phrases and individual words have deep inner meaning and ta'weel, like Noor, Amr, ArRuh, Ilm, Iqra', Din, all attribute names of Allah. These and other individual words are important in Ismaili Ta'limaat. Imam himself has used the single words or Quran, like
KOUKAB, ZAITUN, YOUM U DIN.
There is no mention of Rama, Krishna, or Hari in Quran, the debate is on Quran and not on Hindu literature. In one of your postings, you equated Rama as Ali and now you wrote Rasul can be interpreted as Sri Kirishna.
Bismillah can not be used for Christ or Rama; means you are equating Allah with Christ! In our Du'a there is no mention of Rama or Christ and Du'a is given by Imam. This kind of interpretation will derail youths from our Tariqa.
Youths are asking serious questions which so far are not on this forum.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sameernoorani5 wrote:
kmaherali wrote:
sameernoorani5 wrote:
By quoting Imam's farman you made it easier, Imam used the words," Parts of the Quran, you should be able to explain the esoteric meaning of those parts". It means parts of Quran have esoteric meaning and not whole Quran is allegorical..
By mentioning 'parts of the Qur'an' MHI implies that we should only study parts that are relevant for us and not the entire Qur'an:

"I would like you to go on improving your knowledge and your understanding of the Dua and of those parts of the Quran e Sharif which are important to us in our everyday lives in our understanding of our faith."(Bombay, Nov 9, 1967)

Otherwise everything that is written has a batini meaning.

"Esoteric means that what is written is there, but its meaning is not there to everyone."
sameernoorani5 wrote:

For simplicity I mentioned phrases from D'ua, You did not answer for BISMILLAH, what will be ta'weel for ATI'ULLAH WA ATI'URRASUL. Every Ismaili know ULLIL AMR means Imam.
The words ALLHUMA, ALI AND BIHAQQI are Quranic words.
RABBNAGHFIR LAN ZUNUBANA are used in surah AAL E IMRAN, AYAT # 147.
Let me ask you TA'WEEL of few more;
ALHAMDU LILLAHI.
IYYAKANA A'BUDU WA IYYAKANA NASTA'EEN.
LA TAKHUNULLAHA WARASUL.
ALLAHUSAMAD.

Of course you must understand that words by themselves are not meaningful unless they are part of a sentence. This notwithstanding every word in Arabic can have multiple meanings. Qur'an being a universal message was revealed to people of all faiths.

Hence BISMILLAH can be interpreted as in the name of Jesus, Krishna etc.

ATTIULLAH can be interpreted as o'obey krishna or budha'

Rasul can be interpreted as Sri Raam.

Therefore all words can be intepreted differently.



Ismailis believe in 'HADITH E SAQLAIN'. Imam and Quran will stay till dooms day. The parts of Quran farman has been taken out of context. Imam made this farman during religious gathering of RC students and Association. In that gathering there was some recitation of Quranic ayats and surahs. Imam pointed out to those recitation as saying parts of the Quran and asked some questions.
Did Hazar Imam ever said in his farmans that my followers believe only in some parts of Quran and rest of Quran is not relevant or of no use?
Why in Toronto Museum Imam has kept 200+ obsolete copies of complete hand written Quran from Fatimid era on display. Are these just parts of Quran kept on display?
In Preamble Imam has not used the words 'parts of Quran'.
Not only sentences but hundreds of phrases and individual words have deep inner meaning and ta'weel, like Noor, Amr, ArRuh, Ilm, Iqra', Din, all attribute names of Allah. These and other individual words are important in Ismaili Ta'limaat. Imam himself has used the single words or Quran, like
KOUKAB, ZAITUN, YOUM U DIN.
There is no mention of Rama, Krishna, or Hari in Quran, the debate is on Quran and not on Hindu literature. In one of your postings, you equated Rama as Ali and now you wrote Rasul can be interpreted as Sri Kirishna.
Bismillah can not be used for Christ or Rama; means you are equating Allah with Christ! In our Du'a there is no mention of Rama or Christ and Du'a is given by Imam. This kind of interpretation will derail youths from our Tariqa.
Youths are asking serious questions which so far are not on this forum.


In my opinion Sameer - you are being somewhat myopic and colonial in your views.
Here are some questions -

Do you know the History and the origin of the word Allah? What does it mean? Think about the etymology of the word - the History...

Are you aware that when Middle Eastern Christians use the word Allah when they pray and refer to God the Father?...(ISIS recently issued a fatwa telling them not to do that anymore)

Remember the Quran has to be read in a contextual setting and that is one of the Arabic culture. Islam is universal - beyond a culture.

Islam has been there from before creation and will be there after creation. Islam didn't start on the 23rd of Ramadhan.

Shams
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 498

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
you equated Rama as Ali and now you wrote Rasul can be interpreted as Sri Kirishna.


You cannot equate them because we can only equate two different beings with each other, but here Ali and Ram both are one entity, they both are Imam of the time and both have the one Noor e Imamat/ Noor e Ali/Noor e Khuda.

Imam in his memoirs said that, Krishna was the divinely inspired messenger which means Krishna was the Imam aswell as the Prophet at the same time, just like Hazir Imam is Imam and Pir both at the same time.

If you are an Ismaili and think Islam is only 1400 years old then there is no difference between you and other 71 sect of Islam.
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 498

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you know the History and the origin of the word Allah? What does it mean? Think about the etymology of the word - the History...


Shams bhai I am sure he doesn't know the history of word Allah, let me know him.

Word Allah is derived from "Al Illah" which was used by Pagans before Islam. Al Illah was the name of the most powerfull and greatest Idol of the Kaaba, Al Illah was nothing but big sized idol, and after Islam muslims adopted that name.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sameernoorani5 wrote:

Ismailis believe in 'HADITH E SAQLAIN'. Imam and Quran will stay till dooms day. .
There was no compiled Qur'an when the Prophet made the statement. So which book was he referring to. It was NOT the one compiled by Uthman. We also know that Uthman compiled the Qur'an from variant existing versions. So the Uthmanic Qur'an is corrupt, hence the whole Qur'an is not important for us, only parts as indicated by the Imam.
sameernoorani5 wrote:

The parts of Quran farman has been taken out of context. Imam made this farman during religious gathering of RC students and Association. In that gathering there was some recitation of Quranic ayats and surahs. Imam pointed out to those recitation as saying parts of the Quran and asked some questions..


That is not true. No Quranic Ayats were recited . Only Dua was recited. So he was not referrring to any recited verses but was making a general statement about what should be studied.

Below is the Farman from the beginning:

My beloved spiritual children,

I give first of all to all My spiritual children present here, each one of you individually, My warmest, My most affectionate and My most loving blessings. Khanavadan, Khanavadan.

My beloved spiritual children,

I have been very happy to hear this morning those spiritual children who came here close to Me to recite Dua and to recite the meaning of the Dua. However, I am not going to accept from the teachers of the religious night schools, simply to listen to those spiritual children who are the best in the religious night schools. I would like any spiritual child who is here present, who attends religious night school, to answer to Me what is the meaning of Malikin naas. You know the Sura which says Kul A 'uzu bir Rabin naas,Elahin naas. What does Malikin naas mean? Which is the spiritual child here who can tell Me the meaning of Malikin naas?

(One spiritual child gave the meaning of "Malikin naas Master of the People The Imam "; Hazar Imam was very pleased )

Good, very good. My beloved spiritual children, I will go further. In the same Sura you have Kul A'uzu bir Rabin naas, Malikin naas, Elahin naas, Min shar ril vasaasil Khannas. What does the word Vasvaas mean. What is the meaning of the word Vasvaas. It is important to know the meaning.

(A spiritual child answered in Gujrati 'Vasvasaa")

Good, very good. My beloved spiritual children, I am very happy to see that I can ask you what are difficult questions and there is always someone present who knows the answer. This is very, very good. I will ask you one more question. What is the meaning of Yaum id din? I want someone here to tell Me, what is the meaning of Yaum id din.

(A spiritual child answered, "The day of Judgement")

My beloved spiritual children,

I was happy to see that your knowledge since I was last here and your understanding of both the Dua and other Suras of the Quran e Sharif is much better than when I was last here, much, much better. I would like you to go on improving your knowledge and your understanding of the Dua and of those parts of the Quran e Sharif which are important to us in our everyday lives in our understanding of our faith.
sameernoorani5 wrote:

Did Hazar Imam ever said in his farmans that my followers believe only in some parts of Quran and rest of Quran is not relevant or of no use?
Why in Toronto Museum Imam has kept 200+ obsolete copies of complete hand written Quran from Fatimid era on display. Are these just parts of Quran kept on display?
In Preamble Imam has not used the words 'parts of Quran'..

From the Farman I have quoted above it is clear that the Imam wants us to study those parts which are relevant for us. You have to use your intellect also to determine whether the rest of the Qur'an is important or not. We know that MSMS and Pir Shahbuddin has said that the Qur'an is corrupt so just be fully aware of it.
What is displayed in the museum is for the world and not for the Jamat only. In the constitution it is referred to the Qur'an revealed to the Prophet and NOT the Uthmanic Qur'an. And the constitution is a statement made to the general public, not specifically to the Jamat.
sameernoorani5 wrote:

Not only sentences but hundreds of phrases and individual words have deep inner meaning and ta'weel, like Noor, Amr, ArRuh, Ilm, Iqra', Din, all attribute names of Allah. These and other individual words are important in Ismaili Ta'limaat. Imam himself has used the single words or Quran, like
KOUKAB, ZAITUN, YOUM U DIN. .

Well if there are parts of the Qur'an that are of relevance, then we must of course study them as per Farman. But there are also other parts which may not have relevance to us.
sameernoorani5 wrote:

There is no mention of Rama, Krishna, or Hari in Quran, the debate is on Quran and not on Hindu literature. In one of your postings, you equated Rama as Ali and now you wrote Rasul can be interpreted as Sri Kirishna.
Bismillah can not be used for Christ or Rama; means you are equating Allah with Christ! In our Du'a there is no mention of Rama or Christ and Du'a is given by Imam. This kind of interpretation will derail youths from our Tariqa.
Youths are asking serious questions which so far are not on this forum.
The debate was whether the Qur'an was allegorical or literal so I said that it can be interpreted according to the person's beliefs. The Qur'an was revealed for all faiths. So if a Hindu reads it, he may interpret it according to his faith. It is open to all interpretations not just Ismaili interpretation.
Of course we Ismailis have our own interpretation and we must stick to it. So we can tell our youths to stick to it and not to worry what others may interpret it. The issue of derailment does not arise!
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
...those parts which are relevant for us...


Please tell us what are those parts?

It's very dangerous to take Imam's farmaan out of context and present half-truth.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5939

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is reasonable to infer that Imam knows which parts of the Original Quran are in the compilation and that when he quotes some of those parts, these are the one which are to be relied on, not others for which we do not know how much "has been added" and how much "removed"
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad:
Nice to see qualitative scholastic reply from ShamsB and Kmaherali.
One is debating with a very cunning living creature who see that the book of poems having jack n Jill,ringa ringa rose to there in 4th grade is school,colleges and PhD.
as these book still forms a part of nursery curriculum.
In a same way what IMAM SMS said in selection of ginans,MHI hinted but rather ordered to know those parts.
It simply tell that those in know of Baatin will know that and it not open for all to understand n explain those.
As to posting of Admin on water somewhere early.As water is one of a miracle of God's creation. Just by praying a kalima or mantra into water n drink it as blessing n gift of God has it own holistic view and heath benefit.
If study is done IT WILL SHOW that from many religions in foremost Ismailis as an ritual drink that water assumed HOLY has lowest case of blood cancer n to some extent even prostate Cancer. They also are least prone to acidity.
Our very ABHE SHAFA will prove to be a holistic prevention to a very great extent for blood cancer,for which no formidable cure is still found on earth.
I will put it on App called ALI (Almighty Lives Inside).God is within us not in xxx/xxxx years old poems or books.
I feel all members must IGNORE to a non Ismaili at ignorant or common sense level quoting ayats of the holy book.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
kmaherali wrote:
...those parts which are relevant for us...


Please tell us what are those parts?].


The Imam tells us: "I would like you to go on improving your knowledge and your understanding of the Dua and of those parts of the Quran e Sharif which are important to us in our everyday lives in our understanding of our faith."

So the question is what parts would be important in our everyday lives and in our understanding of our faith?

Frist I would say the verses that the Imam himself quotes.

Second I would say that those verses which emphasize morality and ethics are important.

Then those verse which accord with the exposition of Islam given by MSMS in his Memoirs.

Those verses which are in accordance with the Tafsir given in our Ginans, Qasidas and the work of our Dais.

Verses quoted in Dua, Namaz, Ziyarat Mayat and other prescribed prayers.
tret wrote:

It's very dangerous to take Imam's farmaan out of context and present half-truth.

In my previous post I explained why this statement was not out of context. If you think it is please explain why.
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sameernoorani5



Joined: 26 Jul 2015
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ismaili103 wrote:
Quote:
you equated Rama as Ali and now you wrote Rasul can be interpreted as Sri Kirishna.


You cannot equate them because we can only equate two different beings with each other, but here Ali and Ram both are one entity, they both are Imam of the time and both have the one Noor e Imamat/ Noor e Ali/Noor e Khuda.

Imam in his memoirs said that, Krishna was the divinely inspired messenger which means Krishna was the Imam aswell as the Prophet at the same time, just like Hazir Imam is Imam and Pir both at the same time.

If you are an Ismaili and think Islam is only 1400 years old then there is no difference between you and other 71 sect of Islam.



Yes, Islam being a natural and universal Deen is from very beginning blessed by Allah. Allah first created noor i Muhammadi and noor i Ali.
You quote Memoirs," Krishna was a divinely inspired messenger". So Krishan
was a messenger and not Allah.
In 1951, at Karachi Ismailia Association gathering MSMS said," HARI KO ALI KARDO AUR DAS AVTAR CHHORR DO".
Also MSMS said in farman," HINDU NI WATTU ILM MA PARHO CHHO TEY WAJIB NATHI".
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sameernoorani5



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ismaili103 wrote:
Quote:
Do you know the History and the origin of the word Allah? What does it mean? Think about the etymology of the word - the History...


Shams bhai I am sure he doesn't know the history of word Allah, let me know him.

Word Allah is derived from "Al Illah" which was used by Pagans before Islam. Al Illah was the name of the most powerfull and greatest Idol of the Kaaba, Al Illah was nothing but big sized idol, and after Islam muslims adopted that name.



Shams Bhai ko kia takleef dena; KUCHH HUM SEY KAHA HOTA, KUCHH HUM SEY SUNA HOTA!
The word Allah with different variations is and was available in Semitic languages including Hebrew and Aramaic like ELAH, ELAHA, ALAHA, and in Hebrew ELOHIM. The Arab pagans used the word Al Illah means deity or god. They did worshiped an idol but believed in concept of a creator. Christians also used the WORD AL ILLAH OR ALLAH at that time and still Arab Christians are using the word ALLAH. This shows the word Allah was in use before Arabs.
As you wrote word Allah was used by Arab pagans and adopted by Muslims,
let me ask you this question, if you are an Ismaili you have to say Du'a 3 times a day, just count how many times you are using the word ALLAH in Du'a. Du'a is given by Imam, do you think Imam is asking us to worship an Arab IDOL. The word Allah is used in ginans also many times, what you have to say about that, did pirs forced us to pray to IDOL GOD.
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sameernoorani5



Joined: 26 Jul 2015
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:
sameernoorani5 wrote:
kmaherali wrote:
sameernoorani5 wrote:
By quoting Imam's farman you made it easier, Imam used the words," Parts of the Quran, you should be able to explain the esoteric meaning of those parts". It means parts of Quran have esoteric meaning and not whole Quran is allegorical..
By mentioning 'parts of the Qur'an' MHI implies that we should only study parts that are relevant for us and not the entire Qur'an:

"I would like you to go on improving your knowledge and your understanding of the Dua and of those parts of the Quran e Sharif which are important to us in our everyday lives in our understanding of our faith."(Bombay, Nov 9, 1967)

Otherwise everything that is written has a batini meaning.

"Esoteric means that what is written is there, but its meaning is not there to everyone."
sameernoorani5 wrote:

For simplicity I mentioned phrases from D'ua, You did not answer for BISMILLAH, what will be ta'weel for ATI'ULLAH WA ATI'URRASUL. Every Ismaili know ULLIL AMR means Imam.
The words ALLHUMA, ALI AND BIHAQQI are Quranic words.
RABBNAGHFIR LAN ZUNUBANA are used in surah AAL E IMRAN, AYAT # 147.
Let me ask you TA'WEEL of few more;
ALHAMDU LILLAHI.
IYYAKANA A'BUDU WA IYYAKANA NASTA'EEN.
LA TAKHUNULLAHA WARASUL.
ALLAHUSAMAD.

Of course you must understand that words by themselves are not meaningful unless they are part of a sentence. This notwithstanding every word in Arabic can have multiple meanings. Qur'an being a universal message was revealed to people of all faiths.

Hence BISMILLAH can be interpreted as in the name of Jesus, Krishna etc.

ATTIULLAH can be interpreted as o'obey krishna or budha'

Rasul can be interpreted as Sri Raam.

Therefore all words can be intepreted differently.



Ismailis believe in 'HADITH E SAQLAIN'. Imam and Quran will stay till dooms day. The parts of Quran farman has been taken out of context. Imam made this farman during religious gathering of RC students and Association. In that gathering there was some recitation of Quranic ayats and surahs. Imam pointed out to those recitation as saying parts of the Quran and asked some questions.
Did Hazar Imam ever said in his farmans that my followers believe only in some parts of Quran and rest of Quran is not relevant or of no use?
Why in Toronto Museum Imam has kept 200+ obsolete copies of complete hand written Quran from Fatimid era on display. Are these just parts of Quran kept on display?
In Preamble Imam has not used the words 'parts of Quran'.
Not only sentences but hundreds of phrases and individual words have deep inner meaning and ta'weel, like Noor, Amr, ArRuh, Ilm, Iqra', Din, all attribute names of Allah. These and other individual words are important in Ismaili Ta'limaat. Imam himself has used the single words or Quran, like
KOUKAB, ZAITUN, YOUM U DIN.
There is no mention of Rama, Krishna, or Hari in Quran, the debate is on Quran and not on Hindu literature. In one of your postings, you equated Rama as Ali and now you wrote Rasul can be interpreted as Sri Kirishna.
Bismillah can not be used for Christ or Rama; means you are equating Allah with Christ! In our Du'a there is no mention of Rama or Christ and Du'a is given by Imam. This kind of interpretation will derail youths from our Tariqa.
Youths are asking serious questions which so far are not on this forum.


In my opinion Sameer - you are being somewhat myopic and colonial in your views.
Here are some questions -

Do you know the History and the origin of the word Allah? What does it mean? Think about the etymology of the word - the History...

Are you aware that when Middle Eastern Christians use the word Allah when they pray and refer to God the Father?...(ISIS recently issued a fatwa telling them not to do that anymore)

Remember the Quran has to be read in a contextual setting and that is one of the Arabic culture. Islam is universal - beyond a culture.

Islam has been there from before creation and will be there after creation. Islam didn't start on the 23rd of Ramadhan.

Shams



Oh boy, Sameer ki pittai ho gai, Sameer you need glasses you are myopic!!
Yes sir, Islam is a natural and universal religion blessed by Allah and before that He created noor i Muhammadi and noor i Ali.
Etymologically the word Allah has cognates in Semitic languages and is used in variations having meaning of God in Abrahamic religions like, Elah in Aaramaic and Elohim in Hebrew. The Arab pagans used the word Al ilah centuries before Islam in Arabia. Arab Christians were using the word Allah as a creator before Islam. Quran introduced creator of universe as Allah explained by Prophet Muhammad.
You are right Arab Christian still are using the word Allah and also Bismillah.
They use Allah al ab (God the father), Allah al ibn (God the son), Allah al Ruh al Quds(God the holy spirit). Not only ISIS but in west Malaishia and in some parts of Indonisia by law non Muslim can not recite the word Allah. same problem is in Pakistan where Qadiyanis are not allowed to recite name of Allah or Prophet Muhammad. ( khoja Ismailis were narrowly escaped).
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sameernoorani5



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
sameernoorani5 wrote:

Ismailis believe in 'HADITH E SAQLAIN'. Imam and Quran will stay till dooms day. .
There was no compiled Qur'an when the Prophet made the statement. So which book was he referring to. It was NOT the one compiled by Uthman. We also know that Uthman compiled the Qur'an from variant existing versions. So the Uthmanic Qur'an is corrupt, hence the whole Qur'an is not important for us, only parts as indicated by the Imam.
sameernoorani5 wrote:

The parts of Quran farman has been taken out of context. Imam made this farman during religious gathering of RC students and Association. In that gathering there was some recitation of Quranic ayats and surahs. Imam pointed out to those recitation as saying parts of the Quran and asked some questions..


That is not true. No Quranic Ayats were recited . Only Dua was recited. So he was not referrring to any recited verses but was making a general statement about what should be studied.

Below is the Farman from the beginning:

My beloved spiritual children,

I give first of all to all My spiritual children present here, each one of you individually, My warmest, My most affectionate and My most loving blessings. Khanavadan, Khanavadan.

My beloved spiritual children,

I have been very happy to hear this morning those spiritual children who came here close to Me to recite Dua and to recite the meaning of the Dua. However, I am not going to accept from the teachers of the religious night schools, simply to listen to those spiritual children who are the best in the religious night schools. I would like any spiritual child who is here present, who attends religious night school, to answer to Me what is the meaning of Malikin naas. You know the Sura which says Kul A 'uzu bir Rabin naas,Elahin naas. What does Malikin naas mean? Which is the spiritual child here who can tell Me the meaning of Malikin naas?

(One spiritual child gave the meaning of "Malikin naas Master of the People The Imam "; Hazar Imam was very pleased )

Good, very good. My beloved spiritual children, I will go further. In the same Sura you have Kul A'uzu bir Rabin naas, Malikin naas, Elahin naas, Min shar ril vasaasil Khannas. What does the word Vasvaas mean. What is the meaning of the word Vasvaas. It is important to know the meaning.

(A spiritual child answered in Gujrati 'Vasvasaa")

Good, very good. My beloved spiritual children, I am very happy to see that I can ask you what are difficult questions and there is always someone present who knows the answer. This is very, very good. I will ask you one more question. What is the meaning of Yaum id din? I want someone here to tell Me, what is the meaning of Yaum id din.

(A spiritual child answered, "The day of Judgement")

My beloved spiritual children,

I was happy to see that your knowledge since I was last here and your understanding of both the Dua and other Suras of the Quran e Sharif is much better than when I was last here, much, much better. I would like you to go on improving your knowledge and your understanding of the Dua and of those parts of the Quran e Sharif which are important to us in our everyday lives in our understanding of our faith.
sameernoorani5 wrote:

Did Hazar Imam ever said in his farmans that my followers believe only in some parts of Quran and rest of Quran is not relevant or of no use?
Why in Toronto Museum Imam has kept 200+ obsolete copies of complete hand written Quran from Fatimid era on display. Are these just parts of Quran kept on display?
In Preamble Imam has not used the words 'parts of Quran'..

From the Farman I have quoted above it is clear that the Imam wants us to study those parts which are relevant for us. You have to use your intellect also to determine whether the rest of the Qur'an is important or not. We know that MSMS and Pir Shahbuddin has said that the Qur'an is corrupt so just be fully aware of it.
What is displayed in the museum is for the world and not for the Jamat only. In the constitution it is referred to the Qur'an revealed to the Prophet and NOT the Uthmanic Qur'an. And the constitution is a statement made to the general public, not specifically to the Jamat.
sameernoorani5 wrote:

Not only sentences but hundreds of phrases and individual words have deep inner meaning and ta'weel, like Noor, Amr, ArRuh, Ilm, Iqra', Din, all attribute names of Allah. These and other individual words are important in Ismaili Ta'limaat. Imam himself has used the single words or Quran, like
KOUKAB, ZAITUN, YOUM U DIN. .

Well if there are parts of the Qur'an that are of relevance, then we must of course study them as per Farman. But there are also other parts which may not have relevance to us.
sameernoorani5 wrote:

There is no mention of Rama, Krishna, or Hari in Quran, the debate is on Quran and not on Hindu literature. In one of your postings, you equated Rama as Ali and now you wrote Rasul can be interpreted as Sri Kirishna.
Bismillah can not be used for Christ or Rama; means you are equating Allah with Christ! In our Du'a there is no mention of Rama or Christ and Du'a is given by Imam. This kind of interpretation will derail youths from our Tariqa.
Youths are asking serious questions which so far are not on this forum.
The debate was whether the Qur'an was allegorical or literal so I said that it can be interpreted according to the person's beliefs. The Qur'an was revealed for all faiths. So if a Hindu reads it, he may interpret it according to his faith. It is open to all interpretations not just Ismaili interpretation.
Of course we Ismailis have our own interpretation and we must stick to it. So we can tell our youths to stick to it and not to worry what others may interpret it. The issue of derailment does not arise!



I give you credit for being a good manipulator of twisting the meanings and statements in your favor. I understand your dual crisscross intellectual approach. For example;
This is said by Imam and this is by pir.
This is for public and this is for jamait.
This is in interview and this is in speech.
This is from Quran and this is from ginan (of choice ).
This is from memoirs and this is from magazine.
This transcription is from TV and this is from seminar.
This is zahir and this is Batin.
This is ta'wil and this is Tanzil.
This is esoteric and this is exoteric.
This is pluralism and this individualism.
This is a good technique, good approach and good art, compliments.

In the life time of Prophet Muhammad Mowla Ali had completed writing Quran according to Shia traditions. A person like Mowla Ali should not had tolerated any corruption in Quran. When he had fought battles like Jamal, Siffin and Nahrawn should had khuruj against corruption of Quran. But he did not. Did he compromised with the situation, where as Prophet said," HAQQ IS WITH ALI AND ALI IS WITH HAQQ". Haqq is always Haqq can not be corrupted. Also my argument is that Mowla Ali during his tenure as Caliph
did nothing and if there were any mistakes he should have corrected them.
As a Imam as a Caliph that was his responsibility. If there are some parts missing those are in the house of Imamat , why to worry!
When Imam spent millions of dollars on museum and kept obsolete copies of complete Quran there should have kept a parts of Quran for his spiritual chidren in a corner on shelf so that they should not have been fighting on this matter.
Past two decades may be more I have seen some missionaries, some scholars, some top leadership have taken this subject of 'parts of Quran'. They had and they have and they are trying to keep the jamaits away from Quranic teachings.This is a strong lobby, that's why Quran is not even introduced in RCs. They think the youth will start asking harsh questions for which they do not have answers.
Did Imam ever asked the ITREB, or some panel, or IIS or some top missionaries to prepare parts of Quran book for Ismailis? What you think as a scholar or what in your opinion are the parts of Quran appropriate for Ismailis?
Pir Sadruddin wrote (kitabat) of Quran, did he wrote only parts of Quran or complete Quran?
Did pir Sadruddin wrote," pir Sadardin yara parhe parts of Quran!".
MSMS said, pir Sadruddin explained tafseer of Quran in ginans, he never mentioned tafseer of parts of Quran. I believe my Imam mentioned to youth in that gathering to study parts of Quran included in RC curriculim, because at that time surah Naas, Falak, Ikhlas and some ayats on Imamat and ethics were included in Rc courses and Imam pointed out to those, because parts of Quran type of farman is not said by our previous Imams from Mowla Ali to MSMS and I believe HI did not meant that.
No doubt Quran is a universal message as Imam mentioned, is this message in parts?
Hindus and Christians do not believe in Quran, why they will compare their deities with Allah, they are talking and writing against Allah and Islam! They think their deities are superior than Allah.
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