Mind Altering Substances

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mica
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:53 am

Mind Altering Substances

Post by mica »

In today’s world, many individuals use mind altering substances. Society at large refers to them as “drugs.” However there are many well educated people who would argue that such substances have positive effects. These substances are also referred to as mind enhancers, hallucinogens, psychedelics, and so forth. LSD, mescaline, mushrooms, marijuana are some of the drugs I’m referring to.

I have read about some of these drugs and the experiences people have under the influence. Numerous individuals give accounts of their supernatural/spiritual experience. Some even claim to have experienced God. Individuals even use these to foster their search for the truth. What intrigues me about some of this is that certain substances are found naturally on earth. Were they meant to serve a special purpose?

Could some of these substances have any benefits? Could these potent substances actually enhance the human being’s understanding of the truth (God, reality, the human condition), and the reason for the strict rejection of these substances is due to the inability of the majority of society to properly harness such powerful “drugs” and their lack of knowledge about the true nature of these substances? What is the Ismaili perspective on this? Does the Quran make any reference to this? Have any Peers or Imams mentioned any of this?


If you would like to further read about any of these drugs and the experiences people have had: http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/psychoactives.shtml
Alim_virani
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 12:07 am

My opinion and an explanation of it

Post by Alim_virani »

Yam,

I find it interesting that you brought up this topic since I just recently discussed it with a friend of mine who is a psychedelic. I was telling him of my distain for alcohol and all other neurointoxicants. He began to agree with me saying that alcohol “was one the worst human inventions” and that it causes massive destruction but he argued that other drugs, in particular mescaline, can be of great benefit. We discussed the esoteric nature of both our faiths and agreed in such a faith one must alter ones perception/paradigm/conceptual scheme/way of looking at things/state of mind. The obstacle to is that your state of mind is constantly manipulated by society (consumerism, egocentrism, ext…) He said that when he took mescaline (and other drugs) he began to see things differently, that he was able to escape “the rigid structure” that society placed on his state of mind. For more on this I suggest you read “The Doors of Perception” by Aldous Huxley.

You may have noticed that we Ismailis have something very similar to this: Transcendental meditation (Bandgi). We have basically the same goals in bandgi as does the psychedelic when taking drugs. To him taking psychedelic drugs is a form of spiritual meditation and indeed he treats it like it. He never takes theses drugs for recreational use, and even says that people who do harm themselves. He only takes them with a supervisor present, and focus on transcending mind frames rather than any pleasure that arises from the drugs.

I have complete respect for the psychedelic’s forms of prayer/mediation and I agree that it is personal experience of each individual that should decide what forms of prayer/mediation are right for that individual. That being said there are the qualms I have with it: My friend admitted that once the drugs wore off, his new perceptions/state of mind did as well, for the most part. He argued thought that he “kept one foot in the door” of this state of mind, and that what he used the drugs for was to help him tear down the old one and help guide him to build a new one. With bangi, once you stop, you don’t lose any progress you made. Instead you incorporate into you mind the experiences you have in bandgi. Imagine both the psychedelic and the Ismaili going to the same place. The Ismaili walks there, while the psychedelic flies over, getting glimpses of the place as he flies by.

What I’m trying to say is essentially this: Ismailis, IN MY INTERPRETATION OF THE FAITH, don’t think that they need any outside assistance to understanding/enlightenment. We think of taking drugs as superfluous, in the end you have to do your own “ground work”. It is the act of the psychedelic contemplating (meditation) while taking the drugs that is important, not the actual drug taking. The drugs may give the psychedelic some magnificent perceptions, but that is unimportant, since it quickly becomes an afterimage.

The important thing that use should take away from this is that psychedelics, the serious ones, do not support, and in fact condemn recreational use of drugs. I do not think that the Koran (or another source) ever really meant (had in mind) anything besides neurointoxicants for recreational use.
mica
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:53 am

Post by mica »

Mowla Ali Madad,

Thank you for your elaborate response. I agree with you on the fact that psychedelics disapprove of recreational use of drugs, and that this is an important point to note. I believe Ismailis and psychedelics are on the same mission, but each taking a different path, and it is obvious that the Ismailis feel that they don’t “need any outside assistance to understanding/enlightenment.”

To make sure I understood you correctly, when you use the term neurointoxicants, you are referring to any type of drug (mescaline, alcohol…), correct? Also, when you state “I do not think that the Koran (or another source) ever really meant (had in mind) anything besides neurointoxicants for recreational use", do you mean to say that the Koran (or another source) never touched on the subject of the use of psychedelic drugs for beneficial purposes?

Another argument that could me made is that the Ismaili faith is against the psychedelic practice because this would be wandering away from siratul mustakim (a real narrow path to our original abode).
Alim_virani
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 12:07 am

Post by Alim_virani »

Yam,


1) The term “Drug” under its proper definition includes aspirin, coffee as well as neurointoxicants. Neurointoxicants only include drugs that have a mind altering affect like alcohol, mescaline and LSD.

2+3) When studying the Koran, it is imperative that one takes under consideration the cultural context that the revelation was received. The Koran mentions this topic twice:

O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed. Satan seeketh only to cast among you enmity and hatred by means of strong drink and games of chance, and to turn you from remembrance of Allah and from (His) worship. Will ye then have done? 5.90-91

They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder. 2.219

Notice that each time intoxicants are mentioned with games of chance, the two seem linked in the Koran. The revelation was meant to deal with the fact that drinking and gambling made one forgetful of god, and the righteous way of doing things. This is what you were talking about with siratu'l-mustaqim, when you’re drunk you tend to lose that state of mind which is reflective of God/the true way. Shabu’d Din Sha Husayni once wrote “Amongst [the versus in the Coran] is one in which God says: "He acquireth the peace of mind who refineth his own nature". And verily this is so, for there is no matter of greater importance than to purify one's own self. Only by this may one hope to progress along the path of rectitude, because there is no greater obstacle against success in this direction than one's own lower instincts, which obstruct one's fulfillment of the dictates of religious philosophy and the commandments of the Divine religion. It is only when you bring this self under control, carefully watching its movements, lest it overpowers you unaware, and tempts you to take a false step, that you are able to advance slowly in the life of true virtue.” He goes to say “Remember, therefore, friends, that one must keep one's self under the keenest surveillance, so as not to let it have one single moment of opportunity to escape from control, and force its will upon one. If this is not done, it may take one out of the way, overpower one's will, raising its head from the Hell, and thus prevent one from attaining the position of communion (maqami qurb) with God. It will not permit one to attain all the good which the righteous can attain. For this reason one has to make effort in order to find the proper way. [6] It is said in the Coran (IX, 19): "Those who fight in the way of God, We guide them on Our way". It is this way which is the siratu'l-mustaqim.” Drinking prevents you from being spiritual/righteous at the time of you intoxication. Considering this, the Koran’s objection to alcohol can be furthered to all nerointoxiacants, since they all do the same thing.

Of course, if a person takes nerointoxiacants for the express purpose of contemplation of god, as the psychedelics do, then the above really does not apply to that person. The Koran never does touch on the subject of taking drugs as a form of prayer/mediation, since no one at the time practiced such a thing. That is not to say that my earlier objections to the psychedelics practices do not stand.

I hope I have answered all you questions.
kmaherali
Posts: 25107
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:01 pm

Nerointoxiacants as a means of contemplating God.

Post by kmaherali »

YAM,

I would like to share my thoughts on the issue of nerointoxiacants being used as a means of contemplating God. I am not sure how they can help towards that purpose. The normal perception is a function of the mind interacting with the brain. The nerointoxiacants would effect the chemistry of the brain and in turn would change the perception of reality. I am wondering how can this assist somebody in God realization or towards the understanding of reality. All it can do to him is to make him aware and perhaps give the first hand verification that experience of reality is a subjective issue and that it depends upon the chemistry of the brain as well as pre conceived notions of reality in our consciousness.

Some people get these experiences of the subjective nature of reality in meditation as sounds of music being heard without an actual musical instrument or the experience of intense light without any apparent source. Pir Sadardin in his Ginan: "Sakhee Mahapad Keri Vaat Koi k Janne" which can be referenced in the Ginan Section of this site, alludes to these experiences, but then he goes on to say that the actual destiny is even higher and that these extra sensory experiences are only "toys" and nothing more. The main objective is even higher.

As pointed out by Aleem, the notion of "Ibaadat" in our Tariqah is more integral or comprehensive and meditation is only a facet of it. It has to be accompanied by acts of purification and the quest for knowledge and wisdom. Any profound insights or Gnosis that one may attain in this quest are accompanied by constant, enduring and steady experience of elevation, joy and peace as opposed to a series of temporary fluctuations and excitations of sensations or modes of perception.
mica
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:53 am

Post by mica »

Ya Ali Madad,

Great explanations Alim and kmaherali. Alim, your argument strongly shows why alcohol and gambling are wrong.

However in reference to psychedelics, I found a couple of comments that were enlightening:

“With bangi, once you stop, you don’t lose any progress you made. Instead you incorporate into you mind the experiences you have in bandgi. Imagine both the psychedelic and the Ismaili going to the same place. The Ismaili walks there, while the psychedelic flies over, getting glimpses of the place as he flies by.”

“the notion of "Ibaadat" in our Tariqah is more integral and meditation is only a facet of it. It has to be accompanied by acts of purification and the quest for knowledge and wisdom. Any profound insights or Gnosis that one may attain in this quest are accompanied by constant, enduring and steady experience of elevation, joy and peace as opposed to a series of temporary fluctuations and excitations of sensations or modes of perception.”

Thank you
ayazm
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:39 pm

Post by ayazm »

To a certain extent, I disagree that psychedelics take you to a higher level for a certain period of time, and then as the effects of the psychedelic itself wears away, so does the expierence and the knowledge attained from the psychedelic journey.

During deep meditiation, as many Bhuddists have claimed, an altered state of conscienousness is achieved, and is much like a psychedelic expierence (particularly psyilocybin containing mushrooms). However, once they begin to interact around their surroundings and begin to step out of meditation, the altered state disintegrates, but the knowledge attained from their expierence is kept.

I do strongly agree that through natural meditation, one would be much more enlightened and further capable in their spirituality than a psychonaut who only achieves higher levels of conscienousness through the use of other substances.

Terence Mckenna was a great advocate of psychedelics, especially mushrooms. He believed that humans advanced because of the use of these substances thousands of years ago. Though I don't remember much about his theories and and how he properly supported them, I found it was quite intriguing and suggest that others interested in this subject research it. :)
kmaherali
Posts: 25107
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:01 pm

God Genes!

Post by kmaherali »

There is related debate going around in the scientific community about whether religiousity or propensity towards religious belief is linked to genetic make up. Obviously the religious establishments have criticised the findings as one would expect. The following is an article from the recent issue of Calgary Herald on this issue.


Church-goers have no faith in 'god gene' study

Elizabeth Day
The Telegraph

Religious belief is determined by a person's genetic makeup rather than by any divine intervention, according to a study.

After comparing more than 2,000 DNA samples, an American molecular geneticist has concluded that a person's capacity to believe in God is linked to brain chemicals.

His findings have been criticized by leading clerics, who challenge the existence of a "god gene'' and say the research undermines a fundamental tenet of faith -- that spiritual enlightenment is achieved through divine transformation rather than the brain's electrical impulses.

Dr. Dean Hamer, director of the Gene Structure and Regulation Unit at the U.S. National Cancer Institute, asked volunteers 226 questions to determine how spiritually connected they felt to the universe.
The higher their score, the greater a person's ability to believe in a greater spiritual force and, Hamer found, the more likely they were to share the gene VMAT2.

Studies on twins showed that those with this gene, a vesicular monoamine transporter that regulates the flow of mood-altering chemicals in the brain, were more likely to develop a spiritual belief.

Growing up in a religious environment was said to have little effect on belief.

Hamer, who in 1993 claimed to have identified a DNA sequence linked to male homosexuality, said the existence of the "god gene'' explains why some people have more aptitude for spirituality than others.

"Buddha, Muhammad and Jesus all shared a series of mystical experiences or alterations in consciousness and thus probably carried the gene,'' he said.

"This means that the tendency to be spiritual is part of genetic makeup. This is not a thing that is strictly handed down from parents to children. It could skip a generation -- it's like intelligence.''

His findings were greeted skeptically by many in the religious establishment.

"The idea of a god gene goes against all my personal theological convictions," said Rev. John Polkinghorne, a Canon Theologian at Liverpool Cathedral. "You can't cut faith down to the lowest common denominator of genetic survival."
shamsu
Posts: 644
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:32 am

This is great

Post by shamsu »

If this is true it makes our faith which is based upon the direct descendent of Prophet Mohammed the most valid scientifically speaking.

The fact that it was set up like this thousands of years ago shows a depth of Insight which in itself is proof of its validity.

Well I am off to research VMAT2

Thank You K

Shams
shamsu
Posts: 644
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:32 am

Why substance use goes against spirituality

Post by shamsu »

I am not sure if this is definitive but I am still looking

Loss of striatal vesicular monoamine transporter protein (VMAT2) in human cocaine users
by
Little KY, Krolewski DM, Zhang L, Cassin BJ.
Department of Psychiatry,
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI, USA.
kylittle@umich.edu
Am J Psychiatry 2003 Jan;160(1):47-55

ABSTRACT
OBJECTIVE: The hypothesis that human cocaine users lose vesicular monoamine transporter (VMAT2) protein was tested in striatal samples from cocaine users and age-, sex-, and postmortem interval-matched comparison subjects. METHOD: Striatal samples were retrieved at autopsy; immunoblot assays were then performed by using a highly specific VMAT2 antibody. Striatal radioligand binding to VMAT2 was assessed with dihydrotetrabenazine ([(3)H]DTBZ) and dopamine levels employing high-performance liquid chromatography. RESULTS: Cocaine users displayed a marked reduction in VMAT2 immunoreactivity as well as reduced [(3)H]DTBZ binding and dopamine levels. It did not appear that the reduction in VMAT2 immunoreactivity was related to ethanol use, but dopamine levels were lower in subjects with only ethanol diagnoses. Subjects suffering from cocaine-induced mood disorders displayed a greater loss of VMAT2 immunoreactivity that approached significance. CONCLUSIONS: Human cocaine users lose VMAT2 protein, which might reflect damage to striatal dopamine fibers. These neuronal changes could play a role in causing disordered mood and motivational processes in more severely dependent patients.
unnalhaq
Posts: 352
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:20 pm

Mind Altering Substances

Post by unnalhaq »

You guys talk a big talk about Rumi...Have you read is poems??? 80% of his poems are about HASHISH and/or of feeling or euphoria from it. Don’t ask me for examples…As some one explained to me that it is hard for a frog (khoja-person) that lives in a well (the whole life) to know about the rest of the world.
kmaherali
Posts: 25107
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:01 pm

Post by kmaherali »

The Push for Legal Marijuana Spreads

Support for making marijuana legal is increasing around the world, and that is a good thing. Earlier this week, the Mexican Supreme Court opened the door to legalizing the drug by giving four plaintiffs the right to grow cannabis for personal use.

In Canada, the newly sworn in prime minister, Justin Trudeau, has said he intends to change the law so people can use the drug recreationally; medicinal use is already legal in that country. And in the United States, Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, who is seeking the Democratic nomination for president, recently introduced a bill that would let states decide if they want to make the drug legal without worrying about violating federal law.

Laws banning the growing, distribution and possession of marijuana have caused tremendous damage to society, with billions spent on imprisoning people for violating pointlessly harsh laws. Yet research shows that marijuana is far less harmful than alcohol and tobacco, and can be used to treat medical conditions like chronic pain.

The Mexican Supreme Court’s ruling, which applies only to the four plaintiffs seeking a right to grow marijuana, does not strike down the country’s marijuana laws. But it will open the way to more legal challenges and put pressure on President Enrique Peña Nieto and the Mexican Congress to change the law, which has helped to fuel drug-related crime in the country.

Prohibition in Mexico and elsewhere in the Americas will also become harder to maintain if California voters legalize recreational use of marijuana. Activists there are seeking to put legalization initiatives on the 2016 ballot. California was the first state to allow medicinal use of the drug in 1996, and it is a big market for illegal Mexican cannabis. It would make little sense for Mexico to spend countless millions a year in drug enforcement to ban a substance that is legal and regulated across its northern border all the way up the western coast to Canada. Oregon and Washington have already legalized the drug, as have Colorado, Alaska and the District of Columbia.

Some proponents of keeping prohibition in place might be encouraged by the defeat of an Ohio legalization initiative on Tuesday. But voters did the right thing by rejecting that measure because it would have granted a monopoly over the growing and sale of legal marijuana to a small group of investors. Even the acting administrator of the Drug Enforcement Administration, Chuck Rosenberg, who opposes legalization, described that ballot measure as an “anomaly.” (Mr. Rosenberg also said marijuana was “harmful and dangerous” but he acknowledged that other dangerous substances are “perfectly legal.”)

What’s needed now is responsible leadership from President Obama and Congress. They ought to seriously consider the kind of legislation Mr. Sanders has proposed. His bill would remove marijuana, or “marihuana” as it is called in federal law, from Schedule I of the Controlled Substances Act, which is meant for drugs that have a high potential for abuse and no medical use.

This change would allow states to decide if they want to make the drug legal and how to regulate it without being limited by federal law. Mr. Sanders’s bill would also make it illegal to transport the drug across state lines. If Congress is unwilling to act, Mr. Obama should move on his own by ordering the attorney general to request a study by the secretary of health and human services, which would be needed if the administration is to remove the drug from Schedule I on its own.

A growing group of activists, judges and lawmakers is showing the world a path to more sensible drug policies. Mr. Obama and Congress should join them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/06/opini ... ef=opinion
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