www.ismaili.net

sameernoorani5 wrote: Man is a thinking machine, does this applies to God?

God's thinking is of a different order. MSMS in his Memoirs says:

"There is a fundamental difference between the Jewish idea of creation and that of Islam. The creation according to Islam is not a unique act in a given time but a perpetual and constant event; and God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought. Outside His will, outside His thought, all is nothing, even the things which seem to us absolutely self-evident such as space and time. Allah alone wishes: the Universe exists; and all manifestations are as a witness of the Divine will."

kmaherali wrote:

sameernoorani5 wrote: Man is a thinking machine, does this applies to God?

God's thinking is of a different order. MSMS in his Memoirs says:

"There is a fundamental difference between the Jewish idea of creation and that of Islam. The creation according to Islam is not a unique act in a given time but a perpetual and constant event; and God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought. Outside His will, outside His thought, all is nothing, even the things which seem to us absolutely self-evident such as space and time. Allah alone wishes: the Universe exists; and all manifestations are as a witness of the Divine will."

MSMS wrote in Memoirs," His will and His thought", therefore it is clear that God thinks, He plans and He implements His will, now God created Adam in His image and bestowed on him the true knowledge and thinking power. Therefore conclusion is, like man God is also a thinking entity.

Ya Ali madad.points in 3 parts.
1.I am amused to see a extract of non ruhani ginan Of a Pir,xxx years old with data of million year old. Good speed in going deep back.I feel this time spent is between time idled,something between time wasted and invested. In words of Imam SMS ' Shu faydo thase ?.
God bless all those going into it.
2).it my early posting of Kalima.I mentioned that evolution of life and process of Spirituality start from nothingness.
Kalima does not begin with the name of God but with the word Lah.there is full stop after that world may agree later.LAH means nothingness. So the cardinal names n status coming in the kalima comes after that word.It is better left for one with baatin know to express the cosmology, creation and evolution as it could sound contradicting if observed from Zahiri reading and analysis.
3.)the holy book firstly affirm God expressing his quality thinking.Human thinking ability differentiates human and animal
God/ALI/Imam is off course thinking,living,smiling and glowing entity.

I am amused to see a extract of non ruhani ginan Of a Pir,xxx years old with data of million year old.

What do you mean by quoting ginans as a non Ruhani ginans? It is not hidden that you have haters towards ginans, pirs and alwaez but but saying ginans as a non Ruhani ginans! you are crossing the boundary again, don't forget your account in a verge to ban!!

Same Pir, same ginan but two different versions on creation of universe!

EJI AAD RUPEY NOORAJ KHALQIYA, TENI BHARAM LEELA UPAIE
AAPO I AAPEY GUR BHARMA SIJIYA, TIN SIREY DEENA BHARAIE


EJI EEK QUDRAT MEREY SAHEB JI KI DEKHO
PHENN THAKI EEK INDD UPPAI
INDD PHORI CHOUD BHAMAN RACHAVIYA
SABB JUGG DHANDEY LAAYA

Pir Sadruddin has used two terminologies in creation of universe. NOOR and PHEEN. What is connection in between these two terms. Are they same?

Mr. Mazhar,
Changing the user IDs does not mean you can hide your shelf!!
Brother Admin, Kbhai and my shelf explained it very well the topics of creation in my opinion there is nothing controversies in above two ginanic verses at all! its all depends the some ones meaning!
You must know that there are many thinking and believes on creation by different scholars and do not forget!! that there are many quranic ayas which are telling controversial !!on same topic!!!!

sameernoorani5 wrote:Same Pir, same ginan but two different versions on creation of universe!

EJI AAD RUPEY NOORAJ KHALQIYA, TENI BHARAM LEELA UPAIE
AAPO I AAPEY GUR BHARMA SIJIYA, TIN SIREY DEENA BHARAIE


EJI EEK QUDRAT MEREY SAHEB JI KI DEKHO
PHENN THAKI EEK INDD UPPAI
INDD PHORI CHOUD BHAMAN RACHAVIYA
SABB JUGG DHANDEY LAAYA

Pir Sadruddin has used two terminologies in creation of universe. NOOR and PHEEN. What is connection in between these two terms. Are they same?

Interesting observation!
According to modern physcis , light has both particle-like and wave-like properties. In some situations light behaves as if it were composed of waves, whereas in other cases, it behaves as if it was composed of discrete particles - photons. This is the paradox that the scientists are still grappling with today.

The pheen is fluff stuff. It is wavelike in the sense that it is coiled thread and it is particle-like in the sense that it is composed of separate threads.

Hence just as light has both wave-like and particle-like properties and so does pheen, they can be considered as the same.

kmaherali wrote:[According to modern physcis , light has both particle-like and wave-like properties. In some situations light behaves as if it were composed of waves, whereas in other cases, it behaves as if it was composed of discrete particles - photons. This is the paradox that the scientists are still grappling with today.

The pheen is fluff stuff. It is wavelike in the sense that it is coiled thread and it is particle-like in the sense that it is composed of separate threads.

Hence just as light has both wave-like and particle-like properties and so does pheen, they can be considered as the same.

For demonstration of this phenomenum, watch the video below.

Laozi and Quantum Physics – Shantena Augusto Sabbadini

VIDEO

Theoretical Physicist Sabbadini presents the quandary of Quantum Mechanics, and draws illumination from Tao Te Ching. Ancient and primitive cultures conceived the whole cosmos as alive and sentient. The mainstream current of our culture has moved towards an ever greater separation of matter and mind and today’s dominant scientific world view is based on an essentially materialistic representation of reality, in which consciousness is considered an epiphenomenon of purely material process. Yet it can be argued that the obstinate persistence of the so called measurement problem in quantum physics is a symptom pointing to the need to radically rethink the way in which we represent reality. This talk proposes an understanding of the quantum measurement process in which the embodied nature of the observer plays an essential role. And it will show an amazing congruence between this world view and the cosmology outlined in the first chapter of Laozi’s Daodejing. Dr. Sabbadini spoke at SAND15 Italy - See more at:

http://www.scienceandnonduality.com/lao ... sabbadini/

The Pir has resolved the paradox by calling light, pheen!

nuseri wrote:Ya Ali madad.points in 3 parts.
1.I am amused to see a extract of non ruhani ginan Of a Pir,xxx years old with data of million year old. Good speed in going deep back.I feel this time spent is between time idled,something between time wasted and invested. In words of Imam SMS ' Shu faydo thase ?.
God bless all those going into it.

Actually the Pir had resolved the particle/wave paradox of light ssix centuries ago by calling light pheen! The the Ginans are well ahead of their times!

Kalima does not begin with the name of God but with the word Lah.there is full stop after that world

Can you quote which Sura and says has full stop after Laa.

Post Arebic script please

agakhani wrote:Mr. Mazhar,
Changing the user IDs does not mean you can hide your shelf!!
Brother Admin, Kbhai and my shelf explained it very well the topics of creation in my opinion there is nothing controversies in above two ginanic verses at all! its all depends the some ones meaning!
You must know that there are many thinking and believes on creation by different scholars and do not forget!! that there are many quranic ayas which are telling controversial !!on same topic!!!!

Mr. Ashraf Momin,
In one of your postings you claimed to be Ph.D in Gujrati literature and ginans. Being as a scholar it is expected from you to shed more light on the relation Noor and Pheen. Your assertion is that both are same. Let me ask you;
NOOREY TEY KHAAK NIPAYAJI.
Are Noor and khaak same!?

kmaherali wrote:

sameernoorani5 wrote:Same Pir, same ginan but two different versions on creation of universe!

EJI AAD RUPEY NOORAJ KHALQIYA, TENI BHARAM LEELA UPAIE
AAPO I AAPEY GUR BHARMA SIJIYA, TIN SIREY DEENA BHARAIE


EJI EEK QUDRAT MEREY SAHEB JI KI DEKHO
PHENN THAKI EEK INDD UPPAI
INDD PHORI CHOUD BHAMAN RACHAVIYA
SABB JUGG DHANDEY LAAYA

Pir Sadruddin has used two terminologies in creation of universe. NOOR and PHEEN. What is connection in between these two terms. Are they same?

Interesting observation!
According to modern physcis , light has both particle-like and wave-like properties. In some situations light behaves as if it were composed of waves, whereas in other cases, it behaves as if it was composed of discrete particles - photons. This is the paradox that the scientists are still grappling with today.

The pheen is fluff stuff. It is wavelike in the sense that it is coiled thread and it is particle-like in the sense that it is composed of separate threads.

Hence just as light has both wave-like and particle-like properties and so does pheen, they can be considered as the same.

Your assertion is that Noor and Pheen are same, that both have same properties. So far on this forum it not clearly defined, " what is Noor or what is its real definition". I do not equate Noor with light. The word light is used by our Imams for explaining. According to you Pheen is fluff stuff, it means Noor is also fluffy. Modern scientists are still not clear on the particle like or wave like properties of light. I think EDISON should be called prophet of light but he never mentioned these properties. What is your opinion about this ginanic stanza;
NOOREY TEY KHAAK NIPAYA JI.
Are Noor and khaak equal? A man is made of khaak,but after death soul goes to universal soul, khaak goes to khaak and garbage goes to garbage. What is the wave length of garbage?

Khaak also means nothingness

sameernoorani5 wrote: Your assertion is that Noor and Pheen are same, that both have same properties. So far on this forum it not clearly defined, " what is Noor or what is its real definition". I do not equate Noor with light. The word light is used by our Imams for explaining.

In his Memoirs MSMS says:

Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, and the lamp is in a glass, the glass is as though it were a glittering star; it is lit from a blessed tree, an Olive neither of east nor of the west, the oil of which would well-nigh give light though no fire touched it,-light upon light;-Allah guides to His light whom He pleases; and Allah strikes out parables for men; and Allah all things doth know.


(CHAPTER XXIV "Light," 35) -SURA NUR

In Arabic the verse states: Allahu nuru samawati wal ardh

Hence according to MSMS the Light is the Nur!

sameernoorani5 wrote: According to you Pheen is fluff stuff, it means Noor is also fluffy. Modern scientists are still not clear on the particle like or wave like properties of light. I think EDISON should be called prophet of light but he never mentioned these properties. What is your opinion about this ginanic stanza;
NOOREY TEY KHAAK NIPAYA JI.
Are Noor and khaak equal? A man is made of khaak,but after death soul goes to universal soul, khaak goes to khaak and garbage goes to garbage. What is the wave length of garbage?

It does not matter what Edison thought. It is well eatblished that light has dual wave/particle properties. Experiments have proven that. I asked you to watch the video showing the experiment. Did you see it?

Yes science today has established that energy can be created by matter through the right circumstances. There is a famous eqaution:

E = mc2; E is the energy - light, m is mass (matter), c is the velocity of light.

Dust eventually becomes light and hence is equal to light.

NOOREY TEY KHAAK NIPAYA JI.

Just like Admin said, Khaak also means nothingness, and nothingness is Dhandhukaar, it means Dhandukaar which is nothingness is also created from light.

In Ginans their are 2 words " Aad and Unaad".

Unaad is the time when there was not even Dhandhukaar, It was the time when Allah seperated Noor of Prophet from himself.

And Aad is the later period when Dhandhukaar which is Black sky created and creation held from the Noor of Prophet.

And there is no proper definition of Noor, we call it Light, but Noor has no definition, yes it is light but divine light.

Just like there is a hadith in which Prophet said that, " Intensity of Fire is 70 times less than Allah's Noor"

Now an illiterate person will burn the 70 matchsticks and say that it is the power of Allah, its nonscence because here we talk about Fire in its full intensity, if we say that Sun has Fire with full intensity, than there are many stars which are billions time larger than sun and they have more fire. So in short we can conclude that " Satan( who is made up of Fire) is 70 times less powerful than Allah's Noor". And Fire is also created by Allah, so we are not even able to understand fire so how can we understand the creater of that Fire

I think in the context of the Ginan it means earth or dust because the verse is dealing with the creation of heavens and earth.

ejee nure te khaak neepaayaa
vann tha(m)bhe rachyo aasmaan jee............................1

Through light the earth was produced. Without pillars the sky was created.
OR
He has created dust(earth) from His light and has created the heavens without pillars.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3955

Kbhai,

"ejee nure te khaak neepaayaa"

I think in above ginanic verses the real word is "Khalak" not "Khaak".The word Khalak has been used many times for creation in our ginanic literature, Khalak, Khlakat means the whole universe, kaayanat!
It may be my mistake but nothing to loose to check it again!!

Saamiji e gat tamaari upar tame chit-j dharo,
Saamiji tame khaak maanhe thi jiv paydaa karo 79

[Das Avatar Seyed Imam Shah)

Admin wrote:Khaak also means nothingness

Poetically right but practically wrong.

HUM KHAAK HO JAINGEY TUM KO KHABAR HONEY TUK.

Admin wrote:Saamiji e gat tamaari upar tame chit-j dharo,
Saamiji tame khaak maanhe thi jiv paydaa karo 79

[Das Avatar Seyed Imam Shah)

Gulshan Khaki in her thesis has given the following meaning of above part.

LORD HAVE CARE FOR YOUR COMMUNITY
LORD YOU CREATE BEINGS OUT OF EARTH.
It is interesting to note that she adopted the word KHAKI for her self.

Khakee was her family name. But what a coincidence

kmaherali wrote:

sameernoorani5 wrote: Your assertion is that Noor and Pheen are same, that both have same properties. So far on this forum it not clearly defined, " what is Noor or what is its real definition". I do not equate Noor with light. The word light is used by our Imams for explaining.

In his Memoirs MSMS says:

Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, and the lamp is in a glass, the glass is as though it were a glittering star; it is lit from a blessed tree, an Olive neither of east nor of the west, the oil of which would well-nigh give light though no fire touched it,-light upon light;-Allah guides to His light whom He pleases; and Allah strikes out parables for men; and Allah all things doth know.


(CHAPTER XXIV "Light," 35) -SURA NUR

In Arabic the verse states: Allahu nuru samawati wal ardh

Hence according to MSMS the Light is the Nur!

sameernoorani5 wrote: According to you Pheen is fluff stuff, it means Noor is also fluffy. Modern scientists are still not clear on the particle like or wave like properties of light. I think EDISON should be called prophet of light but he never mentioned these properties. What is your opinion about this ginanic stanza;
NOOREY TEY KHAAK NIPAYA JI.
Are Noor and khaak equal? A man is made of khaak,but after death soul goes to universal soul, khaak goes to khaak and garbage goes to garbage. What is the wave length of garbage?

It does not matter what Edison thought. It is well eatblished that light has dual wave/particle properties. Experiments have proven that. I asked you to watch the video showing the experiment. Did you see it?

Yes science today has established that energy can be created by matter through the right circumstances. There is a famous eqaution:

E = mc2; E is the energy - light, m is mass (matter), c is the velocity of light.

Dust eventually becomes light and hence is equal to light.

I think you are impressed by the formula; OUM=mc2
I have already mentioned that MSMS had used the word 'light' for explaining.
In Quran Allah has used niche as parable for explaining Noor.
200 years back none of scientists spoke of particle/wave properties. It pop up in the early 20th century. From now 100 years onward some other scientist will come up with other theory. I think God's real originality will not be known to any one except few chosen one, and if they understood will not be able to declare it. It is good to see humans are trying solve this secret out of curiosity.
Quantum mechanics explains the behavior of matter and its interaction with energy on the scale of subatomic particles. But each raw material or finished product leaves residue, experiment is not 100% pure. What about that residue? You wrote," dust eventually becomes light and hence light is equal to light, BUT ;
DUST THOU ART TO DUST RETURNEST
WAS NOT SPOKEN OF THE SOUL.

FALSAFI KO BAHASE MEY KHUDA MILTA NAHI(N)
DORR KO SULJHA RAHA HAI PAR KHUDA MILTA NAHI(N)

To zznoor.Ya Ali madad.
Unfortunately many thing have just not gone right for the Shairati from day one and from the word GO.
Even the first word of half kalima was not written down in right form.It will time to realize. The word in a starting stand alone word but linked to other word that FOLLOWS after and not before it.
I have a question for you.
Why in nursery and primary school level numbers taught starts 12345 in that order.
But when one is in advance science ,physic,computer languages they Have to put ZERO before 1 or 012345......???? WHY WHY WHY.
Because without Zero in forefront no problem can be solved.
One must read book named Power of Zero.
So at ignorance and common sense level one sees 1234....,
But at rational sense and intellectual level.the truth is 0123...
God put world first to make it easy for believer to know the truth from his branded name.
1+0=1 or Ali+lah= Allah.
The whole is in darkness for ignoring to understand simple Shahda and the word IMAME MUBEEN word.
God bless you.( its the same for both of us,we write it differently.)

sameernoorani5 wrote: I think you are impressed by the formula; OUM=mc2
I have already mentioned that MSMS had used the word 'light' for explaining.
In Quran Allah has used niche as parable for explaining Noor.)

It is not a matter of being impressed atom bombs have been manufactured based on it. So it is a formula that works!
It is irrelevant what you mentioned about MSMS and the light, I have shown you that he has translated Noor as Light.

sameernoorani5 wrote: 200 years back none of scientists spoke of particle/wave properties. It pop up in the early 20th century. From now 100 years onward some other scientist will come up with other theory. I think God's real originality will not be known to any one except few chosen one, and if they understood will not be able to declare it. It is good to see humans are trying solve this secret out of curiosity. .)

200 years ago they didn't have the means to prove the theory, today they have proved the theory to hold. Science is in constant flux. New theories will come and will be proven by experiments.

sameernoorani5 wrote: Quantum mechanics explains the behavior of matter and its interaction with energy on the scale of subatomic particles. But each raw material or finished product leaves residue, experiment is not 100% pure. What about that residue? You wrote," dust eventually becomes light and hence light is equal to light, BUT ;
DUST THOU ART TO DUST RETURNEST
WAS NOT SPOKEN OF THE SOUL.

FALSAFI KO BAHASE MEY KHUDA MILTA NAHI(N)
DORR KO SULJHA RAHA HAI PAR KHUDA MILTA NAHI(N)

Isn't all matter ulimately composed of atoms? What is the problem with you?

kmaherali wrote:

sameernoorani5 wrote: I think you are impressed by the formula; OUM=mc2
I have already mentioned that MSMS had used the word 'light' for explaining.
In Quran Allah has used niche as parable for explaining Noor.)

It is not a matter of being impressed atom bombs have been manufactured based on it. So it is a formula that works!
It is irrelevant what you mentioned about MSMS and the light, I have shown you that he has translated Noor as Light.

sameernoorani5 wrote: 200 years back none of scientists spoke of particle/wave properties. It pop up in the early 20th century. From now 100 years onward some other scientist will come up with other theory. I think God's real originality will not be known to any one except few chosen one, and if they understood will not be able to declare it. It is good to see humans are trying solve this secret out of curiosity. .)

200 years ago they didn't have the means to prove the theory, today they have proved the theory to hold. Science is in constant flux. New theories will come and will be proven by experiments.

sameernoorani5 wrote: Quantum mechanics explains the behavior of matter and its interaction with energy on the scale of subatomic particles. But each raw material or finished product leaves residue, experiment is not 100% pure. What about that residue? You wrote," dust eventually becomes light and hence light is equal to light, BUT ;
DUST THOU ART TO DUST RETURNEST
WAS NOT SPOKEN OF THE SOUL.

FALSAFI KO BAHASE MEY KHUDA MILTA NAHI(N)
DORR KO SULJHA RAHA HAI PAR KHUDA MILTA NAHI(N)

Isn't all matter ulimately composed of atoms? What is the problem with you?

For Memoirs once you wrote it is written for public and non Ismailis, obviously MSMS had to explain Noor as light because non muslims do not understand the real meaning the word Noor.
Please refer to the very first farman of MSMS at age of 8 years. He had mentioned the word noor and not light. Again, Shah Karim Hazar Imam in his 13Dec, 1964 farman has mentioned the word Noor. I quote,"------, his Noor has indicated to you where and in which direction you must turn,----".
You wrote," so it is a formula that works ". You are admitting that this formula is used by God as well as devil. Isn't it?
You wrote," science is in constant flux, new theories will come and will be proven", Just wait and see approach, may be 50 years or 100 years!

sameernoorani5 wrote:For Memoirs once you wrote it is written for public and non Ismailis, obviously MSMS had to explain Noor as light because non muslims do not understand the real meaning the word Noor.!

All Muslim translations of the ayat refer to Noor as light! What is Nur according to your understanding? Can you provide with a commentary explaining what the term means to Muslims.

sameernoorani5 wrote: You wrote," so it is a formula that works ". You are admitting that this formula is used by God as well as devil. Isn't it?

Yes like any other technical marvel..

kmaherali wrote:

sameernoorani5 wrote:For Memoirs once you wrote it is written for public and non Ismailis, obviously MSMS had to explain Noor as light because non muslims do not understand the real meaning the word Noor.!

All Muslim translations of the ayat refer to Noor as light! What is Nur according to your understanding? Can you provide with a commentary explaining what the term means to Muslims.

sameernoorani5 wrote: You wrote," so it is a formula that works ". You are admitting that this formula is used by God as well as devil. Isn't it?

Yes like any other technical marvel..

Couple of times I initiated and asked the question,"what is Noor?" but no one seemed ready to discuss it. If Noor is equated with light, let me ask you a question, when I turn off my apartment's lights where did that light go! Noor is permanent, it can not vanish or disappear or finished.
You wrote," yes like any other technical marvel". Fine, so after quantum theory some one has to wait other 100 years for phantom theory!!
KOUN JIYEEGA TERI ZULF KEEY SER HONNEY TAK.

God created an egg, smashed it, and a chicken came out of it. centuries old problem solved that an egg came first followed by a chicken.
Now, again I am confused. When that chicken grew up was that cock or hen? Please solve the problem, thanks.

Light as we know it, is the closest thing we can refer/allegorize to The **Noor**. However, they aren't one and the same.
**Noor** is omnipresent; Light appears to be omnipresent, due to its speed, but it takes light some 8 seconds to reach earth [from the sun].

Noor should be understood in the spritual context, where light is in the physical realm.

Noor can also be interpreted as Imam's guidance.

Egg/checkin question: Let me ask you a question, which you may get your answer.

If egg=baby and checkin=mother, then who came first?

According to Islamic interpretation [and MHI quoted this on serveral occasions] that God has created man from a single soul, and from it, He created its mate and from them scattered multitude of men. Composisiton is creativity and mystry of the [Universal] Soul that gives Form to Matter.

Some time Koowledge (Gnan) is called Noor and some times Isme Azam is called Noor. Some time even Nyaz is called Noor. This of course never refers to the physical world and physical matters.

When for example people say Nyaz is water, they are in the physical world and have degraded the meaning of Nyaz so much as there is no beneft in partaking it. We are Batini, we see the hidden world behind the world of the physical perception. If we were Shariati, that door would have been closed to us for eternity.

So in this context, my understanding is that when we think of Noor as Light, we have to reach to the batin of the concept, not to the zahir.