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kmaherali wrote:

mazharshah wrote: Literature of Qadi Noaman.

Qadi Noman was not the Pir and I did not know that he wrote about the Pirs. Can you provide the reference where he has indicated previous Pirs.

Sir, the word Pir is no where mentioned in fatimid literature. Qadi Noaman was not a Pir. The word Da'is used is Hujjat in place of Pir. Mostly Pirs pro Fatimid period were born in Hijaz, Yemen, or Egypt. Read the Khutbats of
Pir Hasan, Pir Zainul Abdin, or Pir Amir Ahmad, none had claimed there status as Prophet Muhammad. It is only after post Almout period philosophy of Nar and Gur introduced created confusion.

Ya Ali madad.
1).in Fatimid intellect were encouraged. So we have many discoveries n insight.
Qadi was genius n grand jurist, so a book or saying does not become mandate for Ismailia for given higher place than Farman,similarly in repeat of Fatimid era we have many great scholars both Ismaili n non Ismalis writing book under platform of IIS,that publication is NOT ALL A MANDATE for Ismailis.
2) Noor per se has no gender but has many facets n levels between ignorance n spiritual intellect there are 6 between it.a speech,saying can be Noor,a content of holy book can be
perceived as one,glow of inner light,beaming face,etc.for example early morning rays is sun is soothing (jamali) and mid day can be harsh as well(jalali).there can two poem written on it n both could be correct.
Like moon is personified by poets as male as well as female.eg in Hindi film song word Chandra Mama,then in chandni RAAF meet.
3).I assume the title of Syedna could be highest in admin matter of Fatimid as Bori have their rank still from legacy of Fatimid,that their leader being xx number Dai,and revered and
as Syedna.
Pirs is spiritual n a noorani status office/title with NO relation with Admin rank or title.

mazharshah wrote: Sir, the word Pir is no where mentioned in fatimid literature. Qadi Noaman was not a Pir. The word Da'is used is Hujjat in place of Pir. Mostly Pirs pro Fatimid period were born in Hijaz, Yemen, or Egypt. Read the Khutbats of
Pir Hasan, Pir Zainul Abdin, or Pir Amir Ahmad, none had claimed there status as Prophet Muhammad. It is only after post Almout period philosophy of Nar and Gur introduced created confusion.

Do you really think that the Pirs were sent by Imams to India to confuse people?

If there was confusion in our traditions, do you think that they would survive for centuries?Pirs were sent to clarify the truths and establish sound traditions that would survive for generations in the past and into the future.

MSMS made the following Farmans.

"Memorize the ruhani Ginans given by Pir Sadardin and the Farmans of the Imam of the Time. If you read them just as you read newspapers, how will they benefit you? Comprehend each and every line by your heart. Every line of the Ginans and of My Farmans is as good as a thousand of lines."(Farman No.64, Wadhvaarn Camp ,19-10-1903)

"May Murtaza Ali keep your iman secure! Act according to what is prescribed in Ginans."(Farman No.20, Manjevari, 31.12.1893)

Pir Sadardeen tells us in the Ginan: Sab Gat Sami Maro http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23110 :

ejee aal imaam kee peer karee jaanno
jethee bhav saagar tame chhutto ek jeeyo....................15

O momins: Regard the 'Peers' as the progeny of the Imaams.
It is due to the faith in this authority that you will overcome
the difficulties of crossing over the ocean of material existence

ejee pahele dha(n)dhukaar maa(n)he nabee muhammed mustaphaa
sohee guru ja(m)pudeep maa(n)he aayaa ek jeeyo..............20

O momins: In the beginning and in the void,
Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide
(Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.

ismaili103 wrote:Karim bhai, it will be nice if you further elaborate Mazhar of essence and Mazhar of God, and which one is higher and why ?

God is understood in terms of God the Transcendant without attributes, the unknowable and the indescriptible. It is also the dhaat - the Essence or Nirinjan on the one hand; and God the Immanent, with attributes - the Sifat, or the Noor.

The Sifat is ofcourse derived or emanated from the Dhaat.

When we say that the Imam is the Mazhar of the Essence, we are becoming more specific - that there is nothing beyond the Imam. If we only said that he was the Mazhar of God, then it is ambiguous as to whether it is the Dhat or Sifat.

mazharshah wrote: Either you are confused or you are confusing readers. Is it a new philosophy?
'mazhar of essence without attributes'. Quran mentions attributes of Allah. Noor of Ali and Muhammad is same, therefore what ever attributes are of Ali should be same of Muhammad. Mazhar of essence, essence of who? Obviously Allah. You wrote, Ali represents Nirijan, when you say represent of Nirijan means you are talking about two different entities.

It is not a new philosophy. It has been in the Ginans for centuries and it is also per Sura Ikhlas that we recite in the 6th part of Dua which affirms the absolute transcendence of God - God without attributes and unknowable.

As I mentioned before the Imam defined himself as the Mazhar -i-dhat illahi - the Mazhar of the Divine Essence. Being the Mazhar of the Essence, he is aslo the Mazhar of the Noor, hence the Noor of Ali and that of Muhammad or any other Pir is the same.

Of course individualse can elevate themselves to become Mazhar of the Essence, but the Imam is the recognised and the functioning Mazhar in our Tariqah.

Sir, the word Pir is no where mentioned in fatimid literature. Qadi Noaman was not a Pir. The word Da'is used is Hujjat in place of Pir. Mostly Pirs pro Fatimid period were born in Hijaz, Yemen, or Egypt. Read the Khutbats of
Pir Hasan, Pir Zainul Abdin, or Pir Amir Ahmad, none had claimed there status as Prophet Muhammad. It is only after post Almout period philosophy of Nar and Gur introduced created confusion.

There is contradiction in your belief. For you prophet Mohd is true guide and when it comes to Pirs of Subcontinent they created confusion and they gone. Even for you Prophet Mohd was also gone 1400 yrs ago. We are Ismailis and we do not believe in body of Mohammad and Ali, we Believe in Noor manifest in that body. And that Noor of Muhammad is always on earth in PHYSICAL FORM. Isa and Musa were also Muhammad and Abdullah was also Muhammad, and Vaishist vejhistan and vedur vyas were also the same muhammad. and Pir Hassan, Pir Zainul Abdin, Pir Amir Ahmad, Pir nurdin mohammad, Pir Ali Asghar, Pir Sahibuddin , Pir sadardin, Pir aga alishah etc all were same mohmmad.

If you believe that Noor of Ali is present as Hazir Imam then you should have believe that Noor of Muhammad is also present as Pir. Which is Hazir Imam in todays era.

ismaili103 wrote:

Sir, the word Pir is no where mentioned in fatimid literature. Qadi Noaman was not a Pir. The word Da'is used is Hujjat in place of Pir. Mostly Pirs pro Fatimid period were born in Hijaz, Yemen, or Egypt. Read the Khutbats of
Pir Hasan, Pir Zainul Abdin, or Pir Amir Ahmad, none had claimed there status as Prophet Muhammad. It is only after post Almout period philosophy of Nar and Gur introduced created confusion.

There is contradiction in your belief. For you prophet Mohd is true guide and when it comes to Pirs of Subcontinent they created confusion and they gone. Even for you Prophet Mohd was also gone 1400 yrs ago. We are Ismailis and we do not believe in body of Mohammad and Ali, we Believe in Noor manifest in that body. And that Noor of Muhammad is always on earth in PHYSICAL FORM. Isa and Musa were also Muhammad and Abdullah was also Muhammad, and Vaishist vejhistan and vedur vyas were also the same muhammad. and Pir Hassan, Pir Zainul Abdin, Pir Amir Ahmad, Pir nurdin mohammad, Pir Ali Asghar, Pir Sahibuddin , Pir sadardin, Pir aga alishah etc all were same mohmmad.

If you believe that Noor of Ali is present as Hazir Imam then you should have believe that Noor of Muhammad is also present as Pir. Which is Hazir Imam in todays era.

Noor of Allah is in Prophet, Imam, Pir, Da'i, Mukhi, Jamait Bhai, Karim Jivani,
Mazhar Shah and in every human being. Allah's Noor is in every particle of universe. We ismailis believe in theory of emanation and gradation and this comes with level of authority from Allah. Sure, Prophets and Imams authority is higher than every human being, but Pir's authority is not higher than Imam. Same way Mukhi's authority is not higher than a Pir.

According to Ismaili doctrine, can one brother after other become Imam Mustaqqar.

Noor of Allah is in Prophet, Imam, Pir, Da'i, Mukhi, Jamait Bhai, Karim Jivani,
Mazhar Shah and in every human being. Allah's Noor is in every particle of universe. We ismailis believe in theory of emanation and gradation and this comes with level of authority from Allah. Sure, Prophets and Imams authority is higher than every human being, but Pir's authority is not higher than Imam. Same way Mukhi's authority is not higher than a Pir.

I know it and Allah is also in you mr mazhar. Pir already said that Allah is in everything. But for asal ma wasil we need self realization and actualization, than only we can recognize that Noor in us which is higher than everything. But Imam did not need asal ma wasil, Imam is holder of that noor who created you an me who created everything from nothing, Imam is self realized and actualized.

Pir always said that I am servant of Imam, Imams authority is higher than Pir but Pir and Imam both are of same noor which is known gurnar and shahpir, which is said by Prophet Mohd as " mai hussain mai se hu or hussain mujh ma se ha"

mazharshah wrote:According to Ismaili doctrine, can one brother after other become Imam Mustaqqar.

No he cannot according to the statement of MSMS in his will:

"Ever since the time of my ancestor Ali, the first Imam, that is to say over a period of thirteen hundred years, it has always been the tradition of our family that each Imam chooses his successor at his absolute and unfettered discretion from amongst any of his descendants, whether they be sons or remote male issue..."

http://ismaili.net/timeline/1957/19570711will.html

kmaherali wrote:

mazharshah wrote:According to Ismaili doctrine, can one brother after other become Imam Mustaqqar.

No he cannot according to the statement of MSMS in his will:

"Ever since the time of my ancestor Ali, the first Imam, that is to say over a period of thirteen hundred years, it has always been the tradition of our family that each Imam chooses his successor at his absolute and unfettered discretion from amongst any of his descendants, whether they be sons or remote male issue..."

http://ismaili.net/timeline/1957/19570711will.html

Please explain," remote male issue ".

A grand son such as in the case of the transference of the Imamat of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah to Shah Karim, the remote male issue. it could have been the grand child also

Admin wrote:A grand son such as in the case of the transference of the Imamat of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah to Shah Karim, the remote male issue. it could have been the grand child also

You mean great grand son also. A child can be male or feamle.

Is Pindiyaat included in Ahl e Bait?

Pandyat Jawanmardi has the same status as Aql i Qul as it comes our from the Noor of the Imam and it is therefore equated to the Pir.

mazharshah wrote:Is Pindiyaat included in Ahl e Bait?

It is a Farman of the Imam, and only the Imam/Pirs issue Farmans hence it can be considered as the Light of Ahl al-Bayt.

Admin wrote:Pandyat Jawanmardi has the same status as Aql i Qul as it comes our from the Noor of the Imam and it is therefore equated to the Pir.

Your explanation is complicated. How come a book can be considered AQL E KULL?

kmaherali wrote:

mazharshah wrote:Is Pindiyaat included in Ahl e Bait?

It is a Farman of the Imam, and only the Imam/Pirs issue Farmans hence it can be considered as the Light of Ahl al-Bayt.

Ahl e Bait should be in human form and not a book, can we say Quran as a book is from Ahl e Bait?

Ahl e Bait should be in human form and not a book, can we say Quran as a book is from Ahl e Bait?

Pir Pandiyat is a book of Imam Mustaan sir billah Farmans, and Imam give that book the title of Pir ,because that Book contains the guidance for us which a Pir can gave to us by Ginans .

Can I ask you a question, how can Allah manifest as tree to guide Moses. i mean tree is not an organism , tree is thing, if your answer is that Allah can manifest in anything than Allah can also manifest his Prophetic light ( Piratan ) In a book. And if your answer is something else than give me, I have more for you.

Admin wrote:A grand son such as in the case of the transference of the Imamat of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah to Shah Karim, the remote male issue. it could have been the grand child also

" Remote male issue "
According to Webster's dictionary "Remote" means,
1.Not closely connected or related.
2.Far off in place or time.
3.Not near or recent.
4.Out of the way.
5.Maintained or operating from a distance.
Grand son or great great grand son is not considered a remote issue.
Question is, Why MSMS used this phrase? Imam's words are meaningful. Think about other word "issue", what kind of that issue will be, historically is that connected to past or an indicator for future.

ismaili103 wrote:

Ahl e Bait should be in human form and not a book, can we say Quran as a book is from Ahl e Bait?

Pir Pandiyat is a book of Imam Mustaan sir billah Farmans, and Imam give that book the title of Pir ,because that Book contains the guidance for us which a Pir can gave to us by Ginans .

Can I ask you a question, how can Allah manifest as tree to guide Moses. i mean tree is not an organism , tree is thing, if your answer is that Allah can manifest in anything than Allah can also manifest his Prophetic light ( Piratan ) In a book. And if your answer is something else than give me, I have more for you.

Sure, here is my answer. My question was can a book be called Ahl e Bait? or say from Ahl e Bait? First tell me, Was Imam Mustansibillah a pir? According to your assertion then Quran is also Ahl e Bait, which you call fake.
God's voice was coming out of fire and not tree, we can not call fire or tree as ahl e Bait. Allah's noor is in every particle, weather tree, fire, mountain or human being.

mazharshah wrote: " Remote male issue "
According to Webster's dictionary "Remote" means,

I would even say that remote means very far so he is probably speaking of some male issues on other planets, right? Or maybe issue means an important topic or problem so the Will probably refers to some problems on distant galaxies?

As I said previously and no insult intended, your place is not in an intellectual discussion if you think that our Imam is bound by the Webster's dictionary. I have seen so many irrelevant and sick posts from you recently whenever it is not some personal attacks that I really honestly question why you are on this Forum.

This said, I understand that you will reply that you are just going through dictionaries to learn. In that case why not read a dictionary of terms used in legal documents and in Wills?

Sure, here is my answer. My question was can a book be called Ahl e Bait? or say from Ahl e Bait? First tell me, Was Imam Mustansibillah a pir? According to your assertion then Quran is also Ahl e Bait, which you call fake.
God's voice was coming out of fire and not tree, we can not call fire or tree as ahl e Bait. Allah's noor is in every particle, weather tree, fire, mountain or human being.

Allah is Noor and Noor has no shape, body and mouth to talk. That Noor manifest as fish,turtle, tree , fire, human to give guidance.

Imam Mustaansirbillah was not Pir but every Imam either Ali or Hussain or Islam Shah every Imam have Noor of the Allah which has both Noor of Imamat and Piratan, even though Imam give his authority of Piratan to other family member and appoint him or her as Pir doesn't mean Noor of Piratan got separate from Imam.

Nabi Muhammad said " I am from Hussain and Hussain is from me"

To Ismaili103 :
Ya ALI madad.
Please do not mix up Noor as essence as Allah as manifestation of essence.is Mazhar.
Which Ayat say Allah is formless.?ayat defines he has face,hand,ears eyes n sits on throne.
For example sun is sender n holder of sunlight/sunrays.
Hindus still pray to Sun as god not to sunrays.
We do say Ya Noor,ya Noor is dua but address it to ALI ,the bearer of Noor.
Mixing up content of ginans,ayats etc can mix up a opinion of person.
Then you have take 2 different stand for the same word.
If Allah is Noor( he should have started immd with in introduction of ayats.(there is reason to it) then why he himslef takes 5-6 lines of an analogy form by god to define n explain it surah Noor.
Noor is subtle light of divine intellect,and Ali+lah= Allah is the bearer n sender of Noor.
Humans are blessed to receive that,that does not certify one to claim as the Entity, nevertheless status n feeling like him comes to enlightened person like recognized Pirs n dai.
A receiver of sunrays cannot call itself as Sun,who is the bearer n sender of the lighted rays.
A fool may try call itself sun,mazhar from narrow understanding of the word.
For example if you are a spiritual child of your spiritual father,then you cunningly try to relate your biological father ,the correlated word being father,so try to impress upon that your father and Ali are brothers.as one can take name of his father after his name for many records.So the cursed,cunning creature join n assume the name,status,title of his spiritual father.
Treat humans n serpents separately. As you young n blessed Haqiqati.
Keep up tempo of your debate n try to understand little more in depth.You will inshallah even do that in times to come .as an Ismaili a strong vocal haqiqati in a hostile n risky country you are definitely a elevated soul from birth n past lives.
ALI bless you in all your good efforts.

Admin wrote:

mazharshah wrote: " Remote male issue "
According to Webster's dictionary "Remote" means,

I would even say that remote means very far so he is probably speaking of some male issues on other planets, right? Or maybe issue means an important topic or problem so the Will probably refers to some problems on distant galaxies?

As I said previously and no insult intended, your place is not in an intellectual discussion if you think that our Imam is bound by the Webster's dictionary. I have seen so many irrelevant and sick posts from you recently whenever it is not some personal attacks that I really honestly question why you are on this Forum.

This said, I understand that you will reply that you are just going through dictionaries to learn. In that case why not read a dictionary of terms used in legal documents and in Wills?

I did not initiated the ' remote male issue ' question. It was popped up in answer by Kmaherali. I wanted clear understanding but you took me to excursion on other planets. Every English speaking person knows what 'remote' means.

A literary person always consult dictionary weather on google or in book form. I have 6 languages of dictionaries sitting on my writing table ie, English, Urdu, Gujrati, Arabic, Farsi, and Spanish.
In your reply on 'remote male issue', you mentioned grand child which was immediately corrected by Kmaherali otherwise I should have rip you off in debate. I do not ask sick questions, but getting sick or absurd answers from some sick minded participants. Mostly I have used the printed/published or documented material from ITREB or IIS. So far I have avoided using non Ismaili sources otherwise you should have started locking the threads.

Ya Ali Madad.
For the the world Ali+lah=Allah.or like in 1+0=1,take it or leave it.
I embraced it n living in it.
For Ali was God even he chose brand name of Allah in holy book.
In pharmacy, I assume your displayed ignorance in this word in earlier posting.
every branded medicine has a firm n true chemicals composition name called as it's GENERIC name.
In the same way if the holy book is a search all the way,why not search begin with the name of the author. Is it a brand name or a generic name from the world existed.
If the word Allah in verbatim when world came into being.
Each prophet gave a name of God ,so did the last prophet.
Why this brand name is previous holy books before Qur'an?
so one with rational sense can assume there is name n face with absolute intellect behind
This brand name.

With me personally. The world Allah is like Air.If that the brand name,I breathe Ali from it n leave Lah roaming in the Air.
It is like breathing in Oxygen from Air n leave nitrogen n carbon gas outside.
Like akin to SAANS Ki Ibaadat.
BTW in ages old Latin n current Italian language the word Air mean ALI.

kmaherali wrote:

mazharshah wrote:According to Ismaili doctrine, can one brother after other become Imam Mustaqqar.

No he cannot according to the statement of MSMS in his will:

"Ever since the time of my ancestor Ali, the first Imam, that is to say over a period of thirteen hundred years, it has always been the tradition of our family that each Imam chooses his successor at his absolute and unfettered discretion from amongst any of his descendants, whether they be sons or remote male issue..."

http://ismaili.net/timeline/1957/19570711will.html

According to will of MSMS, he used the words," whether they be sons OR remote male issue......"
My question is why MSMS inserted the word 'OR'. Does that mean when son is not born to previous Imam, he can appoint any remote person in relationship to head institution of Imamat. In late 70's waizeen were stopped to quote Rumi's following couplet.

PIDAR NOOR WA PISAR NOOR AST MASHHUR
AZZ EEN FAHUM KUN NOORUN ALA NOOR (RUMI)

Ya Ali Madad.
The same words are used in all royalty n maharaja wills or laws pertaining to succession.
Remote mean no absolute physical connection,far off.
I may be wrong in this.
Like Imam SMS appointed his grandson not his but in lineage,if for any reason if Prince Aly khan would have moved away from Mhi for some reasons along with his sons.
Then grandsons are remote male issues as they were not staying with their grand father.
A male in straight line not staying with father but his mother after divorce.
A male child of daughter can be a remote male issue.
Remember Fatima was daughter was an entity n Ali was not his Son.
Looking at it narrowly can be ignorance but knowing exactly the laws of the country where the word remote male is legally defined or implied of that country need to studied.
I do not have privelage so my opinions is based on my ignorance or understanding.
Remote can be a male member of a family not necessarily staying or being immediate part
of the family.
Recent there was a case of a son of ex chief minister of himachal Pradesh out side wedlock.
The judgement did use some word to a certain n imply his status.
All angles comes under scope of law in case of disputes
A strong water tight will or article of the Constitution cover that aspect.
Please forgive me on my ignorance in this topic,I may be totally or partialy wrong because of limited knowledge on this topic and having no access to laws of Switzerland to read.

mazharshah wrote: "Ever since the time of my ancestor Ali, the first Imam, that is to say over a period of thirteen hundred years, it has always been the tradition of our family that each Imam chooses his successor at his absolute and unfettered discretion from amongst any of his descendants, whether they be sons or remote male issue..."

My question is why MSMS inserted the word 'OR'. Does that mean when son is not born to previous Imam, he can appoint any remote person in relationship to head institution of Imamat. In late 70's waizeen were stopped to quote Rumi's following couplet.

PIDAR NOOR WA PISAR NOOR AST MASHHUR
AZZ EEN FAHUM KUN NOORUN ALA NOOR (RUMI)

Read carefully! You forgot about the word 'descendants'. According to our tradition Imam always bears a son. Light upon Light. There is a verse of Ashaji:

Aal Imam thi Aliji Aviyaa - From the progeny of the Imams, Ali has come....

Imamat has existed since creation and it has continued hereditorily. The notion of Imamat beginning from the Prophet is a zaheri notion, but from the batin Imamat has always existed.

In his Memoirs, MSMS writes:

"Often persecuted and oppressed, the faith of my ancestors was never destroyed; at times it flourished as in the epoch of the Fatimite Khalifs, at times it was obscure and little understood."

Can you provide the meaning of the verse from Rumi you quoted?

kmaherali wrote:

mazharshah wrote: "Ever since the time of my ancestor Ali, the first Imam, that is to say over a period of thirteen hundred years, it has always been the tradition of our family that each Imam chooses his successor at his absolute and unfettered discretion from amongst any of his descendants, whether they be sons or remote male issue..."

My question is why MSMS inserted the word 'OR'. Does that mean when son is not born to previous Imam, he can appoint any remote person in relationship to head institution of Imamat. In late 70's waizeen were stopped to quote Rumi's following couplet.

PIDAR NOOR WA PISAR NOOR AST MASHHUR
AZZ EEN FAHUM KUN NOORUN ALA NOOR (RUMI)

Read carefully! You forgot about the word 'descendants'. According to our tradition Imam always bears a son. Light upon Light. There is a verse of Ashaji:

Aal Imam thi Aliji Aviyaa - From the progeny of the Imams, Ali has come....

Imamat has existed since creation and it has continued hereditorily. The notion of Imamat beginning from the Prophet is a zaheri notion, but from the batin Imamat has always existed.

In his Memoirs, MSMS writes:

"Often persecuted and oppressed, the faith of my ancestors was never destroyed; at times it flourished as in the epoch of the Fatimite Khalifs, at times it was obscure and little understood."

Can you provide the meaning of the verse from Rumi you quoted?

MSMS's statement is very important. His statement should have stopped at
'DESCENDANTS', but by adding the words ' whether they be sons OR remote male issue...' is confusing. The meaning of remote as you know is 'far off' or
' not closely connected or closely related'. Descendants also include sons/daughter of brothers, sisters and cousins as well.
BTY you know well the meaning of Rumi's couplet; You are a well informed person, Why in late 70's Waizeen were stopped to mention this Rumi's couplet in waizes?