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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Fatimid literature vs Ginanic literature
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Fatimid literature vs Ginanic literature

 
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mazharshah



Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:50 am    Post subject: Fatimid literature vs Ginanic literature Reply with quote

There is contradiction between Ginanic literature and doctrine of Ismailism in Fatimid period. The basic doctrine of Ismailism from beginning till today and for future should be same.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5939

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no contradiction at all. The approaches are different. Truth has many facets and the Tapestry of Ismailism is very rich.

I see in each and every post of your attempt to divide the Ismailis. Maybe you should consider joining one of the Anti Ismaili web sites and discussion groups, there are many on FB that would welcome this kind of postings.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19777

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The context of the Fatimid litereature was different than that of the Ginanic literature. The Fatimid literature was geared or projected towards the Umma and hence was a zaheri exposition of our thought, whereas the Ginanic literature was tragettted towards the Jamat and hence a batini exposition.

Hence the exposition will be different.

Just as the constitution today projects the Imam as the inheritor of the Prophet, which is different than the idea of the Imam as the Mazhar of God according to the Paris Conference document for the Jamat.

However the essence is the recognition of the Imam in whatever manner it is articulated. There is no difference about that.
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mazharshah



Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
The context of the Fatimid litereature was different than that of the Ginanic literature. The Fatimid literature was geared or projected towards the Umma and hence was a zaheri exposition of our thought, whereas the Ginanic literature was tragettted towards the Jamat and hence a batini exposition.

Hence the exposition will be different.

Just as the constitution today projects the Imam as the inheritor of the Prophet, which is different than the idea of the Imam as the Mazhar of God according to the Paris Conference document for the Jamat.

However the essence is the recognition of the Imam in whatever manner it is articulated. There is no difference about that.



Did Imam ever said that Fatimid literature is not applicable in to days environment and follow only Ginanic literature? Was Noor of Imam Muiz different than Shah Karim? I don not buy your assertion that ginanic literature is full of batiniyat and Fatimid Literature was without touch of batiniyat. In my opinion Preamble is Farman signed by Hazar Imam.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19777

PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazharshah wrote:
Did Imam ever said that Fatimid literature is not applicable in to days environment and follow only Ginanic literature? Was Noor of Imam Muiz different than Shah Karim? I don not buy your assertion that ginanic literature is full of batiniyat and Fatimid Literature was without touch of batiniyat. In my opinion Preamble is Farman signed by Hazar Imam.
I have never implied that the Fatimid literature is not applicable today. There is a great deal of scholarly work being done at the IIS on the Fatimid period. I have never implied that we should only follow Ginanic literature.

I have never implied that the Fatimid literature does not contain the batini aspects of our Faith. You just need to read the Qasidas of Nasir Khusraw about him calling Imam the Hujjat or the Mazhar. There is a lot of batini aspects in the Qasidas.

What I said was the context of the Fatimid was zaheri in the sense that the Imams were known widely as the Caliph - the inheritor of the Prophet. Hence the Fatimid literature was addressing that dimension.
The Ginanic context was the context of the relationship between murids and the Murshid - the batini context with no exposure outside the Jamat.

The Noor of the Imamat is the same, there is no difference between one Imam and the other. However the contexts in which the Noor operates varies between Imams and even for one particular Imam.

Hence what the Imam says in the constitution which is accessible to the public at large will be different than what he says in his Farmans to his murids. Just as the teacher will say different things to a grade 1 student and a grade 5 student. The same mind, but different audiences.

MHI signs many documents, that does not make them Farmans. Farmans are guidance or commands to the murids which are not accessible to others. Constitution is accessible and applicable to others who are engaged in the institutional work.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali madad.
I have question for members.if a person wishes to have qualitative life for his or her family.
Would it opt for example to graduate from nalanda university in Sanskrit language and sylaabus that is 1000 year old OR graduate from Harvard with current syallabus ????.
My absolute view is:
Narrow vision of Religion is looking or going backward and broad n inner look as FAITH is looking forward n moving upwards
Admin must DRAW A LINE how much crap it wishes in it's site?
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mazharshah



Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:
Ya Ali madad.
I have question for members.if a person wishes to have qualitative life for his or her family.
Would it opt for example to graduate from nalanda university in Sanskrit language and sylaabus that is 1000 year old OR graduate from Harvard with current syallabus ????.
My absolute view is:
Narrow vision of Religion is looking or going backward and broad n inner look as FAITH is looking forward n moving upwards
Admin must DRAW A LINE how much crap it wishes in it's site?



Ismaili faith was same 1000 years back as it is today and it is not crap.
The syllabus of Sanskrit of that university is still valuable because there is vast knowledge in Sanskrit.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5939

PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazharshah wrote:

Ismaili faith was same 1000 years back as it is today


This is correct. The faith does not change, its understanding changes, its practices changes but the Faith remain. A thousand years ago, Ismailism was based on love for the Imam, today Ismailism is based on Love for the Imam. The Noor that guided us a thousand years ago is the same Noor that will guide us in a thousand years.


Last edited by Admin on Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali madad:
At least the living creature diffreanceate between useless data that is religious rituals of the past n inspiration of faith material of current time.
Ismailis faith is there from 2000 years with sure affirmation of khutba e bayan of Hz ALI.
IMAAN has NOT CHANGED on ALI may have become stronger now,but ritual of religion
That is timings & content of prayers,fasting,hajj,greater role of intellect n service to mankind has gone to absolute,radical n minor changes from 1370 years.IT HAS CHANGED FOR GOOD.
Religion that does evolve with the time disintregates n has a slow death.
500 year 100% of the population was assumed religious now it was 63% in year 2014 n is 2065 it can go down to 25-40% at the most.currently it is going down by 2% yearly from last 12 years.
As educated generation will throw out religious syllabus of past era.ONLY ISMAILIS ON EARTH WILL HAVE IF ANY CURRENT SYLLABUS BY IMAM OF TIME THEN.
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mazharshah



Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:
Ya Ali madad:
500 year 100% of the population was assumed religious now it was 63% in year 2014 n is 2065 it can go down to 25-40% at the most.currently it is going down by 2% yearly from last 12 years.
As educated generation will throw out religious syllabus of past era.ONLY ISMAILIS ON EARTH WILL HAVE IF ANY CURRENT SYLLABUS BY IMAM OF TIME THEN.


Your calculation may be right, lately thousands of Ismailis have left our Tariqa,
mostly have become sunnis, rest adopted Hinduism and some became christens. Go through the current syllabus of RC's recommended by Imam is different than what you and your parents were taught in night schools.
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mazharshah



Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:
Ya Ali madad:
At least the living creature diffreanceate between useless data that is religious rituals of the past n inspiration of faith material of current time.
Ismailis faith is there from 2000 years with sure affirmation of khutba e bayan of Hz ALI.
IMAAN has NOT CHANGED on ALI may have become stronger now,but ritual of religion
That is timings & content of prayers,fasting,hajj,greater role of intellect n service to mankind has gone to absolute,radical n minor changes from 1370 years.IT HAS CHANGED FOR GOOD.
Religion that does evolve with the time disintregates n has a slow death.
500 year 100% of the population was assumed religious now it was 63% in year 2014 n is 2065 it can go down to 25-40% at the most.currently it is going down by 2% yearly from last 12 years.
As educated generation will throw out religious syllabus of past era.ONLY ISMAILIS ON EARTH WILL HAVE IF ANY CURRENT SYLLABUS BY IMAM OF TIME THEN.


Technically Ismailism was started after Imam Ja'far Sadiq and not 2000 years back.
Can you tell me when Khutba e Bayan was written and adopted. Who compiled it and in what year. Let me see your scholarship and research.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad.

MHI has mentioned out tradition from 2000 years.

True followers of Jesus then who saw Jesus spiritual father (not as physical) and name of father as Eli in Hebrew pronounced as Ali.
These were satpanthi then were also living in the past even under lord Krishna and others.

The word Ismaili was given to group of followers than from A imams name later. Mixing academics with faith will damage this forum ,which some realize .
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5939

PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as historians are concerned, they would say the name Ismailis came after Imam Ismail though the descendant of Ismail (the son of Prophet Ebrahim and brother of Isaak) were also called Ismailis in old Latin and olf French manuscripts.

For us Ismailis, we generally refer by the name "ismailis" to the followers of our Imams, be they pre-Ali Imams or post Ali Imams. it is just a matter of vocabulary. Some would still call us satpanthis or those who are on Sirat ul Mustaqueem. it is just a matter of vocabulary.
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mazharshah



Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazharshah wrote:
nuseri wrote:
Ya Ali madad:
At least the living creature diffreanceate between useless data that is religious rituals of the past n inspiration of faith material of current time.
Ismailis faith is there from 2000 years with sure affirmation of khutba e bayan of Hz ALI.
IMAAN has NOT CHANGED on ALI may have become stronger now,but ritual of religion
That is timings & content of prayers,fasting,hajj,greater role of intellect n service to mankind has gone to absolute,radical n minor changes from 1370 years.IT HAS CHANGED FOR GOOD.
Religion that does evolve with the time disintregates n has a slow death.
500 year 100% of the population was assumed religious now it was 63% in year 2014 n is 2065 it can go down to 25-40% at the most.currently it is going down by 2% yearly from last 12 years.
As educated generation will throw out religious syllabus of past era.ONLY ISMAILIS ON EARTH WILL HAVE IF ANY CURRENT SYLLABUS BY IMAM OF TIME THEN.


Technically Ismailism was started after Imam Ja'far Sadiq and not 2000 years back.
Can you tell me when Khutba e Bayan was written and adopted. Who compiled it and in what year. Let me see your scholarship and research.



Nuseri,

Still waiting for reply from your side; Who compiled Khutba e Bayan and in what year?
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad:
I am not into academics of Religion nor into research.Some historian may tell that or you Google it.
For the word Allah is enough to know status of Ali.
most member are coming to know of your ignorance and cunningness of mind.
I studied your xxxxxx soul on day one of your entry.
It is in very sorry state
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mazharshah



Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:
Ya Ali Madad:
I am not into academics of Religion nor into research.Some historian may tell that or you Google it.
For the word Allah is enough to know status of Ali.
most member are coming to know of your ignorance and cunningness of mind.
I studied your xxxxxx soul on day one of your entry.
It is in very sorry state



It is easy to comment or issue a statement; but research work is time consuming and pains taking, I usually mention name of book and page numbers but there is nothing that kind of information from your side.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali madad.
There is locus standi in legal court of law of printed material of people no longer living.
I assume you must be hearing hissing sound from inside your body.
Reply to question of future,which over 18 members have already read it.Past material is for escapistn n bankruptcy of own mibd n truth of presence in what we live n future impact impact of it stamp a person as wise n intellect.
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mazharshah



Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:
Ya Ali Madad:
I am not into academics of Religion nor into research.Some historian may tell that or you Google it.
For the word Allah is enough to know status of Ali.
most member are coming to know of your ignorance and cunningness of mind.
I studied your xxxxxx soul on day one of your entry.
It is in very sorry state



Ali is attribute name of Allah mentioned in Quran.
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