Kmaherali wrote."God is not restricted in the nature of forms he can assume to undertake whatever he needs to do. It depends upon the needs of the time. During the time of Pahelaaj he assumed the form of Narsinh (Man-Lion) to destroy the devil Harnakas. Similarly he assumed the forms of a fish, boar, tortoise etc. According to the Qur'an Majeed, he assumed the form of a tree to communicate to Moses!"
Reply to Kmaherali,
Km, in one of your posts, you wrote that God is perfect and the word change can not be used for Him. If God takes different forms, it means He keeps changing according to time. But notion of time and space can not apply on Him, as Mowla Ali said He is beyond comprehension. So what kind of God you are talking about. Iblis/Shaitan/ Kalingo what ever name is creation of God. I imagine this negative force is so powerful that God has to take birth, grow from childhood to young man to destroy that negative force He created Himself. As you mentioned He came as Narseinh and kill Harnakas. He should have sent some His Agent Force to kill that devil. Regarding Moses and tree affair, tree was modem through which God spoke to Moses and tree it self was not God.
Regarding Kali and Durga, you mentioned only Positive characters and neglected the negative characters of Kali and Durga. Again my question stays where it was,"Is HI holy soul of Shiva and possess all Shiva's characters Positive as well as negative?"
Regarding Daet Kalingo, as I understand is in every individual and that is Nafs e Amarah. With guidance and blessing of Imam we have to control that negative force.
no mention of shiva in ginans.
Ya Ali Madad:
What has the word 'shiva' to do with ismailism of today?
All of us would be better off if we try to understand the farmans of MHI OF current times with agility rather than search unwarranted data on shiva,tusi, greek mythology,papers of leaders.
what ALI says is 100% true n pure.
To MAZHAR:(AASTIN KA SAAP).
PLEASE read khutba e bahyan(declaration) of z Ali ten times.
as you quoted with confidence n belief from najal Balagha.if assume as saunch n faithful agree to those line.
he has mentioned 'He can destroy the creations if he wishes to"
This give the attribute of shiva as detroyer to god in hinduism belief of god as well as creator n sustain er.
please let the forum know that you affirm to every word of that declaration
as ALI claiming himself as GOd as creator.
all Ismailis are Ibn ul waqt ,follower of Imam of the time also confirm n believe that declaration.
What has the word 'shiva' to do with ismailism of today?
All of us would be better off if we try to understand the farmans of MHI OF current times with agility rather than search unwarranted data on shiva,tusi, greek mythology,papers of leaders.
what ALI says is 100% true n pure.
To MAZHAR:(AASTIN KA SAAP).
PLEASE read khutba e bahyan(declaration) of z Ali ten times.
as you quoted with confidence n belief from najal Balagha.if assume as saunch n faithful agree to those line.
he has mentioned 'He can destroy the creations if he wishes to"
This give the attribute of shiva as detroyer to god in hinduism belief of god as well as creator n sustain er.
please let the forum know that you affirm to every word of that declaration
as ALI claiming himself as GOd as creator.
all Ismailis are Ibn ul waqt ,follower of Imam of the time also confirm n believe that declaration.
The essence of God does not change but his manifestation can change according to the needs of the context. If one considers the analogy of the a man with clothes, the naked body does not change but the clothes can change. Here clothes can mean any physical form including trees and animals. God felt it most appropriate to assume the form of Narsihn in his absolute wisdom. There is a reason for manifesting as Narsinh, I will post it later when I have the exact details. The tree was the manifestation of God.mazhar wrote: Km, in one of your posts, you wrote that God is perfect and the word change can not be used for Him. If God takes different forms, it means He keeps changing according to time. But notion of time and space can not apply on Him, as Mowla Ali said He is beyond comprehension. So what kind of God you are talking about. Iblis/Shaitan/ Kalingo what ever name is creation of God. I imagine this negative force is so powerful that God has to take birth, grow from childhood to young man to destroy that negative force He created Himself. As you mentioned He came as Narseinh and kill Harnakas. He should have sent some His Agent Force to kill that devil. Regarding Moses and tree affair, tree was modem through which God spoke to Moses and tree it self was not God..
Yes the Imam can appear with negative qualities such asa destroyer. When Lord Krishna was a boy he used to plunder cheese/butter of the gopees. The reason being to remove the greed of the gopees!mazhar wrote: Regarding Kali and Durga, you mentioned only Positive characters and neglected the negative characters of Kali and Durga. Again my question stays where it was,"Is HI holy soul of Shiva and possess all Shiva's characters Positive as well as negative?".
I agree!mazhar wrote: Regarding Daet Kalingo, as I understand is in every individual and that is Nafs e Amarah. With guidance and blessing of Imam we have to control that negative force.
Ismailism is not only about Ali Allah. There is a lot of knowledge about our traditions, our history, our philosophy that we need to know. If Farmans were enough why do we recite the Ginans? Why did MHI create the IIS and publish books?nuseri wrote: All of us would be better off if we try to understand the farmans of MHI OF current times with agility rather than search unwarranted data on shiva,tusi, greek mythology,papers of leaders.
what ALI says is 100% true n pure.
Yes, MSMS said Ismailis are IBNUL WAQT, then follow the Farman of the present Imam, who said in Farman ALLIULLAH means ALI IS FROM ALLAH.nuseri wrote:Ya Ali Madad:
What has the word 'shiva' to do with ismailism of today?
All of us would be better off if we try to understand the farmans of MHI OF current times with agility rather than search unwarranted data on shiva,tusi, greek mythology,papers of leaders.
what ALI says is 100% true n pure.
To MAZHAR:(AASTIN KA SAAP).
PLEASE read khutba e bahyan(declaration) of z Ali ten times.
as you quoted with confidence n belief from najal Balagha.if assume as saunch n faithful agree to those line.
he has mentioned 'He can destroy the creations if he wishes to"
To Nuseri ( bander ki dum )
You have to apologize Ismaili community because in one of your posts you mentioned Ismailis are monkeys because they recite ALIULLAH in Du'a.
all Ismailis are Ibn ul waqt ,follower of Imam of the time also confirm n believe that declaration.
Devil Harnakans had done a lot of Ibadat in his previous lives, the result of which the Imam granted him 'kol' - promise of the fulfilment of his wishes. Harnakan demanded that he should not be killed by the following means (elements or conditions): form iron or wood (any weapon), in dryness or greenness, by male or female. during day or night, indoors or outdoors, by the sky, earth, fire, water, or animal. In other words he sought immortality. The Lord granted his wishes.kmaherali wrote: There is a reason for manifesting as Narsinh, I will post it later when I have the exact details.
Due to this Harnakans became arrogant and began to cause trouble to the momins including his son Pahelaaj. The devil demanded his son not to pray but the son refused. For that he decided to kill him. He asked that Pahelaaj be placed next to a mad elephant. But the elephant prostrated in front of Pahelaajand made him sit on his back. Then the king asked that his son be rolled down a mountain. At this juncture the Almight God saved him miraculously. Pahelaaj was also saved from a big tree. This raged the Devil so much that he told Pahelaaj to embrace a very hot pillar saying: "Let us see now how your God will save you from this. Where is he now?"
Pahelaaj boldly told the Devil: "You are stupid, don't you see my God Narsinh in the pillar? Although at first Pahelaaj was nervous, when he saw living ants moving on the heated pillar, he became very confident. He remembered the Holy Name and the pillar immediately burst apart - from where the Lord Narsihinh appeared in the form of "Man and Lion".
Lord Narshinh got hold of the Devil Harnakans and killed him with his claws. He killed him when it was neither day or night ( at dawn or dusk) and at the centre of a door, neither indooors not outdoors, thus keeping His word.
There is a Ginan relating to this incident which can be accessed at:
Hojire bhaai Pahelaaj raaja ni maata e kunvar
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3876
To Nuseri ( Bunder ki dum ),nuseri wrote:YA ALI MADAD:
Has the aastin ka saap replied to declarion of ALI of who he is from Najal balaga which he has also quote Hz ALI is great belief n confidence from it?
All his posting should be deleted as a non ismaili serpent.
First you have to apologize and say sorry to Ismaili community, because in one of your posts you called them monkeys, because they recite ALIULLAH in Du'a given by Imam. I wandered Admin, did not took notice of that post.
Mazhar I am still waiting for your reference on where did our Imam of the Ismailis said Aliyullah means Ali comes from Allah. if you do not have any Farman to show, state so now!
In Dua I receite Rassulillah and Aliyulah and they means Prophet of Allah and Ali (Highest) of Allah
I am waiting for the farman.
In Dua I receite Rassulillah and Aliyulah and they means Prophet of Allah and Ali (Highest) of Allah
I am waiting for the farman.
Last edited by Admin on Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To Admins,Admin wrote:mazhar wrote: then follow the Farman of the present Imam, who said in Farman ALLIULLAH means ALI IS FROM ALLAH.
If you have any evidence Hazar Imam has made a farman saying "Alliyullah means Ali is from Allah", post it in this Forum. Failure to do this within a week, I will delete your account.
With above ref. I already posted the Farman in one of my posts, but again for your satisfaction I am quoting this Farman for you including readers of this post.
Mowlana Hazar Imam said," Yes, Firman on that was very clear from my grandfather. It was not Aly Allah, it was Aly-ullah, which has different meaning, which means that Aly is from Allah. Don't confuse it. This means that the spirit of Aly and the Noor of Aly is from Allah, and this is the belief which the jamat has; this is the true conception of Noor."
Karachi - 1964.
I have typed the exact wordings. You are resourceful, can verify with ITREB karachi.
Nagib, do not delete this post. Thanx again for your threat or warning what ever you call it.[/b]
Just only one farmans!!! that's it!!Karachi - 1964.
I have typed the exact wordings. You are resourceful, can verify with ITREB karachi.
What about those dozens farmans of Imam Hasan Ali Shah, Imam Ali Shah and Mowlana Sultan Mohammad shah respectively in which farmans they told i.e ALI IS THE ALLAH!!?? they didn't told "Ali is from Allah" but they clearly uttered by their holy mouth that "Ali is the Allah"!. what is your interpretation on those farmans?
Another issue is that farmans of 47th imam have a differnt philosophy. Ginans also have a different esoteric philosophy. Therefore if the farman is true than we are moving away from expressing our esoteric philosophy , historically the precedent is after Imam Hasan 2 nd, Imam Ala Mohammad did reinstate sharia thereby hiding the esoteric aspects of Ismailism.tret wrote:I have to confirm that, but that has always been my understanding!fayaz006 wrote:Gents can somebody confirm what Mazhar wrote? Because if that is the case than the farman changes several things
We as Jama'at of the Imam are to follow the current Imam's Farmaan, if different from previous Farameen, first of all.fayaz006 wrote:
Another issue is that farmans of 47th imam have a differnt philosophy. Ginans also have a different esoteric philosophy. Therefore if the farman is true than we are moving away from expressing our esoteric philosophy , historically the precedent is after Imam Hasan 2 nd, Imam Ala Mohammad did reinstate sharia thereby hiding the esoteric aspects of Ismailism.
You have to keep in mind, that Farameen of 47, 48 and ginans have had very specific context, where Imamate was in Da'wah.
Kindly tell us how we are moving away from esoteric philosophy of our tariqa?
Is 'Ali Allah' our esoteric philosophy?
Lastly, let's say that what you say is correct, and Imam wanted to 'hide' esoteric aspect of our tariqa, then who are we to expose them???
Are we not supposed to follow what Imam orders us???
I agree with your assertion of following current imam howvere i mentioned that we are moving away from expressing the esoteric tradition openly not that the esoteric traditionn is changing. We have several farmans of 48th and 47th Imam, including the Sermon of Hazrat Ali as well as Ginans that pretty well set our esoteric philosophytret wrote:We as Jama'at of the Imam are to follow the current Imam's Farmaan, if different from previous Farameen, first of all.fayaz006 wrote:
Another issue is that farmans of 47th imam have a differnt philosophy. Ginans also have a different esoteric philosophy. Therefore if the farman is true than we are moving away from expressing our esoteric philosophy , historically the precedent is after Imam Hasan 2 nd, Imam Ala Mohammad did reinstate sharia thereby hiding the esoteric aspects of Ismailism.
You have to keep in mind, that Farameen of 47, 48 and ginans have had very specific context, where Imamate was in Da'wah.
Kindly tell us how we are moving away from esoteric philosophy of our tariqa?
Is 'Ali Allah' our esoteric philosophy?
Lastly, let's say that what you say is correct, and Imam wanted to 'hide' esoteric of our tariqa, then who are we to expose them???
Are we not supposed to follow what Imam orders us???
there is no farman by Imam Ala muhammad reinstating the Sharia. This is only speculation by some historians. We have a farman of Imam Alazikrihi Salaam.fayaz006 wrote:historically the precedent is after Imam Hasan 2 nd, Imam Ala Mohammad did reinstate sharia thereby hiding the esoteric aspects of Ismailism.
the Farman has been followed up to now. if the Sharia was back by a Farman by imam Ala Muhammad, were is that Farman and ismailis would have obeyed it and you would be doing 5 Namaz and 30 Rozas which you still may be doing, unless you are an ismaili in a free country with a free intellectual mind.
Further more, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah has confirmed (Usul e Din farman) that Sharia and Haqiqat will NEVER meet. And he added that those who have sinked in the Shariah wil never understand his Farman.
Now ask yourself this question, in the year 1,900 did your forefather do the Namaz and the Roza? Only the faith of your forefathers will unable you to live in peace in this world and in the next.
So do I!, Being a long time Ismaili I know that if any old farmans over rides current imams or cancel it and supersedes with new farmans and clarify that after this farmans old farmans will be not valid then its become invalid other then that they are still valid; now back to "Ali is the Allah " farman is concern! no such kind actions has been taken or told us that the previous three Imams farmans are canceled hereafter so those farmans of Ismailis 46th, 47th and 48th Imams farmans still valid and still imply as it was before i.e. Ali Is the Allah., I have hard copy of that Farman.
Being as an Ismaili, we always obey Farman of the present Imam.
Mazhar, You have 5 more days to show the "Farman" you are claiming you have before I delete your account. if you can scan or take a digital copy and send to heritage@ismaili.net, I give you my word that I will post it here and will not delete your account. By this time should should know that I know the difference between genuine farman and edited versions...
Reply to Aghakhani,
Dear AK,
I understand yours and your like minded participants feelings. If some one says ALI is ALLAH, I personally do not mind, it is their faith. But that particular Farman is genuine, I have hard copy of that Farman.
if you have a reference in a printed Farman Book, give it but do not say something which is even not short of a lie.
You can also show it inside your post by posting the jpg on any web site and inserting in your post here.
Mazhar,mazhar wrote:Mowlana Hazar Imam said," Yes, Firman on that was very clear from my grandfather. It was not Aly Allah, it was Aly-ullah, which has different meaning, which means that Aly is from Allah. Don't confuse it. This means that the spirit of Aly and the Noor of Aly is from Allah, and this is the belief which the jamat has; this is the true conception of Noor."
Karachi - 1964.
I have typed the exact wordings. You are resourceful, can verify with ITREB karachi.
Nagib, do not delete this post. Thanx again for your threat or warning what ever you call it.[/b]
Why do you keep quoting this questionable Farman which has never been recited in JKs. We have [/b]printed and published Farmans of our present Imam which point to the Imam being illahi nass (God of mankind). Paris conference documents state that the Imam is the Mazhar of Allah. The Imam has also said at the IIS that he is the Mazhar-i-dhat-Allah.
When you know all this why do you keep mentioning the 1964 statement of the Imam? This is intellectual dishonesty. There is no intention to understand.
Hello KMkmaherali wrote:Fayaz,fayaz006 wrote:Gents can somebody confirm what Mazhar wrote? Because if that is the case than the farman changes several things
Don't you read the posts. There have been printed and published farmans of the present Imam about Ali is Allah!
Ill be honest i have not read those posts could you post a link? Also Mazhar's credibility was questioned a while back which is why i asked for somebody to confirm what he posted, however trusted members of this website have not confirmed what he posted. I am desperately hoping that Mazhar has not fallen enough to have invented farmans.
Admin this is valid point which i didnot consider. If Imam Ala Mohammad wanted sharia to be reinstated for purposes other than taqyia people in Salamiya, Syria would be fasting till this day. I also agree with what you have posted about MSMS.Admin wrote:there is no farman by Imam Ala muhammad reinstating the Sharia. This is only speculation by some historians. We have a farman of Imam Alazikrihi Salaam.fayaz006 wrote:historically the precedent is after Imam Hasan 2 nd, Imam Ala Mohammad did reinstate sharia thereby hiding the esoteric aspects of Ismailism.
the Farman has been followed up to now. if the Sharia was back by a Farman by imam Ala Muhammad, were is that Farman and ismailis would have obeyed it and you would be doing 5 Namaz and 30 Rozas which you still may be doing, unless you are an ismaili in a free country with a free intellectual mind.
Further more, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah has confirmed (Usul e Din farman) that Sharia and Haqiqat will NEVER meet. And he added that those who have sinked in the Shariah wil never understand his Farman.
Now ask yourself this question, in the year 1,900 did your forefather do the Namaz and the Roza? Only the faith of your forefathers will unable you to live in peace in this world and in the next.
kmaherali wrote:Fayaz,fayaz006 wrote:Gents can somebody confirm what Mazhar wrote? Because if that is the case than the farman changes several things
Don't you read the posts. There have been printed and published farmans of the present Imam about Ali is Allah!
kmaherali -
don't get too excited!!
Keep in mind, being "Mazhar of Allah" [or even Mazhar-e-dhat-e-elahi" doesn't mean Imam is exactly Allah!
You can do your own research to find out exactly what Mazhar means. Most common and accepted meaning of Mazhar would be manifestation. So, the way you guys saying it, i.e. "Ali is Allah" is in no way inline with "Ali is the Manifestation of Allah".